Java Corrupted Saviors [Release 70b] [CSDev]

[Himnos]

I was trying to defeat Judgement breakless and I've come accross some weird behaviour, which I'm not sure is a bug or me misunderstanding some mechanics.

- First the amount of EE required to Despair seems wrong ?
Since Angels cost 150 EE per break to Judgement's 300 EE, my understanding is that the base Despair EE should be (700 + 600x2 + 1200) for a total of 3100 base EE, which my Level 4 Despair achievement should reduce to 1500 EE but the base cost for me was 2100 EE.

Notable, this amount would be off by 600 EE and my 2 angels came with MOR and INN pre-broken respectively (2 breaks each, 4 break total time 150EE each would total 600 EE) Maybe a it's a coincidence, since those should be the 2 free break each of them is allowed anyways...

- Second, breaking T4 DIG on each Angel I lost the ability to set their distortion plan (I had rampaged then broken the rampage on Union, but could still set the Distortion plan on her after this - this really seems linked to the T4 break.)

- Third, it seems like achieving punisher % required for T4 break on MOR and INN without actually breaking them still increase the EE cost of Despair as if it was a tier break (but does not render ineligible to Despair). Not sure if that is intended behavior.

I've included a save file that illustrates those behavior in case that helps. Loop 1-10 were on R55b and Loop 11-20 on R56d using the Suntorn Dawn roster in case that impacts anything.

I've also included my best attempt for fun, but I did not quite make it (2959 out of 3000 EE required). I'll probably attempt it again if it's confirmed that this is all intended behavior.

Thanks for the game ! It tickles the brain in a very satisfying way.

EDIT: fixed a typo "eligible" to "ineligible"

 

[Nobody032]

I was trying to defeat Judgement breakless and I've come accross some weird behaviour, which I'm not sure is a bug or me misunderstanding some mechanics.

- First the amount of EE required to Despair seems wrong ?
Since Angels cost 150 EE per break to Judgement's 300 EE, my understanding is that the base Despair EE should be (700 + 600x2 + 1200) for a total of 3100 base EE, which my Level 4 Despair achievement should reduce to 1500 EE but the base cost for me was 2100 EE.

Notable, this amount would be off by 600 EE and my 2 angels came with MOR and INN pre-broken respectively (2 breaks each, 4 break total time 150EE each would total 600 EE) Maybe a it's a coincidence, since those should be the 2 free break each of them is allowed anyways...

- Second, breaking T4 DIG on each Angel I lost the ability to set their distortion plan (I had rampaged then broken the rampage on Union, but could still set the Distortion plan on her after this - this really seems linked to the T4 break.)

- Third, it seems like achieving punisher % required for T4 break on MOR and INN without actually breaking them still increase the EE cost of Despair as if it was a tier break (but does not render eligible to Despair). Not sure if that is intended behavior.

I've included a save file that illustrates those behavior in case that helps. Loop 1-10 were on R55b and Loop 11-20 on R56d using the Suntorn Dawn roster in case that impacts anything.

I've also included my best attempt for fun, but I did not quite make it (2959 out of 3000 EE required). I'll probably attempt it again if it's confirmed that this is all intended behavior.

Thanks for the game ! It tickles the brain in a very satisfying way.

"I don't think you can defeat her breakless." Edit: You can defeat her breakless with Despair. My apologies for my ignorance. It's my defining trait.

Either way great attempt though. I can see why people like using Rampage undeads. 100 ee free cost deployment with 100% effectiveness sure is wild. Still wondering if other forsaken are even worth using over undeads. Also you made me realise the true use of all punishers , I never considered how useful some of the other punishers could be . Need to think about more than damage numbers I guess. Should have tried using a +Angst punisher for my negotiation on Judgement.

Btw I am assuming you used drain on day 19 for max effectiveness?

Don't know about why the despair cost is that way but breaking t4 dignity means you should be locked in despair unless your chosen are eligible for Rampage/Temptation. That might be why you couldn't set distortion. Unless I am mistaken setting despair on Judgement again should place all on despair.

Also is inferno pepper upgrade not supposed to decrease energy cost? Shouldn't all forsaken cost 50 ee ? Or does it not stack with Broken psychometer making it useless if used together?

 

[Himnos]

What if you wanted to defeat Judgement breakless but she said: "Resolve can't be damaged unless a T3 move has been used regardless of distortion."

I don't think you can defeat her breakless.

Either way great attempt though. I can see why people like using Rampage undeads. 100 ee free cost deployment with 100% effectiveness sure is wild. Still wondering if other forsaken are even worth using over undeads. Also you made me realise the true use of all punishers , I never considered how useful some of the other punishers could be . Need to think about more than damage numbers I guess. Should have tried using a +Angst punisher for my negotiation on Judgement.

Btw I am assuming you used drain on day 19 for max effectiveness?

Don't know about why the despair cost is that way but breaking t4 dignity means you should be locked in despair unless your chosen are eligible for Rampage/Temptation. That might be why you couldn't set distortion. Unless I am mistaken setting despair on Judgement again should place all on despair.

Also is inferno pepper upgrade not supposed to decrease energy cost? Shouldn't all forsaken cost 50 ee ? Or does it not stack with Broken psychometer making it useless if used together?

Honestly one of the reason I was attempting breakless to see if it would even work. That was not my initial game plan but when I got Demon's Food Cake a few loops before the fight I saw the opportunity to try. Assuming I managed it to reach the EE threshold but breakless blocked the win, I figured I could reload a few days before and just break anything on Judgement to complete the loop.

Rampage Undead with Inferno Pepper + upgrade worked really well for me this campaign:
- Rampage refund and Inferno Pepper are separate refund instances, so deploying for 10EE will have the rampage trait refund 9 while Inferno Pepper refunds 10 (with 10 items) giving a net gain of +9 before the Chosen even generate EE from breaks and downtime. Super useful against Devil/Devil/Angel or Devil/Angel/Angel.
- Fruit of Knowledge (Inferno Pepper upgrade) works the same as a 50% cost reduction, which means Rampage forsaken "see" your available EE as twice you actual EE. Somewhat amusing end of loop when you deploy for over 1000 effective EE, but really good early loop when you deploy for "4EE" (with 32% effectiveness) rather than 2EE (with 2% effectiveness)

As to if anything other than Undead is worth using... I'm not sure if that counts but I like Tempting the Angel partner of the (usually undead) Forsaken I use for Combat ? Perma-full Motivation and +10% damage is nice. Other than that, I've not yet tried to Tempt Devil for the stacking +5% damage (keeping them on Obedience training so they always remain over 40 Obedience) but it might be nice. What prevents me from really using any of them for battle is that the opportunity cost feels too high: with just Angel Achievement at level 2, every Angel or Devil Despair is +48 Evacuation requirement, or +48% extermination, and as Loops get higher, having those longer days really seem more profitable then the increase in combat power.

Honestly though, part of me is wondering if higher tier species are not made less attractive because the Trauma damage up on parasitize punisher is so strong, making low EE Forsaken very strong when that's where the EE cost reduce of Undead is the strongest. The utility of cost refund on UD rampage or infinite deploy on UD tempt then tips the scale even further.

Back to the save: I tried setting Depair off and on on Judgement, but Union would still not show to be on the Despair path. It's not that big a deal since in my experience you can Despair a Chosen in the final battle even if they are not on the plan, but that was behavior I thought was weird so I pointed it out just in case.

I was using Drain on Day 18 and 19, since the Drain "return" value is set on deploy (so deploy for 700EE on day 18, Drain to get 1400EE; deploy for 1450EE on day 19, Drain to get 2900EE) Sadly, FoK does not "double" the EE return of Drain: it is based on your actual Deploy value (but Broken Psychometer limits the expenditure to 100EE anyways.) I've not tested if FoK would reduce the return of Drain on a non-rampage "fixed cost" Forsaken, but if it does there might be a bit of anti-synergy there.

Broken Psychometer caps the final deploy value of Forsaken while FoK reduces the cost, which means a 300 base cost forsaken gets reduced to 150 (then capped to 100, so deploy for 100 cost in the end). While a 150 base cost would get reduced to 75EE cost and not interact with Broken Psychometer at all. Combining them is not useful for super high cost Forsaken, but in I've found that the fuctionnality of doubling the EE "available" for my Rampagers and reducing the cost of my other low cost Forsaken (making IP refund an even bigger portion of their cost, when not making them effectively free) was still worth the 50 Influence.

 

[Nobody032]

Honestly one of the reason I was attempting breakless to see if it would even work. That was not my initial game plan but when I got Demon's Food Cake a few loops before the fight I saw the opportunity to try. Assuming I managed it to reach the EE threshold but breakless blocked the win, I figured I could reload a few days before and just break anything on Judgement to complete the loop.

Rampage Undead with Inferno Pepper + upgrade worked really well for me this campaign:
- Rampage refund and Inferno Pepper are separate refund instances, so deploying for 10EE will have the rampage trait refund 9 while Inferno Pepper refunds 10 (with 10 items) giving a net gain of +9 before the Chosen even generate EE from breaks and downtime. Super useful against Devil/Devil/Angel or Devil/Angel/Angel.
- Fruit of Knowledge (Inferno Pepper upgrade) works the same as a 50% cost reduction, which means Rampage forsaken "see" your available EE as twice you actual EE. Somewhat amusing end of loop when you deploy for over 1000 effective EE, but really good early loop when you deploy for "4EE" (with 32% effectiveness) rather than 2EE (with 2% effectiveness)

As to if anything other than Undead is worth using... I'm not sure if that counts but I like Tempting the Angel partner of the (usually undead) Forsaken I use for Combat ? Perma-full Motivation and +10% damage is nice. Other than that, I've not yet tried to Tempt Devil for the stacking +5% damage (keeping them on Obedience training so they always remain over 40 Obedience) but it might be nice. What prevents me from really using any of them for battle is that the opportunity cost feels too high: with just Angel Achievement at level 2, every Angel or Devil Despair is +48 Evacuation requirement, or +48% extermination, and as Loops get higher, having those longer days really seem more profitable then the increase in combat power.

Honestly though, part of me is wondering if higher tier species are not made less attractive because the Trauma damage up on parasitize punisher is so strong, making low EE Forsaken very strong when that's where the EE cost reduce of Undead is the strongest. The utility of cost refund on UD rampage or infinite deploy on UD tempt then tips the scale even further.

Back to the save: I tried setting Depair off and on on Judgement, but Union would still not show to be on the Despair path. It's not that big a deal since in my experience you can Despair a Chosen in the final battle even if they are not on the plan, but that was behavior I thought was weird so I pointed it out just in case.

I was using Drain on Day 18 and 19, since the Drain "return" value is set on deploy (so deploy for 700EE on day 18, Drain to get 1400EE; deploy for 1450EE on day 19, Drain to get 2900EE) Sadly, FoK does not "double" the EE return of Drain: it is based on your actual Deploy value (but Broken Psychometer limits the expenditure to 100EE anyways.) I've not tested if FoK would reduce the return of Drain on a non-rampage "fixed cost" Forsaken, but if it does there might be a bit of anti-synergy there.

Broken Psychometer caps the final deploy value of Forsaken while FoK reduces the cost, which means a 300 base cost forsaken gets reduced to 150 (then capped to 100, so deploy for 100 cost in the end). While a 150 base cost would get reduced to 75EE cost and not interact with Broken Psychometer at all. Combining them is not useful for super high cost Forsaken, but in I've found that the fuctionnality of doubling the EE "available" for my Rampagers and reducing the cost of my other low cost Forsaken (making IP refund an even bigger portion of their cost, when not making them effectively free) was still worth the 50 Influence.

Oh yeah didn't think about the fact that the refund of pepper would be seperate and give extra energy, that's even more broken. Hey more reason to use undead forsaken. Angels making rampage viable also helps with this.

Also cements inevitability as the worst item in the game. I also hate it now because of how I was forced to pick inevitability because of city choices(Chosen I wanted was there). What's even worse is how pointless the upgrade for it is(Which I got as a choice, what a waste of upgrade potential) It deals single digit damage with the four basic actions(Without inevitability active).

Yeah I was talking more about combat roles. Undead low energy cost means they will benefit more from anything you can put on forsaken by yourself. Animalistic and Devil chosen are supposed to be more "combat" oriented but there really is not much incentive to use them(Especially Devils because they drain 10% motivation while don't give anything unique in return). Though an unfocused style rampage Angel might be viable especially with a new item upgrade which octuples damage dealt by unfocused style.
As for tempt devils that will be luck based if you get many devils throughout your loop then it may be viable. But pre broken chosen are way too common right now.

Other than day 18 and 19 drain , all I can think of is trying to maximize surround turns and retreating every day to potentially get more energy. Which I assume you already tried.

One thing I found though is that you can trigger megalomaniac on Judgement for that +50 energy and then break expo or inju t4 for triggering despair instead. That +50 energy from Megalomaniac is probably the reason why Judgements trait for it is the worst trait in the game.

As for FoK and psychometer, I was mainly focused on forsaken which are 100+ to deploy. I guess it was a stupid comparison though. I can be quite dumb sometimes

 

[Himnos]

Oh yeah didn't think about the fact that the refund of pepper would be seperate and give extra energy, that's even more broken. Hey more reason to use undead forsaken. Angels making rampage viable also helps with this.

Also cements inevitability as the worst item in the game. I also hate it now because of how I was forced to pick inevitability because of city choices(Chosen I wanted was there). What's even worse is how pointless the upgrade for it is(Which I got as a choice, what a waste of upgrade potential) It deals single digit damage with the four basic actions(Without inevitability active).

Yeah I was talking more about combat roles. Undead low energy cost means they will benefit more from anything you can put on forsaken by yourself. Animalistic and Devil chosen are supposed to be more "combat" oriented but there really is not much incentive to use them(Especially Devils because they drain 10% motivation while don't give anything unique in return). Though an unfocused style rampage Angel might be viable especially with a new item upgrade which octuples damage dealt by unfocused style.
As for tempt devils that will be luck based if you get many devils throughout your loop then it may be viable. But pre broken chosen are way too common right now.

Other than day 18 and 19 drain , all I can think of is trying to maximize surround turns and retreating every day to potentially get more energy. Which I assume you already tried. Either way I dont think despair can even be triggered without t3 break on Judgement .
One thing I found though is that you can trigger megalomaniac on Judgement for that +50 energy and then break expo or inju t4 for triggering despair instead. That +50 energy from Megalomaniac is probably the reason why Judgements trait for it is the worst trait in the game.

As for FoK and psychometer, I was mainly focused on forsaken which are 100+ to deploy. I guess it was a stupid comparison though. I can be quite dumb sometimes

Yeah this run was initially meant as a test on Inferno Pepper + UD Rampage. When I saw it worked this way, I just ran with it see how far I could get. Pleased with the result so far. If offered Soul Liquefaction (the invest EE item), I think you just become the Demon Lord of the Greater Sin of Investment Banking and corrupt the world through the power of compound interests (so, you know, regular Investment Banking.) I'm won't make a bold claim like "it's better than Tomorrow's Newspaper", but I've enjoyed it more, if that makes sense.

For Judgement Breakless Despair, there seems to be a unique trait for her in the Wiki now so it might be possible ? I'll take another crack at it when I have the time. Sadly Breakless would mean no +50EE from Megalomaniac (and yes, I was retreating for 20+ EE as much as I could to even get as far as I did. The Angel HATE punisher made timing retreats tricky but having them trigger HATE T3 is also the only way I found to bait out their INJU punisher, which I desperately needed to build for Drain...)

Going by the Wiki, the Judgement Punisher of preventing HATE and INN punishers for the loop would actually be really good for Despair if this is what it is. Since you can't T4 those breaks anyways, having the Despair targets trigger those move is only downside unless you really need the EE from the T3 break. Would be interesting with the Megalomania item that allows you to reassign 2nd in command to someone else that will presumably take care of the fighting for the rest of the loop.

Inevitability I've never tried. It feels like I've hardly used any of the base 4 move past the first few loops so I would not be thrilled to get it as a random item (for 30 influence too!). Would be +1EE refund on Inferno Pepper at least I guess.

Angel Rampage seems interesting with the x8 damage item indeed. I might test that if I get offered the item at some point.

The other Forsaken I'm interested in building is actually Devil Negotiation: it should have the same "can always deploy" upside as Tempted Forsaken, with FoK it could have Disgrace in the High-40s / Low-50s (around 100-110% base power) and cost in the 20EE range, which would get refunded more and more by Inferno Pepper as I progress through loops. The +150% racial bonus should allow them to pack a punch (do they still get the +50% PLEA and INJU on top of that ? I think so ?)

The big downside is of course the Motivation hit to everyone else on Deploy, but that can be solved either with a Megalomania Devil so there is no tantrum at least, or enough Spared/Despaired Chosen with Highest Disgrace to have enough passive Motivation regeneration that it is counterbalanced completely - though that would require at least 40% passive recovery to get other Devils stable, and even more for the next tier of Species I reckon. At least Angel don't get reduced Motivation recovery so the Tempted I use as support would be easy to keep happy.

Then again, Negotiation Forsaken can't be Parasitized, so no bonus Trauma trait when they are recruited. That alone might be too much to make the build worth it. Does anyone know if Hardworking Publicist (Parasitized Forsaken gets up to +1000% Trauma damage) and Notorious Publicist (Forsaken gets up to +200% trauma damage when Parasitizing others) are additive or multiplicative ? I've been trying to test this but honestly the values get so high I'm not sure I'm interpreting correctly.

And don't worry about the Broken Psychometer / FoK thing: I was hoping it would work the way you thought until I tested it too. Can't win'em all I guess !

 

[Nobody032]

Yeah this run was initially meant as a test on Inferno Pepper + UD Rampage. When I saw it worked this way, I just ran with it see how far I could get. Pleased with the result so far. If offered Soul Liquefaction (the invest EE item), I think you just become the Demon Lord of the Greater Sin of Investment Banking and corrupt the world through the power of compound interests (so, you know, regular Investment Banking.) I'm won't make a bold claim like "it's better than Tomorrow's Newspaper", but I've enjoyed it more, if that makes sense.

For Judgement Breakless Despair, there seems to be a unique trait for her in the Wiki now so it might be possible ? I'll take another crack at it when I have the time. Sadly Breakless would mean no +50EE from Megalomaniac (and yes, I was retreating for 20+ EE as much as I could to even get as far as I did. The Angel HATE punisher made timing retreats tricky but having them trigger HATE T3 is also the only way I found to bait out their INJU punisher, which I desperately needed to build for Drain...)

Going by the Wiki, the Judgement Punisher of preventing HATE and INN punishers for the loop would actually be really good for Despair if this is what it is. Since you can't T4 those breaks anyways, having the Despair targets trigger those move is only downside unless you really need the EE from the T3 break. Would be interesting with the Megalomania item that allows you to reassign 2nd in command to someone else that will presumably take care of the fighting for the rest of the loop.

Inevitability I've never tried. It feels like I've hardly used any of the base 4 move past the first few loops so I would not be thrilled to get it as a random item (for 30 influence too!). Would be +1EE refund on Inferno Pepper at least I guess.

Angel Rampage seems interesting with the x8 damage item indeed. I might test that if I get offered the item at some point.

The other Forsaken I'm interested in building is actually Devil Negotiation: it should have the same "can always deploy" upside as Tempted Forsaken, with FoK it could have Disgrace in the High-40s / Low-50s (around 100-110% base power) and cost in the 20EE range, which would get refunded more and more by Inferno Pepper as I progress through loops. The +150% racial bonus should allow them to pack a punch (do they still get the +50% PLEA and INJU on top of that ? I think so ?)

The big downside is of course the Motivation hit to everyone else on Deploy, but that can be solved either with a Megalomania Devil so there is no tantrum at least, or enough Spared/Despaired Chosen with Highest Disgrace to have enough passive Motivation regeneration that it is counterbalanced completely - though that would require at least 40% passive recovery to get other Devils stable, and even more for the next tier of Species I reckon. At least Angel don't get reduced Motivation recovery so the Tempted I use as support would be easy to keep happy.

Then again, Negotiation Forsaken can't be Parasitized, so no bonus Trauma trait when they are recruited. That alone might be too much to make the build worth it. Does anyone know if Hardworking Publicist (Parasitized Forsaken gets up to +1000% Trauma damage) and Notorious Publicist (Forsaken gets up to +200% trauma damage when Parasitizing others) are additive or multiplicative ? I've been trying to test this but honestly the values get so high I'm not sure I'm interpreting correctly.

And don't worry about the Broken Psychometer / FoK thing: I was hoping it would work the way you thought until I tested it too. Can't win'em all I guess !

Honestly depending on your items and tactics pepper might actually be better in some circumstances. Especially in your run where there is no actual need to use commanders.

My bad, wasn't really playing during the time despair and Judgement were introduced so didn't know about the "No Break" Vulnerability runs on Victory and Judgement. Gonna edit my comment to prevent misinformation. Also wasn't aware of the Intimidate move.

Btw newer version of the game is out on subscribestar. One of the bug fixes is the Despair energy difference you mentioned. So you can probably do it now.

Honestly only despair I have ever done is on splendor and co. Gonna go for a new playthrough to face Splendor properly.

There is the rampage trait of Judgement which gives her extra damage of 10% per tantrum by forsaken for the loop. Time to get stuck in a tantrum loop and start using negotiation devils. Even Splendor's motivation drain has a use now . If you get the megalomania item you could increase Judgements damage even more.

No idea if it's multiplicative or additive either way more damage is always good.

 

[Nobody032]

New playthrough, same old Greater sins imminent. Weirdly enough this was triggered after getting inseminate on Chaos to get her to get +5 downtime. Both Zenith and Miracle were doing +10 ee generation before. Chaos on rampage, Zenith on tempt and Miracle on negotiation paths(not triggered yet).

At this point triggering this is like a "Right" of passage for me through the early loops.

 

[aumhs]

New playthrough, same old Greater sins imminent. Weirdly enough this was triggered after getting inseminate on Chaos to get her to get +5 downtime. Both Zenith and Miracle were doing +10 ee generation before. Chaos on rampage, Zenith on tempt and Miracle on negotiation paths(not triggered yet).

At this point triggering this is like a "Right" of passage for me through the early loops.

View attachment 3985314

My bet is the following: Their disgust is close enough that they want to do a disgust-lowering downtime together. But Chaos doesn't have a T2 innocence break, so they downgrade to T1. That would be working as intended.

Ways to get the EE generation up again, doing one of them should be enough:
- Break Chaos innocence, so she can join on T2 innocence downtimes.
- Massively increase Chaos' fear, without increasing her disgust much, so she starts doing T2 morale downtimes instead.
- Make them hate each other, so they are less interested in grouping up for downtime.

 

[Nobody032]

Creating a new demon lord body to approach chosen/negotiate seems causes a freeza/crash on the newest version. Old bodies work just fine though.

My bet is the following: Their disgust is close enough that they want to do a disgust-lowering downtime together. But Chaos doesn't have a T2 innocence break, so they downgrade to T1. That would be working as intended.

Ways to get the EE generation up again, doing one of them should be enough:
- Break Chaos innocence, so she can join on T2 innocence downtimes.
- Massively increase Chaos' fear, without increasing her disgust much, so she starts doing T2 morale downtimes instead.
- Make them hate each other, so they are less interested in grouping up for downtime.

I am aware of how downtime works. SuperSkippy made a post about it after looking at the code.

Either way I am able to just replay the same day and get my intented results. Was just wondering if I am the only one who has this curse of getting Triple imminent sins in early loops without forsakens.

 

[aumhs]

I try to make them hate each other, for early bonus EE, so it doesn't come up as much for me. Depends a bit on my distortion goals for the loop though, and on pre-existing minor breaks.

 

[Himnos]

My bad, wasn't really playing during the time despair and Judgement were introduced so didn't know about the "No Break" Vulnerability runs on Victory and Judgement. Gonna edit my comment to prevent misinformation. Also wasn't aware of the Intimidate move.

Btw newer version of the game is out on subscribestar. One of the bug fixes is the Despair energy difference you mentioned. So you can probably do it now.

Honestly only despair I have ever done is on splendor and co. Gonna go for a new playthrough to face Splendor properly.

I tested with version 57 and it turns out I was 850 over the threshold, not 50 under what I needed after all. Oh well it was a fun challenge.

However, it seems you were also right: entering the final battle with no breaks on Judgement does not let you use "Accuse" on her so there is no way to defeat her like that. I don't know if that is intended.

Also, I tried reloading a few days before the final battle and break DIG T3 on her and she can then be accused, but her trait is the usual devil "quadruple benefit" and she is sent to The Prisoners which give no benefit at all, which is a bummer.

I don't know where the Despair traits listed in the wiki come from, but I've not been able to trigger them in game (no clue if the fact I was using a R55-to-R56-to-R57 save might cause a bug that has anything to do with it.)

 

[Nobody032]

I tested with version 57 and it turns out I was 850 over the threshold, not 50 under what I needed after all. Oh well it was a fun challenge.

However, it seems you were also right: entering the final battle with no breaks on Judgement does not let you use "Accuse" on her so there is no way to defeat her like that. I don't know if that is intended.

Also, I tried reloading a few days before the final battle and break DIG T3 on her and she can then be accused, but her trait is the usual devil "quadruple benefit" and she is sent to The Prisoners which give no benefit at all, which is a bummer.

I don't know where the Despair traits listed in the wiki come from, but I've not been able to trigger them in game (no clue if the fact I was using a R55-to-R56-to-R57 save might cause a bug that has anything to do with it.)

When I was trying to see her distortion traits through cheat+single player mode I also ran into the issue of her turning her trait into the normal devil ones. I did it again and then it turned into the break-despair one. There should be trigger for this bug. Maybe try getting all t3 breaks or a t4 dignity/Confidence break and see if it works?

As for the breakless despair one when I tried to get it in single player mode it also didn't let me accuse. I thought it was a problem with single player boss mode. Since I also ran into issues like: Bosses turning into Normal species,Getting stuck on downtime actions of forsaken forever, Despaired Forsaken not getting spared.

Its definitely unintended though. Probably wasn't reported since you are probably the first and only guy to do Breakless Judgement. I think her dialogue still changes. On a side note there might also be a bug with Megalomania unique Defiler for Judgement. I could only see Maneuver as the unique defiler even if I tried training Fixation or Assist Raid.

 

[TheFakeOne23]

I´ve noticed that meeting with my custom chosen/forsaken from v.52 in v.56 has them wearing two sets of clothes whenever the scene suggests that they pick out something to wear different from their base outfit. The one I made for them as their base outfit/combat clothes during creation, and whatever the game picks as their outfit for the meeting (Single runs, not in a campaign).
Anyone else encounter something like this?
I haven´t checked with an un-cheated save yet, since I currently don´t have much spare time, but I´ll propably give that a try once I have sufficient time for a proper playthrough.

 

[Leks Darkmind]

a review by a new player.
without wiki there's too many mysteries. (why opening counter don't go up? what to do to actually do anything in personal meeting?)
why the hell opening must be from several sources?! it should multiply up! (sins are singular and exclusive for a reason)
same problem with limits on team generation: why they must be different in weaknesses?!
did someone got their hands on source code? links?
did I mention useless cheats? where's stats, clothes, story editor? always surround, break buttons?

 

[fenyx]

bug report: with my save I cant go into custom scenes
how to reproduce, meet judgement, add splendor victory and temptress , remove a piece of clothing and the game inmediately hangs
(I tried only with one forsake, splendor , it also hangs when you remove clothing)
It didnt work in 0,57 nor in 0,57b

 

[Celerarity]

a review by a new player.
without wiki there's too many mysteries. (why opening counter don't go up? what to do to actually do anything in personal meeting?)
why the hell opening must be from several sources?! it should multiply up! (sins are singular and exclusive for a reason)
same problem with limits on team generation: why they must be different in weaknesses?!
did someone got their hands on source code? links?
did I mention useless cheats? where's stats, clothes, story editor? always surround, break buttons?

Most of this info you claim are mysteries are explained in the readme guides that ship with the game.

 

[icecoffee]

I tested with version 57 and it turns out I was 850 over the threshold, not 50 under what I needed after all. Oh well it was a fun challenge.

However, it seems you were also right: entering the final battle with no breaks on Judgement does not let you use "Accuse" on her so there is no way to defeat her like that. I don't know if that is intended.

Also, I tried reloading a few days before the final battle and break DIG T3 on her and she can then be accused, but her trait is the usual devil "quadruple benefit" and she is sent to The Prisoners which give no benefit at all, which is a bummer.

I don't know where the Despair traits listed in the wiki come from, but I've not been able to trigger them in game (no clue if the fact I was using a R55-to-R56-to-R57 save might cause a bug that has anything to do with it.)

If you only broke T3, it does not count as [BROKEN]. You need to break T4 and completely Drain/Parasitize for it to be considered a complete break.

The flag in the code for Harbringer of Punishment is (x.defeatType == 10) and !(x.formerSelf.isJudgment(w) && !x.formerSelf.drained && !x.formerSelf.parasitized)), with defeatType 10 being Despair, so you need to do either a Drain or Parasitize action on Judgment/Victory to trigger the second Despair type. (Victory has the slightly more complex (computationally wise) check of !(x.formerSelf.isVictory(w) && x.formerSelf.vulnerabilitiesBroken() == 0), but because breaking any Vulnerability besides Dignity or Confidence throws you out of the Despair distortion route it's essentially the same thing anyway.

When I was trying to see her distortion traits through cheat+single player mode I also ran into the issue of her turning her trait into the normal devil ones. I did it again and then it turned into the break-despair one. There should be trigger for this bug. Maybe try getting all t3 breaks or a t4 dignity/Confidence break and see if it works?

T3 breaks besides the ones neccessary a T4 dignity or confidence are not neccessary. In fact, if you want, you can go the whole game and only trigger breaks for Dignity and Confidence and still fulfill requirements for Harbringer of Punishment, but obviously this while result in generating the neccessary Evil Energy for the Accuse action to be nigh impossible.

 

[Himnos]

If you only broke T3, it does not count as [BROKEN]. You need to break T4 and completely Drain/Parasitize for it to be considered a complete break.

The flag in the code for Harbringer of Punishment is (x.defeatType == 10) and !(x.formerSelf.isJudgment(w) && !x.formerSelf.drained && !x.formerSelf.parasitized)), with defeatType 10 being Despair, so you need to do either a Drain or Parasitize action on Judgment/Victory to trigger the second Despair type. (Victory has the slightly more complex (computationally wise) check of !(x.formerSelf.isVictory(w) && x.formerSelf.vulnerabilitiesBroken() == 0), but because breaking any Vulnerability besides Dignity or Confidence throws you out of the Despair distortion route it's essentially the same thing anyway.


T3 breaks besides the ones neccessary a T4 dignity or confidence are not neccessary. In fact, if you want, you can go the whole game and only trigger breaks for Dignity and Confidence and still fulfill requirements for Harbringer of Punishment, but obviously this while result in generating the neccessary Evil Energy for the Accuse action to be nigh impossible.

I've re-tested with R57b and the Judgement trait seems to be fixed.

Judgement needs a T3 break to be vulnerable to Accuse after all, so a fully "breakless" Despair victory against her is not possible. I got confused because the Wiki was using the same terminology as for Victory, whose Despair trait changes with any Vulnerability Break (even T1 is enough), not just with Total Vulnerability break (T4 only).

So, for Judgement, if she's defeated with Accuse and after a T3 break, but no Total Vulnerability Break (T4) then she gets the Humbled Heroine (Diplomatic Incident) trait and is sent to The Prisoners where she prevents Angels from absorbing Trauma from Devils.

If she's defeated with Accuse and at least one T4 break then she gets the Humbled Heroine (Harbinger of Punishment) trait and joins the Forsaken team with her special trait that reduces Deployment Cost based on highest EE generated by a Chosen last day. She also has access to the "Intimidate" defiler specialty (which blocks off MOR and INN T3 breaks) that the Wiki lists as the Megalomaniac special defiler.

Importantly, it seem defeating her with "Humbled Heroine (Diplomatic Incident)" does not allow you to flip one of Splendor's trait at the moment. I don't know if that is intended behavior.

 

[McHuman]

a review by a new player.
without wiki there's too many mysteries. (why opening counter don't go up? what to do to actually do anything in personal meeting?)
why the hell opening must be from several sources?! it should multiply up! (sins are singular and exclusive for a reason)
same problem with limits on team generation: why they must be different in weaknesses?!
did someone got their hands on source code? links?
did I mention useless cheats? where's stats, clothes, story editor? always surround, break buttons?

Read the guides included in the game download and a lot of it is answered in there.

Why doesn't Opening counter go up?

FEAR: Only while an ally is surrounded or captured. So, until there are multiple Chosen fighting at once, you'll never get an opening from this.
DISG: Always, but only up to half the defense level. At defense level 1, this is rounded up. Above that, it's rounded down. When it's not providing its full level to the opening, it shows up orange in the status display.
PAIN: Always at first, but it goes away after the target is surrounded until you increase the level again.
SHAM: Only when the other three traumas are already making it possible to surround the target. So, it will never create an opening on its own.

Meeting with Chosen is entirely for fluff, there is currently nothing to do with it unless you do the Negotiation Distortion.

Why must Openings come from several sources? Openings have nothing to do with sins, they have to do with how vulnerable the Chosen currently is in the fight.

Limits on team generation? It's how Chosen relationships are handled, Core and Minor vulnerabilities are paired between Chosen, meaning Chosen cant have overlapping vulnerabilities or else it'll cause problems with the relationship events.

Cheats? If you want to edit Chosen stats and clothes just create custom Chosen. Story editor, what story do you even want to edit? Always surround and break, you can get all upgrades, all achievements, all items, and unlimited EE, getting massively long surrounds and tearing through breaks is pretty easy with cheats. The cheat options do what they need to, no point in wasting development time to make a more robust cheat menu.

 

[Namllof]

Heya people, I'm slowly wrapping my head around the game, figuring out how most things work and whatnot but there's something that I'm seriously not getting.

When I first played the game I was able to edit a Chosen/Forsaken's body, I don't mean their base identity, I mean height, hips, etc. After some fiddling around with the game testing things out I think I broke my game (Bug report I guess: Whenever you generate a forsaken and then customize them, if you do start a single playthrough and save before you actually meet any chosen and quit the game, the game refuses to load that particular save. I was also using all possible cheats if that matters.) and I've been locked out from altering my forsaken bodies ever since.

Did I disable something? Do I need to have the shifting options available even if I don't want to mess with their gender to mess with their height and whatnot?

Sorry for the long message, if something wasn't clear I'll gladly clarify, thank you in advance.

PS: Dunno if the dev still hangs around here but awesome game man, reminds me A LOT of that Persona EMUera game, good luck with the game.