Nadaras

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Sep 24, 2018
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Hello! Long time fan of this game. I just managed to complete my first loop with Reign and I think I hit a bug. Or perhaps an oversight would be a better term?

I managed to get Reign on the rampage distortion so I was expecting her to be a pretty long term issue. I figured it would take 3 or so loops to whittle her down by rampaging. However I was a little suprised to get into the final battle and get a message that she is refusing to even fight. It seems the game is treating her as a despair chosen and auto breaking her. I was able to get the fight to work normally by spending enough EE but that stops me from using despair on Honey like I had planned to.

This is my first time using despair on a boss. Do they normally auto break without even joining the fight? Wouldn't that make aversion distortions impossible to complete?
 
Sep 2, 2020
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Hmm, well, regarding Despair, no, normal chosen don't auto-break, they need to be accused. Also Reign was under diffrent distorion, which goes against despair req.
As for what's happening I can only guess. The whole "lore" of Reign is that she is a scout and runs away after encountering strong demons. Maybe it checks on break conditions of other chosen and judges that they are beyond help. But why then if she runs, she ends up forsaken?? I'm most confused. I myself have not broken reign. I encountered her on a later loop, after 10th one, because I Updated the game, but didn't want to restart high loop streak. I wasn't able to squeek out the break, so I got 2 forsaken and she ran. Also reign has no buffs or distortion specialty, and it doesn't follow the CS dev style, to write in green, but give forsaken anyway, when it's usually color shift mid-sentence.
I think it's a glitch and you shouldn't recieve reign at the end. Still, congrats on loop 7
 

fenyx

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Jun 16, 2017
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DisasterOnLegs is correct here. If you have a small number of high-Hostility Forsaken, you often can get away with never doing anything special to restore your Forsaken's Motivation, since they restore more from tantruming than they lose from the other Forsaken's tantrums. After testing your save, everything seems to be working properly. I passed two days, then trained Prayer with Pheromone Curse and she went from 18.1% to 21.1% Motivation.
Ok, I see now that it actually regained 3 motivation, So it is normal for a forsaken with low hostility to regain less than 1 point of motivation ?
I suppose it is the first time I end up with forsaken with such low hostility and I thought it was a bug
Sorry for the miscomunication
 

Yddrasil

Newbie
May 10, 2018
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Thank you for the feedback! I agree that being able to get 100EE from early Distortions is probably a bit too powerful with how the game balance worked out. The difficulty of both Devils and Angels is largely tied to limiting your daily EE gains, which makes it hard to field the midgame moderately-expensive Forsaken who are capable of achieving T3 Break levels of trauma. The giant up-front EE award lets you skip that as long as even one of the Chosen is vulnerable to it.

I don't want to outright nerf Temptation and Rampancy, but something definitely needs to be tweaked there.

Hey, thanks for responding! I would argue that the EE thing is honestly one of the less strong things about temptation, my main issue with it would be that it completely ignores any of the other mechanics the game has. To achieve temptation, you need 2 T2 breaks (10K circumstance damage only, no trauma needed; a 3EE forsaken can do that) and 100K PLEA (a 3EE forsaken can also do that, even at 0 angst, so again no trauma needed), and since this occurs within a capture, there is no "defense" against it for any chosen. The EE cost is mostly trivial, so undead, angel and devil's EE limits aren't useful, no surrounds are needed (unlike the orgy requirement for aversion or surround duration for rampage, which can get messed up by either trauma reduction from devil, animalistics or simply loop difficulty), and again, no trauma is needed unlike negotiation. The only ability that hinders this process is animalistics (but you just need to wait until the right time, but its also possible to just bruteforce past a 1/10 reduction). And spitballing random ideas for a moment, maybe making it so tempt is only in surrounds can make it so T3 moves like mating call can stop a tempt from being initiated would help.

It puts temptation at this unique stop where a tempted forsaken can singlehandedly tempt chosen by simply capturing another for EXPO and capturing the victim twice, and then repeat that until the requirement for tempt is low enough that the final fight is a cakewalk as well, especially that tempt ignores resolve. Effectively, 10KPLEA, 10K EXPO and then 100K PLEA instantly wins the game with no other effort needed. One thing that can maybe be done is that tempt is not immediately effective but require a certain duration, like most others, or require the TEMPT action itself to do a certain amount of PLEA for it to trigger, so that damage reduction may matter. Another way is to trauma gate it, but honestly these suggestions make tempt less unique as well, so I'm not sure if they are actually good suggestions.

Another thing that is related is that the grind towards the final fight feels weird, as the requirement reduces every time making it easier to achieve; I have already shown I can reach 100K, 70K is not going to be harder, especially given that tempt can be done in a capture and no T3 move can really stop that. this is mostly present for other distortions as well. Personally, making it so the requirement before the final fight rise exponentially (example: 100K PLEA to 300K, then 1M, etc.) each time while reducing the final fight requirement linearly can make it so that you need to either approach a difficult final fight or you had a few dficult fight leading up to it.

Honestly I might be one of the few autists here that want to make the game harder.
 
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fenyx

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Jun 16, 2017
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Honestly I might be one of the few autists here that want to make the game harder.
Honestly I wish the rest of the game was as easy as playing with tempting forsaken .
I used to play in a way that my star player was an undead demon Knight forsaken(that got stronger by exposing and impregnating) and the game has become so much easier since I read about the combo tempting+notorious/hardworking

Right now im trying negotiating and averting them because I want to try the other Items of the game and it is SO much harder
 
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sevenbysix

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Aug 31, 2016
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Hey I am trying to get into this game, seems really interesting and deep - discovered some of the guide posts here from McHuman (these would be great to get linked in the top post!) Played through a single play game, using this and managed to get 2 of the chosen killed in the final battle, and t4 breaks on two of them! Had no idea I needed something special to break resolve haha! Then discovered the wiki - which is super cool, I didn't know it existed at first. Tried to go to SuperSkippy's play and learn, and the file to play along link does not work - it says the file is no longer available. Is there an updated location to find the file? Tried searching through this thread, but did not turn up what I was looking for.



Thanks to the dev for making this very unique and cool game and all the people making guides/tips so knuckleheads like me can potentially do something :)
 

aumhs

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Dec 5, 2022
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Right now im trying negotiating and averting them because I want to try the other Items of the game and it is SO much harder
aversion forsaken dealing hate+inju damage works really well for me, especially if they have the +trauma damage defiler (which tbh is probably too strong).
 
Sep 2, 2020
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Ok, I see now that it actually regained 3 motivation, So it is normal for a forsaken with low hostility to regain less than 1 point of motivation ?
I suppose it is the first time I end up with forsaken with such low hostility and I thought it was a bug
Sorry for the miscomunication
Hostility doesn't impact motivation restoration. Motivation restored by actions is constant and increased/decreased during training. If you have one of the species forsaken, then their restoration is cut by 1/3, it is said so in the profile. On normal forsaken everything is normal, aka everything I said previously.
 

fenyx

Member
Jun 16, 2017
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Hostility doesn't impact motivation restoration. Motivation restored by actions is constant and increased/decreased during training. If you have one of the species forsaken, then their restoration is cut by 1/3, it is said so in the profile. On normal forsaken everything is normal, aka everything I said previously.
what do you mean by "actions"?
 
Sep 2, 2020
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what do you mean by "actions"?
Training actions, during training. You can split them into 4 types of intensity - the more intesnse the more motivation restored, the more expertise gained, the less stamina spent. You can see it under the action, it shows the numbers after applying training modifiers.
 
Sep 2, 2020
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Hey I am trying to get into this game, seems really interesting and deep - discovered some of the guide posts here from McHuman (these would be great to get linked in the top post!) Played through a single play game, using this and managed to get 2 of the chosen killed in the final battle, and t4 breaks on two of them! Had no idea I needed something special to break resolve haha! Then discovered the wiki - which is super cool, I didn't know it existed at first. Tried to go to SuperSkippy's play and learn, and the file to play along link does not work - it says the file is no longer available. Is there an updated location to find the file? Tried searching through this thread, but did not turn up what I was looking for.



Thanks to the dev for making this very unique and cool game and all the people making guides/tips so knuckleheads like me can potentially do something :)
You can probably ask SuperSkippy yourself, search thread for his nickname, just be aware that the guide is for older version, the new one is 60f, so who know what changed since then.
 
Sep 2, 2020
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Honestly I might be one of the few autists here that want to make the game harder.
Took time to read and think, and damn, I can't help but agree. Okay hear me out guys, the difficult part of learning the game is the begining, the steep slope(as far as I understand/remember) and this has little to do with extra mechanics like forsaken, species, items, achievments, bosses AND distortions. So, distortions are extra, what now? Well if it were to be more difficult than classic way, then a) it would not impact the newbies and b) would fit the theme and balance.
The classic way is a way of brute force, break them with overwhelming trauma, corrupt them with sheer depravity. But distorion is subtle manipulation which gives less bonuses in a short run, but gives you a handy backdoor access to their will to fight on the final day, so to say, pun included. So it makes sense that it would not be easy. Aversion and Rampancy rely on you ability to get surround levels, which can be hard. Negotiation is the hardest(out of first 4) with 1G angst being high bar to clear, and on top of that it gives you a weak resolve damage action...like come on, I could do literally the same thing with slime spit...funnily enough the optimal way is to spit first and then finish her off with words. But tempt is certainly the easiest, with low bar of 100k that after crossing once pretty much gives you the chosen. The EE you get is quite a thing to consider too, but I can't judge it cause I don't fully get the breakpoints and numbers for it.

One thing that can maybe be done is that tempt is not immediately effective but require a certain duration
Disscusing the possible changes, I'm on the fence, in the final fight the bar for clearing tempt being high circ. is unique, so maybe changing that is not the way. I don't think distortion should be something that makes it hard in the final battle, it is opposite. Hard to reach, easy to finish off. I think flipping the progression scale for repeated temp actions is brilliant, it would need some changes to intial values and progression, but it preserves the identity, while making it harder to reach easy victory for the final battle. Tbh I think the same treatment can be done to aversion. It's like "the more you corrupt them, the harder it is to corrupt them further", even something like a unique text for reaching next level of tempt breakpoint would be nice to see. Like at first she "dances and teases thralls" then she "lets them touch her" then she "services them willingly" etc. etc. Same with aversion, but less and less "there", maybe even hint at the fact that her personlity is splitting and she acts diffrently, cause the sudden forsaken change didn't really catch on to me at first.
The negotiation...maybe make it less...bad in the final fight? Like maybe if she is alone you can instantly convince her to give up, or to give meaning for repeated meetings, instead of(or along with) giving the resolve dmg ability, make her surrender when under certain resolve. Bcs the base idea with meetings is fire, love it. But as distortions go, it's weak and requires many days to waste on it.
Rampancy is fun and makes it quite a challenge to juggle this ball of anger, when you reach the breakpoint, so it's perfectly fine.
No suggestions on last two distortions as well, they are great. Except maybe despair being a bit redundant after getting the ability to spare forsaken, unless i'm mistaken somewhere and they are diffrent.
my main issue with it would be that it completely ignores any of the other mechanics the game has
And as far as this goes, I'm not sure it is a problem, or even if it is, that there is a solution. But if I were to spitball a solution, maybe connecting the requirment to DISG trauma, or maybe make part of the progression(mentioned previously) extra breakpoints like T3 for plea. Of course it's already quite far from what we have now so maybe it's a long shot, but I do get the idea of making tempt path not the one all be all, for easy victory against any type of team in any town.
 

Yddrasil

Newbie
May 10, 2018
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the difficult part of learning the game is the begining
Agreed. I remember the first won single play loop I had where I broke the a T4 on a second chosen one day before the final battle, and then barely won it. I have been chasing the high ever since, and doing sub-10 day loops at 20+ isn't quite doing it for me.

The EE you get is quite a thing to consider too, but I can't judge it cause I don't fully get the breakpoints and numbers for it.
The associated breaks for temptation and the 100EE is enough (assuming you have tomorrow's newspaper, which you should if you want to maximize power) to get at least 2 of Networked Consciousness, Reality Sealing, Soul Resonance or Passion Release, which are the "endgame techs", so to speak, so that you effectively skip the early (I would define this as the T2 break and the 4/2 commanders, for loop 1) and mid (first orgy and T3 breaks) games.

Also since we are spitballing, I would also like to float the idea of making Imago Quickening cost 0EE, and give a damage reduction in the final fight that increases with the the amount of days skipped which can be lowered by donating EE, just to reduce endgame grind while potentially introducing another thing to optimise for.

I do get the idea of making tempt path not the one all be all, for easy victory against any type of team in any town.
Hopefully I am not annoying CSDev with too many random ideas for their game, but another thing that can mitigate this is by making the achievement bonuses more generic. I don't have many averted forsaken so the achievement was never built so I never get more averted forsaken, for example, and making it so the bonuses contribute to multiple potential win conditions makes it so that there is more incentive to get different distortions. That's one of the cool thing I found about Reign.
 
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Sep 2, 2020
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The associated breaks for temptation and the 100EE is enough (assuming you have tomorrow's newspaper, which you should if you want to maximize power) to get at least 2 of Networked Consciousness, Reality Sealing, Soul Resonance or Passion Release, which are the "endgame techs", so to speak, so that you effectively skip the early (I would define this as the T2 break and the 4/2 commanders, for loop 1) and mid (first orgy and T3 breaks) games.
Oh wow, I'm so far from optimal on my long run...I kinda never got newspaper, and now I regret it. It's fine but maaan, haha, sub-10 days run is tight, especially on species teams. But I'm having fun going fast with my own forsaken, so it's all good.
That's one of the cool thing I found about Reign.
I agree that Reign is very unique even among bosses. So far I'm in love with her concept and execution. Trully feels like a part of this big scary coucil of most powerfull chosen.
 
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aumhs

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Dec 5, 2022
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The associated breaks for temptation and the 100EE is enough (assuming you have tomorrow's newspaper, which you should if you want to maximize power) to get at least 2 of Networked Consciousness, Reality Sealing, Soul Resonance or Passion Release, which are the "endgame techs", so to speak, so that you effectively skip the early (I would define this as the T2 break and the 4/2 commanders, for loop 1) and mid (first orgy and T3 breaks) games.
To be honest, the fact that tomorrows newspaper is considered so much stronger than all the other starting items is probably the biggest balance problem at the moment.
You really don't need the item, but the difference in difficulty is too big.
 

Yddrasil

Newbie
May 10, 2018
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Okay just to illustrate (even more) the power of temptation (and to show off a bit), here's a 5-day victory against Love at loop 25:

1736181867800.png

While I don't want to claim that its optimised, I don't think I can get it any lower than this: 2 days to get all 3 tempts, 1 day to get the orgy, 1 day to break all 3 T3 and T4 dignity (with Acceleration), and 1 final day. I don't think a 3EE undead temptress can tempt all 3 chosens without Vengeful Reconstitution, so maybe a +20EE item can make a 3 tempt day 1 possible, but I don't have that. If we are considering the fight only, maybe the last two can be merged, but I lack the EE for Imago Quickening without the T4 break. Now that I'm done a full loop of content, I'll try to make another long post about the entirety of it.
 
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Yddrasil

Newbie
May 10, 2018
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This is the long post of complaints. It’s going to be mostly negative in tone, but by the fact that I played to loop 25 and wrote all these words, I hope it is obvious that I like this game. It’s going to be based on my first and only full campaign run, which went by Reign > Splendor > Reign2 (won) > Victory > Judgment > Love, with maybe 2-3 skipped loops total. This relies heavily on my memory, as I often delete old saves. I can only speak to the content I have seen and interacted with.

In summary:
  • Temptation is too easy, as it is not affected by loop modifiers
  • Negotiation gets screwed by loop modifier, though that's mostly fine
  • I don't know how Propaganda works
  • Tomorrow's Newspaper is actually fine as-it-is
  • Megalomaniacs are bad (exception is the angelic ones, since they buff non-megalomaniacs)
  • Strategic Advantage is weirdly implemented
  • Judgment and Love feel indistinct

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Userxxxx

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Jan 7, 2025
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Hello, I want to turn my girls against each other, but I have minor problem and I mean it. Well 3 out of 4 of their Minor vulnerabilities are broken up to T2. Now I am not entirely sure how friendship system works, but does that mean I wont be able to turn them agains each other? becose with nearly every break of some core vulnerability there would be already broken minor vulnerability?
 
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