Others Corruption of Champions II [v0.8.16] [Savin/Salamander Studios]

[CrimsonSongbird1982]

look at WH40K: would say a space marine is an example of power fantasy?

I don't know enough about Warhammer and its various settings, games, and shows to argue one way or the other tbh. If the point is that a dark fantasy setting means it can't be a power fantasy in any way, then I disagree.

Being powerful and well connected is not the same as living a power fantasy. The power fantasy is how an ugly goblin like him (except in W3) can get laid without paying.

That seems exactly the same as a power fantasy or at least an aspect of it. And I haven't read the books so idk if he's overtly ugly in those, but in-game Geralt is more treated as unsettling due to his eyes and scars, you'd be hard pressed to find someone who'd call him ugly. Either way, shifting what the power fantasy of Witcher is doesn't negate the issues with Savin's point.

There isn't a single exceptionally written power fantasy novel in the history of humankind. You know where power fantasies sell well? Manga, anime, capeshit comics. The only way to make anything worthwhile out of it is by making something like One Punch Man. There's no high literature based on power fantasy and there'll never be. It doesn't hold itself together under scrutiny, make it for the weebs.

It can still be enjoyable. I enjoyed WOTR. Is it something to write home about? No. The gameplay's still enjoyable, despite the hordes of enemies, so that's worth something.

While I don't exactly disagree with this specific sentiment, I've bitched about stuff like Shield Hero and others after all, It feels like you're splitting hairs on what constitutes a power fantasy and I don't fully understand what your point is overall. Especially in your initial response.

 

[yuzuyo]

I don't fully understand what your point is overall.

The point is that it doesn't need power fantasy to not be garbage. Like I said, a toned down Trials in Tainted Space could work. They only needed to look at TiTS and tone it down a little for CoC2 and the game would feel good without giving in to power fantasy. They went the opposite way and made the MC completely irrelevant since we're not needed for anything and the gods completely irredeemable trash for allowing Kasyrra to do whatever the fuck she wants.

 

[Chris20]

There isn't a single exceptionally written power fantasy novel in the history of humankind. You know where power fantasies sell well? Manga, anime, capeshit comics. The only way to make anything worthwhile out of it is by making something like One Punch Man. There's no high literature based on power fantasy and there'll never be. It doesn't hold itself together under scrutiny, make it for the weebs.

It can still be enjoyable. I enjoyed WOTR. Is it something to write home about? No. The gameplay's still enjoyable, despite the hordes of enemies, so that's worth something.

There are good examples by either side of the coin (NSFW and SFW). The ones that comes to mind are the following:

1. Baldur gate trilogy.
2. The fallout series.
3. The original Mass Effect trilogy.
4. The Dragon Age trilogy (dont mention the blasphemy of the new one)

In the NSFW realm, you have The last Sovereign, Superhuman, Ravager and maybe even Seed of chaos but right now it is more about being a servant and a lot of NTR stuff so meh.
The key is making the story with consequential limitations, not limitless power from the beginning.

 

[ChubbyFatBoy]

I don't agree with this perception. To give a different example, look at WH40K: would say a space marine is an example of power fantasy? I wouldn't. Being powerful and well connected is not the same as living a power fantasy. The power fantasy is how an ugly goblin like him (except in W3) can get laid without paying.

Power fantasies are frequently dogshit, worthless wankery, so I agree with Savin's position of being against it, at least most of the time. The problem is that they go the opposite way and make the champion completely irrelevant. If a fragile human being in our world can be influential and at the same time so incredibly fragile, why not give the players something to make them feel like they achieved something, even if they can't go around slaying gods? Giving us hard-earned power and influence would solve the debacle. The Wayfort feels worthless and easily gotten, despite the game supposedly not being a power fantasy. Trials in Tainted Space, but a bit toned down would be enough.

Struggling like a son of a bitch in Wizardry makes everything feel sweet when your party gets very powerful and every single one of your members can cast mage spells. Actual progression. No more save scumming to keep me safe from packs of bandits.

But a power fantasy is about wish fulfillment. You can absolutely do that in 40k depending on who is writing it. Just because the world itself is fucked up. Doesn't mean you can't do things to make sure the person taking centerstage. Has a big enough dick to plop on the table. Hell with so much bullshit in that world. That is a whole ass playground for one. Also, being powerful and well connected is not the same? Using what metric? Those two things are tools. How you're allowed to use them is where the fantasy part comes into play. Not everyone's idea of a power fantasy is about becoming superman or the one true god at the end... though they are the typical endings chosen.

I'm sorry but Savin doesn't have a leg to stand on. He and the rest of the goof troop couldn't write it. Or they just wanted to do something different. But that's a them issue, not a power fantasy problem. Then to top it all off. Looking at the comment from Savin. What he brought up doesn't even stop a power fantasy from happening. Like he seems to have this narrow view that you gotta win 100% or it don't count.

 

[benisfug]

The point is that it doesn't need power fantasy to not be garbage. Like I said, a toned down Trials in Tainted Space could work. They only needed to look at TiTS and tone it down a little for CoC2 and the game would feel good without giving in to power fantasy. They went the opposite way and made the MC completely irrelevant since we're not needed for anything and the gods completely irredeemable trash for allowing Kasyrra to do whatever the fuck she wants.

Keep in mind that Savin's idea of "power fantasy" is heavily tainted by old drama bullshit which he uses as justification to fuck over the player character out of pure spite towards you the irl player.

 

[CrimsonSongbird1982]

The point is that it doesn't need power fantasy to not be garbage. Like I said, a toned down Trials in Tainted Space could work. They only needed to look at TiTS and tone it down a little for CoC2 and the game would feel good without giving in to power fantasy. They went the opposite way and made the MC completely irrelevant since we're not needed for anything and the gods completely irredeemable trash for allowing Kasyrra to do whatever the fuck she wants.

Ok gotcha. I do agree with that statement. Being a power fantasy wouldn't save the writing. I just more wanted to point out that Savin doesn't fully understand his own argument against power fantasies.

4. The Dragon Age trilogy (dont mention the blasphemy of the new one)

Veilguard would've been better if it was its own IP. I know the game is lucky it not only came out but in such a stable condition, but the elf illuminati thing is stupid and it invalidated every game prior on top of wiping out every other character and setting. RIP Bioware. At least it maintained the tradition of changing the Darkspawn aesthetically every game despite the first one nailing it. The concept art was way better.

Keep in mind that Savin's idea of "power fantasy" is heavily tainted by old drama bullshit which he uses as justification to fuck over the player character out of pure spite towards you the irl player.

That describes all his writing and decisions not influenced by his two fetishes. And Tobs.

Isn't the Act 2 Main Quest Finale planned to come out next month? I wonder if it'll be so bad it inspires a hundred pages of complaints, or so boring that it gets treated with the same fanfare as Agni updates do. I'm betting it's a half assed quest with piss poor balancing for a supposedly dramatic showdown and Kas will reveal herself like she wasn't obvious and crabwalk to her final boss dungeon that has a velvet rope blocking access. Also Tollus will be there for some reason.

 

[Jbuster]

Keep in mind that Savin's idea of "power fantasy" is heavily tainted by old drama bullshit which he uses as justification to fuck over the player character out of pure spite towards you the irl player.

Pretty much this, Savin's main issue is that he's angry at the player for wanting to become ultra powerful in a setting that is all about having the chance to be all powerful, same reason he changes stuff when someone finds a way to beat Kasyrra or any other overpowered enemy despite those being instances of the player actually conquering the game and doing something amazing through effort

Furthermore there's the narrative problem of your champion being the focus of the history and possible savior of these furry monsters while also being told that the role of the champion is not that important, while the other important people do almost nothing. Being represented as someone weak in front of the world is not the issue, is the poor execution, is Tollus getting away like a cartoon villain every time you are close to finish him, is having Tollus as the de facto main bad guy when he possess zero aura to carry the role, while the real bad guy oscillates between loving girlfriend and Mao Ze Futa Dong

Also, arbitrary choices done to make the player pick between two outcomes are bad, for the simple fact that in other games, when forced to make a moral based judgment there's a real moral issue behind, while here, there's nothing of that, nothing of what you do is truly that evil in the long run because the world already feels tainted. Corrupted Drifa is Driffa in e-girl mode, corrupted hive got the sovieted out of reality, Viviane becomes a demon because she can't detect corruption without your help and so on

Is the clumsy execution of a power fantasy that also doesn't want to be a power fantasy that makes the tone of the game feels off

I really wish that dude could get over his issues because, honestly, who the fuck would want to add IRL drama into something they are supposed to enjoy?, if I were angry or bitter against some vague group of online randoms the less thing I would want would be to have them as the focus of my entertainment

 

[yuzuyo]

Also, being powerful and well connected is not the same? Using what metric?

What? If can walk up to you, fill your head with lead, drag your body into a ditch and set it on fire, are you living a power fantasy? Geralt can like die a chump to a vampire in Witcher 3 if he tries his patience. Doesn't even need to be antagonistic, just annoy him.

If you have decisive rough wake up calls, choices with problematic outcomes either way, how is it a power fantasy? Is anyone's wish fulfillment to be a normal creature, unable to save everyone and having to live with the consequences? That's how it usually goes for 40K, including for the beloved Ciaphas Cain. Badass who constantly eats dirt.

And I didn't say it's not possible to write power fantasy in the setting. It's fiction, you can write anything you fucking want, even if it comes off as nonsensical and moronic. That's completely irrelevant. The point is that being powerful and well connected is not the same as living a power fantasy, especially if you're soft enough for a bullet to get in and put you in your place. Or soft enough for a tyranid to split you in two. Even if you're a space marine.

It's garbage escapism in its core and antithesis of good literature. It is itself the issue. Not the game's issue, but I don't blame Savin for disliking it.

1. Baldur gate trilogy.
2. The fallout series.
3. The original Mass Effect trilogy.
4. The Dragon Age trilogy

I really don't see how most those are exceptional examples of writing. Baldur's gate is corny crap, but I enjoy them despite this. The first game has barely any writing, the companions don't do anything and we have no moral decision worth shit, exactly what I expect from Bioware (KOTOR1). The second game is better, but not really interesting, much like the first.

Fallout 2 is the closest to a power fantasy of the main games (except 4, I don't care about it), but it's also the most silly game of the franchise, excluding 3. It's not nearly as serious as the first game and I don't think a game that can frequently look like a comedy show is an exceptional example of writing. New Vegas is much better written, but the game makes a point of not giving a perfect ending. The closest is the NCR, I'd say, and that's a faction ending. Yes Man turns freeside into a shithole. The courier is like the terminator, but that's most video game protagonists if we're being honest. At least outside cutscenes.

Mass Effect and Dragon Age are very nice. Not what I'd call exceptional writing, though. They still don't come close to Planescape and Disco Elysium when it comes to how well written they are. I think New Vegas is better than both of these franchises, too. The settings are cool, but the stories told in them are not really impactful. Mass Effect is a thousand times more impactful than Dragon Age, though.

Now, Planescape and Disco Elysium are fucking great. But not really power fantasies. KOTOR2 is also great and closer to a power fantasy than those, but honestly, wish fulfillment will always hold back any work. The best works are about how shit life is sometimes and how we deal with its problems realistically. No space for escapism wankery.