Others Corruption of Champions II [v0.8.17] [Savin/Salamander Studios]

[yuzuyo]

I think the best fantasy of having power is where things are hard and you have a strong disadvantage, but through hard work and development, you overcome the disproportionately strong.

Honestly, at this point it's really hard to label things.

Power fantasy is not a real term. There's no actual, objective definition. You can talk to real women so fucked in the head that they're crazy about Charles Manson. If we define power fantasy by saying it is simply wish fulfillment, living a life with Charles Manson would be "power fantasy" for those women. They could write fanfics about it.

Someone could do what you're describing in real life. It's hard for me to describe it as power fantasy. It's the underdog classic.

 

[yuzuyo]

Besides, sometimes real events are even more crazy than fiction.

Lol, yeah, good point. As I said, I do think power fantasy fictions can be good, despite this characteristic. Like New Vegas and Mass Effect. New Vegas is one of my favourite games and it lets you do some crazy things. No perfect endings, but it can certainly fit into many definitions of power fantasy.

Meh, at the end of the day it is a nebulous idea. The only way to make a proper discussion out of this is asking Savin for a clear cut definition of his so we can see how it fits.

 

[CrimsonSongbird1982]

The wish in Disco Elysium is to understand yourself and the broken world around you.

The wish in Disco Elysium is actually to become Hobo Cop and drive Kim Kitsuragi to alcoholism with your antics.

Fucking hell. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. I was being generous by not claiming it is nothing but Gary Stu garbage and here you come to make my life so much easier. That's what you want. Escapism trash for people unable to discern anything at all. I'm sure Savin's living in a power fantasy right now, keeping you from living vicariously through his video games.

Gary Stu and power fantasies end up hand in hand when the writer is bad but they're not the same thing. It really seems like you're boiling down anything that has to do with escapism or the protagonist reaching an undefined power level as a power fantasy. By the definition you seem to hold, any and all media is power fantasy for providing any degree of escapism. Assuming there is a point to all this.

Honestly, at this point it's really hard to label things.

Power fantasy is not a real term. There's no actual, objective definition. You can talk to real women so fucked in the head that they're crazy about Charles Manson. If we define power fantasy by saying it is simply wish fulfillment, living a life with Charles Manson would be "power fantasy" for those women. They could write fanfics about it.

Someone could do what you're describing in real life. It's hard for me to describe it as power fantasy. It's the underdog classic.

You just labeled it. You labeled it as escapism and Gary Stu garbage. Are you just trying to provoke YouShallNotLol for disagreeing with you or something?

Geralt can like die a chump to a vampire in Witcher 3 if he tries his patience. Doesn't even need to be antagonistic, just annoy him.

You can also come out on top in that encounter by reasoning with said vampire or pointing out that you and the citizens don't have to kill him to prevail. You're own logic doesn't work on your example. If you can reach a canon win state is that not a power fantasy?

Maybe you should explain what your definition of a power fantasy is because so far you've been inconsistent on your definition and antagonistic when getting pushback instead of clarifying your stance.

Next you'll be telling me that Lord of The Rings is a generic fantasy flick only liked because of Tolkien's political views.

It was the walking. It's what most remember so it must be that.

Honestly it stopped being about the player and their agency halfway through development, invalidating all this lovely power fantasy discourse. We're genuinely just soft-experiencing "nextgame" where it's Savin and the goon squad's DnD game with inconsequential cookie cutter "choices".

CoC3 will probably be a static VN with false choices.

Meh, at the end of the day it is a nebulous idea. The only way to make a proper discussion out of this is asking Savin for a clear cut definition of his so we can see how it fits.

I kinda get the feeling Savin doesn't have any idea what he's talking about and won't be willing or able to give a clear answer.

 

[GS21]

I kinda get the feeling Savin doesn't have any idea what he's talking about and won't be willing or able to give a clear answer.

Insert the forum screenshot of Savin just going "lol No" xd

 

[Chris20]

I cant believe all of this started with me sharing some badass 90s style fanfic of baldurs gate lmao.

 

[yuzuyo]

You just labeled it. You labeled it as escapism and Gary Stu garbage. Are you just trying to provoke YouShallNotLol for disagreeing with you or something?

No I didn't? I asked for a definition. He's the one who gave me one, citing mythological heroes with harem of women. Now I ask you: WHO, not looking for escapism, is unashamedly asking for power fantasy, when their definition of power fantasy is that? If all it is, is wish fulfillment, ANY fucking thing is power fantasy as long as someone writes it. Charles Manson's cult idea of power fantasy is living with him. Are we really going to define that as power fantasy?

And I was never asked my definition. It is EXTREME wish fulfillment, not just anything someone can wish for. Someone wishing to be a lumberjack is not living a power fantasy by eventually becoming one. That's stupid as all fuck, what? It doesn't necessarily reach Gary Stu levels, but it happens often enough. Usually hits close. Someone very powerful or very intelligent doing things someone normal wouldn't be able to normally do. More like, he wishes to be the strongest lumberjack of his country and at least three wives who all love him.

Anything resembling real life is not a power fantasy, that would be complete nonsense of the highest order. We could fit basically anything under that definition and there's no need to make a label if the label fits every fucking thing. Being a lumberjack and having a good wife and some kids? Not a power fantasy.

 

[SatanHGG]

We could fit basically anything under that definition

Language is notoriously imprecise, and literary genres also change as culture does. Like the very concept of a hero is vastly different in modern America than it was in ancient Greece, both in terms of their feats and their sense of morality.
So it's no surprise you can find ways to interpret a genre that seems to lose more and more meaning the harder you look at it.
I don't think sheer reality of whether something can be done is relevant. Most people are trapped in a system of modernity that controls every aspect of their life, that even monitors their movements, that robs them of every ounce of freedom they can get away with and sells it as for your benefit. Sure, it's possible to rise up against the disproportionately strong, but it's not exactly realistic in the minds of most people.
And I think the more realistic a power fantasy seems, the more it energizes the reader. Difficult yet possible, in a culture that dooms over these things being out of their grasp.

So, culturally, I think power fantasy now is different than it was before. It's a fluid thing, genres are.
But also not a very important discourse in my opinion. Whether something gets the label or not has no baring on if it's good. Any genre or premise can be good. Some are harder to do well than others, but there's nothing impossible to make excellent.

 

[YouShallNotLol]

You just labeled it. You labeled it as escapism and Gary Stu garbage. Are you just trying to provoke YouShallNotLol for disagreeing with you or something?

Guess it's my bad for trying to talk instead of pre-emptively throwing that doofus into ignore.
Expect certain someone on the fenoxoforum showing off screenshots of himself "owning the evil chud YouShallNotLol" in a couple of days from now.

 

[yuzuyo]

So, culturally, I think power fantasy now is different than it was before. It's a fluid thing, genres are.

That's fair enough, but it destroys my position. For example: Jaime Lannister. I wouldn't say he's living a power fantasy ever since he fled King's Landing after attacking Ned. I suppose, in a way, he could live a good life even after he lost his hand, but being who he is, he won't. Great character. And he's now the underdog. My position is mostly about what I described as extreme cases that are not really extreme, considering how common they can be. Deeply flawed characters like Jaime suffered quite a bit and it feels hard to envision someone wanting to be in his place.

Guess it's my bad for trying to talk instead of pre-emptively throwing that doofus into ignore.
Expect certain someone on the fenoxoforum showing off screenshots of himself "owning the evil chud YouShallNotLol" in a couple of days from now.

You're really pathetic, buddy. Truly, no jest. You spend day in, day out, thinking about people you'll never meet, thinking about how they're going to "own" you next in their little corner of the internet and how they've infiltrated this place. It's very sad. Go look for a therapist or something, that's just not healthy.

 

[CrimsonSongbird1982]

Now I ask you: WHO, not looking for escapism, is unashamedly asking for power fantasy, when their definition of power fantasy is that?

Assuming this isn't rhetorical, on this thread? To my knowledge no one. It's more annoyance at how the hatred Savin seems to hold for his view of power fantasies have tainted aspects of the game and I'm not coming through hundreds of pages to humor you. In general? How the hell would anyone know without doing a census? Especially when no one can agree on what a power fantasy is consistently even here.

I give up on the rest. You either contradict yourself or can't present a clear point aside from you hate power fantasies and that CoC2 being a power fantasy wouldn't fix its problems. The former is subjective and if you hate power fantasies then you do you, and the latter is true but seemingly not what you're arguing in the first place.

Guess it's my bad for trying to talk instead of pre-emptively throwing that doofus into ignore.
Expect certain someone on the fenoxoforum showing off screenshots of himself "owning the evil chud YouShallNotLol" in a couple of days from now.

I'm lost is that actually a thing they do over there now?

Evil and intimidating hater: YouShallNotLol.
Congrats on the Yakuza style boss intro.

 

[Jbuster]

Honestly it stopped being about the player and their agency halfway through development, invalidating all this lovely power fantasy discourse. We're genuinely just soft-experiencing "nextgame" where it's Savin and the goon squad's DnD game with inconsequential cookie cutter "choices".
Or at the very least it just feels like it.

Yup

It all comes down to honesty, Savin is not honest with what he wants to achieve, and that's it

Is a power fantasy, you, the champion, become the most influential person ever; loved by the gods, cherished by whole kingdoms, respected and revered in all lands as far as your eyesight might reach. Everyone who hates the champion is also depicted as a sorry loser no worthy of any attention or as a creepy freak no one really likes, and as much as your character is presented as a inconsequential blob playing a part because the gods don't care, they do still care enough to have you around fixing this or that issue, they want you

Is so much of a power fantasy that the main bad guy who has no equal in the world, discounting bad end scenarios including those in which she lose, the same endings that only happen because of you taking another role, that same demon woman does want you to win. Everything Kasyrra does reverts back at the key factor, you being amazing, like a baby duck with this mental and emotional imprint of you, always in her mind

Deep down Savin wants you to enjoy his fantasy world which is filled to the brim with what he enjoys, but also hates you for not fully embracing all that is inside, almost as if you were rejecting the wonderful thing he has done for you

Pride and dishonesty, and there you have it

You have no idea what power fantasy is, do you? And being so weirdly aggressive at the same time about it, you got a personal vendetta or something?

Case in point: Dune.
A seemingly regular guy, suddenly discovers that he is a prophesied god-emperor of mankind, and goes on an epic revenge journey against the killers of his father.
Tolkien hated it when he first read Dune.
And it's a world-renowned classic.

Going worm mode as a power fantasy

To be honest, "Realism" is a Trap. All stories are unrealistic in their own way. Even fiction works like les misérables feels heightened, theatrical narrative designed to explore philosophical ideas about justice, mercy, and redemption.
Honestly, power fantasys are more about being emotionally true, the "realism" of a power fantasy isn't in the events themselves, but in the core emotional experience it provides: the thrill of competence, the satisfaction of mastery, the weight of responsibility, the joy of earned victory. You can make a very relatable story if you know how emotions works.
Besides, sometimes real events are even more crazy than fiction.

Yeah, in a really condensed way, deep down a power fantasy exist to give people the feeling to be at the top at least for once

You could take something like, let's say, Saint Seiya and find that is a constant power fantasy like a good shonen should be while also, being full of tragedy

Even third rate, first episode bad guy with zero relevancy gets to be the top dog for a second and have is death elevated and no, this is not an excuse to post more Saint Seiya clips I swear

 

[CrimsonSongbird1982]

Going worm mode as a power fantasy

Would you still tolerate me if I was a worm?

Is a power fantasy, you, the champion, become the most influential person ever; loved by the gods, cherished by whole kingdoms, respected and revered in all lands as far as your eyesight might reach. Everyone who hates the champion is also depicted as a sorry loser no worthy of any attention or as a creepy freak no one really likes, and as much as your character is presented as a inconsequential blob playing a part because the gods don't care, they do still care enough to have you around fixing this or that issue, they want you

I do agree with everything else but Nakano is in camp hate boner and we all know how much Tobs loves his generic MC shitsune. Also does the last part count if there are so many other characters introduced who are better suited to save the issue and just don't outside of Savin confirming that even in most bad ends someone will save the world?

Even third rate, first episode bad guy with zero relevancy gets to be the top dog for a second and have is death elevated and no, this is not an excuse to post more Saint Seiya clips I swear

I only know Saint Seiya from Jump Force and even then it's because that was when the AI really started to read inputs and ratchet up the difficulty with a Saint Seiya character.

 

[YouShallNotLol]

I'm lost is that actually a thing they do over there now?

Evil and intimidating hater: YouShallNotLol.
Congrats on the Yakuza style boss intro.

I'm mostly joking, but wouldn't be surprised either way.

Anyways, here:

 

[Jbuster]

I cant believe all of this started with me sharing some badass 90s style fanfic of baldurs gate lmao.

That's how much of a barren hellscape this game is, that we're willing to sperg page after page about something that Savin doesn't even care about

As I said before, this thread is a magical place

Spoiler: Now how about I show everyone of you something terrible?

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

 

[yuzuyo]

I give up on the rest. You either contradict yourself or can't present a clear point aside from you hate power fantasies and that CoC2 being a power fantasy wouldn't fix its problems.

It's like I'm talking with children with special needs, I swear to God. Why don't you quote which part I contradicted myself instead of making worthless statements? And I said he could go and make it a proper power fantasy since it's halfway there. My whole point was that the game is shit not because it isn't power fantasy, but because the devs antagonize the community. It could be power fantasy and shit and it could be good without power fantasy. You don't know how to read, I stated this MULTIPLE times. And you wonder why I'm aggressive. READ.

Amigo,WHO do you think buys isekai garbage? WHO BUYS IT? It's a genre made solely for escapism and that's exactly the description he gave me for power fantasy besides the non-answer "wish fulfillment." Fucking genre made for hopeless youths of Asia. Anyone with eyes can see that.

Oh, and good job not answering any question I made. Embarrassing.

 

[CrimsonSongbird1982]

It's like I'm talking with children with special needs, I swear to God. Why don't you quote which part I contradicted myself instead of making worthless statements? And I said he could go and make it a proper power fantasy since it's halfway there. My whole point was that the game is shit not because it isn't power fantasy, but because the devs antagonize the community. It could be power fantasy and shit and it could be good without power fantasy. You don't know how to read, I stated this MULTIPLE times. And you wonder why I'm aggressive. READ.

Amigo,WHO do you think buys isekai garbage? WHO BUYS IT? It's a genre made solely for escapism and that's exactly the description he gave me for power fantasy besides the non-answer "wish fulfillment." Fucking genre made for hopeless youths of Asia. Anyone with eyes can see that.

I already quoted an example earlier of you contradicting and you ignored it. All you're doing is resorting to personal attacks now because your position is being challenged or you refuse to articulate your point. Nobody here can figure out what you're saying or rambling about. I'm done. If you can't respond to points raised without referring to people as special needs or illiterate then you have nothing of value to say on this subject and I'm not getting a warning for going off topic for trying to understand someone who refuses to engage in good faith.

 

[yuzuyo]

I already quoted an example earlier of you contradicting and you ignored it. All you're doing is resorting to personal attacks now because your position is being challenged or you refuse to articulate your point. Nobody here can figure out what you're saying or rambling about. I'm done. If you can't respond to points raised without referring to people as special needs or illiterate then you have nothing of value to say on this subject and I'm not getting a warning for going off topic for trying to understand someone who refuses to engage in good faith.

I answered your question about my definition and you dodged it like a weasel. Here you're doing it again. If you're too much of a chickenshit to be truthful, don't bother replying and trying to get the last word, it's even more pathetic.

All your responses have been asking questions and ignoring every answer I gave. Why the fuck did you ask a question if you're going to gloss over it? It's easier to be weasel, yeah?

 

[SatanHGG]

It's easier to be weasel, yeah?

Is this all about what constitutes a power fantasy or was there a point to it earlier that got lost in the weeds of this? If so, you might benefit from taking a breath, resetting yourself, and articulating the original point.
If it's "power fantasy is bad" then I think we're past that already. Anything is good if the writer does it well. Anything is bad if the writer does it poorly.
If it's "power fantasy is [this definition]" then I don't know what the point is.
If it's "CoC2 being anti-power-fantasy is not bad because [these points about why you dislike power fantasy]" then I might even agree with your reasoning, myself. Not that my opinion matters, since you weren't arguing with me. I think CoC2 is bad for a lot of its execution, but the idea that aiming for anti-power-fantasy is bad just falls back to that earlier point that anything can be good. It being against power fantasy doesn't make it bad, it's that the people working on it handle that goal poorly.

 

[Neighborsknowmyname]

Oh god, the update is trash... and It's on my birthday too bro...

 

[yuzuyo]

It being against power fantasy doesn't make it bad

That's what I said. I think it's something that holds back the potential of some works, but I definitely think it fits in some cases. Like old as fuck Doom. Not as silly as it is today, but a human going apeshit against demons is still fantastical enough. And I like Fallout, Mass Effect and Dragon Age.

I just don't think not being focused on power fantasy or being against it is the reason the game is so bad. TiTS is a power fantasy and I'd say it has a bunch of problems, despite how much I like it. Notice how people constantly shit on TiTS about futas. It would be the same thing here. There would be something else for people to latch on to. Probably futas, too.

And again, it's a porn game. Power fantasy is fucking fine, expected even. It's all about wish fulfillment. I just said that I agree with Savin about not liking it and some tribalistic clowns (not everyone I replied to) took it personally.