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No, I'm saying the champ doesn't care.
It's not important to the champ. The act of doing so would in fact be actively detrimental to the champ.
I thought this was an RPG, with our own characters. Your version of the champ may be content to let that slide, and that is fine. But I find it more than reasonable, understandable, and logical for the revelation that one of the foundations of the world being a lie, would very much interest the Champ as I play them.
 

Thisguy2

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Jan 23, 2020
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Yknow my expectations for this game were getting low. But seeing as these devs are determined to ruin
ty bruddah for showing me da wei.

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Yknow my expectations were low reading about these devs but damn. How masochistic are these whales that they can tolerate that level of disrespect and e-begging.
 

muschi26

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Jun 22, 2019
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In your example there'd be no point in tfs having stats. If it would be balanced for those two characters to be able to do the same fight, but the weaker one only having slightly more of a challenge, then the stats would have to be small to the point of being flavor text, and would be restricted from stuff like permanently flying. You'd get like dragon arms having a bonus of 1 hp, otherwise fights wouldn't be slightly tougher for the weaker, it'd be sgt rufus thundercock, second of his name, having armor pen to compensate the player having possible tf armor bonuses so a basic pc tank would be ripped a new one. however it's a party based combat system, so if each party member has bonuses, then the pc could be a supportive class and do fine, but your tank and dps would be the ones doing the heavy lifting. You couldn't tank the same hits or hit the same enemies because your character wouldn't be able to compete with accuracy bonuses, dodge bonuses, armor pen. In theory you could, it'd seem like you did it as a weaker class but in reality you'd be better replaced with any companion, or you'd say "i did it! i used 15 elixirs and a ability to not die for a few rounds but i mean i did it!" >see 7 hour long ffx level 1 bosses. Similarly to how you can't build a tank with only physical abilities, have him put all his stats into charisma willpower and cunning, give him underwear, and have the game balance so he'd do just as well as ice knight brint. You could compromise and make him a paladin and give him a few "acceptable" tfs but you can't just have the balance scale to whatever a player would do as foolproof protection. Something has to be a loss condition, or tfs just don't have any stats, the power is transferred to other places, and you avoid all of that, and people can rp whatever they want however they want and not rely solely on their party or exploiting game mechanics.
I'm not saying combat should be exactly the same for the regular human and the 4' goblin, except that the latter has to use an extra potion. Assuming there are three difficulties of encounter: easy, medium, and hard; and that for a regular human, these are respectively: a breeze (you can go through several encounters like this without healing), a bit of a challenge (you'll need to heal every so often, or play more defensively to conserve HP), and a real challenge (you'll need to use consumables, ultimate abilities, etc., to get through it)—assuming this state of balance for a regular human, then for a weak goblin, the same three encounters might look like this: the "easy" and "medium" encounters would correspond roughly to the "medium" and "hard" encounters from the perspective of a human, whereas the "hard" encounter would not be possible, and your character would have to run away. Now, this is from the perspective of traditional combat, i.e. swinging swords and flinging spells until your opponent dies, but seeing that this is supposed to be an RPG, there could be additional methods of resolving encounters. Maybe as a weak goblin, you can trick the "hard" encounters—which you're no match for in traditional combat—with a sleeping potion, or a rock trap, etc.

The only real problem is when it comes to bosses, since bosses are usually gating content, which means the PC has to be able to get past them, but here too, the solution is just to include more non-combat solutions. In TiTS, you can sweet-talk your way through a lot of boss encounters to avoid fighting; or, you can just lose (and get a defeat sex scene), then move on: it's not like CoC2, where you're forced into beating the boss, in traditional combat, otherwise you get a game over and have to reload.

The guy beat kas multiple times but it was meant to be a encounter you lost. The dev's responses were poor, they should have been a bit more appreciative someone put that much time and effort into their game, but it boiled down to being invulnerable, buffing yourself, and praying for a crit. Unless you built a very specific way planning for it, had revive items and the revive belt, it wasn't something doable. He also did it with a lust build I didn't see but had enough power to nuke that encounter. She had reasonable stats so you might feel like you did something but if you ever actually beat her there, there was 4th wall breaking text about you cheating. Him beating her wasn't the real problem, though. The problem was that exact formula could be used on any enemy in the entire game before the changes. Who cares about a superboss, a monster in the abyss, whatever, invulnerability, crit roll, if you fail to crit, revive and try up to 2 more times, job done. It was a hole in the armor of every future encounter basically unless they started giving everything ludicrous amounts of hp which would make people playing normally feel like everything was a sponge.
That's what I'm saying: they shouldn't balance the game around exploits. You think if they left that it, then everyone was going to start stacking invulnerability items, and saving and reloading every fight while praying for a crit? Of course not. It's a role-playing game, and anybody that's ignoring that for the sake of min-maxing and intentionally trying to break the game like this is going to be in the minority. And again, what's the issue if it's possible? It's a single-player game, so anyone breaking the combat system is ultimately just ruining their own experience—no one else is affected. Now, of course you don't want exploits to be lying out in the open, that just any random player could stumble upon them; but if it requires a specific build, as well as continuously saving and reloading for that one perfect fight, then it's highly unlikely that casual players will manage to ruin the game for themselves.

Also, again, there are difficulty options, which I admit are generally a crutch for poor balancing (basically the devs saying "we can't be bothered to balance our game, so here, do it yourself"), but in this case, if someone wants to make themselves an OP 10' monstrosity but still wants a challenge, they can turn up the difficulty, while someone who wants to play as a 4' goblin twink but still doesn't want combat to be a hassle can turn it down.
 

Shiro15

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Mar 15, 2019
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No. They don't need to be explored.

Any media with any kind of lore has a crapload of plot threads that never get pulled. From Skyrim, to Destiny, to D&D to Mass Effect - plot details and happenings that could be huge given the context don't always see any kind of exploration. They don't need to. The world has a history, and some funky stuff has happened, but your hero doesn't need to intimately concern himself with every aspect of it.
I agree not all plot threads need to be explored. For example in Mass Effect 2 when you're recruiting Tali it is revealed that suns are dying faster then they should. This plot thread is never explored later.

But, in the case of Kass and the secrets surrounding the gods, well we regularly bump into them. Most factions seem to have some way of communicating with their deity. And once again the case of Komari getting punished when they fail their gods. They absolutely play a role in how this world works. And can't but ignored as a cool bit of detail. There is a a whole god war that decimated the world.

Edit: It should also be noted over explaining things can take away some of the magic. (Which is what I believe Skan is getting at.) Which I would also agree with, as the Reapers having their whole entire origin explained in the Leviathan DLC did ruin them for me.

Though I don't believe this is whats going on here. I think certain in game lore hints at things that will effect the pc discesion to pledge their allegiance to a deity. I think this is more akin to how gods work in mortal kombat. They are a part of the worlds lore and play an important role in that games world builiding and can't really be ingnored because of that.

No, I'm saying the champ doesn't care.
It's not important to the champ. The act of doing so would in fact be actively detrimental to the champ.

Of course the gods care, given two of them ask you not to do it, and of course religious people would care - but to the champ and his mission, it isn't a concern.
I would say its important to my champion that became Keros's Champion. Can't see how it wouldn't be if he now controls my characters soul. In that play-through I did it believing I would get a better role with the Kitsunes, but yeah I'll go sit back in my corner, as a filthy savage can't possibly understand the politics and gods. I'll leave it to Kiyoko and Kinu
 
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Skandranon

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The question is impossible to answer because it's the truth. They have never acted out of goodness, only self-service. They could have nipped Kas in the bud, as soon as she appeared. Lumia certainly did to stop the wraith, why didn't she appear to stop Kas? She doesn't threaten the foodsource, and thus can be allowed to do whatever.
Doesn't hold up. Kass has and does threaten it directly - she literally takes souls. She in fact did exactly that thing on a mass scale, taking a crapload of Mallachs followers souls and trading them back to him for information which he himself said he couldn't refuse.

And honestly, gods not interfering directly with things they can have humans handle is....almost all gods. In all fiction. Ever. Why would these ones be different?


Wraiths' primary foodsource is souls, we haven't witnessed the actual act because we only ever see the gods when they deem it acceptable.
And these former wraiths are something else now. This is a theory that isn't supported by literally anything else in game. Nowhere is it suggested that the gods are keeping people to eat their souls, and I kinda doubt it's going that way.

There is something to be said that the gods treat their cattle decently, but obviously not everyone would be okay with that. Plus, the horrific realization that one day your immortal soul will be eaten.
That realization would be horrible if it ever happened. But given that there's zero reason for the champ or anyone else to ever think that - it's not really relevant to the situation.

Note, what you say are things that are unimportant to the champ are for your champ. That's how your champ feels, it's after all an RPG.
To an extent. More true in a tabletop RPG.
I can't, for instance, say that my character in Baldurs Gate doesn't want to go after Irenicus - he has to. Can't say that my character in Planesacpe Torment has no interest in recovering his memories and finding out his past ‐ he has to. Mass Effect, I can pretend all I want that Shepard doesn't give a crap about saving the universe - but it won't hold up with NY actions.

Your character, my character, everyone's character, is primarily concerned with Kas, the person who is directly and immediately threatening their existence. No getting around that.

Nareva could easily snuff you out if you tried to, and the devs have hinted on their discord that you're subconsciously manipulated into just not saying anything. Does that sound... good to you?
Eh, your average Greco-Roman god would've turned you into a dove or some nonsense.
 
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Wrynn13

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I agree not all plot threads need to be explored. For example in Mass Effect 2 when you're recruiting Tali it is revealed that suns are dying faster then they should. This plot thread is never explored later.

But, in the case of Kass and the secrets surrounding the gods, well we regularly bump into them. Most factions seem to have some way of communicating with their deity. And once again the case of Komari get punished when they fall their gods. The absolutely play a role in how this world works.

Edit: It should also be noted over explaining things can take away some of the magic. (Which is what I believe Skan is getting at.) Which I would also agree with, as the Reapers having their whole entire origin explained in the Leviathan DLC did ruin them for me.

Though I don't believe this is whats going on here. I think certain in game lore hints at things that will effect the pc discesion to pledge their algence to a deity. I think this is more akin to how gods work in mortal kombat. They are a part of the worlds lore and play an important role that games world builiding and can't really be ingnored because of that.
The sun death was actually supposed to be a major plot point of ME3 but people figured it out so the devs threw a fit and scrapped it, so CoC2 devs don't have a monopoly on being petty I guess...
 

Shiro15

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The sun death was actually supposed to be a major plot point of ME3 but people figured it out so the devs threw a fit and scrapped it, so CoC2 devs don't have a monopoly on being petty I guess...
I heard about that rumor, but I never knew if it was true or not.
 

Wrynn13

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I heard about that rumor, but I never knew if it was true or not.
They literally changed the game ending because of it. And then threw another fit when people didn't like that. And then the ME cash cow died so maybe the devs of CoC2 should think about that when they bring up their "next game" talk.
 

mrttao

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She doesn't threaten the foodsource, and thus can be allowed to do whatever.
but she is. that is literally what demons do.

corruption is a self replicating magical energy that twists everything around it. it twists people, it twists the terrain. when a person has a critical mass of corruption, it pushes their soul out of their body and solidifies it into lethicite. crystals of solidified soul that can be used to fuel magic. The former person is now a demon, with corruption taking the place of a soul.

demons can eat souls too, which slowly over time accumulate, replenishing them ability to feel emotions and have desires beyond sadism. but by that point their personality has been so warped they don't want to change. and they are still super corrupted so they still enjoy it.

Anyways, demon invasion is a direct threat to the food source of deities who eat souls.
 

Tau_Iota

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You keep insisting Kas is evil and I've agreed every time. I have not said she's not evil. I don't understand the purpose of telling me she's evil when I said "Yes, she's evil."

Our gods not interfering is different, because they almost never have. These gods break precedent (much like Greek gods, who weren't perceived as "good" in the sense that we ascribe to deities) and actively dick around with people. In some fiction, yeah sure the gods are active forces that for some reason don't get involved. But those gods are actually the gods they claim to be. Therefore, it doesn't have the same weight as a monster pretending to be that god. The intrigue comes from the fact that it's pretending to be a god and claiming to be so good and wonderful, and then they sit there and watch.

And these former wraiths are something else now.
Never has it been stated in or out of the game that they ever stopped being wraiths. They are still wraiths, they just have higher brain function now. It's safe to infer that the wraiths continue eating... I mean why wouldn't they...?

That realization would be horrible if it ever happened. But given that there's zero reason for the champ or anyone else to ever think that - it's not really relevant to the situation.
What do you expect someone would think after being told that the souleaters became gods? That they stopped being souleaters? Not to mention, wraiths eating your soul = actual permadeath. Demon fucks out your soul, you're corrupted but you're still kicking. It's extremely relevant, as well. Is the world truly safe when there's still soulsuckers cosplaying gods?

Also sure, RPGs do have some rails. However, take Daggerfall. You could completely ignore the main quest if you wanted and just live your best life. Not to mention this game was intended to be closer to a TTRPG than a video game RPG, so bringing up Baldur's Gate and Daggerfall is a bit meaningless given that's not the type of game they're trying to make.

Also you can get around it. Never interact with the main quest,and chill out in the starter areas. You have now abandoned Savarrah, and are free to live a happy life in your rent-free inn
 

mrttao

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You keep insisting Kas is evil
he said nothing of the sort in the post you quoted. He said she is evil much earlier in the argument.
But the post you quoted is just him correctly pointing out that Kas does in fact threaten the food source of the gods. something you claimed she is not doing and also that is the god's bottom line.

Kas takes souls from the good, which is their food.
 

Tau_Iota

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but she is. that is literally what demons do.

corruption is a self replicating magical energy that twists everything around it. it twists people, it twists the terrain. when a person has a critical mass of corruption, it pushes their soul out of their body and solidifies it into lethicite. crystals of solidified soul that can be used to fuel magic. The former person is now a demon, with corruption taking the place of a soul.

demons can eat souls too, which slowly over time accumulate, replenishing them ability to feel emotions and have desires beyond sadism. but by that point their personality has been so warped they don't want to change. and they are still super corrupted so they still enjoy it.

Anyways, demon invasion is a direct threat to the food source of deities who eat souls.
See the devs fucked up because there's the "soul" that demons fuck out of you, and then there's the Qi-type soul that the wraiths eat. Demons don't touch your Qi, only your soul. If anything, Kasyrra hasn't been stopped because of the possibility of her exploding the population and providing so much more food for them.
 

Tau_Iota

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he said nothing of the sort in the post you quoted. He said she is evil much earlier in the argument.
But the post you quoted is home correctly pointing out that Kas does in fact threaten the food source of the gods. something you claimed she is not doing and also that is the god's bottom line.

Kas takes souls from the good, which is their food.
See above for the majority, but yes it isn't explicitly said "Kas is evil" but like yes we understand her goals. However, she doesn't threaten the foodsource. Wraiths and demons can easily coexist
 

mrttao

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See the devs fucked up because there's the "soul" that demons fuck out of you, and then there's the Qi-type soul that the wraiths eat. Demons don't touch your Qi, only your soul. If anything, Kasyrra hasn't been stopped because of the possibility of her exploding the population and providing so much more food for them.
seriously? that is their explanation?... ouch my brain meats hurt.

hmm, it sounds like those "gods" would actually be supporting her out of the misguided belief they are going to have a ton more (demonic) worshipers. Even though demons don't worship gods, they corrupt them
 
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Khuntai

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The background lore excuse is a shitty argument because the the twist in question is something foundational that would flip the whole universe on its head were it to get out, its not just a neat little fun fact like how the mass effect works or how the bloodlines work in Tolkien elf society. There was literally and I mean *literally* no reason to reveal it just to leave the thread hanging. It's almost like the devs were trying to jerk themselves off about their super epic world, which wouldn't be the first time I suppose. They also are good at undermining the player, like how apparently Sanders and Garths wife could beat the PC together without any effort or how Kas canonically would be defeated by another mortal every single time if the PC were to fail. Screenshot_20220821-180147_Discord.jpg
 
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And these former wraiths are something else now. This is a theory that isn't supported by literally anything else in game. Nowhere is it suggested that the gods are keeping people to eat their souls, and I kinda doubt it's going that way.
I thought the gods just gained a sense of morality while being wraiths. Thus, they disguised themselves as the gods but they are still wraiths under that cover.
 

Tau_Iota

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seriously? that is their explanation?... ouch my brain meats hurt.

hmm, it sounds like those "gods" would actually be supporting her out of the misguided belief they are going to have a ton more (demonic) worshipers. Even though demons don't worship gods, they corrupt them
Exactly, they're uh... not good. Also they're not gods, they're wraiths. They are not corruptible like Marae, as Marae was as much a part of the world as she was a God. These are creatures outside of reality let into the world by wizards before the fall of civilization. You get an in-person example from Kassyra at the Winter Palace.
 
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