Others Corruption of Champions II [v0.8.16] [Savin/Salamander Studios]

[MoneyMan181]

the emotion is in the premise, the execution is another matter altogether and i'd rather not pretend any part of the game is exactly heart wrenching. choosing to save a life is, in a vacuum, more engaging than being forced to save your own skin.

And wouldn't choosing between saving one life versus many be even more engaging than that? I don't see the point of talking about a premise rather than the execution, at least in this point of discussion.

i don't see it as the game going out of its way to shove cait in, i see it as the game not giving other party members their due screentime. i don't see how talking shit about cait as a character contributes to solving this problem.

To the first sentence: Those two are essentially the same thing. Regardless, those companions will not ever reach her level of content. That would require a bevy of content to match the temple, to be involved in content that doesn't concern them(Marrying Atani), have their own quest that ties into the main story, have as many different character interactions as she does, ability to have multiple TFs, etc. Maybe if she were to never get content again most companions would be able to catch up, but we all know that isn't happening.
To the second sentence: Most people are memeing when that happens. How would us being constructive about it even help solve the problem in the first place? You said it yourself that criticism shouldn't be brought to the devs so nothing we say here will solve the problem.

while it makes sense for a literal prostitute enchantress to appeal to everyone,

Not really. Lots of people would dislike or be uncomfortable around a sex worker that is constantly trying to get in everybody's pants for a multitude of reasons. Everybody liking her anyway kinda highlights the mary sue-ness.

if everyone is a mary sue, but cait is getting the brunt of the hate, then clearly being a mary sue isn't the root cause.

You said it yourself, she has much more content than most other companions. This means there is a spotlight on her and thus all the problems with her are more easily highlighted. It's a lot easier to ignore on others because they aren't as divisive as characters and the game doesn't constantly bring them up.

if your first reaction to a literal break in is to talk it out you're certainly a nobler and braver man than i. it is one thing if they were actually a village out in the open fully expecting traders and travellers, and another when it's a foreign colony deliberately hidden with magic and very much not expecting visits to even be possible

I feel like most people would scream "WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING IN MY HOUSE, GET OUT NOW" rather than immediately stab the person. If the intruder in question is shown to trying to calm the inhabitant and talk to them, I don't feel like it's too much of a stretch to say some people would at least be a little open to hear what they have to say.

if you want to claim to not want full control, but then complain about the only parts of her you don't have control over, you're suddenly a lot less convincing.

...Why? That's like saying: "if you want to kill Hitler but then say you aren't a serial killer, you're suddenly a lot less convincing". The "only parts of her you don't have control over" would be literally everything about her. You have zero control over her and VERY little when it comes to raising her. God forbid I just want to sit down and have a genuine heart-to-heart with my daughter and have her be open to how I feel as a parent. I guess that makes it less convincing to you for some reason.

it's the same thing with her marriage. it makes sense for an outsider to not have a say in a semi-political arrangement, parent or not, and colder things fudalist japan have done for the sake of social hiearchy and tradition. TOBS was too preoccupied with injecting the historical influence to consider player reaction which makes the outrage justified, but the alternative would also be far less interesting.

When she marries farmer dude, it's for the opposite of a political arrangement so this argument doesn't hold up for that version of her. Again, I don't care about the feudalist Japan comparison. This is a fictional fantasy world with a fictional race of fox-people. He is not bound to real-life parallels. Any attempt at deflecting criticism by saying this feels incredibly dishonest.

And the alternative would be as interesting as he has the drive to make it to be. You don't know how it would turn out so you can't even say that as if it's a fact.

it's more productive to point out how silly it was to give a single piece of side content that big of a scope and that it should probably be avoided in the future.

Trust me, this has been repeated more times than I can count.Though this whole situation could've been avoided had he just not decided to shunt this unjustified dislike of the Champ onto Kinu. Hell, keep the weird abusive Kiyoko thing if you really want drama and have the content be about dealing with that with Kinu.

i literally just went through the headpat ceremony yesterday so the part about kiyoko is provably wrong.

Having one instance of it doesn't mean much considering how different their society is. I'm almost positive at one point she even says something along the lines of, "There's not much point me trying to explain our culture, it's too complex for you to understand.".

again i feel like i'm playing a different version of the game here. the MC is intergrated into kitsune society far more than the rest of the game world, considering it's literally a magically hidden tree house club, and where our outsider status do come into play it's not out of bigotry or dickishness.

I'll be honest, maybe you're right and it's being made a bigger deal than it really is. I really couldn't be bothered to go through the content again to check. I will say though, that one of my only takeaways from that content is me feeling unwelcome and unwanted there. I have a strong feeling TOBS could have done better when it comes to that.

never occured to you the act of detachment includes changing the name?

...By adding a 2? You have to be joking, right? Otherwise, I'm not sure what you're talking about.

to repeat myself: you are paying for their product, not their time or engagement. if an aspiring writer wishes to learn, they have resources dedicated to that made by people who aren't just qualified to create, but also qualified to teach. it's a waste of time on the student's part for banking on the uncertain byproducts of confronting creators with criticism, and a waste of time on the creators' part for indulging them. the potential usefulness you listed can just as well be gained by the creator sitting on a sidelines watching people discuss, argue and agree on points amongst themselves.

No because the input of the creator can completely change the perspective of the content. The context of scenes and the entire narrative can change if the writer explains their thought process behind things. It is also much more luck-based if those theoretical discussions are fruitful in terms of helpfulness if the creator isn't present. Maybe nobody says anything in response, maybe it just becomes one big shitpost fest. The chances of the discussion actually being a boon increases so much more if the creator takes part in it.

there's a reason education isn't free.

To imply a writer taking maybe 30 minutes out of their day to respond to criticism is the same as a college course is a tad silly.

you said yourself the bar for what they do could not be any lower, yet here assumes they have valuable knowledge they could impart if they'd only explain. you'll forgive me if all this strikes me as a little insincere.

Well first off the bar couldn't be lower for actual non-smut writing but for actually writing porn? I'll say many things about Savin and Co but that is one of the few things they undeniably get right(barring TOBS). That could be valuable knowledge to some but since I know odds of someone asking about that is extremely small so I'll even disregard that for you.

Getting insight as to how and why a creator does things, even if those things are bad and the reasoning flawed, can be a good example of what NOT to do. It allows people to learn how to avoid the same mistakes the creators in question made. That and even a broken clock is right twice a day. All the writers do get some things right which would only make their thoughts on the matter all the more interesting.

it's not my intention to say the creator should not have to deal with criticism, only that they shouldn't be confronted directly about them.

How is this not the same thing? You're saying we should not bring the criticism to them and that they should only seek it out themselves but what if they just never see said criticism? What if they're not lucky to be big enough(which most writers definitely are not) to have a separate forum discussing their works? What then? And why would them experiencing said criticism in a separate forum suddenly make it okay?

pressuring people who aren't open to changing their minds can trigger knee-jerk defenses. which is referred to as back fire effects. they are the correct term for the specific effects at work as coined by Cook & Lewandowsky (2011). belief perseverance refers to the result and general topic of study. you'd know this if you read your way past the first sentence on wikipedia, put the term in google scholar, or just do a ctrl+f.

Apologies, you're right. I was sleep-deprived and only skimmed through the thing. Though I can't help but feel like the last sentence is just a tad bit passive aggressive.

and yes, there also needs to be time for the creators to confront their own egos, i don't think it's reasonable to demand a proper artist to have no ego and be perfectly receptive to advice and critique, let alone for it to be even possible.

Agreed. However I also don't think it's reasonable to coddle them and their egos just because they're incapable of proper introspection.

this should not be so wild a claim to anyone who had worked with big projects.

This makes it sound like you have experience with such things. If you do, I'm curious what that would be.

as a consumer(piracy or no) you may feel you have the right to confront creators with criticism and recieve a reply in return, and given the right perspective you may very well do, but that does not change the fact that being pressured to perform this process in short order and coming up with a reply is less effective when it comes to actually improving the product.

Again, I would agree. The thing I'm curious about would be who is pressuring them to do it in short order? I don't think I've ever seen a case of someone blatantly asking for their criticism to be replied to, nevertheless quickly. It's solely on the creator in question if they feel this way without prompting.

as it stands most creative teams perform this process internally in private and does not extend the critic a notification or explanation afterwards. for a good reason.

This isn't the case for this project, though. Unless they have some stealth critic on the team reviewing their stuff with no credit given that you know about, I'm not sure why you bring this up.

I expect people to meet me half way when it comes to surface level research as i will do for them when and if the need arises.

Didn't I already say twice I didn't actually know that was the official term and thus I didn't feel the need to look that up? I'm not sure what else you want from me, dude.

if you don't intend to come off as abrasive then don't be abrasive, it's shockingly easy with written text.

Just read Wrynn's post. I did not intend to be abrasive at any point when writing any of this. Trust me, it would've been a lot more noticeable if I actually wanted to be.

Thank you for being open to dialogue, though. Refreshing to hear a different take.

 

[Skandranon]

Refreshing to hear a different take.

Heeey.

 

[MoneyMan181]

Heeey.

You're included in that too. I don't always say it but still applies.

 

[Kallisto]

On the topic of people in the kitsune den's attitude towards the player.

Spoiler: It's ya boi, Nakano

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The kitsune don't curse you out and flip you the bird, but your outsider status is plainly stated to you by almost everyone in the den. This is a dialogue you get when you go to do your first mission for Nakano. I believe the completion of this first quest is necessary to unlock a few things with the kitsune. But to me it came kind of out of nowhere. It's like you're a newbie at work and see your coworker struggling with something. You go over to help and they reply "Oh you want to help? That'll be great but you know this doesn't make us friends right? You'll never be welcomed on the team no matter what you do".

Unnecessary and completely unsubtle, but it gets the point across if you're trying to make someone feel excluded (which was Tobs' aim with the kitsune and their not-japanese society, no matter how many you can bang or help). Nakano saying "you'll never be treated as one of our own, even if everyone will be too polite to state the fact directly" is especially funny because several of the kitsune npcs say this kind of shit right to your face.

 

[fetishgirl]

alright if that's what you want.

if your first reaction to a literal break in is to talk it out you're certainly a nobler and braver man than i. it is one thing if they were actually a village out in the open fully expecting traders and travellers, and another when it's a foreign colony deliberately hidden with magic and very much not expecting visits to even be possible. they have more in common with the orc tribe than with hawkethorne. with the tone of the game being what it is (sans gwyer quest) a scuffle isn't something i hold a grudge over and all this still rings to me as people being a little more sour than is warranted.

as for kinu, i'm again fine with not being treated like dad of the year. while i'm not satisfied with TOBS' execution i understand his approach. children resent their parents for all sorts of reasons and those reasons are often out of said parents' hands. i appreciate him trying to bring this bit of reality in even if it's in a silly porn game. if you want to claim to not want full control, but then complain about the only parts of her you don't have control over, you're suddenly a lot less convincing.

it's the same thing with her marriage. it makes sense for an outsider to not have a say in a semi-political arrangement, parent or not, and colder things fudalist japan have done for the sake of social hiearchy and tradition. TOBS was too preoccupied with injecting the historical influence to consider player reaction which makes the outrage justified, but the alternative would also be far less interesting.

there is an argument to be made regarding the lack of further input on kinu's development. unfortunate, but kitsune content is already extremely bloated for side content and i doubt family therapy is something the game is desperate for. as i see it, its absence is a valid piece of criticism but ultimately an inactionable one. it's more productive to point out how silly it was to give a single piece of side content that big of a scope and that it should probably be avoided in the future.


you forgot the impregnate part. sex is food, that's one thing, sure, but being allowed to knocking up one of their shrine maidens is not quite what i consider unwelcome. the NPCs are more than happy to explain to you their roles and their culture, and provide you with their service. i literally just went through the headpat ceremony yesterday so the part about kiyoko is provably wrong.

again i feel like i'm playing a different version of the game here. the MC is intergrated into kitsune society far more than the rest of the game world, considering it's literally a magically hidden tree house club, and where our outsider status do come into play it's not out of bigotry or dickishness. in nature it's once again akin to the orc tribes, which drives me to think TOBS' reputation plays a not insignificant role in how much criticism it recieves.

Good to see another like Skandranon with differing opinions. I won't get involved with the Cait stuff and as for the issue with critcism I don't think you and I can find middle ground I am firmly on Moneyman's side so we will agree to disagree and I don't want to go off-topic.

With the Kitsune den its always nice to get different opinions but what you have written so far makes me think you are not up to date with all the content. The reason I think this is, that I too was like you and didn't fully understand the level of hatred for the Kitsune den until I dived deeper into the lore. The Raphael content is what changed everything for me. Don't get me wrong like Moneyman I had issues with what happened to Kinu but I was open to future updates improving on those bumpy patches in the relationship between parent and daughter. If you do know about the Raphael content I would love to hear your take on it and how you think it improves the narrative.

However considering your new I don't think you understand how petty ToBS is as a person either. To sum it up he has jealousy issues with one of the 'waifus' of the game written by their colleague to the point that Savin the project lead allowed ToBS to write an Out of character rape loss scene for the waifu character out of pure spite. It is also on record that the writer of the character was very upset with that scene and was shocked that Savin allowed it. What makes it even worse is that Skandranon will tell you that despite our complaining here Kiyoko does extremely well in the polls and comes between 1st-3rd throughout the years. So Kiyoko is very well liked but because she is currently losing to his colleague's character it drives him mad with rage.

That will give you background context that people here don't have an issue with just ToBS writing but his professional demeanour with his colleagues in public. Also before I go I want directly address some of what you have written feel free to correct me on this if I am wrong.

1st: I thought there were multiple ways of entering the kitsune den wasn't one of them being told how to enter it by a denzien of the den I think Kurako? Don't see why this couldn't have been settled peacefully with this route rather than being forced as you said to break and enter.

2nd: I think your Kinu point comes across as a little contradictory. On one hand you are acknowledging its a porn game and you appreciate reality being brought to it. Then you go on to say I quote 'i doubt family therapy is something the game is desperate for'.
So my question is why is the drama of Kinu being a spoiled teenager or young adult with essentially 'Daddy' issues acceptable outside of the norm of porn content but resolving said content isn't?
I think here you are trying to justify your own personal taste in content while dismissive of Moneyman's own.

3rd: Again with the Kinu point I think you aren't seeing the fact that no matter what you do your good intentions as the player character are used against you. If you encourage independence its basically why wasn't Daddy around to protect me from Mum's traditional nature. If you encourage support for Kiyoko's teachings its basically why wasn't Daddy there when Mother has been supporting me this whole time. Both outcomes are awful no matter what you pick. I agree with you that it gives a real feel to the situation and its a nice touch but not being able resolve it makes me feel like shit as a player.
So do you find depressing realism that cannot be overcome an enjoyable feature in a porn game?

4th: I kind of agree with both you and Moneyman on the feudal Japan thing. I agree with you that ToBS was sticking to a theme and that can strengthen the narrative but I also agree with Moneyman in the way that its ToBS own fictional creation and it led to the Kitsune den being too narrow minded. My question to you is that do you really think it paid off ToBS approach when there is no true conflict resolution?

5th: Regarding side content I think expansive side content can really compliment the overall story and most people feel the same. People here aren't upset the Kitsune content exists in fact people had high expectations and were looking forward to it. People just hate how it was handled. For example the most hyped content even more so than the contiunation of the main story is the Brienne family marriage arc. That will be fairly extensive. Also People were happy for more Berwyn content until they saw how it was executed. Is extensive side content in a porn game that focuses on family and sexy times really a bad thing?

6th: Regarding the Shrine maiden stuff have you really read all the content surrounding it? Try knocking up Mai then come back to me here and tell me how happy Komari is that you knocked up the prodigy successor. When you read more you realize you are welcome on a surface level out of obligation and politeness but as you correctly put it. Sex is just a meal to them it isn't a true connection.

7th: About the Orc tribe comparison it really isn't the same. If you read the 'Good' ending where you impregnate Ragnild, Hretha, Arona and Infrith at the same time. You will see how they treat you is vastly different. You also break a lot of orc traditions and can make real positive changes which is reflected in how the orcs treat you. The only kitsune that I would argue is grateful and truly appreciates you is Rindo. I also think she is the only Kitsune who has plans to live in the wayfort outside of the Kitsune den and the only character who feels like real progress.

My final question and then I will shut up is. How much content have you actually done? I just get the feeling you haven't explored everything yet?

Either way welcome to forum and despite the push back we are happy to have you here and if you are enjoying the game despite everything you are the winner be happy you can enjoy what we cannot.

 

[Skandranon]

="fetishgirl, post: 9092521, member: 1162024" ]
However considering your new I don't think you understand how petty ToBS is as a person either. To sum it up he has jealousy issues with one of the 'waifus' of the game written by their colleague to the point that Savin the project lead allowed ToBS to write an Out of character rape loss scene for the waifu character out of pure spite. It is also on record that the writer of the character was very upset with that scene and was shocked that Savin allowed it. What makes it even worse is that Skandranon will tell you that despite our complaining here Kiyoko does extremely well in the polls and comes between 1st-3rd throughout the years. So Kiyoko is very well liked but because she is currently losing to his colleague's character it drives him mad with rage.

Point of order: Brienne isn't beating Kiyoko, at least on any official polls. Kiyoko won and by quite a bit.

As I mentioned before, I'm pretty sure the whole "Tobs wrote Brienne in a rape scene in a jealous rage" thing has no real weight behind it.

Pretty sure Tobs just wrote a "normal for Tobs" scene and Wsan didn't like it.

Tobs writing his own way without any real thought to matching the game's tone is 100% on brand for him anyway.

The whole thing has been a way bigger deal here than Wsan has ever made it seem.

 

[Walk Cycle]

Point of order: Brienne isn't beating Kiyoko, at least on any official polls. Kiyoko won and by quite a bit.

As I mentioned before, I'm pretty sure the whole "Tobs wrote Brienne in a rape scene in a jealous rage" thing has no real weight behind it.

Pretty sure Tobs just wrote a "normal for Tobs" scene and Wsan didn't like it.

Tobs writing his own way without any real thought to matching the game's tone is 100% on brand for him anyway.

The whole thing has been a way bigger deal here than Wsan has ever made it seem.

What I don't understand by that viewpoint is if Wsan didn't like it, why was it added? He's one of the dev leads (or at least the top commissioned writer correct me if I'm wrong) he should at least have some say over a scene about his character getting raped while the "champion" is forced to watch. Even if Tobs is in charge of the Hobgobs.

 

[Knightttt]

what are the safe levels of modded stats so I dont break the game?

 

[Skandranon]

What I don't understand by that viewpoint is if Wsan didn't like it, why was it added? He's one of the dev leads (or at least the top commissioned writer correct me if I'm wrong) he should at least have some say over a scene about his character getting raped while the "champion" is forced to watch. Even if Tobs is in charge of the Hobgobs.

Devs don't read each other's scenes all the time, theyve said this quite a bit. And Wsan is fine with Brienne being in loss scenes in general (or at least, he was, dunno if anything has changed).

My reading of the situation is Tobs probably just asked if he could do a scene with hobs and Brienne, Wsan was fine with it, Tobs went 100% full Tobs with it, someone actually mentioned the scenes content to Wsan a while later and Wsan probably realized "dammit, don't give edgelords happy fluffy characters" and resolved to be more discerning in the future.

 

[sluttica95]

alright if that's what you want.



the emotion is in the premise, the execution is another matter altogether and i'd rather not pretend any part of the game is exactly heart wrenching. choosing to save a life is, in a vacuum, more engaging than being forced to save your own skin.


and once again i think this comes down to her being the earliest designed character and thus the first to be fleshed out. she feels everywhere because she's the only one who has enough content to qualify a presence outside of events she's personally involved in. i don't see it as the game going out of its way to shove cait in, i see it as the game not giving other party members their due screentime. i don't see how talking shit about cait as a character contributes to solving this problem. to reiterate, much of it can be alleviated, with any luck, once the other party members get what they deserve, assuming savco is at least competent enough to do that much.

the point i'm wiling to step back on is to not have everyone else's reactions towards her be so enthusiastic on top of positive. while it makes sense for a literal prostitute enchantress to appeal to everyone, it's just not interesting. agni has taken steps to include more lukewarm reactions and hopefully that's more to the tone of what they plan for cait in the future.

if everyone is a mary sue, but cait is getting the brunt of the hate, then clearly being a mary sue isn't the root cause.



if your first reaction to a literal break in is to talk it out you're certainly a nobler and braver man than i. it is one thing if they were actually a village out in the open fully expecting traders and travellers, and another when it's a foreign colony deliberately hidden with magic and very much not expecting visits to even be possible. they have more in common with the orc tribe than with hawkethorne. with the tone of the game being what it is (sans gwyer quest) a scuffle isn't something i hold a grudge over and all this still rings to me as people being a little more sour than is warranted.

as for kinu, i'm again fine with not being treated like dad of the year. while i'm not satisfied with TOBS' execution i understand his approach. children resent their parents for all sorts of reasons and those reasons are often out of said parents' hands. i appreciate him trying to bring this bit of reality in even if it's in a silly porn game. if you want to claim to not want full control, but then complain about the only parts of her you don't have control over, you're suddenly a lot less convincing.

it's the same thing with her marriage. it makes sense for an outsider to not have a say in a semi-political arrangement, parent or not, and colder things fudalist japan have done for the sake of social hiearchy and tradition. TOBS was too preoccupied with injecting the historical influence to consider player reaction which makes the outrage justified, but the alternative would also be far less interesting.

there is an argument to be made regarding the lack of further input on kinu's development. unfortunate, but kitsune content is already extremely bloated for side content and i doubt family therapy is something the game is desperate for. as i see it, its absence is a valid piece of criticism but ultimately an inactionable one. it's more productive to point out how silly it was to give a single piece of side content that big of a scope and that it should probably be avoided in the future.


you forgot the impregnate part. sex is food, that's one thing, sure, but being allowed to knocking up one of their shrine maidens is not quite what i consider unwelcome. the NPCs are more than happy to explain to you their roles and their culture, and provide you with their service. i literally just went through the headpat ceremony yesterday so the part about kiyoko is provably wrong.

again i feel like i'm playing a different version of the game here. the MC is intergrated into kitsune society far more than the rest of the game world, considering it's literally a magically hidden tree house club, and where our outsider status do come into play it's not out of bigotry or dickishness. in nature it's once again akin to the orc tribes, which drives me to think TOBS' reputation plays a not insignificant role in how much criticism it recieves.


never occured to you the act of detachment includes changing the name?



to repeat myself: you are paying for their product, not their time or engagement. if an aspiring writer wishes to learn, they have resources dedicated to that made by people who aren't just qualified to create, but also qualified to teach. it's a waste of time on the student's part for banking on the uncertain byproducts of confronting creators with criticism, and a waste of time on the creators' part for indulging them. the potential usefulness you listed can just as well be gained by the creator sitting on a sidelines watching people discuss, argue and agree on points amongst themselves.

the answer to "why can't they just be nice and helpful" is "because being nice and helpful costs time and effort they don't owe you." there's a reason education isn't free. it's one thing for a creator to publish commentary on their own volition because they wish to do so, and another to demand a creator's commentary when they aren't open to giving it.

you said yourself the bar for what they do could not be any lower, yet here assumes they have valuable knowledge they could impart if they'd only explain. you'll forgive me if all this strikes me as a little insincere.

i still think there's miscommunication in this regard. confrontation is the key word here. it's not my intention to say the creator should not have to deal with criticism, only that they shouldn't be confronted directly about them. i have fully endorsed posting criticisms in forums and discussing it amongst ourselves, a.k.a what happens here, and have criticised them for responding to criticism that aren't confrontational. unless you're confronting the writers directly about your gripes this isn't about you.

pressuring people who aren't open to changing their minds can trigger knee-jerk defenses. which is referred to as back fire effects. they are the correct term for the specific effects at work as coined by Cook & Lewandowsky (2011). belief perseverance refers to the result and general topic of study. you'd know this if you read your way past the first sentence on wikipedia, put the term in google scholar, or just do a ctrl+f.

criticism is something that needs time to be weeded, digested and refined into something actionable, especially when they come from the general public.

this should not be so wild a claim to anyone who had worked with big projects. and yes, there also needs to be time for the creators to confront their own egos, i don't think it's reasonable to demand a proper artist to have no ego and be perfectly receptive to advice and critique, let alone for it to be even possible. if you genuinely do want the project to turn out as good as possible, you'd take this into account. and if you'd like to volunteer yourself as the exception, i envy your bliss.

as a consumer(piracy or no) you may feel you have the right to confront creators with criticism and recieve a reply in return, and given the right perspective you may very well do, but that does not change the fact that being pressured to perform this process in short order and coming up with a reply is less effective when it comes to actually improving the product. as it stands most creative teams perform this process internally in private and does not extend the critic a notification or explanation afterwards. for a good reason.

as a final note i'm under the impression that this is a discussion and not an argument, and a discussion is cooperative in nature. I expect people to meet me half way when it comes to surface level research as i will do for them when and if the need arises. if you don't intend to come off as abrasive then don't be abrasive, it's shockingly easy with written text.

Man, it's a shitty text porn game why do you guys type out the Iliad in the comment section. Learn a language or something

 

[M0nte]

I like how everyone treats Brienne getting raped as big deal while Brint is being thrown to the side.

 

[SoulsSurvivor]

Man, it's a shitty text porn game why do you guys type out the Iliad in the comment section. Learn a language or something

Takes lots of effort to defend something you've sunk shit loads of time/money into, especially when a large portion of people don't bow down and service said thing at every opportunity.

 

[Quintilus]

Man, it's a shitty text porn game why do you guys type out the Iliad in the comment section. Learn a language or something

> shitty text porn game
> 34k murican persindents per month on a patreon and some unknown amount on/from other platforms
> shitty
> text
> porn
> game
*suspicion*

 

[undyingrevenant]

snip

devs feelings or histories aside

Spoiler: Cait

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Spoiler: Azyrran

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Spoiler: berwyn

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Spoiler: brint/brienne

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Spoiler: kiyoko (also kinu because there are no parents, only bambi)

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Spoiler: agnimitra

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Spoiler: atugia

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Spoiler: etheryn

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[Quintilus]

I like how everyone treats Brienne getting raped as big deal while Brint is being thrown to the side.

Brienne is a goddess and a princess and should be protected at all cost!!!
Brint is just a lowly male with a horse cock. We have fuckton of such girls in the game already. Why anybody should care?!

 

[Kroenen12]

Man, it's a shitty text porn game why do you guys type out the Iliad in the comment section. Learn a language or something

eso estoy haciendo po weon
CoC2 + Google translator= learn English

 

[Svcya]

And wouldn't choosing between saving one life versus many be even more engaging than that? I don't see the point of talking about a premise rather than the execution, at least in this point of discussion.

it would, and it can be done along with saving an actual character with a name.

i've said this in my first post, in any other story calla would have been our sister instead. the entire point about cait is how she has the nobler if not better written motive than we do and adds to the whole "we aren't the real protagonist" feeling the whole game radiates. hers promises an emotional reunion at the very least, a surprise act or plot twist at most in the form of calla's fate, who's essentially been CoC1'ed and can turn out in so many ways. there's an extra emotional thread and a layer of mystery in her story that can and in my eyes should have been worked into the MC's main plot instead. or at least not sitting besides it as glaring misplaced potential.

she lives in the world as well and kas doesn't just threaten to corrupt the MC. nothing the MC has as a motive she doesn't. but her story has so many more toys to play with and so many more paths to go down.

kinu & kitsune stuff

gonna skip this topic at this point. maybe it's because i'm used to living in foreign cultures, i don't feel disrespected and unwanted by the kitsune community at large and am not overly bothered by kinu, her resentment and all. ultimately i can't deny other people's experiences, i can only confirm my own, and my own is that there is no shortage of friendly interactions, including with takahiro and both post-orb kinu outcomes, to have me enjoy the kitsune side of content, bloated as they are. i appreciate the historical inspirations and the grit it adds to what's otherwise a soft and inoffensive setting.

i think an RPG is just as much about what's not in my control as what is, and under the influence of this view i don't think i can understand the other side enough to provide any insightful commentary to further this discussion.

To the first sentence: Those two are essentially the same thing. Regardless, those companions will not ever reach her level of content. That would require a bevy of content to match the temple, to be involved in content that doesn't concern them(Marrying Atani), have their own quest that ties into the main story, have as many different character interactions as she does, ability to have multiple TFs, etc. Maybe if she were to never get content again most companions would be able to catch up, but we all know that isn't happening.

the difference depends on whether they have plans for the rest of the cast, or whether they aimed to give cait more presence to begin with. that marks the difference between it being a growing pain or blatant mismanagement.

i have my doubts about the companion content too. i have my doubts about whether the game will reach full release at all or implode as these things usually do. in the end it's all speculation and not something i'm willing to hop off the fence for. Brinne's content is on the right track, ryn has some interesting foreshadowing, kiyoko is frontloaded but don't lose in terms of word count at least, if only because TOBS is one of those writers in need of an editor.

and who knows, maybe savco will bite the bullet and give even more companions the berwyn treatment if they don't feel like fleshing them out further or don't see any narrative potential. i can think of a big green example off the top of my head. we only have spot for 2 at a time with a full roster of - fuck me - 10, if brint/enne count as two. and they didn't have the foresight to give them all drastically different archetypes either. if i had a dollar for every frontline beefy warrior i'd have enough money to buy a coke, or at least store brand fake doctor pepper.

i'm not one for tempting time itself, so a decently balanced roster content wise isn't something i'm writing off.

...By adding a 2? You have to be joking, right? Otherwise, I'm not sure what you're talking about.

by changing the name entirely.

"they are better off doing it" means they should have done it or should do it eventually, not that they've already done it which seems to be the misinterpretation.

No because the input of the creator can completely change the perspective of the content. The context of scenes and the entire narrative can change if the writer explains their thought process behind things. It is also much more luck-based if those theoretical discussions are fruitful in terms of helpfulness if the creator isn't present. Maybe nobody says anything in response, maybe it just becomes one big shitpost fest. The chances of the discussion actually being a boon increases so much more if the creator takes part in it.

i'm a firm believer of the death of the author approach, all the way down to how media should be studied and how artists should behave themselves. the theory runs deep and it's a dry read on the best of days, but the relevant portion is this: what is intended by the author is often not the same as what is done, and what works in the author's mind may not work for the audience.

if something about a piece of art works, it should work without explanation for the majority of the intended audience. to let an author explain put them at risk of being blind to their own mistakes. either by letting them colour the feedback or simply by allowing them to reaffirm their conviction.

call for someone to justify themselves and they will often assume themselves just, that's how you end up with delusional creators. i've dealt with enough unfruitful critique sessions marred by artists justifying their absurd decisions with artist intention. too many to put any faith in your method. should ring a bell in this community.

beyond that, the portion of the audience that are willing let alone able to interact directly with the artist is small and falls under a category of their own, even with the presence of social media. they are often not representitive of the general audience at large.

the gathering of feedback is a form of research, and research is best done when controlled for response bias. this is reflected in my prior description of critique etiquette. it is the path i've been taught and a path i'm unwilling to stray from over a forum discussion.

all of this is to say i think the more accurate reflection of the work is one unperturbed by the presence and input of the artist.

there comes a time when the author gets to join the discussion. in panels, biographies, director commentaries; after the work is done and the audience, as an entity at large, have formed their perspectives already. that's when an author can safely add to and alter perspectives without having it leak into the work at hand.

To imply a writer taking maybe 30 minutes out of their day to respond to criticism is the same as a college course is a tad silly.

you are quite right.

to imply high quality education can only be found in a college course is also rather absurd. especially when it comes to creative industries.

i think you've vastly underestimated the difference between two individuals interacting and a crowd interaction, even if savco is comparatively small-time.

how many 30 minutes do they need to take out and how many days do they need to take them out of? the press release is constantly expanding and the auditorium has a rotating door. not every guest that comes through has the good graces to pay the archives a visit.

Getting insight as to how and why a creator does things, even if those things are bad and the reasoning flawed, can be a good example of what NOT to do. It allows people to learn how to avoid the same mistakes the creators in question made. That and even a broken clock is right twice a day. All the writers do get some things right which would only make their thoughts on the matter all the more interesting.

good insights worth having, and once again insights avaliable elsewhere in better forms. this time i'll add the fact that case studies, analysies and other dedicated study material are easily accesible outside of a college course.

How is this not the same thing? You're saying we should not bring the criticism to them and that they should only seek it out themselves but what if they just never see said criticism? What if they're not lucky to be big enough(which most writers definitely are not) to have a separate forum discussing their works? What then? And why would them experiencing said criticism in a separate forum suddenly make it okay?

they are different the same way going to a restaurant is different from being force fed steaks on the street. if they don't have the good judgement to eat without being fed then the fault falls on them and it's they who will starve, but it's still not a reason to start firing mashed potatoes at their mouths.

i didn't say you shouldn't give critique directly under any circumstance, if an artist actively seek them then they are presumably prepared for change, if after that they still react poorly the fault falls firmly on them, and i've had no qualms calling savco out for doing this. confrontation doesn't describe every type of direct feedback.

gonna assume we've all had unwanrranted advice from family members and have all asked for advice from them when we are in need. the difference should be clear.

when i say forums i include the official forums too, the only thing i'm really targeting is discord where direct and live interaction is expected.

Again, I would agree. The thing I'm curious about would be who is pressuring them to do it in short order? I don't think I've ever seen a case of someone blatantly asking for their criticism to be replied to, nevertheless quickly. It's solely on the creator in question if they feel this way without prompting.

blatant? no. implied is a different story. a static forum post is one thing but a live discord discussion comes with a different set of expectations, both for the audience and for the creators present. the biggest instances of writer drama came from this. if your impression of those interactions are different then feel free to assume i stand corrected and i'll concede the entire point.

i will preface this by saying savco still shoulders responsibility for the way they respond and whether they respond at all. as a matter of fact i think them being openly active in the discord is a mistake, which is why i mentioned how most teams don't do it. the point of contention i want to present is the way the community, here at least, make attributions to character flaws. i think that's an unfair approach, not because they aren't as flawed as we say, but because calling out creators for not reacting well to constructive criticism is, paradoxically perhaps, not constructive at all. eliminate personal flaws is not as actionable a piece of critique as it might seem to be, and if by some miracle smut writing becomes a sort of self improvement pilgrimage, it's hardly the most efficient course of action.

more flawed people have been less contentious than savco, so the problem lay somewhere else. my take is it lies in their team structuring which goes back to their direct presence in the discord. feedback filtering and PR are specialist tasks and should be given exclusively to people who are qualified or at least better acquainted.

if i have to say it out loud, yes, the artist's ego should be protected. not coddled, but bypassed. one way of doing that is relaying critical feedback via a messenger they can't shoot. taking away even the possibility to bite back lets them focus less on defending themselves and more on the feedback itself. if nothing else having a filter both ways reduces friction between creator and audience.

it's done pretty much everywhere else besides little internet projects like these, because i guess a discord server makes a decent patreon reward. for details and an example, see the story of how no man's sky was engoodened, by googling those exact words. i'll not be convinced all the patreon money can't afford them a dedicated and qualified community manager capable of shutting their writers up.

with that said, if members of the community want to march under the banner of constructive criticism, they are better off steering away from shit talking individual creators, even if they have a point.

i can't make the call to get savco a community manager, but i can make the call to add nuance to discussions and direct my critcism in a more useful direction. it's the only action available to me so i've taken it.

bottom line, personal virtue cannot be relied upon to manage a team, and pointing out the lack thereof does not make constructive criticism. if the community cannot be expected to self moderate when it comes to critique then neither can the individual artists when it comes to their reactions. the direction of cashflow has no influence over human impulses.

these posts are only getting longer, i've done all i've come here to do, and by the looks of it we've just about reached an amicable middle ground, i'll read the reply if one is posted but i think any further active discussion will yield diminishing returns for all of us.

 

[muschi26]

On the topic of people in the kitsune den's attitude towards the player.

Why’s “harbour” written with a U here? Isn’t the game supposed to be in American English? Does anybody proofread this shit?

Edit: Also, Tobs’s dialogue is double-plus-ungood.

 

[destroyerofassholes]

I like how everyone treats Brienne getting raped as big deal while Brint is being thrown to the side.

This is pretty much the fate of brint lmao ever since Brienne people only remember brint exists once every few months or so

 

[Orphanus]

This is pretty much the fate of brint lmao ever since Brienne people only remember brint exists once every few months or so

And 1 of the reasons why Berry's creator was so adamantly against turning him into a female, do we need to talk about what lead writers did immediately after firing him over his mental health issues?

In my opinion one has to purposely play blind & deaf to not see that there are some serious issues with how some of them behave.