- Dec 28, 2024
- 10
- 63
- Thread starter Cosy Creator
- Start date
Wow really cute and cosy the game.
I must admit, 1st game i read all the text and really would have no problem to play it from start again.
I must admit, 1st game i read all the text and really would have no problem to play it from start again.
As someone who likes story games, and cosy games, I've really enjoyed this so far. I only started playing (reading?) it in the last public release. (My username is unrelated to this game, but it fits, so whatever.) I don't really love posting on forums, so I've written this post a few times, and I'm just going to cave and post it.
I'd imagine a fair few people won't like this post, but it is what it is.
Just jumping back to your previous post:
Lucy is a close second favourite for me, but she took longer to grow on me because I felt like Jack was taking advantage of her too much early on. Part of that is just the awkardness of how she's introduced, and the rapidly unfolding series of events that follow. But it introduced a disquiet in me. (History of someone I know also played a part in this.) She's really well written, and there's no good way to get around how awkward that was always going to be, so this certainly isn't a criticism. She's obviously a good person, but, as Jack points out, that's obvious. Unlike Sarah, who was immediately, and very obviously, easy to read as a good person, Lucy's good nature hides how good of a person she is until later (when she basically telegraphs every other character's behaviour, confirming my read of Sarah).
You tend to telegraph your plays, rather a lot (making people lean into hindsight). I suspect you're using it as a cornerstone of your cosy approach, because when something 'unexpected' comes up, it's usually something I saw coming, or, at some stage, it'll be something I should have seen coming (and I'll get it in hindsight). This is a seriously underappreciated form of writing, and it goes really well with your love of reflecting everyone off one another, and shifting exposition to external to every character. Both of these half-mask the way you do character growth, because you can hide a lot of growth behind change-of-circumstance behavioural changes (mostly people moving in/out). It should go without saying that I really enjoyed the times where you half-break the fourth wall and call out hindsight as a mechanic (the tutoring session in particular).
Since the first telegraphed play was the watered plant (foreshadowing Lucy), you continue to play that out, and it works; as it's the start of the game, I found it set my brain at ease, which was probably your point. Showing the bathrooms and dishwashing room well before they're needed, with the forming allowing for an excuse for Lucy needing to get changed, and, in the latest update, cleaning/resetting of the dishwashing area. They weren't strictly needed, but the dishwashing/storage area really showed off that potential for expansion from cafe to restaurant. Again, I really liked this. I know people do this a fair bit, but they rarely do it this well.
As for Rachel, I have had theories since the second interaction. I know the ticket book theories are that she stole the book, but given some of the twists you lean towards, I suspect it's just as likely that she knows who has it, or might even return it without asking for a reward. But I also suspect that she wants to talk to Jack about the FF, or FF business, and that the beginning of her redemption arc (the office scene) was as much about moving the story on as it was about masking it. Her interest in the FF due to the history project set her down this path, and I don't think you're done with it. Given how clean you tend to keep your arc lines, and the obvious bump and overlap you're leaning into here, I'm not sure where you're going with any of it. Though you do tend to telegraph within the same release, with longer term telegraphing plays being way more obvious (e.g. you need a dishwashing area, for that you'll want a dishwasher, and it'll be one of the main characters).
I really need to rewrite my review to clean it up, but I also don't want to lace it with spoilers, so I'll probably wait until the next public release.
It's an amazing story so far. You've managed to make an AVN where the sex scenes matter, but, at the same time, where you could replace them, and spend a few days of talking and interaction to replace them, and it'd still work. You've managed to create a weird sort of environment where the story drives the characters, but the characters allow for the story. Normally it's characters driving it, or story driving them, but in this case I'm not sure which. That interwoven complexity, without it really being a problem, shows a rare kind of talent. Sure, you could justify it as the AVN format allowing it, but there are plenty of AVNs, even kinetic stories, which can't pull it off. Where actions feel like a cheap path to sex, as opposed to sex scenes being relationship growth shortcuts which matter.
I'd imagine a fair few people won't like this post, but it is what it is.
Just jumping back to your previous post:
She was my favourite character from the moment she agreed to make the clothes. Introduced as Lucy's friend, Jack walks in, makes the worst first impression he could manage, continues to act cocky, and yet she helps him. At this point we don't know anything about the FF, or anything else, just that she's friends with Lucy, and she's prepared to set aside whatever's going on to help Jack. Doesn't matter that it probably started as being for Lucy (if anything that makes her an even better friend), she's just a really nice person with a prickly exterior.
Lucy is a close second favourite for me, but she took longer to grow on me because I felt like Jack was taking advantage of her too much early on. Part of that is just the awkardness of how she's introduced, and the rapidly unfolding series of events that follow. But it introduced a disquiet in me. (History of someone I know also played a part in this.) She's really well written, and there's no good way to get around how awkward that was always going to be, so this certainly isn't a criticism. She's obviously a good person, but, as Jack points out, that's obvious. Unlike Sarah, who was immediately, and very obviously, easy to read as a good person, Lucy's good nature hides how good of a person she is until later (when she basically telegraphs every other character's behaviour, confirming my read of Sarah).
You tend to telegraph your plays, rather a lot (making people lean into hindsight). I suspect you're using it as a cornerstone of your cosy approach, because when something 'unexpected' comes up, it's usually something I saw coming, or, at some stage, it'll be something I should have seen coming (and I'll get it in hindsight). This is a seriously underappreciated form of writing, and it goes really well with your love of reflecting everyone off one another, and shifting exposition to external to every character. Both of these half-mask the way you do character growth, because you can hide a lot of growth behind change-of-circumstance behavioural changes (mostly people moving in/out). It should go without saying that I really enjoyed the times where you half-break the fourth wall and call out hindsight as a mechanic (the tutoring session in particular).
Since the first telegraphed play was the watered plant (foreshadowing Lucy), you continue to play that out, and it works; as it's the start of the game, I found it set my brain at ease, which was probably your point. Showing the bathrooms and dishwashing room well before they're needed, with the forming allowing for an excuse for Lucy needing to get changed, and, in the latest update, cleaning/resetting of the dishwashing area. They weren't strictly needed, but the dishwashing/storage area really showed off that potential for expansion from cafe to restaurant. Again, I really liked this. I know people do this a fair bit, but they rarely do it this well.
As for Rachel, I have had theories since the second interaction. I know the ticket book theories are that she stole the book, but given some of the twists you lean towards, I suspect it's just as likely that she knows who has it, or might even return it without asking for a reward. But I also suspect that she wants to talk to Jack about the FF, or FF business, and that the beginning of her redemption arc (the office scene) was as much about moving the story on as it was about masking it. Her interest in the FF due to the history project set her down this path, and I don't think you're done with it. Given how clean you tend to keep your arc lines, and the obvious bump and overlap you're leaning into here, I'm not sure where you're going with any of it. Though you do tend to telegraph within the same release, with longer term telegraphing plays being way more obvious (e.g. you need a dishwashing area, for that you'll want a dishwasher, and it'll be one of the main characters).
I really need to rewrite my review to clean it up, but I also don't want to lace it with spoilers, so I'll probably wait until the next public release.
Given the way you've managed to weave it together, telegraph her redemption, and start it in a way that people didn't notice it, I'd say that it'd be an underestimation of your talent. Some people will always dislike her, but I doubt we're getting any further into her redemption without learning more about her background and past, which is where you tend to explain why people are like they are.
It's an amazing story so far. You've managed to make an AVN where the sex scenes matter, but, at the same time, where you could replace them, and spend a few days of talking and interaction to replace them, and it'd still work. You've managed to create a weird sort of environment where the story drives the characters, but the characters allow for the story. Normally it's characters driving it, or story driving them, but in this case I'm not sure which. That interwoven complexity, without it really being a problem, shows a rare kind of talent. Sure, you could justify it as the AVN format allowing it, but there are plenty of AVNs, even kinetic stories, which can't pull it off. Where actions feel like a cheap path to sex, as opposed to sex scenes being relationship growth shortcuts which matter.
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- Dec 11, 2022
- 502
- 3,989
That's probably one of the most in-depth analyses of my writing that I've ever received, and I really enjoyed reading it. Awesome post, thanks!
You might not post often on forums but thanks for adding a thoughtful and well-reasoned post to this thread.
IMO - thoughtful and well-reasoned posts, even if some might not agree with the content, are still worth posting so please consider sharing more on this and other threads.
GL on your future shares!
Cheers!!
- Feb 16, 2024
- 639
- 1,563
I feel you're misinterpreting Jack as taking advantage of her. Lucy was a girl very deep into her own shell. A girl so wrapped up in her own anxieties and so abused by her own mother that she wasn't even capable of making her own decisions. Someone like this needs someone like Jack to show her kindness but also coax her out of her shell by asking her to do favors like going to buy food so he can cook for them or having her help him clean. Deep down she longs for connection and interaction but she's so traumatized by bullying that she isn't capable of taking the first step in that regard. Jack is always very kind to her and gives her direction and structure but also asks how she feels about things so that she learns that she is allowed to have her own thoughts about things and she won't be judged by thinking the wrong thing. He shows a lot of trust to her immediately by just handing her a bunch of money and letting her go out to shop. She could've just run off with the money if she was a bad person. She wants to be trusted so she does as she's asked and he rewards her with pancakes.
I thinks its good how the creator introduce the really different girls.
I dont think the MC take advantage of Lucy, more he encourage her to come out of her shell, as we see it when her playful side came out more often.
Lucy was a real good start for the story as she has some commons with the MC.
The introducing of the totally different Vicky has catched me even more.
And than comes Sarah, which i dont have on plan, but i really like her and her development.
Each girl has her problems, own history and the story let you feel with them.
And the mc always handle each girl differently, not overdose it and try to be gentlemenlike where he could.
I although like the introducing of Rachel. I dont hate her, think the girl has real big problems and i like to see how the creator handle this character.
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Last edited:
I'm entirely fine with the possibility that it's just me seeing it that way. As I said, the history of someone I know likely shapes my read.
What I said was it took longer for her to grow on me than Sarah. I felt like Jack took advantage of Lucy. This is my opinion, based on his actions. On his thoughts (as put into text). And on his later actions. I didn't like how he treated Lucy, despite largely being good to her. I felt bad for Lucy, and it really made it difficult to want them to be together (at least early on, say, the first 10 days).
Jack was a bit of a jerk to Sarah. He deserved the magazine to the face. That whole situation felt more like equal footing from the start, and as the story wound on, her pushback and staying true to herself, as well as her character reveal/exploration, appealed to me more.
Lucy grew on me, and after day 11 (she moves in day 10), I spent far less time feeling sorry for her, and more time liking her. But Sarah has been the standout for me, because no matter how badly sideways things are, she's good to people. Sure, so is Lucy, but I didn't spend 2/5th of the existing game time feeling the same kind of sorry for Sarah (though there's a similar window in which I should be worried about her stalker, but I'm not, because she immediately went to Jack and it's in a state of 'okay'), so I'm not bound up in that baggage. This could change, but even replaying the story, I still feel sorry for Lucy (more so because I know the foreshadowing and foreboding is right), and I still immediately enjoy Sarah putting Jack in his place.
I've got complicated feelings towards Hannah and Catherine as well. But, unlike Sarah and Lucy, I feel like we don't know enough to really comment on that situation. I mostly just feel sorry for both of them.
- Jun 8, 2021
- 982
- 3,402
It might help your case if you could give some specific examples of places where you felt like MC was taking advantage of her, because after reading your message I decided to reread the first 10 days and just cant find anything.
I can see how someone might think for a second that Lucy is getting taken advantage of, but there are also plenty of lines of dialogue here that dispel that pretty quickly: Like when she fervently praises MCs cooking to basically everyone who would listen, all the times that MC would ask her permission to do things (not just sexual things), When they were doing the questions thing while cleaning and she told him her bra size after he said he would ask another question (this says to me that she is already coming out of her shell and getting more comfortable with the MC on like day 2-3), when she purposely messed up during the training so that MC could see more of her, and more
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its been touched on a bit, but just because Lucy has gone through trauma doesn't mean that she needs or wants to be coddled or treated differently, MC acting like normal with her before and after learning about her mother is probably what's best for her in the long run. She even tells the MC she wants to get spanked by him after MC tells her he is uncomfortable with doing it after learning about her mom.
I think his relationship with Lucy is pretty rock-solid. They complement each other very well, with MC boosting her confidence and Lucy making him a bit kinder. Honestly, while I think the MC acts somewhat pushy at times (especially when with girls he doesn't really know well), he really seemed to "get" Lucy very early on; especially when compared with his behavior with the other girls, it feels like he's being very deliberate with how much he puts on her at once. He sticks up for her from the start, and I personally loved that as soon as he learned about her home troubles, it was his top priority to ensure her safety. Admittedly, while I don't know if she's my favorite character, she definitely feels like the one with the most romantic chemistry with the MC.
I don't love that 'my case' is 'explain your feelings'. I generally avoid posting for reasons like this. How I feel is entirely up to me, and if you don't feel the same way, I'm fine with it. But since people seem to be really up in arms about this, I'll answer it this time (and in the future go back to not expressing large parts of how I feel about things).
So I'll go through it, but first:
This is basically the heart of the problem. Jack is often very transactional, more than is realistic. The universe he's set in is, but we don't know that for a number of days. He's also fairly commanding and wants to be in control. These are things that we don't know about him until he admits it to himself, and we can read it. The reason for his behaviour matters. With hindsight, we can see all of this, but the story doesn't unfold with that information, and I don't like to taint subsequent re-reads of things with feelings I establish. The order of the reveal matters to me.
-----
Every story has 'story magic' involved. The relationship with Lucy feels too hopeful, optimistic, and idealised. As if the karmic forces that made their lives suck before they met were all leading to this. There's a level of this that's easy for me to blink away (the forces of the story need the narrative to move onwards), but there's a lot going on here. This is the hindsight read of the situation, justifying why it happens, and understanding it. But going in forwards is a very different experience. If you assume everything is always going to be perfect, and you ignore all of the foreshadowing and hindsight provoking points, then you're going to get a very different experience. You're also going to get a very different experience to how I read it, because I let characters expose who they are to me over time. So, start with the knowledge that I'm not using anything not presented in the story. It's the way the story was written, so it's how I approach it.
There's a mix of first-, second-, and third- person narration. First (thinking) mixed well with second (straight narration), but the third-person narration requires someone else who knows him, or pretends to know him, to step up. (I'm calling straight narration second person because Jack is almost always 'you'; when he thinks, it's 'I', and others obviously use third-person forms.) Split narration is hard to do, and can be confusing to read (Ren'Py can make it a bit messy too), but I take second person as fixed/concrete reads, first person as what the person thinks, and third person to be what those people think (or want us to think that they think, depending on the story). This reveals itself in the first few days, and it's pretty normal, so we don't have to bring in assumptions. (Other games do out this in a tutorial screen, but it doesn't matter here.)
Because context matters, and we need to track what's known, here are the relevant parts of the first three days in spoilers, with the summary points below.
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At the start of the story we know he's short on cash, and a bit full of himself. None of this is necessary a bad setup for the character. The plant telegraph is important later. We get a mix of first and second person, but it all aligns, so it doesn't matter. The key point is that Jack is cocky and work-first.
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The real issue by day 2 is that in their first meeting they're configured as people who don't really understand one another. Lucy helps him. We already suspect she doesn't have anything else to do, and that she doesn't want to be at home ('why do you come here' -> 'it's normal empty'). With hindsight, we know she's just generally helpful but also that she doesn't want to go home. But on the first pass through, if you're paying attention, it bumps. Narration shows he doesn't get her, but that he has a basic read.
I don't put myself in Jack's position. I'm watching him as an outsider. So I don't make any assumptions of him as I'm walking through this. He's cocky, and comes across as arrogant and putting himself first. First and second person narration confirmed this for me. It's an interesting choice of character design, but it makes me want to protect Lucy from him, rather than have them get together. This first impression is what drives my concern. Again, I'm not bringing in an outside hope or assumption that he's a decent guy. We just don't know anything yet.
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Day 3 is huge. Jack is good to her, but he comes off as transactional again. We find out more about the situation, and we know Lucy's home life isn't great. We also learn that Jack can related to a large degree. That he doesn't empathise well with what's happening is actually somewhat more problematic as a result. And that Jack can relate to bullies at school, but doesn't seem to react to Lucy's situation in full, is another issue. We don't need hindsight to show that he's oblivious, he does that himself. So he's oblivious, arrogant, and transactional. Jack-first.
I don't want to step day 4, but both Victoria and Sarah stand up to him. They expose more of Jack than we've seen so far, but it doesn't significantly change how Jack presents himself to Lucy, or how he treats her. He does put Lucy first (over Victoria), and Sarah puts Lucy over Jack. While Jack is good to Lucy here, he makes it clear it isn't a favour to Lucy, it's about his own peace of mind. Remembering that he says this, and thinks about it for the new few days. This is his starting point, and he does eventually grow out of it (but not in the first week).
I could keep doing this for the first ten days, but basically the issue is the karmic/story-magic dragging them together has to set aside a lot. Far too much, in many ways. Jack is Jack-first until Lucy and Victoria drag his head out of his own arse (to say nothing of Sarah's work on him, and Alison's prompting). Waitress training becomes an opportunity for him to get lewd. We can write this off as a genre perk all we want, but the reality is that his attitude splits. He's not protective of Lucy; he's mean to Victoria, and Victoria pushes back (agreeing to partially strip as a result). When Lucy wants to get involved, he takes active advantage of it. Again, you can write this off as a perk, but he is taking advantage of the situation, and through it, Lucy. If it were really just about putting Victoria in her place, he wouldn't have involved Lucy. (This would have left some room for Lucy to offer to strip down later, but the narrative goes where it goes, and it exposes Lucy's playful side; not a criticism of the story, just my point as to why it makes Jack look bad in this part.)
Lucy is quietly falling to pieces trying to add this new person to her life, and it's negatively impacting her home life (school gets the story magic treatment from about this point on). Jack is oblivious, and keeps asking her for help. It doesn't really matter that she really wants to do it, by putting himself that far first, and being what Victoria later points out ('oblivious' and 'such a guy'), it sets the tone for me having a hard to warming up to Lucy, or, more bluntly, the relationship that's forming. Sarah's hovering and protective nature towards Lucy, as well as Alison's concerns, foreshadow issues in different places (school + home, and home, respectively). I noticed this, and it didn't do me any favours. Lucy isn't oblivious to the fact that other people put themselves first, but she does appear to be conflicted as to whether or not Jack is putting himself too far ahead of her. Her jealousy of Victoria, as well as fear of abandonment, pushes her a bit here. So I'm annoyed with Jack for not noticing, and it doesn't endear me to Lucy because, despite her wanting it, and, even with hindsight, we hope for the right reasons, we've got the nagging little hints from Sarah and Alison (and later Victoria) that Jack's being an idiot and/or degenerate pervert. (Write it off as part of the story and genre if you want, but Sarah calling it out keeps it real for me.)
I like Lucy as a character. But I feel like she's being pushed and pulled too much for the first ten days. Once she moves out, to move in with Jack, her character gets a chance to shine. Her intelligence, booksmarts, and perception, turn into superpowers (story magic!). But until she moves in, noting that that point would make her dependent on Jack if it weren't a 'we're now in this together' type deal, it's problematic to me. At the bare minimum, it's more problematic than Sarah's position to date. We know enough of the story by now to know that people can screw people over in the universe (and have), so I'm hopeful, but not certain, that Jack won't hurt Lucy. I'm with Sarah on the whole 'didn't feel it that serious given the other girls' thing. (Lucy gives him permission after she moves in, but he just puts himself first and doesn't really address his behaviour until then; again, I felt terrible for Lucy.) There's growth after this, but the first part is ugly. Yes, a good story needs some ugly.
Bluntly, Sarah and Victoria force Jack into his own head, shifting his attitude from 'Jack first' to 'Jack and my girls', to him putting them above himself and even the cafe. Rachel calls him out on the 'my girls' stuff too; she's actually really important here because, between her, Sarah, and a few others (like Hannah), it shows concern within the universe. Lucy never really gets to be Jack's only girl, because Victoria becomes 'his' before that (slave girl, before she becomes the slave girlfriend). But even then, the transformation from Jack to Jack+ takes some time, and Lucy, being the first girl in a relationship with him (even though she's not really 'his' before Victoria is), feels like she's both the natural choice (it works), and as if Jack's taking advantage of her by continuing to fool around right up until that point (even teasingly in the kitchen that day). Even getting into a formalised relationship comes across as a bit off. Which is called back to when Victoria and Jack become 'official', and again with Akatsuki. I'm guessing it's going to be a point every time someone is collared. But, yes, it's still more complicated.
Victoria turning up at his house at the start of day 4 means Jack has an opportunity to put Lucy first, and he does, to an extent. Lucy is more important to Jack, and this is the first time he calls that out. He doesn't spell it out enough to Victoria, and so Victoria immediately competes to be with him. If Jack had gone the other way (toward Victoria), would you still feel the same way about how he treated Lucy earlier? Since it's a harem game, he can do both. The universe explains that this is totally fine, at least for him, because of who he is (head of a founding family), but that all comes later. In the meantime, Jack fools around with both girls, in front of both, while acting oblivious. Other people in the universe recoil in disgust for quite some time, and despite many people coming around, it highlights that this isn't normal for them either.
I completely get the whole 'let nobody hurts Lucy' mentality here. The best way for it to happen feels, in the story, to be that they stay together forever. But it also feels like it's going to be overly simplistic, and there are a heap of overshadowing aspects. Sarah protects Lucy every chance she gets. Jack and Victoria step up for her tim and time again. But the dynamic of the will-be harem doesn't exist for ten days. Lucy is a plaything. Victoria is a plaything. Sarah is a sparring partner. This puts them on different footing by the time the situation becomes clearer for Lucy. Victoria then gets jerked around in another way, and I feel sorry for her in a different way. (Akatsuki comes later, and those are some complicated feelings.)
Victoria, partially selfishly, helps him start a mini-redemption arc at the start. Sarah's interlude helps him grow before Victoria starts pushing him for growth; you can argue that Victoria pushes Sarah to help him grow for Lucy's sake. Alison pushes him to grow as a person (he pushes back until his FF secret is blown and he needs her). Lucy, after moving in, finally has the time, space, and bandwidth, to let herself grow, and she does it alongside Jack (growing more, and faster, than he does). A series of small arcs for growth and change, but it takes a long time for them to get anywhere, and in the meantime Lucy lands in limbo.
None of this is meant as a criticism of the individuals. It's just why the relationship with Sarah, and Sarah's behaviour, grew on me from the start. She wasn't looking for anything, she didn't need anything, and she didn't appear to want anything. She stepped in to help Lucy, and she was prepared to help Jack for that. She's prickly as hell, but she also struck me as someone who'd do anything for the people she loved, even if it made her feel wildly uncomfortable. At the same time, unlike Lucy, I wasn't worried about her (until the stalker thing happened, when Jack papers over it by protecting her immediately). She benefits from Lucy being first, but she also benefits from a slower burn-in period. Sarah also benefits from Jack always stepping in to protect her, in every way he can. He took steps to protect Lucy, but it feels like he's dead serious about Sarah from the start, whereas with Lucy and Victoria, he was fooling around until he collared them.
As before, I'm entirely fine with people disagreeing with how I'm seeing it. I'm not asking people to justify their feelings. If you like Lucy more, that's great. If you like Victoria more, that's great. If Mika is your favourite, then, uh, good luck with that.
I get where you are coming from, but you gotta give the authors the room to have some fate to their story for them to set up a story. I'm totally with you about some games having too much fate placed but with Cosy Cafe it does seem reasonable.
The 'story magic' is most often resolved in a manner that satisfy me in hindsight.
I do believe you try to approach it this way, but the way you describe your impression leads me to believe you're quickly switching from observing to judging. That is per se not wrong but does have the caveat of getting and solidifying a negative impression.
MC taking opportunities to get intimate with girls he's personally interested does not contradict his personality or the story. Him being oblivious to many things does fall in place with him showing he's calloused by his past.
Well, yeah. If he's oblivious to then he can only take advantage of it. And this new encounter negatively impacting her already abusive relationship with her mother is not really an argument against her switching from an toxic dependency to her mother to a potential healthy/happy dependency to MC.
And him taking advantage of girls initially is somewhat of a grey zone but acceptable nevertheless. He can be cunning towards strangers but he does uphold a decent moral compass whenever someone enters his circle. I don't see him being an cocky ass to others is a problem when MC treats his girls decently, although with a peculiar dynamic to their relationships.
Cocky ass MC is as much of a trope like shy shounen manga mc. Only a few authors pull off a good writing with those archetype.
Cosy Cafe is not a game where you can self-insert by the amount of choices you have. It is a story told from the perspective of the MC and you only grasp his character traits (be they favourable or detrimental) in hindsight when MC lore is dropped in a conversation. Not knowing your father, having your mother practically abandoning you and being jail, your grandfather disciplining you and teaching you some ropes and a skill to channel your energy into does shape a person differently what the usual socialisation would result in. With the bits and pieces dropped by the MC, that he had his own shares of dealing with bullies just reinforces him making the choice of becoming mature and confident (up to cocky) rather early on instead of despairing into self-doubting husk.
I find it rather refreshing and appreciate to see a character be rough at times just for him/her to have room to grow. And that's something Cosy does pretty well so far. Lucy's 'redemption' in form of growing and Victoria's redemption going from high school bitch into protective member of MC's group are just two examples where people are confronted with 'fateful' encounters and given a choice to dare make a leap into personal growth.
Or they're transactional, or pretend to be, in a sort of 'get along' way. Lucy and Hannah both fail to be openly transactional for quite some time, but both of them get into it a bit later.
I don't need to judge it if everyone in the story is going to form the universe-specific perspective for me.
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I'm rendering my position based on the story itself. Jack, Victoria, and Lucy, all seem to have some issues with the setup. They voice them differently, but if they're judging it, then I try to work out why. Once they become fine with it (day 11), I let it go. Once we learn about the heads of the FF having multiple wives, it becomes easier to write it off as normal for the universe, even if only conditionally for Jack (and the other heads). The head of the Russell family being a woman, but still bound by the tradition, highlights how unusual this really all is.
Yes. But the point is that he does take advantage, not that I think there's a good way for it to have been avoided, or anything like that. I have thoughts on how it would've been avoided, but everything makes the intro longer, and pushes away from the genre (and/or introduces branching, which isn't happening). Besides, stripping away the rough part would take away a lot of what's done.
Sarah didn't have to go through this. She was transactional on her own terms, and any downside to her approach is mitigated by Lucy being open to it, and basically covering for her. Sarah doesn't return the favour to Lucy in the same way, but she's pretty clearly looking out for Lucy, which actually makes the Jack/Lucy situation look/feel worse. I was curious about why Cosy Creator said people didn't like her, because it took all of the one scene for me to like her more than Victoria. It took another couple of scenes for me to like her a lot more than Lucy, but that's mostly because I was worried about Lucy (in part because Jack is worried about Lucy, but also because other people too).
All of this is needed to get through what the narrative needs to done. So I'm not criticising it, I'm just pointing out that the story itself returns to it, highlights it as it happens, and foreshadows it. Sometimes I wonder why so much attention is drawn to it, and I'm really hoping it's not because Lucy or Victoria are destined to get screwed over.
As before, I don't think Cosy Creator is putting things into the story that aren't relevant. Some characters will absolutely have views and positions that turn out to be wrong (it's already happened), but when consensus starts to form around events, or we get second-person narration of it, it gives me a baseline.
To begin: I can only speak for myself, but I didn't read this as being hostile towards your feelings so much as wanting to understand what you're referring to. I know I'm genuinely curious about why you disliked the start of their relationship, and admire how thorough your messages have been. I absolutely respect your reading of events; I think most people here just viewed things in a more positive/hopeful light when they played. (Not for better or for worse — it's just differing expectations.)
Now, I notice that the primary arguments against the MC's behavior are that he's cocky and self-centered. And I agree! He is a flawed character, and his most notable attribute is his pride, which is both positive and negative. You've gone over the negatives extensively, but his pride also assists him in opening a dang café with three total employees, himself included, while being a full-time student! This has been his life's dream, so he ends up being pretty tunnel-visioned about its success; he mentions multiple times that he's pretty much done for if this doesn't work out, so he just doesn't think about any alternative. Even if he doesn't show it — or even think it — he's likely under a lot of stress, which may contribute to his obliviousness. If he was perfect from the start, it leaves no room for character development.
I think that you also may be reading too deep into some of these things, not the least of which being the idea of a "first- vs. second-person" dissonance. It's assumed that the player is meant to be taking on the role of the MC, and all of the second-person narration is noticed by him. The difference only exists in the writing style. For most general information, it uses second-person narration, which serves to keep the player engaged, immersing them in the role of the MC. When first-person narration is used, it's to present information in the format of dialogue, and usually gives slightly deeper insight into specific events. These moments lose the objectivity of the second-person narration in favor of displaying a more personal way of exploring the scene and the character. What's important is that neither of these two perspectives has any "priority" over the other; they will never clash, or call each other into question. Given the fact that you've left the MC's name as the default, I assume that you're consuming the media in a slightly different way than intended, distancing yourself from him, which could be the source of some of the friction you've experienced.
Another reason many people choose to view everything here in a more inherently positive light is simply the tone with which the game is presented, even before you play it. It's tagged as Romance on this site, and the description talks of "wholesome maledom" and "loving and kinky sex!" Given this, most players likely enter with the assumption that the MC is a good person overall. It makes it easier to forgive the small things he does, like the way he tends to (fail to) express gratitude or how he conveys his feelings.
Now, to defend — or at least explain — some of MC's actions:
One thing that's repeatedly brought up is his transactional nature — he always seems to want something from Lucy in return. There are two ways I can reason this: the first is that he's known this girl for a couple of days, and he's got a lot on his plate as is. It's understandable that he wouldn't be ready to be overly-charitable towards her initially. The second is that Lucy already seems to put herself down a lot; she doesn't want to put other people out, so giving her a way to help MC serves as an excuse to get her to accept his help.
In regards to his more selfish tendencies, I refer back to my second paragraph. He's put everything he has into this café, and he needs it to succeed. He's not necessarily in a bad place, all things considered, but he's teetering on the edge. However, he never actually tries to take advantage of people, as far as I recall — he's just focused on getting his own ducks in a row before worrying about others.
His oblivious nature, again, may be in part due to this tunnel vision he's adopted. He's too focused on his café to spare much thought for his social interactions. You mention catching on to hints about Lucy's personality and home life, but that's where we get some dramatic irony — the audience is likely aware that something's off, but the MC is too absorbed in his own matters to recognize it. Beyond all of that, in regards to Lucy's feelings for him, there's a chance that his confidence doesn't quite extend to his social skills. He may be hesitant to acknowledge her increasing love for him due to simple nervousness — anxiety about being wrong about his interpretation.
So, to summarize: I think your reading of the story is completely valid! Art should be designed to have people think about it, because if it didn't have room for interpretation, it would just be completely sterile and mindless. I just believe that a lot of the issues you have with the story and characters stem from the fact that you seem to be coming at it from a different angle compared to most people. Even if I do disagree on many points, I've found your comments to be really insightful about the game and characters, and I have to assume others do too! I don't think anyone here thought you had to "justify" your feelings, but rather wanted to share their own feelings on the matter, given how they differ.
- Jun 8, 2021
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Yeah, sorry, that was poor wording on my part, when I wrote "help your case" I meant it in a more casual way, you said you didnt like something that I liked, so I wanted to see your reasoning. I hope this interaction doesn't dissuade you from posting in the future, while I might not totally agree with you, this discussion has been enlightening and I hope to see more of your analysis in the future.
I wasn't up in arms about your post, I didn't agree with the idea that Jack was taking advantage of Lucy, so I wanted you to elaborate in hopes of, at the very least, understanding someone else' perspective on this VN.
And to address the bulk of your post, I think you are definitely right with the frame of mind thing, my first readthrough of every VN that I read I just lose myself in the story, not really thinking too deeply about anything. Then if I liked reading it I would reread it with a more critical eye, of course hindsight does change my perspective greatly on certain things, and this is definitely something I will have to think more carefully about in the future. How my understanding of a character changes after I have more knowledge about them.
I phrased the response a little too sharply because I was trying to cut down the wall of text. Honestly, I just really don't like derailing threads. I'm aware that I read too deeply into everything. So, no harm on my end. And my apologies too.
I do tend to have really out there reads, or pay way too much attention to certain things, hoping they'll be something. Most games disappoint me and a prop is often just a prop, lit poorly, or placed badly.
I appreciate it; as above, I'm more worried about derailing onto some weird read I'm getting; sorry for coming off harsh in the response. I really like losing myself in the story each time, and I'll only allow myself the knowledge the characters have, fighting the temptation to look beyond it.
I liked Sarah from my first playthrough. Lucy made that possible (she's the friend Lucy mentions, other than Hannah "sometimes"). I saw through the exterior, I saw various signals and hints that she was a lot better than the initial reaction, and Jack's openly teasing her made it clear he was either a gigantic flirt (yep), a degenerate pervert (yep), an idiot (yep), and/or really into her (yep). It's really just a comparative for me. Lucy comes in second to Sarah for me. At the end of the story, they'll all have their places, and they'll be different. There's only one Jack, and their skills divide them. I'm at peace with it.
If this were a darker game, I'd absolutely lean hard into reminding myself that everything will be okay. But because it's not, and I don't know what twists are coming (just that history clearly repeats itself), I let myself worry for Jack. And, by extension of how the world is setup, for everyone. I think that this inverse approach to the norm is what's giving me the wildly different perspective. It's probably why I immediately thought that Akatsuki was going to betray Jack. A series of actions followed to hint at it, and when the reveal basically covered what I'd seen, I wasn't thrilled.
I'll admit to not being sure about Lily. All evidence, as presented to Jack, suggests that she's not entirely in on it. But I'm also hopeful, as Jack is, that Sarah still has one parent who is putting her first.
This post is going to look huge, so spoiler tag time, and some briefer comments than I probably should make outside of it.
Yes, Jack takes advantage of everyone. Lucy doesn't. She helps people, and doesn't seem to want anything back. Everyone else seems to get that about her. They don't engage her in a transactional way. Jack is oblivious to it. (Victoria offers to do anything on the train, to get the job, and Lucy just gives it to her; to become Jack's second girlfriend, she just wants time.)
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Extremely cute story, really looking forward to 0.12, hope I get to read it in time!
It is fine to express how you feel, no matter if people agree or not. The easy way to deal with people is to not reply. Why you feel a certain way is your opinion, you do not need to reply or justify your post.
I read your post and some I agree with, some not. But you should not let others silence your thoughts. just my opinion.
peace