Difference between Japan and EN visual novel?

S3vatari0n

Active Member
May 9, 2020
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604
This is a common take by westerners. The japanese style of overly drawn out sex scenes is not something you see much in western porn. JAV vs western porn videos even show this trend to an extent, but it becomes very clear when you compare porn comics or porn games. I think it's hentai culture at play. Hentai culture depicts sex in some pretty unnatural ways, especially for the more hardcore types that involve female degradation and submission. You have woman narrating what is happening to them. "Oooooahhahhhah, this huge cock is reshaping my pussyyyy~~~ ooohahh I am a horrible mother who begs for her son's cock~~~~ UFhahhooowooo AWEFPOawjefjawoefjo AHaHAHHGGHOOOOOO ~~~~! My mind is going blank ~~~~ Fahweihfiwehafi IKUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU~~!!" This goes on and on for a long time, with the male degrading the woman and the woman degrading herself.

I fucking love stuff like this though lol. I need time to fap. And I derive much more arousal from the text and circumstances of the scene than the visual depiction of it. I can't do text only, but even a single CG would work. A style that is more common in the west is to have animations and stills that visualize the scene in a more dynamic way, but they skimp on the dialogue, sometimes being limited to something like "Ohhhh fuck me~~~!" "Yes~ Harder!" "I'm gonna cum!" End scene. If you just read the text and not sit there watching a 3 second loop for an unreasonably long time, the scene might end in like 20 seconds.

Of course, there are western devs that do a great job drawing out the scene with good sex dialogues and nice ramp up throughout the scene too.
Yeah, this is something I've actually come to appreciate in hentai. 20 page sex scene full of moaning and groaning and details on how the housewife blackmailed into being a club hostess is becoming addicted to cock? YES PLEASE. 5 panels of sex painted in Rembrandt-level detail, over and done wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am style? I appreciate the painter skill, but that's barely enough to qualify as a quick-fap. It's the same for me with VNs. If I fire one up, it's because I want the dirty details with the pretty pictures. And that's if I stick around long enough for the VN as I'm picky and am heavily biased in favour of ACT VNs.
 
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83wulf

Newbie
May 14, 2019
55
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I've been playing VNs for most of this century, and other adult games for longer (starting with Leisure Suit Larry on an Apple Macintosh when I was -far- too young).
So here are my long-winded two cents:

Japan is a bit stuck in youth worship and the kawaii thing. The stock characters that are used are also getting tiresome.

I'll explain. Japanese games are very often centered around a high-schooler MC and a slice-of-life approach with a bunch of trope characters with a “role”, like the tsundere (often twin-pigtailed, often blonde), the riskily young-looking “little sister”, the childhood friend who is suddenly on the radar (often a "Yamato Nadeshiko"-type), the mature teacher (or mom, or aunt), the really shy girl (usually with glasses), the very outgoing girl (often an “idol” or a tomboy), and the ultra-responsible student council president. These are only some of the cookie-cutter characters, there are many more.
This lack of originality is not necessarily bad, but the problem is far too often compounded by a distinct lack of individual characterisation. Often, it feels like European where the stock characters are a shortcut: a fallback the creator can use to skip any serious work developing and writing distinct personalities.

Japanese VN MCs are usually also lacking personality. This is probably deliberate, and meant to make it easier to self-insert and immerse yourself, but it often becomes jarring. In a VN, you are supposed to be within the MC's head, reading his innermost thoughts. In a typical Japanese VN, that is an unspeakably dull place, offensively bland. It makes you feel bad, to saddle the poor LI with the uninteresting, stone-faced loser that the average JP VN MC is.

As you may gather from this, I have been a bit bored by Japanese games of late. I have the feeling that they are stuck in a rut. Obviously, there are games that break from the norm (like Majikoi, which was bloody good and poked fun at a lot of Japanese culture), but I think the Japanese game companies are generally too risk-averse. Of course, the industry was badly burned by the and has typically been unwilling to engage with western audiences since. They are usually only looking at their domestic market, and I guess they know their target customers.


Regarding EN VNs, non-Japanese games have come such a long way in just a few years.
Katawa Shoujo was in many ways a watershed moment: a serious VN made by non-Japanese devs. There was some negative reaction to it in Japan, as while the story was set in Japan, it didn’t "properly" adhere to Japanese cultural traditions, and the title itself was provocative (the use of the word “katawa” which is an offensive term for disabled people).
(There is no pleasing some people, it seems. Katawa Shoujo even had a boring MC!).

English-language VNs are nowadays not as dependent on Japan, and they are much more varied and dynamic than the insular Japanese offerings, as is fitting, considering the variety of culture and experience in the rest of the world. And I'll second that they generally have a greater emphasis on the visual aspect of a VN. They are also meant for the entire world, not just Japan.

But the drawback of English-language VNs is all the milking. Some games have no skeleton, no plan, no proper direction. A lot of them seem to be a vehicle to keep a Patreon going, while keeping story development to a minimum and squeezing out a procession of tiered sexual content as gradually as possible (first a handjob, then a BJ, then either first sex or another BJ, another position, then get bored and introduce yet another girl, and so on). It is like the devs publish a 0.1 or a 0.2 with a good idea, feel out the audience, and then commence the never-ending milking without ever seemingly intending to finish the damn thing.

When does a thirst-trap become an actual scam?
Depends on what your reasonable expectations are, I suppose.

Sorry if I've been rambling.
 

Meaning Less

Engaged Member
Sep 13, 2016
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Japanese VN MCs are usually also lacking personality.
Yeah I would argue that this also depends on the demographics of the vn, usually stuff crafted towards the younger audience tend to have a more generic and younger self-insert guy and a bunch of girls flirting with him.
Thats not dissimilar from western vns I bet they just aren't younger because shota is shunned upon by patreon, otherwise I'm pretty sure we would be seeing a lot more younger guys in western vns also, since their content also tends to be geared towards the younger audience in general especially if you consider all the big titted momcest stuff.

But when talking about jp vns, the best stuff really shows up when you leave the sex oriented ones and go into more mainstream content, because those will not only have better subtitles but also better story with better characters in general and just occasional ecchi stuff.
 
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S3vatari0n

Active Member
May 9, 2020
761
604
...
Japanese games are very often centered around a high-schooler MC and a slice-of-life approach with a bunch of trope characters with a “role”,

...
Well, this is also true of all the western "(Totally not) Average Joe comes back from the military/college/foreign job to Average Town America and suddenly discovers everyone is a horny slut" VNs everywhere. Tropes will appear in everything, it's just how you use them that matters. Sometimes playing it straight is good, sometimes subverting them is the right thing to do.

It's also why I generally don't play slice-of-life VNs, and go for things like Taimanin Asagi, Bible Black, Prison Battleship, etc.
 

83wulf

Newbie
May 14, 2019
55
180
Tropes will appear in everything, it's just how you use them that matters. Sometimes playing it straight is good, sometimes subverting them is the right thing to do.
Which is what I said as well. Sometimes it serves a purpose. Sometimes it is just lazy. When you cut corners, you have to make up for it.

And I agree, there are tropes I don't like in western games, like "waking up from a coma" and the overpowered "Gary Stu" MC. (You know, the guy who enlists for 3 years, gets -all- the training and -all- the combat experience, all super secret black ops too, and retires as a competent multimillionaire entrepreneur, all the while having overcome the fallout of a tragic childhood. Hung as a horse, too).:rolleyes:

But while I indeed allow for some cringe-y tropes when it is an indie dev (i.e. someone in a basement), I am not as forgiving when it is done by professionals. Which is the case in Japan.
 

Meaning Less

Engaged Member
Sep 13, 2016
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But while I indeed allow for some cringe-y tropes when it is an indie dev (i.e. someone in a basement), I am not as forgiving when it is done by professionals. Which is the case in Japan.
But I would argue that this cringe difference is just cultural, for instance in japan muscular men are extremely funny and used as a comedy trope, which is why they tend to use more slender art in general for serious characters.

If you are deep into japanese culture you probably are going to see much more cringe in western stuff, and vice versa.
 
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desmosome

Conversation Conqueror
Sep 5, 2018
6,186
14,241
I've been playing VNs for most of this century, and other adult games for longer (starting with Leisure Suit Larry on an Apple Macintosh when I was -far- too young).
So here are my long-winded two cents:

Japan is a bit stuck in youth worship and the kawaii thing. The stock characters that are used are also getting tiresome.

I'll explain. Japanese games are very often centered around a high-schooler MC and a slice-of-life approach with a bunch of trope characters with a “role”, like the tsundere (often twin-pigtailed, often blonde), the riskily young-looking “little sister”, the childhood friend who is suddenly on the radar (often a "Yamato Nadeshiko"-type), the mature teacher (or mom, or aunt), the really shy girl (usually with glasses), the very outgoing girl (often an “idol” or a tomboy), and the ultra-responsible student council president. These are only some of the cookie-cutter characters, there are many more.
This lack of originality is not necessarily bad, but the problem is far too often compounded by a distinct lack of individual characterisation. Often, it feels like European where the stock characters are a shortcut: a fallback the creator can use to skip any serious work developing and writing distinct personalities.

Japanese VN MCs are usually also lacking personality. This is probably deliberate, and meant to make it easier to self-insert and immerse yourself, but it often becomes jarring. In a VN, you are supposed to be within the MC's head, reading his innermost thoughts. In a typical Japanese VN, that is an unspeakably dull place, offensively bland. It makes you feel bad, to saddle the poor LI with the uninteresting, stone-faced loser that the average JP VN MC is.

As you may gather from this, I have been a bit bored by Japanese games of late. I have the feeling that they are stuck in a rut. Obviously, there are games that break from the norm (like Majikoi, which was bloody good and poked fun at a lot of Japanese culture), but I think the Japanese game companies are generally too risk-averse. Of course, the industry was badly burned by the and has typically been unwilling to engage with western audiences since. They are usually only looking at their domestic market, and I guess they know their target customers.


Regarding EN VNs, non-Japanese games have come such a long way in just a few years.
Katawa Shoujo was in many ways a watershed moment: a serious VN made by non-Japanese devs. There was some negative reaction to it in Japan, as while the story was set in Japan, it didn’t "properly" adhere to Japanese cultural traditions, and the title itself was provocative (the use of the word “katawa” which is an offensive term for disabled people).
(There is no pleasing some people, it seems. Katawa Shoujo even had a boring MC!).

English-language VNs are nowadays not as dependent on Japan, and they are much more varied and dynamic than the insular Japanese offerings, as is fitting, considering the variety of culture and experience in the rest of the world. And I'll second that they generally have a greater emphasis on the visual aspect of a VN. They are also meant for the entire world, not just Japan.

But the drawback of English-language VNs is all the milking. Some games have no skeleton, no plan, no proper direction. A lot of them seem to be a vehicle to keep a Patreon going, while keeping story development to a minimum and squeezing out a procession of tiered sexual content as gradually as possible (first a handjob, then a BJ, then either first sex or another BJ, another position, then get bored and introduce yet another girl, and so on). It is like the devs publish a 0.1 or a 0.2 with a good idea, feel out the audience, and then commence the never-ending milking without ever seemingly intending to finish the damn thing.

When does a thirst-trap become an actual scam?
Depends on what your reasonable expectations are, I suppose.

Sorry if I've been rambling.
You might have embellished the western side and was overly critical of the jap VNs, but I agree with you for the most part. That said, the western market has their own tropes (a lot of same tropes actually, just not overtly animesque) they fall back on for much the same reasons.

I'm not so intimately knowledgeable on the non-nukige VNs on the japan front because I have not played too many. I honestly just cringe at the prospect of playing some wish fulfilment high school life with this typical socially awkward japanese kid MC.

I probably missed out on some amazing classics, but I rarely play adult games just for a compelling story (feel good, emotional, or even heavy subjects). And I'd rather play western games if I was in the mood for some romance or feel good stuff (which is not often). The western stuff at least has some eye candy.

Nukiges? Hell ya man. Japan all the way. Especially the corruption, rather than harem based ones. The twisted mind of japan shines here lol. As stated earlier, I really like hentai dialogues and VA so that helps.