Mod [DMD] DMD Meta Discussion

[MrBree]

Dating My Daughter seems to bring up lots of interesting, and rather strongly opinionated views on various topics. (Incest, Rape, sex education, etc)

With 250 pages, the main DMD thread is already rather bloated. Let's place any more meta discussions about these topics here.

 

[MrBree]

To kick off a little, we need to keep in mind that DMD is an adult game, with the corresponding game and porn logic necessary to ensure a successful game. But it also has to maintain the suspension of disbelief, which is difficult given the taboo level behind the nature of the game.

I'd like to quote @Jeff-Steel from the main DMD thread

Aitan_3 (a writer for DMD) and I (a credited idea DMD member) are on this forum for many reasons. (None of it dealing with salesmanship, btw). One main reason are the informative discussions that sometimes "overly" break out in these game design areas including the disconnect between real life societal views on incest, rape, and D's knowledge of sex along with her mental and emotional limitations on incest.

BTW, I am not here to unfairly or unwittingly use this this forum and its members for game idea reasearch. It is a great sounding board. The idea is to create a game that is more realistically immersive than other adult visual novels. That's the reason for the slow burn and the reason you find rewrites In DMD as it moves forward. So when forum members put forth in this forum the "Huh? That makes no sense or that flys in the face of my ideas of x,y, and z," those questioning posts are the same issues discussed in game design.

So I'd like to directly ask Jeff -- what topics would be most helpful in discussing in order to make the game more realistic?

 

[Jeff Steel]

To kick off a little, we need to keep in mind that DMD is an adult game, with the corresponding game and porn logic necessary to ensure a successful game. But it also has to maintain the suspension of disbelief, which is difficult given the taboo level behind the nature of the game.

I'd like to quote @Jeff-Steel from the main DMD thread


So I'd like to directly ask Jeff -- what topics would be most helpful in discussing in order to make the game more realistic?

I'll be back later - probably tomorrow, but here in my opinion is the key issue in DMD, and it is not realism per se. If this game is semi-realistic (to whatever degree) what do you need to do to get an audience buy-in. Game of Thrones created a semi-realistic world that we bought into. It is not a realistic world in many levels, but the audience has bought in.

If the audience in DMD is finding certain disconnects (e.g. Daughter's innocence) how do you rewrite or add to the story to help the audience accept or understand that issue and get rid of the disconnect. For example, Daughter is going to continue in this path - how do you ensure that buyin?

 

[MrBree]

This game is far short of "realistic"...

Did I mention that there has to be a balance of porn game mechanics and RL? Due to the fact that we are talking about F/D incest, well, that's a complete taboo. There is almost no way to make it 'realistic' and still playable.

Do you have any idea of how to make it 'realistic' and still fun to play?

 

[Gomly1980]

It didn't really end well last time round.

The sex ed conversation started up because some of us prefer a couple of the other women over the daughter.

We don't want anything changing and none of us were "whining" we just have our own preferences. The problem is some people are so defensive over a game it got beyond a joke. People have opinions, not everyone shares the same one, other people can't seem to accept that.

 

[RobJoy]

I do not understand why a lot of you are arguing in this particular thread over issues that would be best discussed separate from the game experience.

For those irked by the age difference or whatnot, biologically a young pussy is genetically essential as much as breathing air is. You see it in the animal world, you see it practiced in plenty of countries in the world and it has been like this since the age of time. No point discussing this aspect.

MrDots has pulled together a winning team of individuals who are able to deliver a game we keep coming back to month after month.

This is what really matters.

 

[baka]

i agree with RobJoy, i don't understand why we need to discuss DmD as it where a real life documentary, its a damn game, like many other games, we have monsters, aliens, magic, horror etc, to be entertained or for DmD to get excited about. its up to the player how serious you want to take it, but i don't get the reason why, its a game. if you don't like it why the hell do you play it?. i don't play 95% of the games out there, why? because i don't like the genre/type or simply i don't have time or i know i will get bored fast. DmD is a game and it will make us feel emotions and hopefully excitement, if you feel sick and you hate what you play, theres a simple solution, stop playing it. we can discuss if we like something or not, but overall we should like the game "main" idea, thats why we are playing it. i dont like Lucas, but i like D and the situation with the father. its not that i like Lucas and i hate the situation between Father and D, thats stupid. i would not play it. yes, we could discuss, age difference, is incest ok, is she a dumb retarded girl etc, but why? its called a "game" for a reason, to play it and get into the story. we don't need to like everything, we can have opinion, but its not life and death, its not real. lets have fun and lets enjoy D getting corrupted and fucked (hopefully in the next few updates)

 

[MrBree]

i agree with RobJoy, i don't understand why we need to discuss DmD as it where a real life documentary,

I would say simply -- There HAVE been lots of discussions about the context of the game, to the point where they had to be shut down in the main thread. Since that is true, I'm quite sure you can be happy and completely ignore this thread.

For those who are interested talking further, this thread exists. I find it interesting myself to see the perspectives brought up. They don't have to be 'true', just have valid viewpoints. And since at least two members of the DMD team are on this site, we ALSO have a chance to impart ideas as to how to ensure the game is even better.

Win win win all around.
You can ignore this thread and stay safe in the main one. You can discuss here while not bothering those who are not interested. And also boost the game? Sounds good to me.

 

[MrBree]

Yes. Audience buy-in is vital. MrDots showed the early prototype of D on 8chan (Hentai Games General) about 1.5 years ago. D's body type was very similar to Jennifer's in DMD. Posters were "but this is loli" and D was given balloon-like boobs and too-big ass. MrDots wisely knew he had to pander to his prospective buy-ins and did so in order to make DMD a going concern.
But somehow he thought it was a good idea to trick players that the setting is realistic (there is just TOO much circumstantial evidence--I could place this game within a 100-mile radius). That was the part that lost me. It would have been far better to level with players upfront that this game was "out there" in a twilight zone to start getting used to the idea. I believe this was done purposely to garner more buy-ins.
It is a huge tribute how popular DMD is considering all the Patreon games shenanigans that have taken place these last few years. MrDots can only separate himself from these other abortions/ripoffs by : finishing DMD faster than 2019 ; start a new game and improve the storytelling (the proofreading in DMD is also beyond terrible). DMD would be a stepping-stone.

Can you tell us more about the prototype? pix? link?
And the setting placement?

 

[baka]

I don't get it, I am discussing, giving my p.o.v. or do you mean I can't if I don't agree with the other dudes? that means its not a open discussion and you should be PM each other instead. my criticism is that you take a game too seriously, its odd because if you really have a need to share how you think about incest, then you should involve yourself into the real world where we have "real" issues about that. why do we need to take "outside" the game realm and involve DmD at all? we could just a thread that discuss incest overall. D is a fictive character and not a person that we harm while playing the game.

 

[MrBree]

I don't get it, I am discussing, giving my p.o.v. or do you mean I can't if I don't agree with the other dudes? that means its not a open discussion and you should be PM each other instead. my criticism is that you take a game too seriously, its odd because if you really have a need to share how you think about incest, then you should involve yourself into the real world where we have "real" issues about that. why do we need to take "outside" the game realm and involve DmD at all? we could just a thread that discuss incest overall. D is a fictive character and not a person that we harm while playing the game.

This is a Meta thread.
Meta == at a more abstract level. In other words, talk about the issues! I specifically set it up so people who were cluttering up the main thread with these topics could continue their discussion without bothering people like you who were annoyed by it. Thus your complaints are a non sequitur. We did create a new thread. You are on it, and complaining about it......

The MAIN Thread about the game itself. Ova there ---

You must be registered to see the links

 

[baka]

im not annoyed, im just curious about it, but you don't say anything constructive, just complaining that i have posted and really not answering my criticism. im off topic already doing so and fulfilling the meta criteria. what im after is why the need, the things im focused is the blaming of incest in a game and the age difference that is discussed like DmD is a part of the real world issues. so a fantasy is real and should be consider an act of realism, its like if i have thoughts about fucking someone i should be punished for it. is this too much or am i still inside this meta conversation?

 

[MrBree]

im not annoyed, im just curious about it, but you don't say anything constructive, just complaining that i have posted and really not answering my criticism. im off topic already doing so and fulfilling the meta criteria. what im after is why the need, the things im focused is the blaming of incest in a game and the age difference that is discussed like DmD is a part of the real world issues. so a fantasy is real and should be consider an act of realism, its like if i have thoughts about fucking someone i should be punished for it. is this too much or am i still inside this meta conversation?

Perhaps I misunderstood your post wherein you said

i agree with RobJoy, i don't understand why we need to discuss DmD as it where a real life documentary,

and followed up with

my criticism is that you take a game too seriously, its odd because if you really have a need to share how you think about incest, then you should involve yourself into the real world where we have "real" issues about that. why do we need to take "outside" the game realm and involve DmD at all? we could just a thread that discuss incest overall.

As of right now, your posts read to me as a complaint that we are actually discussing RL issues within the context of DMD. Which is why I said it doesn't make sense within this thread.
Your posts don't read very well, and are easy to confuse as negative gibberish. Are you a native English speaker?
If you are trying to be constructive, I appreciate it. But it would be helpful if you clarified a tad better.

My response to what I think you are trying to say is that fantasies should be kept there, correct. especially Taboo ones. (Even imagining real world incestual relations makes me vomit. I can still enjoy the fantasy stories.) But the art of telling stories, including DMD, has it own set of rules. Part of that is 'world building', borrowing knowledge and understanding from known information (aka the real world) to build that game world. So building the game AND understanding the game relies on our own experiences within the real world. Thus, discussion here about how the RL applies to the game is very useful in understanding how the game 'world' should be built.

Me? I enjoy storytelling. I enjoy philosophy. Do I particularly care about how this stuff applies to the game? Not really. I just enjoy the game regardless. But for me it is rather fun to have it discussed. That is all. The discussion is worth if just to hear interesting and different perspectives on such sensitive topics, regardless of the reason why. I might be considered weird, but that is rather FUN to me.

 

[Ungawa]

-snip-

IMO, a story is a way to set a bias to zero and have people look at things with a new angle. I tried in the main thread to discuss how taboos and such can be set up in the real world. Within a story, you're far enough back that you can look at issues without the consequences that you'd get IRL. So I find that commonality with your second paragraph.

I enjoy storytelling just as well, but I'm currently waiting for DmD to get a bit further with the other women. Not a big fan of the game since it's 3D and I think the story has a weak premise. But it's garnered enough attention that I'm fascinated in the people that come into it with the perspectives to enhance the story even further. The game just really need that "umph" that I feel it currently lacks to entice me. I just haven't found it yet.

 

[baka]

but DmD is ficton and fiction should not be restricted by others, otherwise we are going close to censorship and forced morals of others. fiction is about freedom to create whatever, of course based on the knowledge and experience of the artist, but nevertheless his own.

everything is connected to everything if we are going into that abyss of thoughts, so how can fiction be apart from reality?, but that doesnt mean we need to apply fiction as something real that will affect the world we leave in. yes, someone will not know the difference and that can be dangerous, but i hope we are adults and know how to deal with it.

no, DmD is great, is fiction and should not be altered. but if we want to talk about how it affect you, well, go ahead and spit out what emotion DmD creates in you. me? im enjoying playing DmD as bit by bit D gets corrupted. but would i like if D where a real girl? no fucking way. i would not like that D would get corrupted by some sick father. so the fiction is just one way for me and will not cause me to became incestuous.

 

[MrBree]

-snip-

I think you are quite not understanding things here. We are not 'restricting' the game by discussing it. We actually enhance it. Especially since it is not finished, and two members of the developer team are on this site... By discussing our understanding of the game, we can help them develop it better. But I believe I already told you that.

We are not talking about making the game 'real' and applying the game to the real world, but making the GAME better by applying the context of our actual world, and how we believe people should act. That is world building. That is story telling.

And YES, fiction should ALWAYS be altered. That is the nature of folklore, of tales and stories. They are passed on and changed and expanded upon. My kids currently enjoy the Disney movie "The Descendants" for some bizarre reason. Literally an adaptation of adaptations of adaptations of folklore. I might be skipping one or two steps there. Universes of stories based on ancient tales.
Once a story is told, the author no longer controls it. Stories are memes. They are viruses.
Each person tweaks and twists tales to fit themselves. Perhaps only within their mind's eye as they visualize a book, or how they interpret it. Or perhaps within a game mod. Or within a wholesale 'fan fiction' adoption, or outright recreating parodies or adaptations. Stories continue. They are not set in stone.

Right here, right now, I am going to enjoy the DMD story -- by analyzing it. That's why I'm here.
To stop getting sidetracked ....
I kind of concur with @virtuvoid in that the story isn't necessarily compelling. But we are talking about a porn story here. Even 'not that great' is is already a way above most similar stories on the site. It's a very low low bar.
Most if all is forgiven because the character is sexy/cute and so can get away with distracting us away from story flaws. ;-) But that is the point of the game anyway. The character is the focus of the game. The better the character, the better the game plays. I think that's almost entirely where most of the game complaints come from -- where the characters fall flat.

 

[Goatface]

Actually my biggest complaint about DMD [I had a prolonged back-and-forth discussion with a DMD writer, @Aitan_3, pp.192-93 of the main thread] is that the writers don't allow the characters to interact with their surroundings, and each other, with any independence whatsoever.
I believe in the "clockmaker" analogy : after crafting/creating a clock, the maker steps aside and the clock becomes independent.
Likewise after a writer chooses his details--time, place, characters, etc.--he steps aside. Sure, he may be guiding things but lightly. These writers are heavy-handed and non-professional.
Basically, the guy told me "Think whatever you want; we will do whatever we want."
Since the dev-team seems to have very intelligent guys involved, I dismiss any claims of incompetence. The "root of all evil" comes to the fore...

The lack of character / interactive playing depth is probably the earmark of an inexperienced storyteller. Notwithstanding, the game has drawn significant enough of a following that it's encompassed 200 pages of discussion. Not bad, for an "inexperienced designer". While I do agree that this game could be a lot more in depth, I think, as I believe someone said above, that it would take a complete re-write in order to achieve it at this point. You have to think about the amount of time and money that has already gone into the project, and, from a financial perspective, ask if it would be worth it.

At 200+ pages on this forum alone, though... I would probably consider it, if i were in their positions. The premise of the game itself, while certainly controversial, has a lot of elements that (again) could make it fantastic.

In the end, if they make it, someone will play it / pay for it.

 

[cryzaeford]

The lack of character / interactive playing depth is probably the earmark of an inexperienced storyteller. Notwithstanding, the game has drawn significant enough of a following that it's encompassed 200 pages of discussion. Not bad, for an "inexperienced designer". While I do agree that this game could be a lot more in depth, I think, as I believe someone said above, that it would take a complete re-write in order to achieve it at this point. You have to think about the amount of time and money that has already gone into the project, and, from a financial perspective, ask if it would be worth it.

At 200+ pages on this forum alone, though... I would probably consider it, if i were in their positions. The premise of the game itself, while certainly controversial, has a lot of elements that (again) could make it fantastic.

In the end, if they make it, someone will play it / pay for it.

well I don't mind the lack of environment interaction cuz thats how the original Visual Novels started out anyway, "Just make a choice and see what happens next" makes things simpler in my opinion

 

[Jeff Steel]

Genetic Sexual Attraction is an issue posted by patrons months back.

You must be registered to see the links

It's not a issue openly written into the game and I have no idea if the main design team ever discussed it. IMO, writing in a GSA element is as interesting as writing in concern for STDs.

 

[Goatface]

Sadly, it seems too late in the game for any major rewrite of DMD.
But IF we somehow coutld, another huge weakness of DMD is that D should be the (seen) main character.
If her father cared for her at all, he should try to promote her future happiness. If she was developing a crush for him, he should tell her that their relationship is as a family. She should find an appropriate mate in due course.
Instead, in DMD, the MC can't help himself as his lust overwhelms him. This is grooming/molesting, not love/romance.
If D were encouraged to "meet more people your own age" and it didn't work out for her--in RL this attempt should take several years--then maybe-maybe--she could confess to F that "nobody else comes close to you." In RL, an honest father would inform his daughter that what you see now (my personality) is not what you would have seen in my younger days...
But this is porn and a one-eyed monk cannot be left outside the temple. So, literary contrivances are assured to bring on an inevitable coupling. IRL, no contrivances, no coupling. These two disparate results are so different, but appropriate.

The one point that seems to be missing in this equation is that F/D have been separated for many years. Perhaps the normal bond that you would apply to this circumstance wouldn't be applicable because they didn't have the better part of two decades together. So, when D moves in with MC, it's as a very young adult moving in with an older, more experienced man, who just so happens to have the title of "dad". Without a deep bond with the man that raised, cared for, and protected her, to her, he's not really "dad," so to speak. Does this weave correctness into the fabric of the moral dilemma? Certainly not, but it does stand to reason that this sort of occurrence would be dramatically more feasible than if he were the man that raised her. I sill maintain that a route that allows him to be a good father, while boning any and every other character would be good... Or, with D seeing that MC is really a sex-addicted player, and with their F/D bond getting stronger, maybe she could move there, bring friends from school that he then corrupts and sleeps with, culminating with an all-girl sleepover at the end of the year, with F as the pivot man... if THAT branched into a sexual relationship, then at least there is an underlying reason.