Mod [DMD] DMD Meta Discussion

[Jeff Steel]

Another item discussed was hopeful MFF outcomes, MCs sexual exploits with other women, and the main storyline with D. Since so much effort has been made to create a slow trust growth relationship with D which is currently in play regardless of which path taken, when MC cheats on D with other women, it somehow seems a betrayal of his "character" that bends over backwards to slowly gain D's trust.

Is the "trustworthy" MC a true character? Then the cheating MC is incongruent to that character.

Is the MC really not trustworthy and he it is a facade? Then it probably kills the game for 50% of the patrons.

Is the MC a little of both? Then infuse his inner monologue with more self doubt and wondering.

 

[Goatface]

Another item discussed was hopeful MFF outcomes, MCs sexual exploits with other women, and the main storyline with D. Since so much effort has been made to create a slow trust growth relationship with D which is currently in play regardless of which path taken, when MC cheats on D with other women, it somehow seems a betrayal of his "character" that bends over backwards to slowly gain D's trust.

Is the "trustworthy" MC a true character? Then the cheating MC is incongruent to that character.

Is the MC really not trustworthy and he it is a facade? Then it probably kills the game for 50% of the patrons.

Is the MC a little of both? Then infuse his inner monologue with more self doubt and wondering.

The moral dilemma is real. Sleep with D, and have a faithful, incestuous relationship, or sleep with everyone? I still stand by my "Sleep with everyone EXCEPT D" approach to the subject, as that is how I would personally handle it.

 

[Jeff Steel]

The one point that seems to be missing in this equation is that F/D have been separated for many years. Perhaps the normal bond that you would apply to this circumstance wouldn't be applicable because they didn't have the better part of two decades together. So, when D moves in with MC, it's as a very young adult moving in with an older, more experienced man, who just so happens to have the title of "dad". Without a deep bond with the man that raised, cared for, and protected her, to her, he's not really "dad," so to speak. Does this weave correctness into the fabric of the moral dilemma? Certainly not, but it does stand to reason that this sort of occurrence would be dramatically more feasible than if he were the man that raised her. I sill maintain that a route that allows him to be a good father, while boning any and every other character would be good... Or, with D seeing that MC is really a sex-addicted player, and with their F/D bond getting stronger, maybe she could move there, bring friends from school that he then corrupts and sleeps with, culminating with an all-girl sleepover at the end of the year, with F as the pivot man... if THAT branched into a sexual relationship, then at least there is an underlying reason.

Interesting your idea of MC as a sex-addicted player. I think there is something there. He is the trustworthy father, but also has other drives. Elena appears to be sexually driven (or addicted) as well. I personally approve the way Elena has been used in this game to "educate" other characters. -- Further twist - as far as the story goes, the last sexual partner we know MC had before this story was Rachel. He has porn but no indication of a girlfriend over the past 10 years. If this is true - hypothetically - is there something about Daughter that has brought MC back to a drive to be with others sexually again? That has been an arguement I have posted. -- She's like that character from movies like Breakfast at Tiffany's or Gigi, that transform the characters around her.

 

[Jeff Steel]

The moral dilemma is real. Sleep with D, and have a faithful, incestuous relationship, or sleep with everyone? I still stand by my "Sleep with everyone EXCEPT D" approach to the subject, as that is how I would personally handle it.

There is a lot of discussion over in Patreon on honest MFF relationships with Daughter in an open polyamory style. With Elena in the mix (and Georgina if scripted correctly) this looks like easy storyline route. Being all for every MFF route possible, I've been advocating heavily for this route and less of a cheating route.

D12's D/Elena shower scene and the D/Georgina photoshoot scene are right on point, as far as I am concerned, with following this route.

I hope this is the route taken after several of us gave heated patron posts two months ago.

 

[Jeff Steel]

Art and Writing

I "think" I have been noticing an increased rise in artwork quality - both the rendering quality itself and the composition (coordination of placement, lighting, background). I look back at D1 and compare it to D10-12, and I think the growth is clearly obvious. Am I wrong?

As for the writing, and Aitan can talk more about this that I can, one possible problem is multiple writers who coordinate ideas via email as they live scattered across the world.

I grew up with my mother and father working in LA in episodic television (on was in directing and the other in editing). Writers in episodic TV often get together in a room and throw out ideas, assistants keep notes, they come to a consensus, and the assigned writer then closes out that script. Offer time there is a lead writer (sometimes wearing s producer hat) that keeps overall control of the shows over arc. There is also a person keeping a "history book" (can't remember the exact term) which logs relationships of characters, locations, and items through the show so, if a character reappears two season later, there is a log of what went on before in order to keep continuity. I am not sure how,much of this "TV" structure used by the DMD team. (Well, I do know that one writer for DMD posted he keeps a screen-shot log of the game so he can refer back to dialogue and scenes).

I don't know what I really feel about a major rewrite of DMD to clean up everything possible. Since MrDot's skill seems to be getting better, I think I'd rather see him continue on this and more projects than spend time rewriting something I've already played.

Now, perhaps, he pushes the majority of rewrite work to a small defined team of writers who just work that issue, while MrDots presses ahead with new content.

 

[Jeff Steel]

The single most important DMD scene was when MC told D that it was actually Rachel who broke up their family. D has been emotionally distraught over losing a cohesive family group since MC's divorce. She wants a family, not a lover. MC is taking sexual advantage of her--I do not like!
But the show/game must go on and people are deluding themselves that this is about love and romance. All the females lusting for MC are largely unconcerned about D's feelings. Except for Elena (who D is starting to see through), the others don't have to restrain themselves for D's sake. But the MC is devolving into someone that D would be better off without.

I'm not quite sure if MC was being truthful when he said it was Rachel's fault they broke up. In creating a game where MC will have a chance to score with half the female cast, DMD set up the following incongruity: "I never cheated on your mother - but I will secretly cheat on you while I slowly convince you to cheat on me."

Many have said they are playing a D-only path - perhaps because of that issue. Me, I'm running every path - even if it involves doing that cranky old lady from the nude beach. The MC that can cheat on D is the guy who cheated on Rachel.

In the best of all worlds, this game would have several moral paths, much like the Star Wars games and Bioshock, with the nature of your choices not only creating a different outcome, but as well, the nature of your choices revealing the actual nature of your path. (I.e., the cheating father would, in the future, have a reveal that he did cheat on Rachel with MCs paramour from 10!years ago showing up -- while if MC does not cheat in DMD, this history reveal scene would be the opposite).

As far as this not being a love and romance story, that is what it is trying to be. I've fed oodles of romance articles and reasearch to them. I believe the 10-kisses sceen on D10 came out of my post and links on kisses and some 25 variations. (Never did get an acknowledgement on that but I'm assuming).

If your view this is game is failing as a romance story, what elements are there and what are missing that cause you to believe that? If you think MC is bad for D and she is better off without him, why?

I do think this game straddles whether or not the MC is good. In the "bone everyone" path this is IMO the most troublesome issue for the story to reconcile. In the "D only" path, the type and level of manipulation (or encouragement) by MC has to balanced carefully. This is why I have advocated and discussed that it is more interesting if D were the protagonist of this story. The more agency we give to D, the more she drives the story, and the more we see this story as D's story arc and not the MC ... the more interesting this VN becomes. (Who is the protagonist and who has the more interesting story arc in Seven and a Half Weeks for example).

 

[mattius77]

For me, by far the most appealing aspect of the gameplay so far is that the 'trainer' element applies to the MC as well as the target of the corruption. He's learning how to succumb to his desires in a tangible fashion, and that sort of inner monologue is explored in much more depth than these games typically provide. Usually it's just italicized text (cos that's how you indicate thought, see) and the MC going, "OMG, is she touching herself?!" Or some superficial thing. In DMD, they actually lay out the thought progression that leads down this path.

Conversely, my only real complaint about the game is the relative disparity between D's physical and emotional ages. It's as if the devs and writers want to have some level of Loli payoff, but goddamn do they like them some boobies. (And let's not forget that bubble butt) So while you're clearly looking at a mature specimen, you certainly are not ever talking to one. And tbh that's a little weird.

I still love the game and await every update.

 

[greyelf]

... that D should be the (seen) main character ...
If she was developing a crush for him, he should tell her that their relationship is as a family. She should find an appropriate mate in due course.

The game is named "Dating My Daughter" which implies two things:
a. that the main character is not the daughter but the one trying to date her.
b. that the person trying to date the daughter is one of her parents.

I believe the name of game who's story-line you are describing would be something like "Helping My Daughter Learn About Dating"

 

[greyelf]

You're "insisting" on retaining the original title.

No, I'm suggesting that you're describing a different game!

The two core story-device changes you have suggested (different main character and different base premise) would result in totally different end product, thus not the same game.

There is nothing wrong with the basic premise of the existing game (even if some may not like the subject matter), what the main contentions (disagreements?) seem to be about is some of the execution of the story-lines and the agency.

One of the main contentions (aside from incest) is the fact that if the MC gets caught having sex with someone else the game either GAME-OVERs or the D gets upset. Which I think is understandable in a game about Dating a particular person, because I have yet to met a female that is either happy or understanding when they find out that their (potential?) partner is cheating on them and more often as not the female will dump (dissociate with) their partner as quick as possible thus the GAME-OVER.

 

[greyelf]

I could only guess at the developers true motivations for doing the things that they do, and while those would be based on things that we have seen them do and things that they have said, they would still be guesses and not facts.

There are a number of issues the developers have to over come:
1. Time compression:
Generally romance between two people with little or no (recent?) knowledge about each other takes time to progress from first meeting, through getting to know and feel safe with each other, to having some light forms of physical/sexual intimacy, to finally having sexual intercourse for the first time. Remember the current elapsed time in the game is only 12 days of intractable time between the father and daughter, and the developers have had to fit weeks if not months of romance into that short time.

2. Innocence and the lost of it, both mentally and physically:
For many females both of these things are a big thing, especially the second one. Many seem to find the idea that someone in their late teens can still be innocent (especially mentally) unrealistic in these modern times of smart-phones / social media / on-line porn, but maybe those people are only projecting their own experiences / biases onto the D character. I know a number of females (and males for that matter) that use feature phones and that don't buy into social media, I have no idea about the porn part as that is generally not a topic that comes up socially.

3. Players and Patrons
Make a game that people looking for (semi) interactive porn will be interesting in playing, and a project that people will want to donate their money to so that the developers can spend time making said game.

4. Characters that fit the core premise of a father dating their daughter:

A. Father:
Based on what little we have been told about the time between his break up with the mother and the reasons for the breakup we can infer than he has had little or no sexual relations in that time, and that he found the mother physically sexually appealing. We could wonder why he isn't hitting on the receptionist who flirts with him but maybe he isn't ready to move on yet, or thinks she's just being friendly, or that he's worried about have a (sexual / romantic) relationship with a co-worker, etc... but we don't know for sure because we haven't been told.

We can also infer that he loves his daughter but has an outdated mental image (both physical and behavioural) of her, which is confronted when he meets her again and discovers she has grow up (and outwards) to physically resemble the mother. The subconscious mind is a cruel thing and can react to visual signals we wish it didn't, it also doesn't help that the player gets to chose to to direct the father towards being sexually interested in the daughter which is hardly surprising in game with this core premise.

B. Daughter:
For the daughter to lose her innocence (mentally and physically) the writers need to come up with a reason for her to still have it, and those reasons need to hold some water. They chose to use:-
i. A manipulative mother who is keeping the daughter like she is so that she is easier to use as a token to further her new partners business, which in turn furthers her own life style.
ii. A religious school / upbringing to reduce the chances of exposure to sexual experiences/knowledge, not to be confused with Reproduction Studies that may be taught in such schools.
iii. A slutty best girlfriend who's sexual actions and advancements are used to make the daughter weary of doing such things herself, because the mother (a person the daughter currently trusts) keeps telling the daughter the girlfriend's actions are wrong.
For the daughter to consider the father (who she's been told cheated on her mother) suitable as a potentially date-able person, she first has to come to terms with dumping her existing boyfriend and going against her mother's wishes, she has learn to trust the father then come to the decision that he may be worthy, and then there's the whole incest topic to over come for both of them let alone the subject of introducing her to the world of sexual interactions.

We like to try to associate words like believable and realistic with the story-lines of porn related interactive fiction/games but because they generally requiring sexual interactions within a very short time frame then by their very nature they can't really be that believable or realistic in a general sense can they?

 

[kamipop]

This game is art, I mean I'm used to 2D VNs, and let me tell you, I was put off originally by it being 3D, but this game melted my heart man, it has got me questioning my 2D vows, she is so pure, the Dad fell for her but damn I did too, I love your game and I really hope it is updated with more content.

 

[Jeff Steel]

I could only guess at the developers true motivations for doing the things that they do, and while those would be based on things that we have seen them do and things that they have said, they would still be guesses and not facts.

There are a number of issues the developers have to over come:
1. Time compression:
Generally romance between two people with little or no (recent?) knowledge about each other takes time to progress from first meeting, through getting to know and feel safe with each other, to having some light forms of physical/sexual intimacy, to finally having sexual intercourse for the first time. Remember the current elapsed time in the game is only 12 days of intractable time between the father and daughter, and the developers have had to fit weeks if not months of romance into that short time.

2. Innocence and the lost of it, both mentally and physically:
For many females both of these things are a big thing, especially the second one. Many seem to find the idea that someone in their late teens can still be innocent (especially mentally) unrealistic in these modern times of smart-phones / social media / on-line porn, but maybe those people are only projecting their own experiences / biases onto the D character. I know a number of females (and males for that matter) that use feature phones and that don't buy into social media, I have no idea about the porn part as that is generally not a topic that comes up socially.

3. Players and Patrons
Make a game that people looking for (semi) interactive porn will be interesting in playing, and a project that people will want to donate their money to so that the developers can spend time making said game.

4. Characters that fit the core premise of a father dating their daughter:

A. Father:
Based on what little we have been told about the time between his break up with the mother and the reasons for the breakup we can infer than he has had little or no sexual relations in that time, and that he found the mother physically sexually appealing. We could wonder why he isn't hitting on the receptionist who flirts with him but maybe he isn't ready to move on yet, or thinks she's just being friendly, or that he's worried about have a (sexual / romantic) relationship with a co-worker, etc... but we don't know for sure because we haven't been told.

We can also infer that he loves his daughter but has an outdated mental image (both physical and behavioural) of her, which is confronted when he meets her again and discovers she has grow up (and outwards) to physically resemble the mother. The subconscious mind is a cruel thing and can react to visual signals we wish it didn't, it also doesn't help that the player gets to chose to to direct the father towards being sexually interested in the daughter which is hardly surprising in game with this core premise.

B. Daughter:
For the daughter to lose her innocence (mentally and physically) the writers need to come up with a reason for her to still have it, and those reasons need to hold some water. They chose to use:-
i. A manipulative mother who is keeping the daughter like she is so that she is easier to use as a token to further her new partners business, which in turn furthers her own life style.
ii. A religious school / upbringing to reduce the chances of exposure to sexual experiences/knowledge, not to be confused with Reproduction Studies that may be taught in such schools.
iii. A slutty best girlfriend who's sexual actions and advancements are used to make the daughter weary of doing such things herself, because the mother (a person the daughter currently trusts) keeps telling the daughter the girlfriend's actions are wrong.
For the daughter to consider the father (who she's been told cheated on her mother) suitable as a potentially date-able person, she first has to come to terms with dumping her existing boyfriend and going against her mother's wishes, she has learn to trust the father then come to the decision that he may be worthy, and then there's the whole incest topic to over come for both of them let alone the subject of introducing her to the world of sexual interactions.

We like to try to associate words like believable and realistic with the story-lines of porn related interactive fiction/games but because they generally requiring sexual interactions within a very short time frame then by their very nature they can't really be that believable or realistic in a general sense can they?

I like your analysis. As your last point, "believable or realistic" hints at real world issues - and then is this game realistic when compared to the real world. A better way if looking at it is whether or not the game is internally consistent and whether or not it is a world where one can suspend one's disbelief and become immersed. (The art form of the broadway musical is not realistic (people do not spontaneously break into song, etc) but audiences buy into the art form, accept the story (whether it covers one day of story time or years or decades), and become immersed in the musical to the point the audience can feel different emotions).

Is DMD internally consistent, is it write in a way to immerse the audience, and is it succeeding in bringing the adience to the emotional states the design team is wanting.

 

[greyelf]

A better way if looking at it is...

Good point.

...of the broadway musical...

'Broadway' Musicals existed before Broadway did *smile* but I understand your meaning, and in some ways it is sad that people don't break into song (and dance) and that life isn't as simple as they portray. Or am I letting my personal likes of stage acting and musicals in particular cloud my judgement.

...it covers one day of story time or years or decades ... the audience can feel different emotions ...

The arts of stage-craft and stage-design are quite mature and full of tricks/magic which can be used achieve effects like these, although in general musicals want you to have quick emotional reactions and not to overly analyse the what or why of what is happening as that can lead to disconnection. Where as written mediums handle deeper though better, and generally deliberately induce it.

Is DMD internally consistent, is it write in a way to immerse the audience, and is it succeeding in bringing the audience to the emotional states the design team is wanting.

I find this difficult to answer for a number of reasons:
a. I'm biased about the subject matter.
b. I generally play only the new content added within a release once and have not really played the other paths to any great extent, so while I know them in a general sense I don't know them in real depth. This does mean I miss out on rewrites of prior content.
c. The time between each release cause disconnection and interferes with the flow / consistent of the story-line, which in turn forces us to rely on the memory of the actual prior events and the emotional states generated by them, which is unreliable at best. And while reading a book is a similar process generally the intervals between each interaction are a lot shorter, of at least they are in my experience.

I would have to re-play the game from start to really be able to state an opinion about the consistency but I do find myself immersed when I am playing it, as I am able to rationalise characters with the required behavioural traits.

 

[DSSAlex]

I find this discussion very interesting. I spent a few years writing porno stories during the Kindle porn boom. I kind of feel like having very elaborately written capital L literature level writing is actually a detriment.

If you have too much investment in the characters then the things they have to do to push your buttons quickly become horrifying.

I'm gonna use Lab Rats as an example. If the characters were written as anything but two or three traits you can use to set the scenarios their eventual fate as mind controlled fuck sluts would be horrifying. The loose cartoonyness of their characterization softens it and let's you know this is imaginary and a safe space.

DMD does the same thing. Daughter is way stupider than she reasonably could be. I think it's playing off three different things, making the story unreal enough to make you think about real world consequences less, it's also playing into the age play dynamic and it pushes the buttons of the F/D kink.

 

[Ungawa]

I agree with you.

Males are a different breed. All types of sex are fair game for a writer writing to a male's perspective. Most of the target audience would agree (at least in fantasy).

Mmmm... That has its own issues. Once you start adding different elements for spice such as race, class, and personality, it can really change the male from a dominant and over aggressive A-hole in something like 50 Shades to a submissive but resolute hero like you see in most games. It might be interesting to see a character that plays on race, but if you take it too far, you'll have a stereotype. Mark Twain had characters that were very believable and they didn't fall into that line because they learned just enough that they changed to something likeable in stories like Huck Finn.

My point is that once you start to play around with the biases and expectations of the audience in what they're seeing in a story, you can have just as many challenges on the male side as you can have in the female side.

 

[Jeff Steel]

I'm all for Daughter being the stronger protagonist in this story. MC can never be a great protagonist, as MC is drawn in such a way to be able to take multiple paths (D only - Elena and D - Georgina only - etc). MC IS the girl with no name - must wear many masks. But Daughter can be great! That's why I'm not a fan of "corruption petals" - should be another term that shows more of a growth in Daughter's agency.

 

[Jeff Steel]

I agree with you.
The porn ingredient dominates. But the best porn stories "push the envelope" via the literary ingredient as well. But really I think the best stories are written from the female's p.o.v.
Since the target audience is predominately male, this can lead to superficial storylines as you mention.
But F/D is such an extreme taboo because it also includes potential rape situations. Only when the female can be seen to be CHOOSING this path, at least as the lesser of evils compared to her prior life, can her character be believed by most players.
Males are a different breed. All types of sex are fair game for a writer writing to a male's perspective. Most of the target audience would agree (at least in fantasy).
In DMD D doesn't want a sexual relationship but rather one based on love/romance ;F has turned into a sexual aggressor to satisfy his lusts. Sex is now the main course : it can only be a good story if sex is a side-dish.

Agree. The enjoyment of a sexual relationship (IMO) is less about the deed and more about the vulnerability of a partner opening up to physical and vulnerable state and share in the sexual experience. The game for me is more exciting in the "opening up" of Daughter in her sexual self. I wish we had more of this "opening up" with Elena and Georgina. Watch this video on flirting and see them also discuss this "vulnerable giving" aspect.

 

[greyelf]

I do a number of different forms of social dancing (both couples and formation based) and find that flirting can help relax those trying to learn the current dance being taught in a class, or in a social dance (Ball) situation to help them realise that it's more important that they enjoy themselves than it is to worry about getting the dance 100% correct (which generally comes with time and practice).
The most important skill I have learnt about flirting is being able to tell who you can flirt with and who you can't. lol

 

[Cirro84]

The storyline doesn't really fit what's going on. D is being represented not as a consenting adult but as an emo loli.
I believe that the "Loli payoff" IS the game when layers and layers of bs are stripped away.
There are several business/legal reasons to do it this way.
Quite a few people--including you--have noted that the story makes more sense if D was several years younger. Ah, but the "love and romance" would not bear scrutiny if that were the case so nudge-nudge wink-wink all characters are 18+.
The older babes are a distraction and an alibi if anyone should ask the designers about the loli stuff.

What the daught is not is loli. Consult your sources. But you are right, the story got a bad bad start, hard to fix now. D not knowing anything is not too realistic. Though it depends on mom npc, maybe she's a bitch 'sheltering' her daught form 'evil' joy of living a fullfilled life. What mommy doesn't have daught shouldn't. I came to know some in rl, poor little offspring.

Let's see: Compared to bff it seems a little extreme that D isn't asking her more experienced 'slut friend' for any backgrounds. Girlies normally chat about any stupid things they got going in their spoiled little brains. Not shown here, with this game. This could help bring more 'realism' to D char, even if E is not the best teacher. But it would be good for a laugh or two. The game lacks the fun to be honest, I need to play 'sweet prince' for points. Even if I might 'hate' my ex bitch for what she had done to me I still needed to say 'hush-hush, maybe one day we all like each other again'. Or I am being an arse, blaming her mom and talking shit, which D does not deserve to be bothered with.

The decision to make D an innocent little angel did harm the gameplay, but it is up to devs to handle this now. I am very curious about the 'extra points' one can collect and spend, if those will be of any use. Transforming to her to cock-craving ass slut will be the other extreme. Then the game is completely messed up. I am genuinely curious how they will save it from going south. Especially because you shouldn't need another 6+ months to go from rubbing off to sucking to swallowing to intercourse to more fetishes...

 

[Gomly1980]

Therein lies my problem with this game and the reason I ended up in a pages long "debate" over it.

One person asked me why I found the daughter to be the best character and I told them I didn't, I don't like the daughter as a character at all.

I keep playing because I find some of the other characters interesting and want to see how it all ends but I find the daughters character and the fathers relationship with that character to be the weakest part. For starters he's been around and knows what he's doing while she's absolutely clueless. Some people find that a turn on, I find it creepy.

As someone above put, she's not a consenting adult. She's an immature child being coerced into something she knows nothing about.

That would be if I could believe that character which I don't and where the pages of debating came in with regards to knowledge about sex and her unbelievable lack thereof.

Personally, if given the option, i'd be going for Georgina. As it stands she's the most well rounded woman there and the only option for a lasting relationship. If the Mc was younger it would be Elena i'd go for purely because she'd be the best in bed.