VN Ren'Py Eternum [v0.8.5 Public] [Caribdis]

[cayseron]

First, this entire Penny cutdown nonsense started with her being accused of not having the “issues” that the other girls have, which makes her less interesting. She has the easy life of no problems while life is so hard for everyone else. I already explained why, except for basically 2 cases, she has more issues to deal with than the rest of the LI cast. You can scroll back for that.

As far as her being useful within the game, I’ll start by saying that’s a pretty shitty way to look at someone and tells me more about you than about her, but you do basically what I said. She contributes but you downplay and assume it could be done by anyone, but when any other girl does a thing, it’s impossible to replace.

Annie and Dalia are good game players, but after getting Orion into the game, are not consequential. Any of their arcs could be replaced. They do nothing essential and like Penny and the Vampires, could be cut and replaced by another girl doing something similar. Nova has a god weapon. Alex has “behind the scenes” blah blah blah. Alex hasn’t done anything special or provided any info that couldn’t be found out via other means. Like you mentioned, Nova is an excellent hacker that could get that info on her own. Nancy is a great strategist, and you already pointed out that Chang can do that. Luna has a magic power that she avoids using because it makes her sad, and like Penny could be replaced by any other empathetic character as far as her contribution via the werewolves. I’ll grant Nova providing a lot, but none of the others are essential, and could just be swapped about with light rewrites.

I wouldn’t want any character to be dropped as unnecessary, but to pretend that Penny is in any way superfluous is a you issue, not a Penny issue. She’s part of the team, has contributed multiple times, whether or not you choose to count it. She is only as replaceable as many of the LIs, in that weirdly specific department that I don’t understand using as a measuring stick I guess.

the problem is, i provided the proof of what other LI bring to the table, it is up to you to provide solid proof of what penny brings to the table. and i am not undermining her as character, i am saying that when you rank all the characters whether its based on their usefullness and what they bring on the table or likeability and uniqueness of their characters its insane to think penny should be on top. and just because that sound bad does not mean opinion of character itself is bad,
i am saying she is a strong 8 surrounded by 9's and 10's but you choose to treat my comment as if i think she is a 3. that is not my problem, that is you problem. being overprotective over fictional character. and that tells me more about you than it does about penny.
i dont say penny is shit character, i am saying if i had to make a party of 4 people (average number for party in games such as eternum unless we talking raids and such) penny would not be on that list unless reason for said party is to waste time and goof around. Penny is here for good times and perspective of "noob"/"newbie" character playing eternum because we cant have that perspective with orion. i never said she is horrible character, you are just blindsighted with your white knight agenda

And i have to correct you on one thing because you said Alex hasnt done anything special. well let me remind you that without Alex Orion would never get in the party > would have much harder time learning about founder, syndicate, gems of dooms > and would never meet founder. ok that last bit is debatable, its a game which would mean one can argue if not there they would just make founder reveal himself to orion somewhere else for plot reasons but that meta gaming fact does not take away from importance of alex's last name influence at the level you are portraying it.

Another thing i must address is that i never said she has no issues but i can see how someone can make that argument (i dont agree with it, i am just saying i am not surprised some people making that claim cause people hardly surprise me on internet).
Penny have issues and we can see them through the screen of her phone so to speak as the messages she gets can really damage ones mental state and that is not something to ignore. i never said she has no issues so you are using me to argue with people who are probably not even reading your comments.

EDIT: i also see now that you are also same person i replied with post above. the jest comment where i am being devils advocate, i would advice you to treat that comment separate from my other one (the one i posted next) because while i am open for genuine debate on this topic as i started discussing upon replying to your different comment, the devils advocate thing is just a joke and not my true feelings. it is unfortunate both comments landed on same person in same time but oh well, stay asured though everything i say from here on regarding penny will be my true feelings and opinions provided you decide to respond and have more to say on the topic

 

[Perniciousducks]

the problem is, i provided the proof of what other LI bring to the table, it is up to you to provide solid proof of what penny brings to the table. and i am not undermining her as character, i am saying that when you rank all the characters whether its based on their usefullness and what they bring on the table or likeability and uniqueness of their characters its insane to think penny should be on top. and just because that sound bad does not mean opinion of character itself is bad,
i am saying she is a strong 8 surrounded by 9's and 10's but you choose to treat my comment as if i think she is a 3. that is not my problem, that is you problem. being overprotective over fictional character. and that tells me more about you than it does about penny.
i dont say penny is shit character, i am saying if i had to make a party of 4 people (average number for party in games such as eternum unless we talking raids and such) penny would not be on that list unless reason for said party is to waste time and goof around. Penny is here for good times and perspective of "noob"/"newbie" character playing eternum because we cant have that perspective with orion. i never said she is horrible character, you are just blindsighted with your white knight agenda

And i have to correct you on one thing because you said Alex hasnt done anything special. well let me remind you that without Alex Orion would never get in the party > would have much harder time learning about founder, syndicate, gems of dooms > and would never meet founder. ok that last bit is debatable, its a game which would mean one can argue if not there they would just make founder reveal himself to orion somewhere else for plot reasons but that meta gaming fact does not take away from importance of alex's last name influence at the level you are portraying it.

Another thing i must address is that i never said she has no issues but i can see how someone can make that argument (i dont agree with it, i am just saying i am not surprised some people making that claim cause people hardly surprise me on internet).
Penny have issues and we can see them through the screen of her phone so to speak as the messages she gets can really damage ones mental state and that is not something to ignore. i never said she has no issues so you are using me to argue with people who are probably not even reading your comments.

EDIT: i also see now that you are also same person i replied with post above. the jest comment where i am being devils advocate, i would advice you to treat that comment separate from my other one (the one i posted next) because while i am open for genuine debate on this topic as i started discussing upon replying to your different comment, the devils advocate thing is just a joke and not my true feelings. it is unfortunate both comments landed on same person in same time but oh well, stay asured though everything i say from here on regarding penny will be my true feelings and opinions provided you decide to respond and have more to say on the topic

Ugh, I’m on my phone so formatting is annoying, live with it. I don’t really find most of your examples compelling.

“When it comes to importance and individuality, nobody can replace nova with her hacking skills and impecable aim.”

Nova I grant brings a unique skill set. So powerful it makes nearly all others replaceable.

nobody has as much ties to eternums "behind the scenes" as the daughter of william bardot.

Her connection to the Bardots has actually been more of an issue than advantage as it makes the group a target by the enemy. Her being a Bardot is not a positive and the one thing you claim above is because they got a gem, which everyone contributed to.

none of the LI's have managment skills and knowledge for strategizing like Nancy does (other than maybe chang and even then my statement holds because he is not LI),

So in your argument Chang replaces her, it doesn’t even take an LI. That’s really not a win for you. It’s more replaceable if it doesn’t even take an LI

“Luna and Daliah are very knowledgable of the game and useful assets in hunting gems of doom and can hold their own. i mean Daliah can easily compete with Orion in terms of physical skills and she does it without his cheats.”

this is entirely a joke to me. They haven’t gotten any gems on their own, and if they had, Thanatos would just take them. They’re decent game players, big deal? I don’t see how this isn’t easily done by Nova in every instance and at least she has a “shot” at hanging onto one. Hell, even in this example you make no differentiation between the two which in and of itself proves even you believe they’re easily swappable… and if both Luna and Penny can perform equally well on the werewolf/vampire front… it levels them all.

“I am not taking away from Penny's character, its just that she is least impactful for the whole story as things she brings on the table can easily be replaced with already included and developed LIs.”

You are taking away from her, because you are over inflating everyone else. I’ll grant Nova is on a different tier in usefulness, but while she’s a 10, Penny slots in equivalent to the rest, skill sets that are easily replaced and dwarfed by Nova and Orion.

On the personal issues, I didn’t say you started it, I was providing context to the discussion. You just shifted to a new avenue of pointless cherry picking. And are equally wrong about it in your own way.

 

[cayseron]

Ugh, I’m on my phone so formatting is annoying, live with it. I don’t really find most of your examples compelling.

“When it comes to importance and individuality, nobody can replace nova with her hacking skills and impecable aim.”

Nova I grant brings a unique skill set. So powerful it makes nearly all others replaceable.

nobody has as much ties to eternums "behind the scenes" as the daughter of william bardot.

Her connection to the Bardots has actually been more of an issue than advantage as it makes the group a target by the enemy. Her being a Bardot is not a positive and the one thing you claim above is because they got a gem, which everyone contributed to.

none of the LI's have managment skills and knowledge for strategizing like Nancy does (other than maybe chang and even then my statement holds because he is not LI),

So in your argument Chang replaces her, it doesn’t even take an LI. That’s really not a win for you. It’s more replaceable if it doesn’t even take an LI

“Luna and Daliah are very knowledgable of the game and useful assets in hunting gems of doom and can hold their own. i mean Daliah can easily compete with Orion in terms of physical skills and she does it without his cheats.”

this is entirely a joke to me. They haven’t gotten any gems on their own, and if they had, Thanatos would just take them. They’re decent game players, big deal? I don’t see how this isn’t easily done by Nova in every instance and at least she has a “shot” at hanging onto one. Hell, even in this example you make no differentiation between the two which in and of itself proves even you believe they’re easily swappable… and if both Luna and Penny can perform equally well on the werewolf/vampire front… it levels them all.

“I am not taking away from Penny's character, its just that she is least impactful for the whole story as things she brings on the table can easily be replaced with already included and developed LIs.”

You are taking away from her, because you are over inflating everyone else. I’ll grant Nova is on a different tier in usefulness, but while she’s a 10, Penny slots in equivalent to the rest, skill sets that are easily replaced and dwarfed by Nova and Orion.

On the personal issues, I didn’t say you started it, I was providing context to the discussion. You just shifted to a new avenue of pointless cherry picking. And are equally wrong about it in your own way.

i am not overly inflating others, i am pointing out what they are bringin to the table. your only counterargument that somewhat defends penny is that you can find a way to undervalue other LI's contribution while simultaneously not bringing a single evidence of pennys value even though i asked you two times to do so. that tells me you yourself cant think of anything other than personal bias towards her.
You simply cant compare luna and penny and say they can perform equally well. luna can do anything no matter where she is. just go and try to compare luna's summons with penny's useless frog. its embarasing to even go there. If luna went to investigate vampires she would easily be sucessfull one way or another. meanwhile penny going to werewolves, she would run away at first sight of them or make things worse. There just isnt any possible way for you to prove penny can compete with others regarding what they all bring to the table.

you make it sound like me bringing up chang was self-defeating argument. Reason i bring up chang is because he was the one who plotted the casino heist. he is not a player, he does not have a chip, he cant replace Nancy so this just proves how hard you reaching for the straws.

Lastly, i am not taking away anything from penny because there is hardly anything to be taken away. you are still to point out a single thing that she brings to the table that noone else can.

Whether Alex being bardot is positive or negative that is objectively something only Alex can bring to the table when it comes to story telling. Luna has the creepy dark humor that none other girls have, Daliah trains Orion how to fight and helps him to figure out how to use his powers, i did not even mention calypso once but even calypso brings more to the table than penny.
I am not saying penny is bad character, its just that you objectively cant put her in top tier with others. its all about personal taste so if she is your favorite thats cool, good for you, i am happy for ya. but objectively speaking from purely narrative thing, she does not bring much to the table other than feel good vibes and the depth of her character lies upon fucked up side of social media, that is not even her own trait, she is more of a self-insert of readers insecurities than top tier character.

at least we agree Nova towers over everyone else in terms of uniqueness and usefullness so i am glad we dont have to argue over that. I still think there is significant difference between the rest of the girls too and its not all "6-way tie"

me personally, given my preferences and my bias i would put Luna first, followed by alex and daliah, then nova and nancy with annie and pennie last in any order. them being last does not mean they are bad character it just means others are way better... and until you actually bring out specific points and valid stuff that penny brings to the table youll have hard time convincing me or anything at that matter otherwise because you are not doing penny justice with this approach.
if your way of proving penny is as good as other LI is by trying your hardest to lower other girls on her level you already prove my point.

 

[Perniciousducks]

i am not overly inflating others, i am pointing out what they are bringin to the table. your only counterargument that somewhat defends penny is that you can find a way to undervalue other LI's contribution while simultaneously not bringing a single evidence of pennys value even though i asked you two times to do so. that tells me you yourself cant think of anything other than personal bias towards her.
You simply cant compare luna and penny and say they can perform equally well. luna can do anything no matter where she is. just go and try to compare luna's summons with penny's useless frog. its embarasing to even go there. If luna went to investigate vampires she would easily be sucessfull one way or another. meanwhile penny going to werewolves, she would run away at first sight of them or make things worse. There just isnt any possible way for you to prove penny can compete with others regarding what they all bring to the table.

you make it sound like me bringing up chang was self-defeating argument. Reason i bring up chang is because he was the one who plotted the casino heist. he is not a player, he does not have a chip, he cant replace Nancy so this just proves how hard you reaching for the straws.

Lastly, i am not taking away anything from penny because there is hardly anything to be taken away. you are still to point out a single thing that she brings to the table that noone else can.

Whether Alex being bardot is positive or negative that is objectively something only Alex can bring to the table when it comes to story telling. Luna has the creepy dark humor that none other girls have, Daliah trains Orion how to fight and helps him to figure out how to use his powers, i did not even mention calypso once but even calypso brings more to the table than penny.
I am not saying penny is bad character, its just that you objectively cant put her in top tier with others. its all about personal taste so if she is your favorite thats cool, good for you, i am happy for ya. but objectively speaking from purely narrative thing, she does not bring much to the table other than feel good vibes and the depth of her character lies upon fucked up side of social media, that is not even her own trait, she is more of a self-insert of readers insecurities than top tier character.

at least we agree Nova towers over everyone else in terms of uniqueness and usefullness so i am glad we dont have to argue over that. I still think there is significant difference between the rest of the girls too and its not all "6-way tie"

me personally, given my preferences and my bias i would put Luna first, followed by alex and daliah, then nova and nancy with annie and pennie last in any order. them being last does not mean they are bad character it just means others are way better... and until you actually bring out specific points and valid stuff that penny brings to the table youll have hard time convincing me or anything at that matter otherwise because you are not doing penny justice with this approach.
if your way of proving penny is as good as other LI is by trying your hardest to lower other girls on her level you already prove my point.

Penny has charm. Far more than any other of the LI's, when she interacts with people they want to please her. Additionally, everyone instantly underestimates her and assume she needs their help and that she is stupid. This has a huge advantage when trying to manipulate information out of people or getting them to do things they wouldn't otherwise do in a way that is not obvious. Nancy and Annie have some of these traits, but not to the degree that Penny does or in the way she does. While all the girls are beautiful, with the exception of Nancy, they are either stand offish (Dalia, Alex) or shy (Nova, Luna, Annie), which inhibits their ability to manipulate people. Nancy is not, but she acts motherly, which makes her attempts to manipulate more obvious, or at least very different. When Penny is manipulating you, you don't realize it.

This is very obvious in the heist, but she uses it often and it's subtle. She's so good it works on players in our world.

 

[Zegion101]

So what's the update cycle on this game like?

6-8 months I think depending on update size, definitely not before 6 tho

 

[Zegion101]

Maybe it's me but liking the girls based on their usefulness and what they "bring to the table" sounds dumb. I like these characters because of their vibes and personality and based on that Penny ranks really high up

Her usefulness in game is definitely gonna go up way high later like Annie. She is apparently a better talent in magic than Luna after all and restoration spell will play a big role

 

[cayseron]

Penny has charm. Far more than any other of the LI's, when she interacts with people they want to please her. Additionally, everyone instantly underestimates her and assume she needs their help and that she is stupid. This has a huge advantage when trying to manipulate information out of people or getting them to do things they wouldn't otherwise do in a way that is not obvious. Nancy and Annie have some of these traits, but not to the degree that Penny does or in the way she does. While all the girls are beautiful, with the exception of Nancy, they are either stand offish (Dalia, Alex) or shy (Nova, Luna, Annie), which inhibits their ability to manipulate people. Nancy is not, but she acts motherly, which makes her attempts to manipulate more obvious, or at least very different. When Penny is manipulating you, you don't realize it.

This is very obvious in the heist, but she uses it often and it's subtle. She's so good it works on players in our world.

ok now we are talking, so by your logic her unique traits are her charisma/charm and "underdog" storyline.
the whole "she's so good it works on players in our world" shtick is very cringe but ill ignore it for sake of debate.
What by your standards was so special about Penny's involvement during the heist? because if i recall she just flirted a bit with a virgin player and then Luna did all the heavy lifting with her morbid knowledge in order to scare the guy shitless. What part of Penny's role in that heist says that she is invaluable member of the crew? because to me her whole role in that heist looked more like chang taking pitty and trying to involve everyone in his plan. i mean Ralph and his brother did more than penny during that heist if you ask me.

That is not to say i dont agree with you on what she brings to the table. I already pointed out that narratively speaking advantage penny have over other LIs is that she brings the "newbie" perspective of eternum as we cant have that with orion because he is too special. that is in my opinion the only unique thing she brings to the table but i accept your logic and i will add "charm" as something she has more than everyone else and the aspect of underdog and "manipulation".

Now why does any of this allegedly place her on the top tier with luna's powers to see future and morbid knowledge of death and lethality, or her overpowered summons like pyramidhead. Or Alex's confidence, bardot last name, wild shapes. Or Nova's hacking, Deone and impecable aim.

As i keep saying this whole time, penny is good character and she is up there, she is not trash, she is not 3/10, she is solid 8/10, just unfortunately you are forcing her to fight the unwinnable battle vs 9's and 10's

 

[sexypeanut]

Hey did anything ever happen with that lady who appears whenever Orion has a schizo moment? The ones with the spooky music that happened now and again? They haven't happened again in a while now that I about it. The woman who's always with her back to the camera and only asks two questions. Either "Will you help us?" or the "Heads or Tails?" thing. I don't think we ever found out more about her right?

Nope.

 

[PervyParadox]

As i keep saying this whole time, penny is good character and she is up there, she is not trash, she is not 3/10, she is solid 8/10, just unfortunately you are forcing her to fight the unwinnable battle vs 9's and 10's

I give your notation a 0/10.
All Eternum's LIs are 10/10.

Maybe it's me but liking the girls based on their usefulness and what they "bring to the table" sounds dumb. I like these characters because of their vibes and personality

Yes, that too.

 

[cayseron]

I give your notation a 0/10.
All Eternum's LIs are 10/10.

thats purely subjective thing and even the way you are undermining all the other LI's to prove your point of penny being as useful as them just proves how even you dont believe the lie youre telling

 

[wiseold6996]

i am not overly inflating others, i am pointing out what they are bringin to the table. your only counterargument that somewhat defends penny is that you can find a way to undervalue other LI's contribution while simultaneously not bringing a single evidence of pennys value even though i asked you two times to do so. that tells me you yourself cant think of anything other than personal bias towards her.
You simply cant compare luna and penny and say they can perform equally well. luna can do anything no matter where she is. just go and try to compare luna's summons with penny's useless frog. its embarasing to even go there. If luna went to investigate vampires she would easily be sucessfull one way or another. meanwhile penny going to werewolves, she would run away at first sight of them or make things worse. There just isnt any possible way for you to prove penny can compete with others regarding what they all bring to the table.

you make it sound like me bringing up chang was self-defeating argument. Reason i bring up chang is because he was the one who plotted the casino heist. he is not a player, he does not have a chip, he cant replace Nancy so this just proves how hard you reaching for the straws.

Lastly, i am not taking away anything from penny because there is hardly anything to be taken away. you are still to point out a single thing that she brings to the table that noone else can.

Whether Alex being bardot is positive or negative that is objectively something only Alex can bring to the table when it comes to story telling. Luna has the creepy dark humor that none other girls have, Daliah trains Orion how to fight and helps him to figure out how to use his powers, i did not even mention calypso once but even calypso brings more to the table than penny.
I am not saying penny is bad character, its just that you objectively cant put her in top tier with others. its all about personal taste so if she is your favorite thats cool, good for you, i am happy for ya. but objectively speaking from purely narrative thing, she does not bring much to the table other than feel good vibes and the depth of her character lies upon fucked up side of social media, that is not even her own trait, she is more of a self-insert of readers insecurities than top tier character.

at least we agree Nova towers over everyone else in terms of uniqueness and usefullness so i am glad we dont have to argue over that. I still think there is significant difference between the rest of the girls too and its not all "6-way tie"

me personally, given my preferences and my bias i would put Luna first, followed by alex and daliah, then nova and nancy with annie and pennie last in any order. them being last does not mean they are bad character it just means others are way better... and until you actually bring out specific points and valid stuff that penny brings to the table youll have hard time convincing me or anything at that matter otherwise because you are not doing penny justice with this approach.
if your way of proving penny is as good as other LI is by trying your hardest to lower other girls on her level you already prove my point.

Penny has a hotter body

 

[cayseron]

Maybe it's me but liking the girls based on their usefulness and what they "bring to the table" sounds dumb. I like these characters because of their vibes and personality and based on that Penny ranks really high up

Her usefulness in game is definitely gonna go up way high later like Annie. She is apparently a better talent in magic than Luna after all and restoration spell will play a big role

usefulness is one of few things that can be debated objectively. otherwise there is no point of debate because its all subjective so your or anyones argument for penny being best girl is just as valid AND invalid as any other take because its subjective and as much one opinion is true to that one person, other opinions that are completely different from that one person are just as true and validated.
that is why i steer conversation to characters usefulness and uniqueness because those are only two things worth debating while alienating feelings and preferences

 

[cayseron]

Penny has a hotter body

thats subjective argument, i am looking for something concrete, objective, unique that cant be subject to opinions and preference like "hotness"

 

[wiseold6996]

thats subjective argument, i am looking for something concrete, objective, unique that cant be subject to opinions and preference like "hotness"

No Penny objectively has the hotter body. There is a reason she became a well-known model without any connection. Even in the island dream she became a popular actress. She is the most popular girl in school and college. Her existence even made dalia who is plenty hot in her own right have inferiority complex.

 

[JigglyPal]

'Hotness' is kinda subjective, but Penny definitely has the most conventionally attractive body.

 

[cayseron]

No Penny objectively has the hotter body. There is a reason she became a well-known model without any connection. Even in the island dream she became a popular actress. She is the most popular girl in school and college. Her existence even made dalia who is plenty hot in her own right have inferiority complex.

penny being instagram model is solid argument i am not gonna lie. can you please elaborate more on daliah's inferiority complex? if that is actually said in game i forgot about it. as far i remember, daliah never felt like competing with Penny for popularity because they had different interests. Daliah was more focused on training and gaming instead of clout chasing but i could be wrong and maybe daliah only developed those interests once she realized she cant compete with penny. can you please share the scene where this is said?

 

[wiseold6996]

penny being instagram model is solid argument i am not gonna lie. can you please elaborate more on daliah's inferiority complex? if that is actually said in game i forgot about it. as far i remember, daliah never felt like competing with Penny for popularity because they had different interests. Daliah was more focused on training and gaming instead of clout chasing but i could be wrong and maybe daliah only developed those interests once she realized she cant compete with penny. can you please share the scene where this is said?

I kinda don't where exactly but she said that penny basically overshadowed her everywhere so she changed her interests and went into sports. Also the visual cues she provided. Dalia was kinda into mc from the start and she always got annoyed if penny pranced around the house half-naked. She was pretty afraid he would get seduced by penny unintentionally

 

[cayseron]

I kinda don't where exactly but she said that penny basically overshadowed her everywhere so she changed her interests and went into sports

i wanna believe you cause that vaguely ring a bell so valid point

 

[Zegion101]

usefulness is one of few things that can be debated objectively. otherwise there is no point of debate because its all subjective so your or anyones argument for penny being best girl is just as valid AND invalid as any other take because its subjective and as much one opinion is true to that one person, other opinions that are completely different from that one person are just as true and validated.
that is why i steer conversation to characters usefulness and uniqueness because those are only two things worth debating while alienating feelings and preferences

But the usefulness also doesn't necessarily make one better character tho? It would still be subjective criteria for liking a girl since not everyone will view usefulness as a trait for liking a character.

Like I'm pretty sure nobody is loving Alex based on how much she was useful as a Bardot lol. Nova has done the most out of everyone with her skillset from the beginning but she'll still be in the middle in my ranking

 

[Perniciousducks]

Maybe it's me but liking the girls based on their usefulness and what they "bring to the table" sounds dumb. I like these characters because of their vibes and personality and based on that Penny ranks really high up

Her usefulness in game is definitely gonna go up way high later like Annie. She is apparently a better talent in magic than Luna after all and restoration spell will play a big role

yeah, I’ve said that too. It says a lot more about them than it does about Penny