HTML Abandoned Female Agent [v1.20.1p] [Crushstation]

[Majus]

What's your point then? You want proof and when we point it out you say "nah too much work!".

Also, someone else pointed out Patreon policy but you just keep making some twisted interpretation of it so you just have some justification to the most obvious Bad praxis i ever seen in a long time.

I will make my last attempt to make you see that you don't need to BUY to be scammed:

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Yes, I want you to show me proof, since you say you know that it exists. I'm asking for a second or third time now... I don't care for this to be called a scam, I don't have any interest in supporting that claim... So why would I waste my time to look for something, on discord that is six years old, that I believe to most likely not exist? My whole point is that this proof is non-existent.
Patreon policy defines how Patreon operates on it's side. It does not define how a project is structured overall. If that was the case, then all projects using Patreon would be identical, wich is obviously not the case. Patreon's ToS have very little importance here.
I told you that you don't have to buy to be scammed. We agreed on that two or three times already: 'And yes, as I've said before, paying is not a requirement for scam to happen: "A scam could be identity theft and so on".' And if you're not being scammed by buying something here, then how come are you scammed..?

IDK man, I don't think there is any need to discuss this any further. I think I learned all that there is to learn from this. We're just walking in circles now.

 

[asdfasdf12341234ACSACA]

I understand defacto and and dejure. Same with scams, I believe.

My point is that people could be self-scamming. Self-deception, wishful thinking, confirmation bias, delusion (in a milder sense), cognitive dissonance reduction, self-sabotage ... all could be at play here too.

I got my answer either way, so I'm good. Thanks.

Eidt: I'll look into one of your mentioned scams a few pages ago a bit later and edit this post.
Edit2: So I looked into Theranos scam.
Theranos were claiming to have developed a product that works, but the results they were showing were not produced on their own equipment:
"A former senior employee stated that only a small fraction of the tests were conducted on the Edison machines and that the majority of the tests were handled on competitors’ equipment despite Theranos’s claims to the contrary."
They also found papers proving that they did this with the intent to defraud/deceive. So this is just a typical cookie cutter case of a "scam".

How this differs from Female Agent is that no one (in this thread) was able to come up with proof that this project is stalled specifically with the intention to deceive/defraud people. I'd also argue that here were no explicit promises made to deliver a product/service in the first place. So intent and fraud components are missing or unproven (even the "product", arguably, isn't defined), therefore we can't conlcude that a "scam" was commited here, since it requires both of those to be true/proven.

Theranos "wasn't a scam" until it was proved to be one in court (because, guess what, they weren't publicly sharing documents saying their results are faked). So if your argument is that for this (or any other similar situation) it's not a scam until it's proven to be one in court, then yes, you are completely right.

But then, if you accept that definition, was Theranos (or any other similar proved-to-be scam) NOT a scam during the time that it operated and people weren't aware of it? If tomorrow, a discord message gets leaked from exactly two months ago where Crush says "yeah I haven't been working on the project for the past year, all the patreons are fools" - does this project become a scam tomorrow? Does it become a scam from the date of that message? Or would it be a scam from 1+ year ago?

Like, I get your point, "innocent before proven guilty" is extremely important to respect to have a fair system, but basing your entire life and interpretation of reality entirely on what a court says might be flawed. I hope you never have to work a single minute of (typically unpaid) overtime or arrive exactly three minutes late at work, otherwise, you'd be in a breach of contract.

 

[Prawnstar69]

 

[yewfella]

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We're on week 6

Hang on, what Malaysia thing? I thought he was supposed to be writing a story set in Thailand.

 

[ffive]

Hang on, what Malaysia thing? I thought he was supposed to be writing a story set in Thailand.

There's early optional mission MC can undertake in Malaysia on route to her actual destination.

 

[Majus]

Theranos "wasn't a scam" until it was proved to be one in court (because, guess what, they weren't publicly sharing documents saying their results are faked). So if your argument is that for this (or any other similar situation) it's not a scam until it's proven to be one in court, then yes, you are completely right.

But then, if you accept that definition, was Theranos (or any other similar proved-to-be scam) NOT a scam during the time that it operated and people weren't aware of it? If tomorrow, a discord message gets leaked from exactly two months ago where Crush says "yeah I haven't been working on the project for the past year, all the patreons are fools" - does this project become a scam tomorrow? Does it become a scam from the date of that message? Or would it be a scam from 1+ year ago?

Like, I get your point, "innocent before proven guilty" is extremely important to respect to have a fair system, but basing your entire life and interpretation of reality entirely on what a court says might be flawed. I hope you never have to work a single minute of (typically unpaid) overtime or arrive exactly three minutes late at work, otherwise, you'd be in a breach of contract.

My take is that any project is a scam from the moment there is attempt to defraud people, it's just that it's unfair to call it out as such without any proof. So if this project is a scam, it's probably been that for a good while now.

But my argument wasn't about if this is or isn't a scam, but if it even could be a scam in the first place, going by how this project is set up. I sometimes play some "free to play" games with microtransactions and their model seem to be identical to this project. Base game is free, but you can purchase optional extras and these benefit the developer. If these games are "charity cases" or "businesses" doesn't really change the model, I think? Anyway...

In other projects, if I wisit their "support" page, I see that me paying money promises "access to monthly updates", then I know that I'm entitled to something and that developer is obligated to deliver that. But here I can't see any such promises being made. So my personal approach is very different depending if something is explicitly promised or not. But most people apparently don't see things or think the way I do, so we have problems.

And I don't see any value in arguing about it anymore. I learned that the whole problem stems form the dev being wishy-washy and going with the flow. He's clearly not interested in this project. So the project is a mess, without any structure, roadmap, goals, etc. Community seems to approach such projects, sitting in this grey-area, with freedom to import their own expectations and understanding of what's what. I guess that is the important bit for me to learn going forward.

Oh, and I haven't had an employer that wouldn't do something illegal with concern to my rights, etc. I don't really care if I breach that contract, for there been situations where I did that intentionally.

 

[Prawnstar69]

My take is that any project is a scam from the moment there is attempt to defraud people, it's just that it's unfair to call it out as such without any proof. So if this project is a scam, it's probably been that for a good while now.

But my argument wasn't about if this is or isn't a scam, but if it even could be a scam in the first place, going by how this project is set up. I sometimes play some "free to play" games with microtransactions and their model seem to be identical to this project. Base game is free, but you can purchase optional extras and these benefit the developer. If these games are "charity cases" or "businesses" doesn't really change the model, I think? Anyway...

In other projects, if I wisit their "support" page, I see that me paying money promises "access to monthly updates", then I know that I'm entitled to something and that developer is obligated to deliver that. But here I can't see any such promises being made. So my personal approach is very different depending if something is explicitly promised or not. But most people apparently don't see things or think the way I do, so we have problems.

And I don't see any value in arguing about it anymore. I learned that the whole problem stems form the dev being wishy-washy and going with the flow. He's clearly not interested in this project. So the project is a mess, without any structure, roadmap, goals, etc. Community seems to approach such projects, sitting in this grey-area, with freedom to import their own expectations and understanding of what's what. I guess that is the important bit for me to learn going forward.

Oh, and I haven't had an employer that wouldn't do something illegal with concern to my rights, etc. I don't really care if I breach that contract, for there been situations where I did that intentionally.

For fear of feeding the troll, I'll take this argument in good faith one last time. The proof you suggest is not there? Everyone is telling you it is in the actions, not the words, of the dev. You are arguing the unknowable, which is the motivation and mindset of a rando on the internet; we are stating what is public domain (rate of work, and number of actual public releases).

As for your premise it is others placing misaligned expectations on the dev, perhaps you ought to fact check yourself. There are clear deliverables (e.g. back button, early access, beta tests etc) that are promised to his Patreons. Only question that remains is if more than 2 years of delivering zilch constitutes scammy behavior that can be reported to the platform:

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FA has not be considered anything close to a finished product since it started in 2017, and it was only the last couple of versions where the agent even started on the main promise of bar girl in Bangkok. Once again, all expectations set by Crush during conception and re-conception of this project (this is the second reboot, at least).

Unfortunately, while reading through the policy, I would place the bulk of the blame on Patreon as a platform because their mission is to "put creators first" but not holding said creators to any form of meaningful timelines, such as keeping payments in escrow to be refunded if abandoned. So in closing, Patreon is NOT a charity because it would be tax exempt in my country if it were (spoiler: it's not).

People expect product, so don't hide behind vagaries and poor planning as a reason because a product is mentioned on member page. My opinion: The Operator level, who join to get "Access to beta test versions of the game" can actually report him because the game is neither feature nor content complete and therefore can only be generously considered in alpha. Good luck with that!

 

[Majus]

For fear of feeding the troll, I'll take this argument in good faith one last time. The proof you suggest is not there? Everyone is telling you it is in the actions, not the words, of the dev. You are arguing the unknowable, which is the motivation and mindset of a rando on the internet; we are stating what is public domain (rate of work, and number of actual public releases).

As for your premise it is others placing misaligned expectations on the dev, perhaps you ought to fact check yourself. There are clear deliverables (e.g. back button, early access, beta tests etc) that are promised to his Patreons. Only question that remains is if more than 2 years of delivering zilch constitutes scammy behavior that can be reported to the platform:

You must be registered to see the links

FA has not be considered anything close to a finished product since it started in 2017, and it was only the last couple of versions where the agent even started on the main promise of bar girl in Bangkok. Once again, all expectations set by Crush during conception and re-conception of this project (this is the second reboot, at least).

Unfortunately, while reading through the policy, I would place the bulk of the blame on Patreon as a platform because their mission is to "put creators first" but not holding said creators to any form of meaningful timelines, such as keeping payments in escrow to be refunded if abandoned. So in closing, Patreon is NOT a charity because it would be tax exempt in my country if it were (spoiler: it's not).

People expect product, so don't hide behind vagaries and poor planning as a reason because a product is mentioned on member page. My opinion: The Operator level, who join to get "Access to beta test versions of the game" can actually report him because the game is neither feature nor content complete and therefore can only be generously considered in alpha. Good luck with that!

Proof is there, in how developer handles (defines) the project and in how community approaches it.

Perhaps you ought to read the thread more carefully. I outlined these "deliverables" (as back button) in my previous posts. What I was reffering to now, was the enigmatic entitlement to ... whatever you think people are entitled to, besides the content sold on Patreon.

The claim for scammy behaviour remains to be found. Even the mechanism of said scam being carried out to be well defined and argued for. Currently, there is no proof of such event taking place, so any claim of it is bogus. ('Trust me bro' - does not work as proof).

Your issue here is that you're framing Patreon as something akin to Netflix - a content provider, which Patreon is not. Patreon doesn't provide content, nor it outsources it from creators, which is very important to keep in mind. Patreon is closer to something like eBay. It's in part a monetisation/sales platform, for afromentioned "deliverables". Now, I won't continue the discussion about the other part, Patreon also being a platform to "support creators", since that moves too close to the discussion about support/donation and the dreaded concept of charity.

I understand that people here expect a product. My argument is that some of these expectations, for this suggested and undefined product, are unfound and clumsily imported. And I don't care about where you personally draw the line on beta vs alpha or why you have an issue with the dev rebooting their project and so on - I feel that is simply irrelevant here.

Going forward, I'm not looking to continue this discussion. Maybe for some time, at least. Namaste.

 

[YellowShoes]

oh damn. this finally got hit with the abandoned tag? love to see it

 

[Senor Smut]

Regardless of whether you think Crush's behavior is unethical (and I certainly understand why someone would believe that very strongly), claims that this in some way meets the legal definition of fraud are specious and absurd. All that Crush has ever claimed on Patreon is that donations will help him work on the game. Not produce the game, much less produce the game to a specific schedule. And Crush has been working on the game, and the receipts are up on his Discord. You might say that this work has been floundering and ineffectual (I'd agree) or even made with the intent to string his Patrons along as much as he can while doing very little actual work (I disagree, but I get why you'd say that) and that he ought to bag the whole thing and do something else with his life (no argument there). What you can't say with any validity whatsoever is that all this somehow legally actionable, because ain't no way in hell that's close to true.

 

[Prawnstar69]

I would place the bulk of the blame on Patreon as a platform because their mission is to "put creators first" but not holding said creators to any form of meaningful timelines, such as keeping payments in escrow to be refunded if abandoned. So in closing, Patreon is NOT a charity because it would be tax exempt in my country if it were (spoiler: it's not).

Another strawman argument - nobody is going to sue this rando on the internet, because it is clear that nothing is legally enforceable. However, it is perfectly reasonable for people to expect him to produce something, if not to be done with at least the main story which started in 2017, then at least for the nothing playable since 2023. Why? Because that's what he said he's creating.

Why not ask Crush to run a poll; how many Patreons would support him indefinitely if he continues to produce nothing but Discord "evidence"? Fundamentally it's a platform problem, because the mismatch is Patreons want a creation (or is that something you'd dispute too?) and some creators just aren't creating what they promised (a game). For alignment, anyone who stays is on Team Frazzlitis and that's good on them. Or he could pause billing until he gets out of whatever rut, I'm confident that would silence the critics.

End day, team action has presented lack of progress and consistent patterns, so what if we disagree on whether it's dishonest or deceptive (definition of scam)? How about this - what would convince you this is dishonest or deceptive? Another 2 years? 20 years? Heck, at the rate AI is progressing, he could hook up some Zapier updates and have full on videos of himself working 24/7. If there's no answer, then congrats, you're in a cult.

 

[Spawk]

Proof is there, in how developer handles (defines) the project

No update for over a year

Proof is there, in how community approaches it.

Only a few cult members say everything is okay, in case you haven't noticed.

 

[Derrida]

I've had a couple of lengthy talks with Crush, and I've altered my stance on him. I don't think he's doing this as a deliberate scam. I think it really is working on the game as hard as he can, though not as much as he claims. I also think he's utterly inefficient, burned out beyond belief, and mentally incapable of ever finishing this game. He may not be mentally capable of ever producing another serious update, or even finished the whole of the lifepath system he set out to make almost two years ago. But he's a stubborn guy, and he doesn't believe he's mentally incapable of it. He truly believes he's going to get it done. He's passionate about it, but he can't finish it and so can't deliver what he's promised. Supporting Crush is less supporting a scammer than supporting a guy on the edge of a nervous breakdown who needs to step away from this for his own good -- but who's going to ride this particular airplane straight into the ground and burst into flames along with the project.

Being able to change your view when new info comes in is an admirable quality. My starting point was always that he was conning himself as much as anyone else. Most people have a conscience that they have to wrangle, and don't and would never think of themselves as being actively malicious. All those excuses and rationalisations which fill the activity reports might be read as a conscience working overtime.

But the thing is, I was starting to come around to your original view, that he was more of a deliberate scammer. I will reverse course now as I find myself trusting your appraisal.

I'm curious how you ended up having long conversations with him? As someone who briefly spent time on the discord and witnessed your interactions with Crush (and with Victoria, with whom you had a little spat while I was there!) I thought it more likely you'd be banned than get to speak to the man himself.

 

[asdfasdf12341234ACSACA]

Maybe he does talk to some inner circle. But my impressions from when I was lurking on the discord were that even for the not-quite-inner-circle (so, the average passionate supporter) his interactions boiled down to basically waiting a week to say something like "Great discussion here guys and gals, I'm taking notes"

 

[Troqu]

Being able to change your view when new info comes in is an admirable quality. My starting point was always that he was conning himself as much as anyone else. Most people have a conscience that they have to wrangle, and don't and would never think of themselves as being actively malicious. All those excuses and rationalisations which fill the activity reports might be read as a conscience working overtime.

But the thing is, I was starting to come around to your original view, that he was more of a deliberate scammer. I will reverse course now as I find myself trusting your appraisal.

I'm curious how you ended up having long conversations with him? As someone who briefly spent time on the discord and witnessed your interactions with Crush (and with Victoria, with whom you had a little spat while I was there!) I thought it more likely you'd be banned than get to speak to the man himself.

The thing is you should never talk in good faith to a scammer. They'd be terrible at scamming people if they didn't have a decent ability to make themselves sound reasonable. Smut fell into that trap. I also don't believe he STARTED this with a scam in mind, but it's clear based on his actions that he's moved to that model while doing just enough to plausibly deny foul play should anyone demand receipts.

 

[Senor Smut]

Being able to change your view when new info comes in is an admirable quality. My starting point was always that he was conning himself as much as anyone else. Most people have a conscience that they have to wrangle, and don't and would never think of themselves as being actively malicious. All those excuses and rationalisations which fill the activity reports might be read as a conscience working overtime.

But the thing is, I was starting to come around to your original view, that he was more of a deliberate scammer. I will reverse course now as I find myself trusting your appraisal.

I'm curious how you ended up having long conversations with him? As someone who briefly spent time on the discord and witnessed your interactions with Crush (and with Victoria, with whom you had a little spat while I was there!) I thought it more likely you'd be banned than get to speak to the man himself.

He DM'd me very angrily, demanding to know what my problem with him was. Apparently I was the critical voice that he took most seriously, and most personally -- he had twice come very close to quitting because of my comments. We had a long back-and-forth where I was perfectly frank about my views. He was initially offended, and then we both got past the vitriol and started to talk seriously. From the tenor of my comments he had assumed that I hated the game and wanted it to fail, but I assured him that I genuinely wanted to see the game come to fruition, I just didn't believe it ever would (I still don't). During the conversation (and a couple since) he convinced me of his sincerity and of his anguish with state of the game.

I also became convinced that he is incapable of (not unwilling to) finishing the game, and possibly incapable of ever producing the full lifepath. If I were a betting man, I'd bet that he never produces another update that advances the plot; I would also be willing to bet that he had a full breakdown and ends the project within a year, because, damn, that dude is right on the edge of collapse.

As I've said before, I don't think supporting him with money is doing him a favor. He needs to step away from this project for his own health, but he's very stubborn and pathologically focused. He's headed for a life-ruining collapse, and the only way that it can be averted at this point is if enough people pull their support that he is forced to go get a different job. Unfortunately, his avid supporters are avid indeed.

 

[Majus]

No update for over a year

And? Report it to Patreon ... or start a petition ... or call Slim Shady ... or pray to Jesus ... or realise that you did not buy any updates here.
I don't really care what you're going to do here, honestly. I didin't buy any updates (since that is impossible here), so I'm not fussed about it.

Only a few cult members say everything is okay, in case you haven't noticed.

I never said that things are ok and I don't care about emotional state of your cult members. I'm saying that the "developer" is a failure as one and that the community (or its understanding of this project) here is immature and/or naive, for lack of a better epithets.
I decided to just "deal with it" and I suggest/hope you do the same. Namaste.

 

[IjjKpoe]

Regardless of whether you think Crush's behavior is unethical (and I certainly understand why someone would believe that very strongly), claims that this in some way meets the legal definition of fraud are specious and absurd. All that Crush has ever claimed on Patreon is that donations will help him work on the game. Not produce the game, much less produce the game to a specific schedule. And Crush has been working on the game, and the receipts are up on his Discord. You might say that this work has been floundering and ineffectual (I'd agree) or even made with the intent to string his Patrons along as much as he can while doing very little actual work (I disagree, but I get why you'd say that) and that he ought to bag the whole thing and do something else with his life (no argument there). What you can't say with any validity whatsoever is that all this somehow legally actionable, because ain't no way in hell that's close to true.

"All that Crush has ever claimed on Patreon is that donations will help him work on the game. Not produce the game, much less produce the game to a specific schedule."

i'm sorry but this is just some weird way to excuse something using semanthics. If you produce you work, if he works he produces therefore your phrase is absurd. He hasn't done any update in over 20 months, that isn't working nor producing. He has had the game on a perpetual stand-by for over 6 years, 6 years of barely working nor producing.

We can discuss the legallity of his actions, but something that can't be discussed it's the morality of those actions. How can he be paid *HANDSOMELY* every month to WORK and release a game and still be on the exact same development point as 4-5 years a go?.

Not promising a definitive deadline and just giving some vague "soon update coming" it's just a way to avoid responsability knowing there won't be any pushover from his patreons. Not promising any specific schedule dosn't make it less scamm-y.

If he is burnt out he should not cash off patreons expecting ANY WORK, wait untill he thinks he's Ok and resume payment when ANY work is shown.

 

[asdfasdf12341234ACSACA]

He DM'd me very angrily, demanding to know what my problem with him was. Apparently I was the critical voice that he took most seriously, and most personally -- he had twice come very close to quitting because of my comments. We had a long back-and-forth where I was perfectly frank about my views. He was initially offended, and then we both got past the vitriol and started to talk seriously. From the tenor of my comments he had assumed that I hated the game and wanted it to fail, but I assured him that I genuinely wanted to see the game come to fruition, I just didn't believe it ever would (I still don't). During the conversation (and a couple since) he convinced me of his sincerity and of his anguish with state of the game.

I also became convinced that he is incapable of (not unwilling to) finishing the game, and possibly incapable of ever producing the full lifepath. If I were a betting man, I'd bet that he never produces another update that advances the plot; I would also be willing to bet that he had a full breakdown and ends the project within a year, because, damn, that dude is right on the edge of collapse.

As I've said before, I don't think supporting him with money is doing him a favor. He needs to step away from this project for his own health, but he's very stubborn and pathologically focused. He's headed for a life-ruining collapse, and the only way that it can be averted at this point is if enough people pull their support that he is forced to go get a different job. Unfortunately, his avid supporters are avid indeed.

I wonder why he hasn't mentioned that in any of the transparency reports and only ever brings out the positive "On discord, XX brought up that the heroine was not hot enough".

Just to be clear: I'm not calling you a liar, I believe you. It's just that, well, he made an awful choice when he called them transparency reports.

Let's not mention the fact that his "todo list" that shares on the transparency report is censored.

 

[orellion]

One trap Crush has fallen into is thinking what he releases is going to be a final, etched in stone product that everyone will judge him on. Even if it doesn't measure up on his "hotness" scale initially, he can always tweak it in future updates. The important thing now as we close in on 2 years is something juicy story wise gets released.