For people who are patrons...

[batman666]

I like to give 10 - 20 bucks once to a game that has really done tremendous progress and then just switch it up every month. May sound mean but I think that 20 bucks for a game I thorougly enjoyed is a good deal for both sides. I know there must be people who give 100 bucks a month to something like STS despite getting anything in return but that's not me.

 

[polywog]

So... I guess my perspective is a little different.

The notion that you're buying something is a little skewed because you're really not. You're helping someone financially so that they can create a product. If you see it as buying a product, then maybe you shouldn't look toward incomplete games in the first place, because in terms of Patreon the creator should be in focus, not the product.
For instance, I had a rough couple of months where I struggled really hard to get anything done due to health reasons, I still worked because that's just what I do, but things took way longer than they usually do. During those months you get a little scared that people will stop supporting you just because they're not getting their product, this is a really shitty feeling to get as a creator, it's also a big stress factor for a lot of people, I try to not let it get to me, but sometimes it just does.
I'm not saying you're wrong and that this is always how it is, but it would be nice if people were a little more understanding sometimes.

Sorry for the semi OT post.

You are spot on. Being a patron of the arts is about supporting starving artists, not buying a product. Some of it is political, groups fund a creator who is putting out a particular message through their work. For example BLM gets billions in funding which they use to support black causes, including black artists, and content that they agree with. Religious organizations support creators that convey their message. Mind you, we aren't just talking about games, it includes musical artists, people who create videos on all sorts of topics, all kinds of things have patrons.

Art, in all it's forms benefits society. The goal is to get them enough money to support themselves so the can eat, and provide for their family, so they can quit their day job, and devote more time to what they do best.

Those who are trying to make money, don't get patrons. Those who focus on the work get rewarded for their contribution to society.

 

[polywog]

There are more factors than that. How much disposable income does a patron have?
43.1 million people in the US make below the poverty level. Many if not most have families to support.
That's just here in the US. What do you expect the average person in Nigeria can afford to pay? Average income $480 annual.

Nigerian bankers make a lot of money. I keep getting these emails, where they are looking to move their money and invest it in US markets.

 

[DawnCry]

Personally I'm quite traditional. I like to pay for full games so patreon isn't truly for me.

While I'm not the main topic of the thread I would like to share my input:

-First of all the main problem that I usually have with creators is that they don't share their "vision" of the game, what do you want to accomplish, what do you want to add... this generates many problems later on.

For example take the NTR fetish, there have been a few games that have added it midway and then it generates quite a conflict. However if you from the start said "hey, this is going to be added" then people would know what they are supporting.

I truly think that every creator should try to explain the concept of the game and what themes will it touch.

-Second we have the problem of who is making the game, what I mean with this is that sometimes the creators give too much power to their patrons and the game ends up shifting from the creator's concept. It shouldn't be a bad thing in itself but the problem is that the creator doesn't feel the same, at first he wanted to do "x" but he ended up doing "y".

-Third we have the problem of trust. Don't take me wrong, I believe that most creators deserve to be trusted, but trust is something that has to be earned because of the moneygrabber ones that exploit patreon and give nothing.

-Fourth we have the problem of time and money, most developers don't know how to be efficient at neither, very few follow the division in projects and each projects divided on tasks, even less can they do a good estimation of the money they will need to pay for x or y thing.

This kind of affects the topic of trust too, because failing to do a proper job at these concepts will have a bad effect on the creator's success or failure.

-Fifth we have the comparisons, some creator's seem to work harder while others seem more lax, but patrons evaluate that from an outsider's point of view, perhaps the game that delivered less content was worked much more than the other that gave more, but because of many factors it is like that.

For example a linear project against a multiple-choice project. A linear one because it doesn't need to take into account anything can progress faster than the multiple-choice ones.

So just to give a tiny summary, the main problems that patreon creators have are:

-Concept explanation
-Concept derivation during development
-Trust
-Time and money management
-Outsider's comparisons.

Not many creator's care about those problems, so I don't feel comfortable supporting them. I just buy games that are ready to be sold because of that, for example bought quest failed in nutaku when it was out and I buy h games on steam too.

Having said that, if we fall under the situation that I find a creator that would cover all those, my support wouldn't be constant, usually patreon games have a really long development period, supporting from beginning to end I find that too much. My limit would be around 50-60$ per game.

 

[deluges]

I disagree with you. In both instances, there's an expectation. You say you generally know what you're getting and albeit this is a case by case basis,but when it comes to games that haven't been around for a long while, you're still buying based on an expectation. Whether it be through a demo, videos online, hype or a review, they all still create an expectation that might have twists and turns that you might not like whether it's through controls, interface or the plot.

As a sub, there is a general idea of what is going on but all the twists and turns will be unfolding in front of you as long as the dev is open about it and releases updated versions periodically. Depending on the dev and how much you pay, you end up being part of a team who gets to voice their opinion in the development and so those expectations are seen based on everyone's input and the dev's final decision. There is certainly a lot more control and transparency with one than the other.

tl;dr The expectation is the same between developed and unfinished games but the difference is that you have an open/transparent connection to the dev in how you and the rest of the community wish to *influence the dev.

*influence = The word control that I used earlier would be wrong since ultimately it's the dev's game and it's a team effort in supporting the dev. To have one person think they control the dev because they paid like everyone else would be wrong. As Fasder said, you're supporting the dev in their vision, not the product. The whole "I'm paying so treat me like a king" is problematic when it comes to free lance or any service that deals with the public.

I did say generally. No one's forcing anyone to preorder anything, but I'm saying that anyone can watch a review or Let's Play of a game that's already been created and reasonably know what to expect from a completed product. I have no clue why you'd try to argue that point.

Polls are a great example of how a game can be influenced in ways that you may not have wanted. What good is transparency when what you're getting wasn't what you wanted? I'm generally against Patreon polls because... I hate democracy, I guess. I'd rather the dev do what they set out to do rather than feel the need for fan-service when you're going to be letting down a subset of people with any decision you're going to make anyway.

Another way that game's can be changed are through complaining. You can have a game that starts out as one thing but ends up becoming completely watered down and changed to suit a broader audience. That's a dev's prerogative, but as someone who's sunk money into this based on the expectation of what it had been, it seems shitty. Now this is different than someone who played FIFA last year, then bought the new FIFA after hearing or reading nothing about it and then when they go to play it now it's about cricket. If you were to make a real argument you could say "Hey, they buff and nerf games all the time", which is true. But tweaks to mechanics which are meant to balance things, specifically in multi-player games are not the same as changing a game's plot mid-story.

 

[deluges]

Personally I'm quite traditional. I like to pay for full games so patreon isn't truly for me.

While I'm not the main topic of the thread I would like to share my input:

-First of all the main problem that I usually have with creators is that they don't share their "vision" of the game, what do you want to accomplish, what do you want to add... this generates many problems later on.

For example take the NTR fetish, there have been a few games that have added it midway and then it generates quite a conflict. However if you from the start said "hey, this is going to be added" then people would know what they are supporting.

I truly think that every creator should try to explain the concept of the game and what themes will it touch.

-Second we have the problem of who is making the game, what I mean with this is that sometimes the creators give too much power to their patrons and the game ends up shifting from the creator's concept. It shouldn't be a bad thing in itself but the problem is that the creator doesn't feel the same, at first he wanted to do "x" but he ended up doing "y".

-Third we have the problem of trust. Don't take me wrong, I believe that most creators deserve to be trusted, but trust is something that has to be earned because of the moneygrabber ones that exploit patreon and give nothing.

-Fourth we have the problem of time and money, most developers don't know how to be efficient at neither, very few follow the division in projects and each projects divided on tasks, even less can they do a good estimation of the money they will need to pay for x or y thing.

This kind of affects the topic of trust too, because failing to do a proper job at these concepts will have a bad effect on the creator's success or failure.

-Fifth we have the comparisons, some creator's seem to work harder while others seem more lax, but patrons evaluate that from an outsider's point of view, perhaps the game that delivered less content was worked much more than the other that gave more, but because of many factors it is like that.

For example a linear project against a multiple-choice project. A linear one because it doesn't need to take into account anything can progress faster than the multiple-choice ones.

So just to give a tiny summary, the main problems that patreon creators have are:

-Concept explanation
-Concept derivation during development
-Trust
-Time and money management
-Outsider's comparisons.

Not many creator's care about those problems, so I don't feel comfortable supporting them. I just buy games that are ready to be sold because of that, for example bought quest failed in nutaku when it was out and I buy h games on steam too.

Having said that, if we fall under the situation that I find a creator that would cover all those, my support wouldn't be constant, usually patreon games have a really long development period, supporting from beginning to end I find that too much. My limit would be around 50-60$ per game.

You've touched on some of my own points, but I think the reason for:

For example take the NTR fetish, there have been a few games that have added it midway and then it generates quite a conflict. However if you from the start said "hey, this is going to be added" then people would know what they are supporting.

I truly think that every creator should try to explain the concept of the game and what themes will it touch.

Is due to the fact that not every dev even knows where the hell they're going with it. I think this is pretty obvious when you're playing these games and the story doesn't make linear sense it's just like, hey here's a sex scene so you'll stay off my back about this update not being very good.

The dev who made Descent, an above average game, already had it created and would release it in weekly chapters. 10 weeks total. The problem is that this is a horrible approach from a monetization standpoint (I don't even know if this dude had a Patreon), but this was something that he wanted to do and that he was interested in, which is awesome. Unfortunately, this is not sustainable nor viable for most developers, but it highlights how much better these games are when they actually know what they want to do.

Lust & Passion states that he has x amount of days mapped out for A Wife and Mother, other than these two particular cases, I haven't seen many people come into this with a clear vision.

Honestly everything you've outlined mirrors my own feelings about devs and highlights why it can be difficult to sub to developers who haven't already established a high bar for themselves a la Dr. Pinkcake.

 

[DawnCry]

You've touched on some of my own points, but I think the reason for:

For example take the NTR fetish, there have been a few games that have added it midway and then it generates quite a conflict. However if you from the start said "hey, this is going to be added" then people would know what they are supporting.

I truly think that every creator should try to explain the concept of the game and what themes will it touch.

Is due to the fact that not every dev even knows where the hell they're going with it. I think this is pretty obvious when you're playing these games and the story doesn't make linear sense it's just like, hey here's a sex scene so you'll stay off my back about this update not being very good.

The dev who made Descent, an above average game, already had it created and would release it in weekly chapters. 10 weeks total. The problem is that this is a horrible approach from a monetization standpoint (I don't even know if this dude had a Patreon), but this was something that he wanted to do and that he was interested in, which is awesome. Unfortunately, this is not sustainable nor viable for most developers, but it highlights how much better these games are when they actually know what they want to do.

Lust & Passion states that he has x amount of days mapped out for A Wife and Mother, other than these two particular cases, I haven't seen many people come into this with a clear vision.

Honestly everything you've outlined mirrors my own feelings about devs and highlights why it can be difficult to sub to developers who haven't already established a high bar for themselves a la Dr. Pinkcake.

Yeah it is true that some devs don't know where the hell they are going with it, but that's a mistake on their part. If I want to give a top for the main reasons a project can end up failing it would be "not knowing what they are trying to do" as the first one.

I believe that the concept and mechanics should be done from the beginning. The reason is simple, adding it midway usually generates many bugs and problems, sometimes they can make the game unplayable.

It's kind of making a building but having shaky foundations, the usual thing would be for it to end badly, even more this is the reason why many games had to be remade or even have to change engines.

 

[HopesGaming]

I always tell people who PM me about anything regarding being a patron to only pledge if they're financial safe and only the amount that they do not feel 'missing'.
I rather have someone pledge lower amount and not feel anything is missing than someone who pledges higher but then ends up constantly thinking about the amount he/she is missing.
In the end, many of us are simple amateurs who make smut games as a hobby. None of the pledge tiers of mine can be in any form or shape compared to buying the game and all the tiers are 'worth' more than my game itself. And the majority of people know that. Usually, it is people hell-bent on not being a patron to any devs or the few patrons that pledge for the wrong reasons that confuses what the main point of patreon is. It's not to sell or 'kickstart' a game. It's merely a way to throw some spare money to a dev that makes games they enjoy and hope that the dev keeps on making of what they like.

 

[deluges]

I always tell people who PM me about anything regarding being a patron to only pledge if they're financial safe and only the amount that they do not feel 'missing'.
I rather have someone pledge lower amount and not feel anything is missing than someone who pledges higher but then ends up constantly thinking about the amount he/she is missing.
In the end, many of us are simple amateurs who make smut games as a hobby. None of the pledge tiers of mine can be in any form or shape compared to buying the game and all the tiers are 'worth' more than my game itself. And the majority of people know that. Usually, it is people hell-bent on not being a patron to any devs or the few patrons that pledge for the wrong reasons that confuses what the main point of patreon is. It's not to sell or 'kickstart' a game. It's merely a way to throw some spare money to a dev that makes games they enjoy and hope that the dev keeps on making of what they like.

Agreed, but the last sentence you wrote is where it gets interesting because there's monthly monetary goals that some devs set as a mark that they want to hit for whatever reason. I've seen some reasons as outlandish as "I'll quit college and just work on this game!" Which, pfft, anyway, my point is that this would seem to be indicative of prolonged support rather than mere "tipping". This is where my curiosity kicks in and I wonder "What's the expectation here?".

 

[HopesGaming]

Agreed, but the last sentence you wrote is where it gets interesting because there's monthly monetary goals that some devs set as a mark that they want to hit for whatever reason. I've seen some reasons as outlandish as "I'll quit college and just work on this game!" Which, pfft, anyway, my point is that this would seem to be indicative of prolonged support rather than mere "tipping". This is where my curiosity kicks in and I wonder "What's the expectation here?".

True and even I myself have made a goal part in which I write that after a specific amount of patrons (300) that I would go full time on my project. When you just start you try to read on how to make tiers and how to be successful. Always comes a section about goals so you feel like you have to have one. Combined with the dreaming and wishes you have the 'full-time job' part seems like the one to go after.
But alas, a newbies mistake is shown after some time in the business and when I reached 300 I was still far under minimum wage if I quit my main job. And that's with a healthy ratio of patron/pledge ratio (around 5). So I moved it to 500 but as I go up the ladder I am just thinking of removing that goal altogether. The longer I am in this business the less I like the goal itself.
Should be noted that my real life work is a family restaurant so luckily if I quit it I can always go back no problem if my patron life goes completely bananas. Probably why I was so lax on making the goal to start with.

 

[deluges]

True and even I myself have made a goal part in which I write that after a specific amount of patrons (300) that I would go full time on my project. When you just start you try to read on how to make tiers and how to be successful. Always comes a section about goals so you feel like you have to have one. Combined with the dreaming and wishes you have the 'full-time job' part seems like the one to go after.
But alas, a newbies mistake is shown after some time in the business and when I reached 300 I was still far under minimum wage if I quit my main job. And that's with a healthy ratio of patron/pledge ratio (around 5). So I moved it to 500 but as I go up the ladder I am just thinking of removing that goal altogether. The longer I am in this business the less I like the goal itself.
Should be noted that my real life work is a family restaurant so luckily if I quit it I can always go back no problem if my patron life goes completely bananas. Probably why I was so lax on making the goal to start with.

Then do (or did) you count on x amount of turnover monthly?

 

[HopesGaming]

Then do (or did) you count on x amount of turnover monthly?

Pretty much wanted to be a bit above the minimum wage status.
But after being in the business and learned about how tough and the toll it can have I am more relaxed about it now and I am aiming to reach the average monthly wage here in Denmark which is around the 4k mark.

 

[Joshua Tree]

I try spread it around. Pledge for a few months, then stop and pledge to some other creators for a while, and then onto next ones etc. If a game I liked end up completed, I don't mind tip the jar a bit extra that month.

People kinda need to get into the grove they are supporting the creator to complete a game. Not about buying the game, or subscribing to it. At same time, some games take very long time to complete. Why I prefer spread support around.

 

[Flecc]

With me it varies i have supported creators to completion of a game ,others i have pulled pledges after a few months if i don't like the way a game is going recently i have pulled all pledges due to a period off work,Though i will reinstate some once i am back up and running.

Their is no hard a fast rule how much you pledge or how long you pledge for ultimately it what you feel comfortable with in terms of creator pledged, Pledge amount and length of time you pledge

 

[macadam]

depend of multiples factors...
- game progression (not necessary speed. if the game is great, i prefer wait for something good than a speed things shit out)
- devs relation (if dev is active and have nice contact with his patrons, i m good with it)

i mostly pledge a low amount (1-2$) for a duration of 1 or 2 years depeding of the project.
i never go more than 2 year, wich is for me , more than enougth to develop an indie porn game. soo technically i max out at 20-30 $ in total.
but i can also pledge more ( i pledged 45$ on a great game for few months some time ago).

biggest problem for me when i pledge big is that my money never fall in the same date, soo most of time i miss the pledge and my fucking bank dont miss the taxes -_-.


but obviously i understand that only few peopels would pledge big for a game that take years to be done without any garantee that it actually gonna be done completly. (Big Brother.. hm hm)

 

[macadam]

Pretty much wanted to be a bit above the minimum wage status.
But after being in the business and learned about how tough and the toll it can have I am more relaxed about it now and I am aiming to reach the average monthly wage here in Denmark which is around the 4k mark.

denmark average wage is 4K € per month ?? what the fuck ?? this is twice the amount of my country LOL , come live here buddy ! XD


PS : ho ! my bad , you dont use €uro in there... pfoooo! i was scared for a moment XD

 

[deluges]

depend of multiples factors...
- game progression (not necessary speed. if the game is great, i prefer wait for something good than a speed things shit out)
- devs relation (if dev is active and have nice contact with his patrons, i m good with it)

i mostly pledge a low amount (1-2$) for a duration of 1 or 2 years depeding of the project.
i never go more than 2 year, wich is for me , more than enougth to develop an indie porn game. soo technically i max out at 20-30 $ in total.
but i can also pledge more ( i pledged 45$ on a great game for few months some time ago).

biggest problem for me when i pledge big is that my money never fall in the same date, soo most of time i miss the pledge and my fucking bank dont miss the taxes -_-.


but obviously i understand that only few peopels would pledge big for a game that take years to be done without any garantee that it actually gonna be done completly. (Big Brother.. hm hm)

Nice, finally someone addressing my main question, ha. The 1-2 dollar thing is great, and understandable, but there have been very few games that I've wanted to sub to that offered this as an option, usually it's about 5 bucks minimum. Now that I think about it, there's absolutely no reason that that shouldn't be an option. I feel like you'd get more money by opening up broader subscription options, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ .

 

[macadam]

Nice, finally someone addressing my main question, ha. The 1-2 dollar thing is great, and understandable, but there have been very few games that I've wanted to sub to that offered this as an option, usually it's about 5 bucks minimum. Now that I think about it, there's absolutely no reason that that shouldn't be an option. I feel like you'd get more money by opening up broader subscription options, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ .

in my opinion of dev. i think put a 1$ is a great idea because it open 2 possibilities in the possible futur patrons.

1 - they can simply give a small buck as a thanks, without being forced to pay more for get something in return. i myself like to give a buck sometime just for encouragement or else without expecting anything in return. Because if i got something in return, then i consider that i m not give my thanks, but simply ask/buy for something. and i not like this.

2 - it open door to way more peoples... i know that 1 buck is almost nothing whatever the country you live. But some peoples just want to give that and not more, for whatever reasons... and they are also peoples who doesnt have possibility to jump into giving more.

i honestlythink that a 1$ tier should be mandatory in patreon and peopels shouldnt be able to start directly at 5 or more.

i dont think you make more money with lower tier. why peoples would give 10$ when they can give 1$ ? i mean, yeah, of course you can always hide some things behind a paywall to force them. but that's not correct imho. Soo obviously lots of peoples would simply give a small 1$ and move on. But put the minimum at 5$ or more to get a version of the game.... meh... what kind of porn indie , not garantee to be finish, games would cost that much ? none of them imho, unless its a real gem. wich is extremly rare theses days.

but for peoples like me, giving 5 bucks just because i want to give a lil' "thank you" to the dev or cheer him for continu his good work is too much. i m not into hidding my money under my matress, but i think the sign/gesture (whatever you call that) to show that i like the game is more important than helping dev to do this for a living . at least, not at beginning of a dev/game. i want to be sure it have solid base first and not gonna flop in the abyss.

 

[deluges]

in my opinion of dev. i think put a 1$ is a great idea because it open 2 possibilities in the possible futur patrons.

1 - they can simply give a small buck as a thanks, without being forced to pay more for get something in return. i myself like to give a buck sometime just for encouragement or else without expecting anything in return. Because if i got something in return, then i consider that i m not give my thanks, but simply ask/buy for something. and i not like this.

2 - it open door to way more peoples... i know that 1 buck is almost nothing whatever the country you live. But some peoples just want to give that and not more, for whatever reasons... and they are also peoples who doesnt have possibility to jump into giving more.

i honestlythink that a 1$ tier should be mandatory in patreon and peopels shouldnt be able to start directly at 5 or more.

i dont think you make more money with lower tier. why peoples would give 10$ when they can give 1$ ? i mean, yeah, of course you can always hide some things behind a paywall to force them. but that's not correct imho. Soo obviously lots of peoples would simply give a small 1$ and move on. But put the minimum at 5$ or more to get a version of the game.... meh... what kind of porn indie , not garantee to be finish, games would cost that much ? none of them imho, unless its a real gem. wich is extremly rare theses days.

but for peoples like me, giving 5 bucks just because i want to give a lil' "thank you" to the dev or cheer him for continu his good work is too much. i m not into hidding my money under my matress, but i think the sign/gesture (whatever you call that) to show that i like the game is more important than helping dev to do this for a living . at least, not at beginning of a dev/game. i want to be sure it have solid base first and not gonna flop in the abyss.

You've nailed it, completely. 1 dollar may not some like much to a dev... but it also doesn't seem like much to a potential subscriber. I'm far less likely to notice 1 dollar missing from my bank account than 20, meaning, I could actually forget that I'm subscribed to something because it's such a small amount. Also, for every one ten dollar subscriber I'd think there would be more than that willing to donate just a dollar, so it's a net positive.

The reason for the gap between 1-whatever ridiculous amount some devs ask for, is the "rewards". Which is kind of ridiculous. Most people are going to pirate that shit as soon as it's released, so thank you to the heroes of the higher tiers who do that, so basically these tiers are for, ultimately, like one person. I know that some games have more than just early release rewards such as being an npc or specialized thank yous, but who cares. Most of us just want to play the most recent releases as early as possible and to do that, you just need one person, which is why I think the tier system is inherently flawed. I'm not sure how to fix it. My suggestion would be to do away with tier rewards and merely offer different monetary options for people to subscribe to, including one time "tips". Granted, this depends on what's actually allowed (or offered) by Patreon, but one could always just subscribe for 20 bucks and then cancel their subscription afterwards. I do think that there should be premium rewards for 20 plus bucks.... but not if it actually affects the game. I don't like the idea of random assholes with money being able to influence games.

I think part of the problem is that some developers don't necessarily appreciate "5 dollar gifts" as you put it, and focus more on their "goal" or "bottom line". It's all about hitting that specific number and kind of disregarding lower donation patrons and catering to those who will give them the most money... which is fucked up, but also pretty much how our society works, at least in the U.S..

 

[Joraell]

Always is better 1000 patreons pledging 1usd than 50 pledging 20Usd. If 20 decide to leave you will lost 20 usd and you can still continue, make pay to programer and other. If you lost half of month pledge, continuing is ehm... discutable. Every dev who really want's to make something from start investing big amount of time and money to computer and time to making enough content in time.

Every patreon is fine doesn't matter if pledging 1 or 20. Best patreons is the ones who communicate with dev.