VN Ren'Py Friends in Need [Ch.1 Remake v0.25] [NeonGhosts]

[prpa]

There's been a lot of talk about how the new Nicki is a different character after the remake. And yes, I agree. And not just different, but much more one-dimensional and uninteresting. However, another character who is seriously damaged by the remake is Guy.
In the original Chapter 1, "Evil Guy" had a reason for what he did. Even if that reason was only in his head, he did have one. Evil Guy resented Nicki. And he handled that pain in the worst possible way. But the new Nicki doesn't give him any reason, no matter how remote or twisted, to be an asshole. Nicki is the perfect friend. In fact, she's too perfect to be real. A classic Mary Sue, without any rough edges. And what does Evil Guy become now? A bad comic book villain. A guy who's an asshole just because, period.

I want to emphasize that the remake has good points. The new art is far superior, for example. And you have some interesting narrative explanations. However, in my opinion, it turns the story's two main characters into a joke. Especially in the Dark Path.
Nicki and Guy (especially Evil Guy) are no longer interesting. They're a bad cliché now.

The remake just made Nicki more consistent with her behavior in subsequent chapters. i don't see how that made her one-dimensional; she was always meant to be a good friend to Guy. The bulk of her character development comes in later chapters anyway.

Why does Evil Guy need a reason to rape Nicki? It's like people forget that he also brutally raped Viola and Ashe. What was the justification there? What reason did they give him? Evil Guy is a rich psychopath—he doesn't need any reason or justification.

​

 

[RC-1138 Boss]

The remake just made Nicki more consistent with her behavior in subsequent chapters. i don't see how that made her one-dimensional; she was always meant to be a good friend to Guy. The bulk of her character development comes in later chapters anyway.

Why does Evil Guy need a reason to rape Nicki? It's like people forget that he also brutally raped Viola and Ashe. What was the justification there? What reason did they give him? Evil Guy is a rich psychopath—he doesn't need any reason or justification.

View attachment 4835532​

Pretty much this. Evil Guy is someone barely holding back his dark impulses over anything that may set him of no matter what said trigger may be.
The remade chapter 1 brings his persona more in line with what he can do to Ashe or Viola.

 

[ffive]

Why does Evil Guy need a reason to rape Nicki? It's like people forget that he also brutally raped Viola and Ashe. What was the justification there? What reason did they give him? Evil Guy is a rich psychopath—he doesn't need any reason or justification.

Neither Viola nor Ashe are Guy's best friend forever and ever, something he acknowledges even to himself, so even accounting for this factor alone what he does to pretty much complete strangers has little bearing on Nicki situation.

The issue is mainly that, where before you could have some sort of "origin story" for the evil Guy, in this iteration this aspect is gone. "Guy is evil just because (deal with it)" makes the protagonist relatively shallow. And while you can have protagonist who "simply is like that" people are inherently interested in knowing those reasons and/or justifications "why they're like that".

 

[Pixillin']

Pretty much this. Evil Guy is someone barely holding back his dark impulses over anything that may set him of no matter what said trigger may be.
The remade chapter 1 brings his persona more in line with what he can do to Ashe or Viola.

Basically if your friend comes to you to get your help because they're in danger and you respond by violently assaulting them (no matter how they're dressed) you're a shitty person and if you're a shitty person, you don't need good reasons to do shitty things.

 

[prpa]

Neither Viola nor Ashe are Guy's best friend forever and ever, something he acknowledges even to himself, so even accounting for this factor alone what he does to pretty much complete strangers has little bearing on Nicki situation.

The issue is mainly that, where before you could have some sort of "origin story" for the evil Guy, in this iteration this aspect is gone. "Guy is evil just because (deal with it)" makes the protagonist relatively shallow. And while you can have protagonist who "simply is like that" people are inherently interested in knowing those reasons and/or justifications "why they're like that".

I didn't play Evil Guy as much as Good Guy, but I always regarded Evil Guy as a psychopath. I'm not a psychologist, but I've read that psychopaths can't form real emotional bonds with people/friends (no empathy or struggling with empathy)—they use them as a means to an end and cut them loose once they’re no longer useful. So I don't see why he would treat Nicki any better than Ashe or Viola.

I could be wrong (probably am), but that's just how I see it.

 

[NeegNog]

the story doesnt have to be that deep to have fun playing it ,i actually want good looking scenes wich have improved , but the sex content got shorter in chp1 so its a bit of a tradeoff

 

[ffive]

I didn't play Evil Guy as much as Good Guy, but I always regarded Evil Guy as a psychopath. I'm not a psychologist, but I've read that psychopaths can't form real emotional bonds with people or friends—they use them as a means to an end and cut them loose once they’re no longer useful. So I don't see why he would treat Nicki any better than Ashe or Viola.

The problem here is that if Guy internally acknowledges Nicki as his close friend, then you can hardly pretend to yourself that he's a psychopath who lacks emotional bonds and is just faking them externally. I mean, you can, but you'd be basically going directly against what the game shows you in this regard.

The separate issue is that, again, while just shrugging off Guy as a psychopath "well, he's just like that" can work for you because that's how you always viewed him, there's players who didn't play their evil Guy this way. And the more elaborate "self-justified" way of playing such Guy is now gone. That's what they dislike, and telling them "well, you can just play Guy differently now" isn't really going to make it any better (for them).

(and to provide a bit of different perspective, personally, i liked previous ambiguity the game had in the prologue because it made a Guy who decides to help his friend regardless of personal doubts/misgivings a relatively bigger person than the one who does it because duh, it's a no brainer)

 

[RC-1138 Boss]

Basically if your friend comes to you to get your help because they're in danger and you respond by violently assaulting them (no matter how they're dressed) you're a shitty person and if you're a shitty person, you don't need good reasons to do shitty things.

Pretty much.
There is no good justifications for what a psycopath/serial rapist do/did/can do. At least none that a person capable of empathy would relate to.

 

[NeegNog]

Basically if your friend comes to you to get your help because they're in danger and you respond by violently assaulting them (no matter how they're dressed) you're a shitty person and if you're a shitty person, you don't need good reasons to do shitty things.

i mean she was guy's best friend , and he had a crush on her for a long time , just to come trying to seduce him for his money when he become rich (all for the guy he hated most) can be seen as a betrayal , nicki may be loyal , but she can be easily manipulated or get stuck in an unhealthy relationship

 

[soldano]

People, no one here is talking about a moral justification. We're talking about a narrative justification. Why does a seemingly normal guy like Guy suddenly become a rapist? Because he gets a taste of power, of dominance, and he likes it. And how does that start? Because he's hurt when his friend, who's also his crush, and who's fucking a guy he hates, comes to his house asking for money to fix the problems that guy caused. That's the spark that lights the fuse. And from there... Have you ever heard of the dog that tasted blood?

And that's why I was talking about a bad comic book villain. A bad villain doesn't have a breaking point. He's just bad. That's what happens with the new Evil Guy. Honestly, if it had been like that in the first iteration of Chapter 1, I would never have continued playing. I would have been bored, plain and simple. And, by the way, that also happens with Ashe's first rape and Viola's rape. Both are boring because they have no backstory. Quite the opposite of dinner with Ashe, for example, which is the prime of this game.

 

[NeonGhosts]

I feel like I'm arguing with people who lack the basic ability to read into a situation and draw their own conclusions. It's like I'm arguing with people whose media consumption is filtered entirely through Cinema Sins.

"UMMMM, actually it simply makes no sense that this character would suddenly do harm to someone they considered a friend. As the narrative provided no explicit justification, you must have simply overlooked it! *sniff, sniff* Now, please sit back for my treatise on why we should know what was in the briefcase in Pulp Fiction."

Like, do people realize that the gross majority of assaults happen between two people that are known to each other? Like, what the fuck are we doing here? I feel like I'm arguing with people who are just really bummed I toned down the first chapter, and if they wrap their frustration up in the most spurious of arguments, I'll eventually concede.

 

[NeonGhosts]

People, no one here is talking about a moral justification. We're talking about a narrative justification. Why does a seemingly normal guy like Guy suddenly become a rapist? Because he gets a taste of power, of dominance, and he likes it. And how does that start? Because he's hurt when his friend, who's also his crush, and who's fucking a guy he hates, comes to his house asking for money to fix the problems that guy caused. That's the spark that lights the fuse. And from there... Have you ever heard of the dog that tasted blood?

We don't know that Guy is a normal person. He likes Nicki? Lots of toxic, shitty people love their moms. I'm not telling you that Guy has the potential for evil, because I'm showing you. To get to the dark route with Nicki you have to consistently display behavior that is kind of shitty, misogynistic, and gross. So, when he acts out in a moment of frustration/fear of losing his chance, it isn't a sudden, harsh departure from the person we've seen. It's just another step on the escalation ladder.

 

[Pixillin']

i mean she was guy's best friend , and he had a crush on her for a long time , just to come trying to seduce him for his money when he become rich (all for the guy he hated most) can be seen as a betrayal , nicki may be loyal , but she can be easily manipulated or get stuck in an unhealthy relationship

If he sees it as a betrayal, which is a stretch, he would be justified in kicking her out and not giving her any money but not in assaulting her.

 

[NeegNog]

If he sees it as a betrayal, which is a stretch, he would be justified in kicking her out and not giving her any money but not in assaulting her.

Yeah, poor Nicki , now she has to go to therapy for the 7,100th time because some player picked the "bad" option again.

 

[prpa]

The problem here is that if Guy internally acknowledges Nicki as his close friend, then you can hardly pretend to yourself that he's a psychopath who lacks emotional bonds and is just faking them externally. I mean, you can, but you'd be basically going directly against what the game shows you in this regard.

He could be lying to himself, or maybe he's just an unreliable narrator. .

Also, actions speak louder than words. Who does that to his BFF? (Ashe and Viola too!) He shows no remorse or empathy afterward, how else am I supposed to see him, if not as a psycho?

The separate issue is that, again, while just shrugging off Guy as a psychopath "well, he's just like that" can work for you because that's how you always viewed him, there's players who didn't play their evil Guy this way. And the more elaborate "self-justified" way of playing such Guy is now gone. That's what they dislike, and telling them "well, you can just play Guy differently now" isn't really going to make it any better (for them).

Sorry, I didn’t mean to tell others how they should play or view Evil Guy—I was just sharing my personal opinion. I personally loved Chapter 1 before the remake, and I wouldn’t have minded if it had stayed the same. I do feel for the people who don’t like the changes.

(and to provide a bit of different perspective, personally, i liked previous ambiguity the game had in the prologue because it made a Guy who decides to help his friend regardless of personal doubts/misgivings a relatively bigger person than the one who does it because duh, it's a no brainer)

I agree.

 

[ffive]

If he sees it as a betrayal, which is a stretch, he would be justified in kicking her out and not giving her any money but not in assaulting her.

I think you can't really start to argue what actions an unhinged person is "justified" to do when at the same time you argue that "unhinged person needs no justification whatsoever to do whatever the fuck they feel like doing". Why do you think a Guy who is a creep "because he is" has carte blanche to act however he likes, but the same guy triggered by Nicki's behavior suddenly is supposed to have limits to his outburst? After all, neither of them is a rational human being.

 

[Pixillin']

I think you can't really start to argue what actions an unhinged person is "justified" to do when at the same time you argue that "unhinged person needs no justification whatsoever to do whatever the fuck they feel like doing". Why do you think a Guy who is a creep "because he is" has carte blanche to act however he likes, but the same guy triggered by Nicki's behavior suddenly is supposed to have limits to his outburst?

I said that earlier. If a friend comes to you for help and you violently attack them, then you're a shitty person and a shitty person doesn't need a reason to do shitty things. I was talking about playing him as a good or even normal person. Nothing Nicki did in either version would justify that response. Some people might feel better if they can convince themselves that Nicki did something wrong but that still wouldn't justify attacking her, and there's no justification for attacking Ashe, Viola, Brittany, or Pepper in any case.

 

[Ragnar]

I feel like I'm arguing with people who lack the basic ability to read into a situation and draw their own conclusions. It's like I'm arguing with people whose media consumption is filtered entirely through Cinema Sins.

"UMMMM, actually it simply makes no sense that this character would suddenly do harm to someone they considered a friend. As the narrative provided no explicit justification, you must have simply overlooked it! *sniff, sniff* Now, please sit back for my treatise on why we should know what was in the briefcase in Pulp Fiction."

Like, do people realize that the gross majority of assaults happen between two people that are known to each other? Like, what the fuck are we doing here? I feel like I'm arguing with people who are just really bummed I toned down the first chapter, and if they wrap their frustration up in the most spurious of arguments, I'll eventually concede.

Really? The you just don't get it argument? There are several pages of people telling you exactly what is the problem with the remake of that single scene. I suppose you just don't get it

 

[NeonGhosts]

Really? The you just don't get it argument? There are several pages of people telling you exactly what is the problem with the remake of that single scene. I suppose you just don't get it

It’s more like, “A handful of people are being willfully obtuse, and demanding explanation for things which don’t actually require them.”

There’s a bit in the comic Watchmen, where the antihero Rorschach takes his mask off before confronting Doctor Manhattan, and being killed. Now, throughout the comic Rorschach has viciously fought to keep his mask on, referring to it as his face, and generally seeing it as his true self. Why then, would he remove it at the moment of his death?! It makes no sense, based on the textual evidence!

Or I can apply my own personal interpretation. Maybe he didn’t want “Rorschach” to die, but he was fine with his human alter ego Walter Kovacs being killed. Maybe at the end he rejected the identity of Rorschach, and chose to die not as a mask but as a man. Maybe he wanted Manhattan to look him in the eyes when he killed him. Maybe his nose itched.

These are all possibilities, because the author trusts the audience to connect the dots on their own, and didn’t feel like he needed to spoon-feed the narrative to anyone.

Worth noting, in the long form interview An Evening with an Extraordinary Gentleman, Alan Moore was asked why this event transpired as it did. His reply? “I don’t know, it just seemed like what he’d do at the time.”

 

[Master of Puppets]

I said that earlier. If a friend comes to you for help and you violently attack them, then you're a shitty person and a shitty person doesn't need a reason to do shitty things. I was talking about playing him as a good or even normal person. Nothing Nicki did in either version would justify that response. Some people might feel better if they can convince themselves that Nicki did something wrong but that still wouldn't justify attacking her, and there's no justification for attacking Ashe, Viola, Brittany, or Pepper in any case.

The irony is hilarious. "Some people might feel better if they can convince themselves that Nicki did something wrong"? You're trying to insult people (a shitty thing, by the way), but you're making their point for them. The point is that he should justify it to himself. You know, like bad people do? Very few people who do horrible things don't justify them to themselves in one way or another.
And it doesn't matter about the later ones, they are completely irrelevant to the discussion. They happen after the character development everyone is talking about. Once he's already on that path, he doesn't need the same motivation to continue. People call it "comic book mentality", but comic books are better than this; supervillains may not have justification for every crime they commit, but they usually have an origin story that does have motivation. You see how that works?