Dessolos

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Yeah, I agree with all that. Real-life harems are either by force, manipulation, lack of alternatives, or lower standards on the part of the women (for themselves). The closest thing to harem you're ever going to get with a woman who loves you is her letting you have sex with other women occasionally as a gift, or swinging with other couples; none of them want to hear "I'm in love with the other woman" or "the other woman is in love with me"; even if she's bisexual, she's not going to want that (gay orgies are a thing, lesbian ones not so much unless they're getting paid). Makes it a really, really hard sell in a VN if you're going for some semblance of realism. I think it works a lot better in more fantastical settings like Desert Stalker, or like cartoon porn games that aren't going for realism. But even then, the relationships still aren't really all that interesting because they're heavily simplified and constrained.

And just fyi, harem isn't NTR. I mean, are you saying all those kings and warlords throughout history were cucks? :p
I find it funny how popular harems are for MC's in anime or in AVN's without any kind of NTR or sharing tbh. Typically when I think of a harem I think of the MC being some kind cruel bastard that lends his girls to a business partner , another faction or something against their will. Not the fantasy version we see where all the girls are in love with the MC
 

Pixillin'

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Yeah, I agree with all that. Real-life harems are either by force, manipulation, lack of alternatives, or lower standards on the part of the women (for themselves). The closest thing to harem you're ever going to get with a woman who loves you is her letting you have sex with other women occasionally as a gift, or swinging with other couples; none of them want to hear "I'm in love with the other woman" or "the other woman is in love with me"; even if she's bisexual, she's not going to want that (gay orgies are a thing, lesbian ones not so much unless they're getting paid). Makes it a really, really hard sell in a VN if you're going for some semblance of realism. I think it works a lot better in more fantastical settings like Desert Stalker, or like cartoon porn games that aren't going for realism. But even then, the relationships still aren't really all that interesting because they're heavily simplified and constrained.

And just fyi, harem isn't NTR. I mean, are you saying all those kings and warlords throughout history were cucks? :p
I've come across a few that do harems semi well - and even a few that are sort of anime/cartoonish but where they have actual relationship development and a plausible reason for a harem. (Like you being a sort of god of lust who makes everyone around you horny). And I know Harem isn't NTR. I'm just saying that if it was going for realism it would be more like you have an open relationship with a bunch of women - but they are also free to pursue their own "harem" (but no one wants that so harems are generally a negative for me.)
 
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What anime most commonly calls "harem" is actually situation "many women are ready to start relationship with one guy". It's not necessary that they would get along with each other, or (in case of VNs) that guy would be in relationship with several women at the same time. So, very different from historical harems.

And yes, I saw several stories with stable polyamory. The most important thing there was trust between all of participants. And lack of focus on one person, especially if it's one guy with many women. If he is the only one that makes harem possible, it means that it would break at some point, because his efforts wouldn't be enough. But usually it's ignored because not many want to see such efforts on preventing problems, it's easier just stop the story before such problems would appear.
 
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PHIL101-YYouPPHard

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I find it funny how popular harems are for MC's in anime or in AVN's without any kind of NTR or sharing tbh. Typically when I think of a harem I think of the MC being some kind cruel bastard that lends his girls to a business partner , another faction or something against their will. Not the fantasy version we see where all the girls are in love with the MC
Yeah, that's what I think of too, it's more believable that way; the romantic harem is a male fantasy for sure. Which is completely fine btw, I'm not trying to shame people who like that kind of stuff or anything; I mean, that's the point of VNs for a lot of us, to have fun with a fantasy. I'm just saying that if you're looking for something that feels really plausible and sucks you in, romantic harems usually don't do it.

That said, even though it isn't very believable, one of the problems is just that mature writing and complex characters are hard to come by in general. I think I could get down with a romantic harem game that had those qualities. When Neon finishes this game, if he still goes forward with his idea to add a lighter, harem-anime-style mode, I think it'd be fun to play through.

And just a quick thought about the NTR/sharing - NTR is really about shaming the MC, so it's understandable why most games wouldn't touch that, it's a very specific kink. Sharing doesn't have to be that at all, though, and in fact it can be executed in a dominant way. It makes so much sense for some stories. But alas, a lot of guys don't like it and mistakenly associate it with NTR. :(

I've come across a few that do harems semi well - and even a few that are sort of anime/cartoonish but where they have actual relationship development and a plausible reason for a harem. (Like you being a sort of god of lust who makes everyone around you horny). And I know Harem isn't NTR. I'm just saying that if it was going for realism it would be more like you have an open relationship with a bunch of women - but they are also free to pursue their own "harem" (but no one wants that so harems are generally a negative for me.)
Oh ok, I gotcha; I agree.

But, an open relationship also isn't NTR. So, maybe NTR is technically different from cucking, like a subcategory of it or something, but since there isn't a cuckold tag, it's basically cuckold on this website. Anyways, like I said, NTR is a very specific kink where a guy basically is quelling his own fears of inadequacy or being cheated on by controlling it (i.e., "I'm scared you're going to cheat anyways, so I'll have you 'cheat' in front of me, and you did it because I allowed it"; and maybe he's aroused by feeling in control of it); or because he's aroused by those feelings themselves (i.e., "I'm turned on by feeling inadequate, so I want you to cheat behind my back or make me watch, and there's nothing I can do about it").

Open relationships, with trust and without any ulterior motives from either partner, is more about loss of jealousy, free/open love, honesty about human nature, and so on. That's what it's supposed to be, anyways; I'm sure it's different things for different couples. I think a lot of attempts at open relationships basically become cucking because the relationship isn't actually trusting or loving, or end up feeling like cucking because there's still jealousy, but those are separate issues. Most people aren't cut out for it. (including me, sheeeiiiiit)

EDIT: so, I forgot about the cheating tag, which probably works better as cuckold tag; I think NTR is supposed to specifically be about someone stealing your LI, so I'm a little off here since it's not technically cucking. however, the feelings of jealousy and inadequacy are still there as the focus, so I think my ultimate point is still intact.
 
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Jplays512

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I am really glad I played the remake before playing the older content because it really helped make me more willing to give Nicki a shot.

I get why she isn’t the most loved character in the original after the first few chapters but she definitely becomes a great character later on.

I am a bit worried tho that chapter one in the remake is just setting it up where she knew how he was rich and was just trying to get his money like the original. I like not having to wait a few chapters for her to be likeable again.
 
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Pixillin'

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I am really glad I played the remake before playing the older content because it really helped make me more willing to give Nicki a shot.

I get why she isn’t the most loved character in the original after the first few chapters but she definitely becomes a great character later on.

I am a bit worried tho that chapter one in the remake is just setting it up where she knew how he was rich and was just trying to get his money like the original. I like not having to wait a few chapters for her to be likeable again.
I've always liked Nicki, even in the original. I took it as her being in a bad spot and coming to the only person she knew who might be able to help. Also, given guy's wealth she wasn't asking for a lot - the working class equivalent of telling a friend you desperately need a fiver or you might die.
 

Pixillin'

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Yeah, that's what I think of too, it's more believable that way; the romantic harem is a male fantasy for sure. Which is completely fine btw, I'm not trying to shame people who like that kind of stuff or anything; I mean, that's the point of VNs for a lot of us, to have fun with a fantasy. I'm just saying that if you're looking for something that feels really plausible and sucks you in, romantic harems usually don't do it.

That said, even though it isn't very believable, one of the problems is just that mature writing and complex characters are hard to come by in general. I think I could get down with a romantic harem game that had those qualities. When Neon finishes this game, if he still goes forward with his idea to add a lighter, harem-anime-style mode, I think it'd be fun to play through.

And just a quick thought about the NTR/sharing - NTR is really about shaming the MC, so it's understandable why most games wouldn't touch that, it's a very specific kink. Sharing doesn't have to be that at all, though, and in fact it can be executed in a dominant way. It makes so much sense for some stories. But alas, a lot of guys don't like it and mistakenly associate it with NTR. :(


Oh ok, I gotcha; I agree.

But, an open relationship also isn't NTR. So, maybe NTR is technically different from cucking, like a subcategory of it or something, but since there isn't a cuckold tag, it's basically cuckold on this website. Anyways, like I said, NTR is a very specific kink where a guy basically is quelling his own fears of inadequacy or being cheated on by controlling it (i.e., "I'm scared you're going to cheat anyways, so I'll have you 'cheat' in front of me, and you did it because I allowed it"; and maybe he's aroused by feeling in control of it); or because he's aroused by those feelings themselves (i.e., "I'm turned on by feeling inadequate, so I want you to cheat behind my back or make me watch, and there's nothing I can do about it").

Open relationships, with trust and without any ulterior motives from either partner, is more about loss of jealousy, free/open love, honesty about human nature, and so on. That's what it's supposed to be, anyways; I'm sure it's different things for different couples. I think a lot of attempts at open relationships basically become cucking because the relationship isn't actually trusting or loving, or end up feeling like cucking because there's still jealousy, but those are separate issues. Most people aren't cut out for it. (including me, sheeeiiiiit)
Yeah, the problem is everyone has their own level of tolerance for any kind of sharing, and even their own definition of what NTR is. So, in most cases, you either have to go one way or the other because once you cross that line - to allowing any - you'll have people hounding you for more and more and other people hounding you for less and less - and any other aspect of the game (writing, art, etc) will lose focus. So it's best to come down clearly on one side or the other (or just have a switch like Desert Stalker that toggles all of it on or off.) Personally I have a very low tolerance for it, so I avoid NTR games but at the same time a romantic harem where only the MC gets to fuck around is unrealistic so I'll do solo paths most of the time (where it's an option). As I said, there are harem games that I like but if I was choosing blind without knowing anything else about it - I'd pick the solo game over the harem game and not a NTR/sharing solo game.
 
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Jplays512

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I've always liked Nicki, even in the original. I took it as her being in a bad spot and coming to the only person she knew who might be able to help. Also, given guy's wealth she wasn't asking for a lot - the working class equivalent of telling a friend you desperately need a fiver or you might die.
I mean if my best friend who knew I was kinda into them came dressed up and tried to honey pot me I would be annoyed. If they just came and was like “hey I really need money or I will be in danger” I of course would be like sure here you go.

Hence why I like the new chapter 1 way better. She was just a friend who needed help. The dressing up was due to her boyfriend being terrible, same with the kiss, and potentially sleeping together felt more like a hey I always liked you kinda thing instead of I really need the money.

That is more where I took issue. I get why she did it but how it was worded and it came across was a bit harsh. Honestly even with the rough start she is probably my favorite love interest so far (I am only just starting chapter 5)
 

Pixillin'

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I mean if my best friend who knew I was kinda into them came dressed up and tried to honey pot me I would be annoyed. If they just came and was like “hey I really need money or I will be in danger” I of course would be like sure here you go.

Hence why I like the new chapter 1 way better. She was just a friend who needed help. The dressing up was due to her boyfriend being terrible, same with the kiss, and potentially sleeping together felt more like a hey I always liked you kinda thing instead of I really need the money.

That is more where I took issue. I get why she did it but how it was worded and it came across was a bit harsh. Honestly even with the rough start she is probably my favorite love interest so far (I am only just starting chapter 5)
The remake is absolutely better - just saying that even in the original she tells Guy that her asshole boyfriend told her to dress that way, and Guy already knows that the boyfriend is an asshole so shouldn't be surprised. As I've said before, if I really thought of her as my best friend, I was that wealthy she could have the money with a text message. She wouldn't even have to tell me what it was for if she didn't want to.
 
Jan 13, 2025
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I liked that Nicki wasn't necessarily a great person and will miss it. Very few games treat morally gray characters with a lot of respect as characters, so they're always very one-dimensional and shallow unless they're a main antagonist. The only interesting flaw in most major 'good' characters is that one of them is an over-the-top slut, used to the MC's advantage for early sex scenes.
 

PHIL101-YYouPPHard

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Yeah, the problem is everyone has their own level of tolerance for any kind of sharing, and even their own definition of what NTR is. So, in most cases, you either have to go one way or the other because once you cross that line - to allowing any - you'll have people hounding you for more and more and other people hounding you for less and less - and any other aspect of the game (writing, art, etc) will lose focus. So it's best to come down clearly on one side or the other (or just have a switch like Desert Stalker that toggles all of it on or off.) Personally I have a very low tolerance for it, so I avoid NTR games but at the same time a romantic harem where only the MC gets to fuck around is unrealistic so I'll do solo paths most of the time (where it's an option). As I said, there are harem games that I like but if I was choosing blind without knowing anything else about it - I'd pick the solo game over the harem game and not a NTR/sharing solo game.
Yeah, that is definitely the problem, there's a lot of confusion and insecurity about the whole thing. But sharing is a separate tag from NTR for a very good and clear reason; NTR is about shaming the player, making them feel inadequate and so forth (because it's cuckolding - being cheated on - or about another guy being chosen over you), while sharing is completely the opposite; very different sexual feelings being targeted. It would be like if someone confused BDSM for rape and torture; they intersect only in very shallow ways, but otherwise couldn't be further from each other.
 

Ragnar

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Yeah, that is definitely the problem, there's a lot of confusion and insecurity about the whole thing. But sharing is a separate tag from NTR for a very good and clear reason; NTR is about shaming the player, making them feel inadequate and so forth (because it's cuckolding - being cheated on - or about another guy being chosen over you), while sharing is completely the opposite; very different sexual feelings being targeted. It would be like if someone confused BDSM for rape and torture; they intersect only in very shallow ways, but otherwise couldn't be further from each other.
I'm no expert but I though cuckolding was just sharing. The humillation thing comes from the hentai genre I think.
Anyway, as far as I know there were no plans to add ntr to FiN. Maybe some bad ending with the rapist dude?
 
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NeonGhosts

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Quiiiiick lil' FYI. I need to do one more pass tomorrow, and then I'll be ready to put out a partial release of Season 1, with Chapters 1-7 available. Basically all the new content I've done is in Chapters 2 and 3, but I'm still working on getting a couple things working with Ashe, Pepper, and Dash in the later chapters.

Some stuff you can look forward to..

Title cards! Finally, you'll know what chapter you're in.

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Remastered intros for your old favorites!
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New friends in need!
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And some new tweaks to older interactions!

I cleaned some stuff up with Nicki, Ashe, and Gabby, so now certain things (like kissing Gabby, nearly blackmailing Ashe into sleeping with you only to stop at the last minute, and Nicki's reactions when she's mad at you) are a bit more logical. Also added offramps for some scenes, so you can get a little further into them before jumping off. In Britt's scene you can now stop before getting your dick out in the photoshoot (saving you from the "brifear" variable, while getting more photos), and in Pepper's strip-search you can stop before you turn into a jerk about it.

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All good stuff, I think!
 

PHIL101-YYouPPHard

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I'm no expert but I though cuckolding was just sharing. The humillation thing comes from the hentai genre I think.
Anyway, as far as I know there were no plans to add ntr to FiN. Maybe some bad ending with the rapist dude?
Well, I'm also no expert, but if you look at it more from the emotional side, it makes perfect sense; the idea of a romantic/sexual partner being with someone other than yourself, or you being with someone other than your romantic/sexual partner, can basically come in two forms:
1) consensual openness - swingers partner swapping; two buddies sharing one girl; two besties sharing one guy; wife arranging an escort for husband, or vice versa why not; and so forth, with the presence of self-confidence and security underlying it all and a focus on simply having fun with more than just your partner.
2) ~nonconsensual shame - cheating behind back; 'cheating' in front of you with focus on feeling ashamed or inadequate, or a focus on feeling in control of that shame and inadequacy.

With that in mind, someone into the former won't necessarily be into the latter (might really be turned off by the latter, in fact), and the latter won't necessarily be into the former (same deal, might be really turned off by it), and it's because they focus on different emotions.

I can't say for certain why the admins made the tags the way they did, but I have a strong feeling the logic went roughly in this direction, which is why the NTR and cheating tags are considered separate from the swinging tag (which I've been calling sharing, same thing).

And for FiN, yeah, my understanding was no NTR, but Brit's corruption?/dark route is planned to have forced sharing (porn shoot). Some users would mistakenly consider that NTR.

EDIT: realized cheating and NTR are separate tags on this site lol. whoops, minor change to argument, but my point is still the same.
 
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