Ren'Py Harem Hotel [v0.19.1] [Runey]

[Corvus Belli]

Ashley's family were dirt poor, meaning poverty level.

Yes, exactly my point. When "poverty level" is synonymous with "can't even afford a slave", it kind of suggests they're pretty commonplace.

Thousands of syls has been mentioned for slaves.
Slaves are not cheap, and you have to feed them and pay for any medical care that they may ever need.

Cars are not cheap, and require maintenance and operating costs, but they're still owned by a vast number of people, and not reserved purely for the wealthy. The wealthy can afford more of them, certainly, but they're still ubiquitous among the common family. How many people do you know who own a car, or more than one?

Many people who talk about their ancestors in the confederacy scream that their ancestors never owned a slave, and did not fight to protect slavery.

Syl'anar is not the Confederacy. Both have slavery, and both treat(ed) slaves terribly, and that's where the similarities end; something being true in the Confederacy, does not make it true in Syl'anar.

Even in the south, slaves were far too expensive for the common family to own, but then, the vast majority of the slaves were owned by the rich plantation owners, and not the common people.
The case would be similar in the game.

Two points. First, Syl'anar is not the Confederacy; slaves being too expensive for the common family in the south has no bearing on Syl'anar, no matter how often you repeat it. Asserting "it was true for the Confederacy, and therefore must be true in Syl'anar" is not a compelling argument. We know that some slaves are definitley owned by corporations and businesses, but we also know they're commonplace enough that random citizens can purchase them off the internet.
One of the earliest events in the game is Two Tie Guy approaching a random person on the street (the MC) and asking if he'd like to come to a slave auction on the beach; if slave owners can confidently presume that random people on the street can afford a slave, then they're probably fairly commonplace. And how much is he selling those slaves for? 200-400 syls. They're cheap as chips.

Second, you're wrong about slave ownership in the Confederacy.
Almost one-third of all southern families owned slaves; in Mississippi and South Carolina, it was barely less than half, while in Arkansas and Tennessee it was about 25% . The idea that they were "far too expensive for the common family" is wrong. There were just over 395,000 slave owners in the southern states, which sounds like a small quantity for a population of 9,000,000, until you remember that families owned and had power over slaves, not just one individual adult. The slaves may technically have been owned by only one person, but an entire household benefited from that slave. So, yes, technically a specific Confederate soldier might not have owned a slave, but his family very likely did.
As for number of slaves owned by each master, 88% of slave owners owned fewer than 20 slaves, and nearly 50% owned fewer than 5 slaves. To put it another way, a vastly larger percentage of Confederate families owned slaves, than the percentage of modern families who own stocks.
You might find this interesting:

You must be registered to see the links

 

[DigDug69]

Yes, exactly my point. When "poverty level" is synonymous with "can't even afford a slave", it kind of suggests they're pretty commonplace.


Cars are not cheap, and require maintenance and operating costs, but they're still owned by a vast number of people, and not reserved purely for the wealthy. The wealthy can afford more of them, certainly, but they're still ubiquitous among the common family. How many people do you know who own a car, or more than one?


Syl'anar is not the Confederacy. Both have slavery, and both treat(ed) slaves terribly, and that's where the similarities end; something being true in the Confederacy, does not make it true in Syl'anar.


Again, Syl'anar is not the Confederacy; slaves being too expensive for the common family in the south has no bearing on Syl'anar, no matter how often you repeat it. Asserting "it was true for the Confederacy, and therefore must be true in Syl'anar" is not a compelling argument. We know that some slaves are definitley owned by corporations and businesses, but we also know they're commonplace enough that random citizens can purchase them off the internet.
One of the earliest events in the game is Two Tie Guy approaching a random person on the street (the MC) and asking if he'd like to come to a slave auction on the beach; if slave owners can confidently presume that random people on the street can afford a slave, then they're probably fairly commonplace. And how much is he selling those slaves for? 200-400 syls. They're cheap as chips.

Then you need to study history.
Both the Confederacy And Syl'anar were strongly tied to slavery.
It's is historically documented that the Confederacy was able to keep prices lower on Cotton and other agricultural products because of slavery.
The lower prices made it easier for them to sell at lower prices, and still make a killing in profits.
Take away the slavery.
Require them to have to pay people to do the same jobs that the slaves did, and the prices will have to go way up, which would have made it very hard for them to compete in the European markets because of shipping costs, and they would lose out on the higher profits.

Syl'anar uses slave labor, and just like the confederacy, it is cheaper to use slaves, than to pay workers an hourly wage.
Pay the workers, and the prices go up.
Pay them enough or they can form Unions and strike, which would make the costs of doing business go up even higher.
If the prices go up high enough, then foreign markets may find it cheaper to buy from local to them competitors, and profits go down.
If it gets bad enough, the businesses will start to try to move to overseas locations, and when that happens, Syl'anar loses revenue.
Unlike the Confederacy, most of Syl'anars business is not agricultural, so the businesses can pack up and go to where the customers are, and open new factories.
That at least would cut out the cost of shipping overseas, and help raise their profits slightly, but not to the levels it would have been with a slave workforce.

Cars are not a luxury in most parts of the U.S. and many other places.
Mass transit is often very limited, or requires traveling for miles, just to catch a train.
For example. For me to travel to a city that is about thirty minutes away by car, I have to catch one bus to another town, which stops roughly a dozen times on the way to that town.
That town is not really on the way to the city.
There I have to leave that bus, and had to wait about 45 minutes for the bus going to that city, which which also stopped numerous times along the way.
Then I had to take a cab across town to the location of the courthouse where I was dreading being chosen for Jury duty.
Altogether it took me close to 3 hours to travel the distance that I can drive in my car in just about 30 minutes.
My car blew the alternator the day before (a Sunday night), and I had to be at the courthouse by 9am Monday.

Cars are far more of a necessity, slaves are a luxury, except for situations like caring for disabled people, and the elderly.

 

[Quetzzz]

Both the Confederacy And Syl'anar were strongly tied to slavery.

They would be more similar if colonizers had conquered Africa and enslaved everyone there. This didn't happen, so you can't draw the same conclusions either.

 

[DigDug69]

They would be more similar if colonizers had conquered Africa and enslaved everyone there. This didn't happen, so you can't draw the same conclusions either.

That makes no sense.
There was no real market for them to sell to in Africa.
There were not many cities in Africa at that time.
Mostly it was villages and jungle.
The market was in Europe, but Europe had the wrong climate for growing cotton and tobacco.
Moving to where the market was, was not an option for the southern farmers growing that stuff.

Which is why I said this in my last post.
" Unlike the Confederacy, most of Syl'anars business is not agricultural, so the businesses can pack up and go to where the customers are, and open new factories. "
Climate determines where the crops grow, so they had no option to move, but the Syl'anar tech companies would have no problem packing up and moving, if it meant better profits.
Other nations did have cotton growers, like India, but the weather was not as favorable as the weather conditions in the south, so the cotton was of a lower quality than southern cotton.

 

[Corvus Belli]

Then you need to study history.

You being wrong does not mean I need to study history, chief.

Both the Confederacy And Syl'anar were strongly tied to slavery.

I didn't say otherwise. I said the similarities weren't much deeper than "both benefit financially from slavery." They're different places with different economies, and different cultures. It does not automatically follow that "since X was true in the Confederacies economy, then it must also be true in Syl'anar's economy."

Syl'anar uses slave labor, and just like the confederacy, it is cheaper to use slaves, than to pay workers an hourly wage.
Pay the workers, and the prices go up.

Again, I didn't say otherwise. "Both benefit from slavery in a material way" does not mean "both are the same." Which part of this are you having difficulty with?
And again; Two Tie Guy was confident that a random passerby would be able to purchase a slave. True or false? I'll answer for you, it's true. If someone can presume that "random dude #45648" can afford a slave, then they cannot be priced outside the financial means of the average person.

Cars are not a luxury in most parts of the U.S. and many other places.

And house elves are likely viewed as a necessity in Syl'anar. I mean, what? You expect people to spend multiple hours of their own lives sweeping, dusting, tidying, making beds, doing laundry, ironing clothes, cleaning bathrooms, grocery shopping, cooking, cleaning dishes and the kitchen, and all those other things that are elf work? Again, when "can't even afford a slave of our own" is a synonym for "complete poverty", then it stands to reason that the average household is in fact able to afford a house elf.

For example. For me to travel to a city that is about thirty minutes away by car, I have to catch one bus to another town, which stops roughly a dozen times on the way to that town.
Altogether it took me close to 3 hours to travel the distance that I can drive in my car in just about 30 minutes.

So a car is a tremendous convenience, and one you dislike having to do without, but not actually a necessity? Since you were in fact able to get to the courthouse without your car. It simply would have been far easier, and more convenient for you, to have a car that day. Kind of like how convenient it is for a Syl'anar household to have a house elf, then?

 

[DigDug69]

You being wrong does not mean I need to study history, chief.


I didn't say otherwise. I said the similarities weren't much deeper than "both benefit financial from slavery."


Again, I didn't say otherwise. "Both benefit from slavery in a material way" does not mean "both are the same." Which part of this are you having difficulty with?

My last post on this.
If you go back and look at my posts, you will see that I said that they were "ALMOST" or "NEARLY" identical, not that they were identical.

Have fun, but I am growing bored with this.

 

[Corvus Belli]

My last post on this.
If you go back and look at my posts, you will see that I said that they were "ALMOST" or "NEARLY" identical, not that they were identical.

But they're not "NEARLY identical." They are, in fact, quite different. Simply put, you are wrong. The end.

 

[TheDevian]

I didn't read everything, not enough time, but a couple points, sorry if I missed where they were mentioned...

The issue is that even if they can be bred quickly, it takes over a century before an elf is the equivalent of a 10 year old human. Any elf born since the most recent slave uprisng is still a child, even if they were born the day after the uprising ended.
How quickly you can produce an elf, and how quickly you can produce an elf capable of being used for thewir labour, are different things. On the other hand, a robot is good to go the moment it rolls off the assembly line; they can be put to work from day 1, while an elf that you bred might be "work capable" when your great grandchildren are old enough to vote.

This was (at least at one point), why they were pushing the half elf slaves, and don't really care about the full elves, and why they have rights, and the half elves don't.

Yes, exactly my point. When "poverty level" is synonymous with "can't even afford a slave", it kind of suggests they're pretty commonplace.

Ashley's family had one because the state gave her to them, as a from of child care for the poor, the idea being that the parents can both go work, and their kids will still be cared for. This is why they lost her when Ashley moved out, or turned 18, or something like that (something that really upset her father).

That said, IIRC, the cheapest slaves are around 500 syls, which is about $3500us. While not the most affordable thing, with a loan, or payment plan, it is within reason for all but the poorest of households. It would be like any other major appliance. Anyone from lower middle class on up should be able to afford at least one. If you can own a washing machine, buy a big screen tv, or something like that, then you could get one, but you do still need to support them, food, room and board, etc. Like maintenance on some other equipment.

But you know, it could be worse, think about what it would be like if we had Rosie instead of our Cynetic maid.


No thanks, I don't want a BJ anyway, thanks for the offer...

 

[Corvus Belli]

I didn't read everything, not enough time, but a couple points, sorry if I missed where they were mentioned...This was (at least at one point), why they were pushing the half elf slaves, and don't really care about the full elves, and why they have rights, and the half elves don't.

True, but half-elves still mature at about 1/7th the rate of a human. So instead of it taking 270 years for them to become the equivalnet of an 18 year old, it only takes 135 years. That's a notable reduction, but it doesn't really address the whole "takes longer than an entire human life span for them to mature" issue.

That said, IIRC, the cheapest slaves are around 500 syls, which is about $3500us. While not the most affordable thing, with a loan, or payment plan, it is within reason for all but the poorest of households. It would be like any other major appliance. Anyone from lower middle class on up should be able to afford at least one. If you can own a washing machine, buy a big screen tv, or something like that, then you could get one, but you do still need to support them, food, room and board, etc. Like maintenance on some other equipment.

Exactly my point. They're not priced outside the range of an average family, and they provide a notable benefit in terms of convenience for that family, but with monthly operating costs; kind of like a car, which is why I think cars work as a decent comparison. An initial upfront cost that's achievable for people on a lower income after a few months saving or a decent payment plan (and is less than the monthly disposable income for those with well-paying jobs), and then a vastly smaller monthly maintenance cost (food costs, primarily), and you never need to do any housework ever again.
They're also less than 500 syls. At the beach auction, you see three elves being sold, the cheapest of whom was priced at a starting bid of 200 syls, and ultimately sold for 320 (I think).

Let's try this for example; how many people in this thread would be willing to pay a $3500 one-off cost and then food costs every month, to be able to have a real-life Lin living with them, with all the benefits that entails? I'm gonna go out on a limb and say a lot of people would call that a bargain, in both the real world, and in Syl'anar.

 

[Quetzzz]

No thanks, I don't want a BJ anyway, thanks for the offer...

Oh c'mon... You haven't lived until you've gotten a BJ from a vacuum cleaner at least once.

 

[TheDevian]

True, but half-elves still mature at about 1/7th the rate of a human. So instead of it taking 270 years for them to become the equivalnet of an 18 year old, it only takes 135 years. That's a notable reduction, but it doesn't really address the whole "takes longer than an entire human life span for them to mature" issue.

Some, yes, but some, like Maria and Hana, age at the same rate as a human, at least in their early years.

Exactly my point. They're not priced outside the range of an average family, and they provide a notable benefit in terms of convenience for that family, but with monthly operating costs; kind of like a car, which is why I think cars work as a decent comparison. An initial upfront cost that's achievable for people on a lower income after a few months saving or a decent payment plan (and is less than the monthly disposable income for those with well-paying jobs), and then a vastly smaller monthly maintenance cost (food costs, primarily), and you never need to do any housework ever again.
They're also less than 500 syls. At the beach auction, you see three elves being sold, the cheapest of whom was priced at a starting bid of 200 syls, and ultimately sold for 320 (I think).

Let's try this for example; how many people in this thread would be willing to pay a $3500 one-off cost and then food costs every month, to be able to have a real-life Lin living with them, with all the benefits that entails? I'm gonna go out on a limb and say a lot of people would call that a bargain, in both the real world, and in Syl'anar.

Yeah, you can't blame the people at the bottom from doing what they can to make their lives better, in whatever way is socially acceptable. Most people are not going to rock the boat, they only want their own piece of the pie. It comes down to the people in charge, the people who rule the government, the church, and schools.

The androids have a lot higher per unit cost, but they have a much lower operation cost, keep them charged, turn them off when not in use, store them in a closet. Enough solar panels or something, all you need to do is replace any parts that might wear out.

What you need to change a system like this is a strong leader, to make the tough decisions, and a lot of work to change the minds of the masses. Impactful leaders don't follow trends, they don't go with the flow, or listen to focus groups, or worry about themselves. The best leaders do what it right, no matter the cost to them, or anyone who doesn't have their people's best interests at heart. And no matter what most people in Syl'anar might believe...

​

 

[Corvus Belli]

Some, yes, but some, like Maria and Hana, age at the same rate as a human, at least in their early years.

The former is half-dark elf, so 3.5 times the lifespan of a human (dark elves have half the lifespan of common elves, and half-dark elves have half that lifespan, which works out at about 3.5 times the lifespan of a human) and apparently mature at the same rate as a human, up to a point (but will likely still live to be over 200). The latter has an unusal combination of genetic heritage, combining human, common elf, and high elf ancestry. Runey said that combination resulted in a reduced lifespan than would be expected for a half-elf, roughly comparable to a half-dark elf.
So, in theory, the best bet would be to breed huge numbers of half-dark elves, but you'll still be waiting over a decade before they're useful as slaves.

 

[IAmNotEvil]

Spoiler: some thoughts about the church

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

 

[Quetzzz]

Spoiler: some thoughts about the church

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

I think this game strikes a good balance between the corruption of an institution and dissenting voices from within. While playing, I often got confused about what the stance of the church on slavery was, until the current end-game.
It is interesting that there's actual proof of miracles and supernatural activity in the Harem Hotel world. Though it still remains a mystery what the motivation of these supernatural creatures is. It's clear they don't like Elves, which makes me wonder if they're old/banished enemies of the Seldarine.

 

[TheDevian]

The former is half-dark elf, so 3.5 times the lifespan of a human (dark elves have half the lifespan of common elves, and half-dark elves have half that lifespan, which works out at about 3.5 times the lifespan of a human) and apparently mature at the same rate as a human, up to a point (but will likely still live to be over 200). The latter has an unusal combination of genetic heritage, combining human, common elf, and high elf ancestry. Runey said that combination resulted in a reduced lifespan than would be expected for a half-elf, roughly comparable to a half-dark elf.
So, in theory, the best bet would be to breed huge numbers of half-dark elves, but you'll still be waiting over a decade before they're useful as slaves.

A decade or two is not that long in the greater scheme. At least, not if you are thinking big picture.
Note that dark elves are also the horniest, maybe because they need to breed more than the others, but it works out well for their plans.

Add to that the fact that by the time any of the problems come from this, the people who are in charge will be long dead, and it will be some else's problem.

Spoiler: some thoughts about the church

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

I agree, Delilah is horrible, she is one of the main reasons it took me more than a week to manage to finish that scene. She is one of the top ones on my list of people I want to spank in this game.

Yeah, ever since we 'adopted' Sylvia, I have been pushing for us to learn the language, I hope one day we will finally take the time to do it. It would give us a lot of options, and it just makes sense, it could be a Maria event, since she would want to learn too, given her situation.

Remember, this is not Christianity in this game (or any Abrahamic religion), even if there are some similarities to it and other real world religions. The world in this game is a dark, exaggerated picture, based on tropes and other examples of extremists of all types. We have to be careful talking about real world religions here, it is only allowed when using it to relate to the game, but if you do want to discuss it outside of the game related aspects, feel free to send me a pm sometime.

I think this game strikes a good balance between the corruption of an institution and dissenting voices from within. While playing, I often got confused about what the stance of the church on slavery was, until the current end-game.
It is interesting that there's actual proof of miracles and supernatural activity in the Harem Hotel world. Though it still remains a mystery what the motivation of these supernatural creatures is. It's clear they don't like Elves, which makes me wonder if they're old/banished enemies of the Seldarine.

Well, we don't know for sure how real the supernatural elements are, or if they are just another form of technology, it is hard to even say where the fairies' abilities land on that scale. What we do know is that any technology that is advanced enough, would seem like magic to someone who does not understand it.

 

[Quetzzz]

Well, we don't know for sure how real the supernatural elements are, or if they are just another form of technology, it is hard to even say where the fairies' abilities land on that scale. What we do know is that any technology that is advanced enough, would seem like magic to someone who does not understand it.

Magic vs technology is beside the point in this case, I think. We, the player, experienced what Autumn did. It gives a lot of credence to (at least the origins) of her religion. It just means that the people who undergo certain rituals, get proof of the existence of whatever they worship. They'll accept it as proof of that, even if, in reality, it's aliens communicating through crystals and microwaves. The 4 staves are probably very convincing for most people as well. The MC is in a unique position, with his knowledge about magical stones, having more context to potentially explain their existence.

 

[TheDevian]

Magic vs technology is beside the point in this case, I think. We, the player, experienced what Autumn did. It gives a lot of credence to (at least the origins) of her religion. It just means that the people who undergo certain rituals, get proof of the existence of whatever they worship. They'll accept it as proof of that, even if, in reality, it's aliens communicating through crystals and microwaves. The 4 staves are probably very convincing for most people as well. The MC is in a unique position, with his knowledge about magical stones, having more context to potentially explain their existence.

We did not witness what she did, we witnessed her doing it, that's not the same thing. lol.

What she saw, could well have been another type of fairy and whatnot (they just have bigger crystals). You are right that there is some validity to them, more than most today here, but calling it 'magic' might be an overstatement. Hard to say from what we know so far, but I assume we will find out one of these days. The real question is what are we going to do with that information when we get it?

 

[Quetzzz]

We did not witness what she did, we witnessed her doing it, that's not the same thing. lol.

The player witnessed what she experienced, the MC witnessed her actions. However, if what we (the player) witnessed isn't of the "unreliable narrator"-variety, then we can take it at face value, same for Autumn's interpretation of it. (Although Autumn said to Hazel that she didn't have a choice for picking Freedom. I'm not sure if this is a lie, an "it immediately felt right"-figure-of-speech, or a mistake.)
That said, if "magic" is governed by natural laws, it's conceivable that technology can be used to manipulate it, pretty much what you and Arthur say. So I agree that there isn't really a distinction at all, at least from a secular point of view.

 

[TheDevian]

The player witnessed what she experienced, the MC witnessed her actions. However, if what we (the player) witnessed isn't of the "unreliable narrator"-variety, then we can take it at face value, same for Autumn's interpretation of it. (Although Autumn said to Hazel that she didn't have a choice for picking Freedom. I'm not sure if this is a lie, an "it immediately felt right"-figure-of-speech, or a mistake.)
That said, if "magic" is governed by natural laws, it's conceivable that technology can be used to manipulate it, pretty much what you and Arthur say. So I agree that there isn't really a distinction at all, at least from a secular point of view.

Even taking it at face value, it can easily be explained away with what we know about the world, the people who live there, and their 'magic' crystals. That is one of the largest crystals we have ever seen, and that tree is basically growing out of it. It could easily be another species of fairies, or something similar, who use the power of that crystal to deceive humans and elves and keep their society safe. They saw what the humans did to the elves, they saw what the elves did to them/their cousins, and they decided to say fuck it, and use their abilities to make the humans and elves think they are gods, in order to keep themselves safe.

 

[Quetzzz]

Even taking it at face value, it can easily be explained away with what we know about the world, the people who live there, and their 'magic' crystals. That is one of the largest crystals we have ever seen, and that tree is basically growing out of it. It could easily be another species of fairies, or something similar,

Sure, I agree with all of that. But regardless of how we can explain it away, or how the story/game might do it... At this moment, for Autumn and Hazel, it's a profound religious experience that gives them proof of their beliefs. Even if they're being manipulated by that belief.

They saw what the humans did to the elves, they saw what the elves did to them/their cousins, and they decided to say fuck it, and use their abilities to make the humans and elves think they are gods, in order to keep themselves safe.

If I'm not mistaking, the religion predates the discovery of the Elves. That said, I do think that these entities are worrying about their own safety right now, which is their motivation for genociding the Elves.