Basically, any story where the protagonist is designed as a self-insert and the other characters exist mainly to trigger their feelings, emotions, etc.
I would argue the opposite. In a NTR manga you're right that depth for the bad guy isn't typically not a good idea as it over complicates things. However this is a video game, it's not an 22-28 page comic book chapter that can be "read" in a few minutes. Depth is necessary for as many characters as possible or it's going to get boring. The reveal that the duke knew and was in love with Rose's mom does an effective job of ramping up his villainy. Being willing to betray that emotional connection to the queen to force her daughter into a situation where she either has sex with a fat old bastard more than twice her age or watches her nation fall to piracy and foreign invasion is pretty fucking evil. And that's before considering the facts that we learn about the duke's actions in update 16. The duke's depth makes him a better bad guy, it's why he's the villain and Ulrod is just sidekick.
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I don't think there is anything wrong with a villain having some depth, but I do think there is a dangerous tipping point where spending too much time on trying to make them seem complex can actually undermine their role in the story, if it gets too bogged down with milking the villain for sympathy points in order to feel like a masterful multi-layered morality play.
Two positive examples:
Two positive examples:
- The Duke: His backstory of being in love with the queen isn't withheld as some big tragic reveal. It just comes up naturally and explains his behavior, but doesn't feel like the story wants you to actually feel bad for him as much as it is just walking you through the emotional process of a self-justifying narcissist. If anything, it just adds some context to his manipulation of Rose, that he is using this opportunity to live out those unfulfilled fantasies he had for her mother.
- Edwyr: Despite having some problems with him in Chapter 2, I think Edwyr is about as far as you can push the limit before it snaps. Looking at his father, it's no surprise that he turned out to be such a little psycho. You can feel a little bad for him in the grand scheme of things, but the story still largely holds him responsible for his own actions because he does plenty of awful things on his own without Zeno's stamp of approval.
- Zeno: In the early parts of Chapter 2, I would have put him in the same category as the Duke when the explanation was just traced back to his father being a huge asshole and Zeno having a major "second son" complex. But then the game attempted to put a hat on top of a hat with the backstory of Edwyr's mother abandoning them as the moment that truly broke him. It was just so excessively maudlin and self-serious that it retroactively robbed him of any menace, turning him from an abusive tyrant into something more like a sulky teenager throwing a tantrum and destroying his own room after his girlfriend broke up with them.
- Ulrod: Just like with Zeno, the framing is key when it comes to adding depth to a character. You get the big reveal of his connection to Cyanna much earlier than Zeno's backstory... but unlike Zeno, Ulrod is introduced as the most unambiguously evil character in the whole series. Worse than the literal demons of Chapter 1, because unlike them, he just forces himself onto Sergeant Alys right out of the gate and empowers his men to do the same while Leto is still unconscious. Even the butler in Chapter 1 has the semi-excuse of being magically influenced before he crosses that line. And then later on, you get his sob story about being enslaved and forced to fight as a gladiator, but it rings hollow because you've already seen him inflict significant trauma on someone else like it's no big deal, so instead of adding anything, the attempt to force some extra depth into his character just replaces what was already there with this whiny, childish kind of hypocrisy, that he believes Cyanna is supposed to inherently feel sorry for what he has suffered through because of a choice that she didn't make but that he is also allowed to do whatever he wants to other people with zero remorse.
Everyone has their own preferences and perspectives on history. This is not a reason for criticism. You are not obliged to understand my opinion. It was merely my personal point of view and support for the opinion expressed by the previous commenter.
To put it simply, ugly bastards don't need a sad story in their pasts. Its much better for them just to be douchebags, because hey, they fuck your sweethearts not because of past traumas, but because they can.
Since 99% of NTR victims-protags suffer from "indecisiveness", its better to show why the antagonists are more bold, imho, than actually give them a sad backstory or justification.
Since 99% of NTR victims-protags suffer from "indecisiveness", its better to show why the antagonists are more bold, imho, than actually give them a sad backstory or justification.
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With this it is confirmed, the colors of the flames of the statues in the Duke's office are the same as the hair color of the girls that appear in Leto's dreams while they show him the visions of the girls close to him with the antagonists, which assures me even more that like Zeno in HC2, the Duke is being helped by ancient entities, and surely they were the ones who gave him the knowledge to create the necklaces, the question that remains is what they have to do with it or how they are connected to Leto XD
Theories!!!, come on guys don't let me down
Ulrod went from a threatening Darth Vader-type of villain to a petulant edgy teenager whose backstory isn't sappy and tragic enough to get any bitches.
I don't know if any amount of back story could actually help Ulrod. He's so consistently pathetic that the only way to buff him up would be to just dial up his vile behaviour, which I doubt would be enough. I so badly want someone to just cut in and steal Cyanna from him just so he can go simp in the corner.Ulrod went from a threatening Darth Vader-type of villain to a petulant edgy teenager whose backstory isn't sappy and tragic enough to get any bitches.
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I mean...sure, but i think that it's not necessarily as simple as you make it out to be, cause keep in mind that Rose is not JUST the daughter of the woman he loves, she's also the daughter of the man he hates, and so while what you're saying is still technically true, that betraying the emotional connection that he has towards the queen is evil, i feel like his willingness to force Rose into that situation isn't coming from a place of pure evil, it's coming from his resentment towards the King, at least to some degree.
I think that throughout the events of HC3, the Duke's hatred towards the King is far greater than his love towards the Queen, and so in his eyes Rose is not the daughter of the love of his life, she's the daughter of his...nemesis ? Not tryna be dramatic, i just couldn't find a better word.
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Honestly, this is a good catch! I feel like I never would've connected those dots just from the colors alone. Though I'm not really sure how much room there is to speculate because everything with the cult is still so vague. The only thing we can probably say for certain is that Leto is connected to those two entities from his little encounter with the artifact on the boat, during the prologue (which isn't even a guarantee, since the big reveal of Chapter 2 was that Noah had been connected to the evil spirit since he was born)... and that they have something to do with the Peacekeepers because the cult's plan only involves two things: finding the artifact, and filling up the Duke's special amulet along with the three lesser amulets. But they don't seem integral to reactivating the Peacekeepers, since they temporarily turned back on during the pirate ambush.
Or maybe they are completely separate from the Peacekeepers? Like that is only what the cult is concerned with, while the Duke is consorting with those two beings entirely on his own, as part of a personal scheme to betray the rest of the cult at some point. They gave him the knowledge of how to create the amulet, but just so he could use it as a bargaining chip to gain power.
At the end of the day, I think there just aren't enough pieces of the puzzle yet to make any confident guesses.
Quite literally the Darth Vader problem! That you can draw a straight line between every step and say "yes, this makes logical sense that a character could start out this way and end up like that." But that on an emotional level, more backstory isn't always better for a character, because you have one of the most iconic and visually striking villains in all of cinema... and knowing that he started out as a goofy little kid with a terrible haircut doesn't add anything of value to the scene of him choking out one of his officers for insubordination.Ulrod went from a threatening Darth Vader-type of villain to a petulant edgy teenager whose backstory isn't sappy and tragic enough to get any bitches.
There is nothing fundamentally incoherent about Ulrod's story, but coherent does not automatically translate to good or entertaining. Trying to force depth onto him when he had such a brutally simple concept did nothing but muddy the waters. The more you learn about him, the less interesting he seems because the open question of "how does a man become like this?" is way more interesting than answering it with "oh, he sacrificed himself to protect a girl that he liked before he was even old enough to understand what love means and then spent years being tortured."
... and while I'm ranting about Ulrod, I am suddenly thinking about how much of a shame it is that Cyanna's arc is starting to line up a little too closely with Celis for my liking. How early on in Chapter 2, you saw this physical rivalry of Celis being stronger than Edwyr in a way that clearly frustrated him, but that slowly disappears as their relationship shifts into the "you love Noah, so you should practice having sex with me for his sake" path that completely sidestepped their initial dynamic. And at the point we are in Chapter 3, it feels like the idea of Cyanna being a competent fighter who could potentially stand up to Ulrod is already a distant memory.
Update 8: They are trapped in an unwinnable situation, but she does get into a fight with some of the pirates when Ulrod has his panic attack. This is the most recent example of her being strong and capable.
Update 11: The banquet, where her abilities are completely irrelevant.
Update 14: The undercover mission, which intentionally forces her to act weak. A great idea on paper, but the quest doesn't do anything meaningful with that internal conflict and it fails to stand out because the pattern has been too consistent.
Update 17: Beach episode, which... doesn't sound like it will play up that aspect of her character outside of maybe some light teasing about how uncomfortable she looks in a bikini.
You see, the Tavern owner is a fat whoremongering slob because kids called him a fart-knocking faggot and his mom twitted his tipples.
I don't draw a similarity between Cyanna and Celis personally, if only because Celis' corruption started in such a stupid fashion whereas Cyanna was a victim of guilt and emotional abuse. I can at least take Cyanna's fall somewhat seriously even if I find Ulrod to be just an absolutely pathetic chode of a character because she actually feels like she's still dealing with someone who has shown himself to be a cruel, abusive, violent rapist. Celis basically showed herself to be stupid and weak by falling for an obvious trick to get things started and then started "practicing" as if her obviously virginal and uptight foster brother would need her to have "skills".
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Even with Celis' storyline being very contrived, I found her a much more interesting character compared to Cyanna.
Of the four, I find Cyanna to be the least compelling. Her storyline is very predictable.
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I don't like Cyanna's content for two reasons, neither of which are due to how predictable it is. The vast majority of the storylines in the HC games are predictable to me and I don't consider that a problem. Predictable isn't necessarily bad so long as the content is good and, for the most part, it is good. Case in point, update 17 is probably going to feature a decent amount of Leto being an absolute blockhead and managing to miss Rose and Cyanna's slutty behaviour even though he's going to be in the thick of it as they fuck around him in public places and behind nearby closed doors. It's predictable... but that's not a bad thing.
The biggest problem I have with Cyanna's content is that it's depressing. Unlike Rose, Haylen, and Lily, Cyanna is the only one being actively victimized by her partner. Yes, the duke and the magic shop owner are manipulating Rose and Lily, but the manner in which they're doing it makes it feel less overtly abusive and cruel. Ulrod, however, is verbally abusive, borderline physically abusive, and extremely emotionally abusive. To this Cyanna responds with a downcast and sullen attitude, which is understandable, but does not make for fun to watch porn, which sucks since I like her character design a lot.
The second reason is that Ulrod is just an absolute dipstick. He lumbers around all "I AM THE BIGGEST ASSHOLE IN THE GAME... Now excuse me while I act like a petulant child because the girl I've been simping for since I was 6 is in love with someone else." and he never gets better. He's a jealous, petty, immature, tryhard manchild.
The biggest problem I have with Cyanna's content is that it's depressing. Unlike Rose, Haylen, and Lily, Cyanna is the only one being actively victimized by her partner. Yes, the duke and the magic shop owner are manipulating Rose and Lily, but the manner in which they're doing it makes it feel less overtly abusive and cruel. Ulrod, however, is verbally abusive, borderline physically abusive, and extremely emotionally abusive. To this Cyanna responds with a downcast and sullen attitude, which is understandable, but does not make for fun to watch porn, which sucks since I like her character design a lot.
The second reason is that Ulrod is just an absolute dipstick. He lumbers around all "I AM THE BIGGEST ASSHOLE IN THE GAME... Now excuse me while I act like a petulant child because the girl I've been simping for since I was 6 is in love with someone else." and he never gets better. He's a jealous, petty, immature, tryhard manchild.
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Obviously all the stories are predictable. We all know where they go ultimately and what the vibe will be. What I miss with Cyanna is that there's so little depth to her conflict. She wants to protect Leto and that's... it. There is no back and forth, no struggle, no moral dilemma. She is passive. She just gives in and goes with the flow. It's very boring to me.
I actually would not mind it being dark(er even) but for that there must be a struggle. She is the one with the most potential to be a fighter and a leader and she acts like sheep. If she were a proper counter weight to Ulrod's comic-villain-schtick it'd make for a much better story.
You're not wrong. Cyanna's story is very skin deep and there's been no hint of it advancing any further. Every other girl has had a wrinkle in their corruption so far. Rose's thinking is slowly aligning with the duke's, she's not necessarily going to turn evil but the duke's cynicism is starting to infect her. Lily was the most active participant in her own corruption and was the only one to actually kick things off by using it to her advantage. Haylen's content has a bit of an impregnation kink on occasion. The only one who doesn't have that is Cyanna. Even without providing more story depth to her scenes with Ulrod a kink of some kind would certainly help, maybe a public sex once since she's so obsessed with projecting a strong, upstanding image? Maybe she starts taking a more dominant role in her scenes with Ulrod? Dunno, but it'd definitely be nice if there was more to it.
One of the problems, I think, is that because she's one of two women involved in the main story she is constantly outshone by Rose. The split perspective scenes have also done her no favours in that regard.
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Yep, exacly what i was gonna say until i saw you end your post with it. That is, in my opinion, without a doubt Cyanna's greatest weakness/problem, split pers. scenes included.
In earlier Updates it was a little bit better whenever it was just Leto, Cyanna and Ulrod in like a military camp or whatever, but overall her contribution to the plot is...negligible at best, and the reason why you don't feel the same way about Haylen and Lily is because, despite being side characters, they do have their own individual storylines in which they're at the center of all that is happening, and Cyanna just doesn't have that, i wanna say that she's softlocked behind Rose but even that's not true, she's just...there, the best way i could put it right now is that Cyanna to Rose is what Naevyr is to Haylen, it's Haylen's story, Naevyr is just part of that story, nothing more.
Makes you wonder if it really is a good idea to make every character in HC4 a Main Character.
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The only thing i can think of that could improve Cyanna's corruption as a whole at this point is to make her a complete slut as soon as possible, which sounds extremely bland and surface level in an NTR game, especially in a Henteria game (just to clarify, i'm not saying that HC is god's gift to humanity, i'm just saying that 8 out 10 NTR games are cliché and are poorly written), but besides the point that Oriandu was making, that Rose overshadows Cyanna at every given opportunity, another thing that he said was that you just can't help but feel extremely bad for Cyanna, to the point where you actually don't want to see her scenes, and that is something that you just shouldn't have in an NTR game.
In many of her earlier scenes (around Update 8-9-10), Cyanna was berating herself constantly, or not even berating HERSELF necessarily, rather she was asking Ulrod to berate her, and those are the only times that i can think of where i wasn't feeling bad for Cyanna, and so i guess what i'm saying is that i really don't think that at this point Cyanna's story can be improved a whole lot, but her scenes definitely can, and so i guess i'd rather see a bland story with very good scenes than a slightly less bland story where in half of the scenes i feel too bad for Cyanna to actually enjoy...just about anything about what i'm seeing.
In many of her earlier scenes (around Update 8-9-10), Cyanna was berating herself constantly, or not even berating HERSELF necessarily, rather she was asking Ulrod to berate her, and those are the only times that i can think of where i wasn't feeling bad for Cyanna, and so i guess what i'm saying is that i really don't think that at this point Cyanna's story can be improved a whole lot, but her scenes definitely can, and so i guess i'd rather see a bland story with very good scenes than a slightly less bland story where in half of the scenes i feel too bad for Cyanna to actually enjoy...just about anything about what i'm seeing.
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I think it could be a very helpful change... on the specific condition that the game is able to just naturally interweave them as part of the story instead of breaking things up so artificially. That if we didn't have the dedicated Lily -> Haylen sidequest months in between every single step of the story, it would be a lot easier to juggle the characters from update to update. Instead of having it be "this month is Rose, next month is Cyanna", the story just unfolds and characters get content whenever it makes sense because you don't have a mandatory 3-4 month gap if you have an update where Cyanna doesn't get anything important to do. But as long as she is forcibly paired up with Rose in the same month, it's basically inevitable that she will get the short end of the stick because Rose's arc is so much more involved with pushing the game's central mystery forward.
Though personally, feeling bad for Cyanna hasn't been the issue for me at all because I'm an emotional masochist who prefers when NTR is super bleak and depressing. I really like her character, and I want to feel bad for her. But everything with Ulrod is just this surface-level "I'm a bad man because I'm calling you a whore while we fuck!" approach, so it rarely ever manages to scratch that itch for me. My main problem is just that her interactions with Ulrod play out the same way over and over again in isolation behind closed doors, and then they go right back to their usual dynamic like nothing has changed.