VN Ren'Py Hillside [v0.16.1] [DarkBlue]

[operamini]

You don't understand. Self defense is not an EXCUSE. Because the MC acted in self defense against an attack with a deadly weapon by an attacker with the stated intent to kill, he is with in his rights to use whatever force he chooses, and can not be charged with murder. As stated a couple posts back, the MC has no legal obligation to spare Carter.

Theres no predicting what the Hillside legal system will decide to do, but in the real world the MC would not be charged with a crime and any attempt to do so would be set aside by a court.

Maybe excuse wasn't the right term, English isn't my mother tongue.

Still i dont think he has the legal defense of self-defense, not when the court has access to all we seen.
Hillside is basically Bootleg Hollywood, so lets check California's law on this:

A defendant is said to have legally acted in self-defense under California state law if he/she:

1. reasonably believed that he/she was in “imminent danger” of suffering bodily injury,
2. reasonably believed that the immediate use of force was necessary to defend against that reasonable fear of imminent peril, and
3. used no more force than was reasonably necessary to defend against that danger.1

If the above are true, then:

• a defendant has a valid legal defense, and
• is not liable for a crime.

Which imo because carter was disarmed and in a choke hold he fails the third and potentially the first requirement
at which point he may still call for the Flannel doctrine so he gets a less severe charge.

6.4. Murder, Penal Code 187 PC
Penal Code 187 says that murder is the intentional killing of another with

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. Malice aforethought is defined as an unlawful intention to kill or acting with a reckless disregard for human life.

If a person is in imminent danger of being killed, he/she may take whatever measures that are necessary to prevent the killing. Deadly force is obviously expected. The force will be excused if reasonable and not excessive to prevent harm.

The Flannel doctrine often shows up in murder cases where:

1. the defendant is charged with murder (per PC 187), and
2. the accused says he/she committed the murder because he/she was acting in self-defense.

The doctrine is also referred to as “

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.” It applies when the accused kills another person based on an honest but unreasonable belief in the need to use deadly force in self-defense.

To go into effect, the flannel doctrine requires a showing that:

1. the accused believed that he/she was in imminent peril of being killed or suffering great bodily injury,
2. the accused believed that the immediate use of deadly force was necessary to defend himself/herself, and
3. at least one of these beliefs was unreasonable.21

The doctrine is not really a defense per se, although it applies like a partial defense.

A jury finding that the accused acted in imperfect self-defense results in a charge being reduced from:

• murder (with a possible life in prison sentence)
• to voluntary manslaughter (which is punished with three to eleven years in prison).

You guys might disagree but that's how i see it.

Actually that sort of depends on the context. It says alot about how culture has changed in modern times, that this is even a debate.

What possible moral obligation should I be expected to have to feed, clothe, bathe, medicate, and devote manpower to guarding men who tried to kill me and my friends? Especially in an active conflict? Men whom I have every reason to believe will go right back to trying to kill me and mine if freed?

That's a tough call, morally speaking. The ONLY obligation that comes into play here is a practical one and not a moral one: You would want the other side to treat their POWs as well as you treat your POWs...but that's heavily dependent on an honor system and if the other side is not culturally similar to yours, their idea of honor and their idea of humane conduct could be radically different from yours. the WW2 conflict with Japan is a good example of this....Americans were apalled to discover how their POWs had been treated by the Japanese as various Japanese POW camps were liberated. Starvation, torture, abuse was common.

But many Japanese soldiers of that time considered those who allowed themselves to be captured alive to be the lowest form of cowards and honorless dogs, and resented being forced to guard them and devote vital war resources to them rather than being out in the battlefield with their fellow soldiers. Every bit of food, medicine, and clothing being routed to these "honorless dogs" was food, medicine and clothing that wasn't going to the frontline soldiers who needed them. Every guard stuck in those POW camps was another soldier unable to fight to protect his brothers-in-arms and homeland. That's how they saw it.

Western notions of honor and humane treatment were very different from Eastern notions of honor and humane treatment. They still are today. Which side's "right"? The side that wins, obviously.

Setting that aside, by no reasonable means could Carter be considered a POW so it's moot. He was not remotely helpless. He was in an inferior position, against a superior opponent, sure. But in an active and ongoing struggle, both parties always have a fighting chance. I am not obligated to allow someone who is trying to kill me and those I care about to keep on struggling to do so until they manage to get lucky, or pull out yet another hidden weapon.

Carter is a grown, fit, healthy man who has had at least as much close combat/subdual training as was required to make it through the police academy and has already shown himself to be armed with multiple weapons and shown the will to use them.

You don't get to force a confrontation on someone else and then cry foul when it turns out they're more dangerous than you and willing to use the exact same(or even greater) level of force on you that you were all too happy to use on them when you thought you had the upper hand.

I guess the difference here is that i really don't see Carter as having any chance of escaping or badly hurting the MC when the MC managed to choke hold him.

 

[Chronos169]

Just my few cents...

MC had just a few seconds to made a decision...let him life or...not.
And "what if" Carter becomes a second Chance, even if Agent Fox is on the "good side" she can't guard Carter 24/7 as Prisoner, and "what if" he can escape on the ride from Prisen to the court?

So it was logical (at least for me) he ended a threat, for the people he cares about.

Let not forgive he seems himself as "Killer"...remember what he thinks about himself during the run in the hills with Emma.

And for the sake of the story and relationships...

We are still not on the same level with all of them!

Lucy and Kaylah will be fine about this i guess.
Charlotte...hmmm after the first shock (and a few back and forth talks with others) same, at least the MC is now "free" to become her official Bodyguard.
Emma being told the "truth" why the MC was hired, like others said either she sees him more as missing father figure or more?
And Suzie.... i guess the next chapter we will see a huge step forward from her, also being told what happened (Family dinner maybe).

Just curious if Charlotte will reveal everyone what happened to her and the Danger she was/is.

 

[Bendover885]

You don't understand. Self defense is not an EXCUSE. Because the MC acted in self defense against an attack with a deadly weapon by an attacker with the stated intent to kill, he is with in his rights to use whatever force he chooses, and can not be charged with murder. As stated a couple posts back, the MC has no legal obligation to spare Carter.

Theres no predicting what the Hillside legal system will decide to do, but in the real world the MC would not be charged with a crime and any attempt to do so would be set aside by a court.

Respectfully, use of force in self defense has to be proportional. You can't kill someone if you are shoved. The standard is, 'would a reasonable person perceive an immediate threat of grave bodily harm or death to themselves or others, having exhausted all options, such as retreat?' Unless 'Fake California' passed a Stand Your Ground Law which removes the duty to retreat, that may be where a prosecutor may have a point.

But, as many can see, just as we are getting into the weeds on self-defense, Dev will probably take the explanation that keeps the game focused on the characters, not on niche legal issues.

 

[Ottoeight]

I'm going to sound off a bit about Emma being underage. I personally believe she is a legal adult, albeit an immature one. It is possible that she is intended to be underage or at least play into that fetish, though. She is attending "college" which in the US denotes a 2-year or 4-year postsecondary institution but in the UK can mean more of what people in the states call a prep school. I only bring this up because the game also uses some other UK jargon even though it takes place in a Hollywood, CA knock-off. But even if she is going to a prep school (some of them don't have uniforms) that doesn't mean that she cannot be over 18 if she is in her senior year.

Oh, come on, that's not a college: it's a high school.

Come on, just check the bio stats of characters (main game screen ---> characters) and compare every little things the characters tell about themselves in the game. Emma is 15, and this is why she can't drive (you drive at 16 in the US).

Charlotte is 39 (she turns 40 during the story). Lucy is 34. Suzi is 20. Emma is 15. Every damn detail the Llodys say about themselves during the game ONLY fits IF Emma is 15. She simply can't be 18.

Just remember this: Suzi is 20 and she remembers very well their dad, but Emma tells MC that her dad left them soon after she was born and she doesn't even know him.

 

[NewTricks]

Oh, come on, that's not a college: it's a high school.

Come on, just check the bio stats of characters (main game screen ---> characters) and compare every little things the characters tell about themselves in the game. Emma is 15, and this is why she can't drive (you drive at 16 in the US).

Charlotte is 39 (she turns 40 during the story). Lucy is 34. Suzi is 20. Emma is 15. Every damn detail the Llodys say about themselves during the game ONLY fits IF Emma is 15. She simply can't be 18.

Just remember this: Suzi is 20 and she remembers very well their dad, but Emma tells MC that her dad left them soon after she was born and she doesn't even know him.

You can believe every word of this if you wish. But there is no biological reason why Charlotte couldn't have had two children two years apart when she was 19 and 21. Or even 4-5 years earlier for that matter. Relative youth would also explain why the father was unable or unwilling to take responsibility for them. What is harder to believe is that she became a supermodel after having two kids, but what the hell? Let's suspend our disbelief for the sake of the show. My daughter is 22 and still doesn't drive so Emma not driving is a signifying trait but not an unassailable proof of her age. So you could be right. But it is probably going to have to sit in your headcanon for a while because she has been seen nude and Patreon bucks are on the line. You do have a good point about Suzi, but memory is a funny thing. My dad died when I was seven and my sister, who was an Irish twin, barely remembers him at all even though we were only born 14 months apart and I have many memories of him. My youngest sister, who was only four, also says she has many memories of him. So It differs from person to person. Since we don't know exactly when he left we can only guess. My estimates are no more provable than yours are.

 

[cxx]

charl has sheltered emma so she doesn't know how to drive car or any motored vehicle (bicycle possible but still quite likely that she can't do that either).

 

[Mesmerizet]

Well now that the "Stalker" is beaten, maybe the MC's terminal case of drydick finally gets cured. lol

Though so much has been made of the MC being this hyper-virtuous guy that I have a hard time imagining any scenario that would let him pursue multiple girls simultaneously without it being wildly contradictory to everything else that's happened to this point.

So I imagine soon we'll have to pick a girl(Charlottte or Lucy) and it will lock out the other. Maaaaaaaybe fool around on the side with Kayla or Suzi's girlfriend but again that would feel so counter to everything else that's happened up to now.

I can't possibly envision any scenario at this point for MC to get with Emma that wouldn't A) Feel creepy AF(She acts like a 10 year old and is firmly locked in a daughter/father dynamic with MC), and B) Result in MC needing to hire a bodyguard to protect him from Charlotte/Lucy/Suzi both

Well, hopefully we see some scenes in the next update however I don't think there will be any Char scenes due to the animosity that'll remain after the murder. Part of me feels it's being rushed up.

I had a doubt which I raised a few posts ago. If you're on the Emma route, does she still save the MC's number as "Dad"?
I still just feel uncomfortable af because Emma is literally a 14 y/o from what she looks like.

In any case, the latest update had a part where Kaylah told Charlotte that the MC turned her down. So I think Charlotte route would only be available if you're loyal to her. Harem or any "Dual" endings seem unlikely, at least not any of the endings involving Charlotte.

It would be helpful if those discussing Carter's killing to familiarize yourselves with the definition of murder, which is a legal matter not a moral one. Self defense mitigates a murder charge even if the killing was intentional. Carter assaulted the MC with a deadly weapon and the stated intent to kill him and others immediately present. It is unarguable that the MC acted in self defense and his actions will be judged in that context. The MC is not under any obligation to mitigate the force/violence of his defense under those circumstances. Yes the MC killed Carter. However he committed neither murder, nor manslaughter, nor homicide. The circumstances surrounding Carter's attack means that while the MC was a willing killer, he was not a murderer.

In any event these arguments are all moot. The only person that knows the MCs intent is the MC. All anyone else can testify too is that Carter attacked the MC with a knife and was killed in the struggle as the MC defended himself.

Oh, there's going to be minimal blowback on the MC. He did it in self defense and Carter was corrupt but there's a likely chance it may be exploited for future drama (and next update will deal with what you gotta do with the body, likely they'll just dump it there and leave). Imagine asking Charlotte to give you and Carter's corpse a ride to the closest landfill lmao.

Ahah, true. But I guess Agent Fox is a good girl here. She will probably learn about that "incident" with Carter and use it as leverage to force the MC to cooperate in her plan to catch all the bastards of Hillside, but that's all.

Agent Fox is an interesting character. I do think there'll be an option where we can pick her as an LI. However that might be very far off and might interfere with the Char route I'm going on probs

 

[Ottoeight]

You can believe every word of this if you wish. But there is no biological reason why Charlotte couldn't have had two children two years apart when she was 19 and 21. Or even 4-5 years earlier for that matter. Relative youth would also explain why the father was unable or unwilling to take responsibility for them. What is harder to believe is that she became a supermodel after having two kids, but what the hell? Let's suspend our disbelief for the sake of the show. My daughter is 22 and still doesn't drive so Emma not driving is a signifying trait but not an unassailable proof of her age. So you could be right. But it is probably going to have to sit in your headcanon for a while because she has been seen nude and Patreon bucks are on the line. You do have a good point about Suzi, but memory is a funny thing. My dad died when I was seven and my sister, who was an Irish twin, barely remembers him at all even though we were only born 14 months apart and I have many memories of him. My youngest sister, who was only four, also says she has many memories of him. So It differs from person to person. Since we don't know exactly when he left we can only guess. My estimates are no more provable than yours are.

Man, I just want to believe that you're rebutting just like that, for the sake of it.

We - me, you, everybody - are totally and perfectly aware that the place MC is driving Emma to in the morning is a high school.

 

[Ottoeight]

Agent Fox is an interesting character. I do think there'll be an option where we can pick her as an LI. However that might be very far off and might interfere with the Char route I'm going on probs

Man, you saw her in 1 scene only.

Honestly, I think the story is near the end. I don't think we will see more than 2 more update.

I do remember that DB wrote here that he was planning to complete the game by the end of 2022.

 

[TheCrimsonRevenger]

In any case, the latest update had a part where Kaylah told Charlotte that the MC turned her down. So I think Charlotte route would only be available if you're loyal to her. Harem or any "Dual" endings seem unlikely, at least not any of the endings involving Charlotte.

I accepted Kayla's offer. I dont recall the exact words but I did not get the impression that this closed off the Charlotte route.

It was something along the lines of "Oh no? Maybe this means MC doesn't like me afterall? Or maybe he only accepted her offer because he doesn't think I would ever like him back. Maybe I need to show me that i'm willing?"

So basically Charlotte sort of blames herself for MC accepting Kayla's offer and seems to consider the possibility that she needs to step up to the plate and fight for him if she wants him.

The real test will be when Charlotte realizes that Lucy is in this contest too. I also accepted Lucy's offer to become a couple and hate that there doesn't seem to be any route forward that won't horribly hurt one of them. I'm 'Team Lucy" if it comes down to it. I do think she's hotter that Charlotte visually(especially if she puts her hair back how it was in her modeling days), and it's hard not to feel for her having been used so many times in the past by guys who just wanted a shot at Charlotte EXACTLY the way Zac tried to use Emma. I think losing MC to Charlotte too would destroy her completely, and Lucy doesn't deserve to be destroyed like that. She's awesome.

I feel bad for Charlotte too if she loses out on the first man to make her feel safe after all the abuse she's endured but Lucy got there first.

And if....HUUUUUGE "if"....there is indeed some path to sharing both sisters, I think it would have to come from Lucy. As long as Lucy doesn't feel like she's "losing" to Charlotte again, Lucy might actually be willing to share to finally see her sister happy. As as long as Charlotte understands that going in, she might be open to it too.

Note I don't think either would be cool with a threesome or anything...just that they MIGHT be open to sharing but only if Lucy is "the Alpha female" in the arrangement.

It's a long shot, but the only shot I see if it is to be an option. At least where it's all out in the open and nobody is "cheating". If you don't accept Lucy's initial offer to be a couple I could maybe see her being willing to cheat behind Charlotte's back but that's a stretch too and given the way he's been written so far, I ain't sure the MC would be willing to do that even if Lucy was.

I'm certain both Lucy and Charlotte are firmly off the table if MC touches either Emma or Suzi.

Oh, there's going to be minimal blowback on the MC. He did it in self defense and Carter was corrupt but there's a likely chance it may be exploited for future drama (and next update will deal with what you gotta do with the body, likely they'll just dump it there and leave). Imagine asking Charlotte to give you and Carter's corpse a ride to the closest landfill lmao.

I assume MC will send Charlotte to take Emma home, then call his bartender warbuddy to come help him dispose of the body.

Sidenote: You know you have a true blue ride-or-die friend if they'll drop everything and come help you hide a corpse

MC knows enough by now to know...or at least suspect that Carter is involved with the Sex Slavery Ring, and might reasonably anticipate that if he tries to tell the truth he'll just get setup by other corrupt cops.

Also judging from bits of slang sprinkled throughout this game I believe it's all set in Europe. Britain, most likely. And Europeans don't have nearly the level of respect for self-defense that Americans have. Red/Purple State Americans, at least. So while MC was morally right to kill Carter, it's possible he might still have violated some sort of duty-to-retreat law. A psychotically unjust law, but a law nonetheless. Further incentive to hide the body.

Maybe the agent lady will even help.

 

[CachedBaguette]

Man, you saw her in 1 scene only.

Honestly, I think the story is near the end. I don't think we will see more than 2 more update.

I do remember that DB wrote here that he was planning to complete the game by the end of 2022.

Considering his last absence, end of 2022 seems very unlikely. Even if there will be only two updates.

 

[NewTricks]

Man, I just want to believe that you're rebutting just like that, for the sake of it.

We - me, you, everybody - are totally and perfectly aware that the place MC is driving Emma to in the morning is a high school.

I didn't dispute that she was of high school age. You know... 18. I just clarified in the post that you initially responded to that it could be what is called in the UK a college. What in the US would be called a prep school. The last two years of high school that is meant to prepare you for what is called college in the US and University in the UK. The game uses a lot of terminology from the UK, which is cause for confusion amongst folks who aren't down with the lingo.

 

[TheCrimsonRevenger]

Man, you saw her in 1 scene only.

Honestly, I think the story is near the end. I don't think we will see more than 2 more update.

I do remember that DB wrote here that he was planning to complete the game by the end of 2022.

Yeah that super long delay pretty much nullifies any "end of 22" projections, I would think

OR....the next update or two will indeed mark the end...of Chapter One. Just in time for Chapter two to start, focusing on the Sex Slave Ring as the new primary antagonist.

 

[Old Dog]

I think that kaylah may just step a side when she realises that Charlotte has feeling for the MC as Kaylah has already mentioned that she will not stand in the way if Charlotte makes a move towards the MC.
Lucy is going to be a tough one as she has always been in her sisters shadow and realises how hard it will be for her to see the MC/Charlotte together so who will make the ultimate sacracise?

 

[Jarulf]

Maybe the MC will just get on his horse and ride into the sunset once he's saved everyone.

 

[Old Dog]

probably safer for him

 

[Irgendwie Irgendwo]

I had a doubt which I raised a few posts ago. If you're on the Emma route, does she still save the MC's number as "Dad"?
I still just feel uncomfortable af because Emma is literally a 14 y/o from what she looks like.

I am pretty sure I have maximum Emma points (don't know if that means a route choice or not) and got the Dad phone.

 

[TheCrimsonRevenger]

Maybe the MC will just get on his horse and ride into the sunset once he's saved everyone.

I'm pretty sure the Patrons would riot. Uh, I mean the Patrons would "fiery-but-mostly-peacefully protest."

But that would be funny AF...

 

[CachedBaguette]

I think that kaylah may just step a side when she realises that Charlotte has feeling for the MC as Kaylah has already mentioned that she will not stand in the way if Charlotte makes a move towards the MC.
Lucy is going to be a tough one as she has always been in her sisters shadow and realises how hard it will be for her to see the MC/Charlotte together so who will make the ultimate sacracise?

If I'm not mistaken, there was dialogue (or monologue?) when Lucy accept that Charlotte loves MC and she's even willing to push them together.

 

[UncleFredo]

Maybe excuse wasn't the right term, English isn't my mother tongue.

Still i dont think he has the legal defense of self-defense, not when the court has access to all we seen.
Hillside is basically Bootleg Hollywood, so lets check California's law on this:

Which imo because carter was disarmed and in a choke hold he fails the third and potentially the first requirement
at which point he may still call for the Flannel doctrine so he gets a less severe charge.

You guys might disagree but that's how i see it.


I guess the difference here is that i really don't see Carter as having any chance of escaping or badly hurting the MC when the MC managed to choke hold him.

Since english isn't your mother tongue, I'll ASSume you are not familiar with the legal system in the USA.
It's very basic. The US legal system, assuming it operates properly, reserves to a person the ABSOLUTE right of self defense, limited to situations where that person is being attacked. Now up to the point where the person is facing deadly force and is in fear for their life or the life or lives or others, that right is mitigated by the notion of appropriate force. Appropriate force takes into consideration the circumstances involved. For example a man of moderate age who is in good shape is attacked by an unarmed person. Were he to pull out a pistol and kill his attacker his actions would be scrutinized and he'd likely have to convince a jury that he was in fact in fear for his life. Consider the same attack on a 90 pound 60 year old woman who shoots her attacker. Her use of deadly force would almost assuredly be accepted at face value.

In this case Carter attacks an unarmed MC with a deadly weapon declaring his intent to kill him and chop Charlotte into pieces in front of Emma. There is NO question that the MC faces a deadly threat and is at least in fear for Charlotte's and Emma's life, if not his own. Then he gets badly cut. Carter never surrenders. The MC has NO legal, or (in my opinion) moral, obligation to leave him alive to later threaten Charlotte or Emma. Had Carter not had the knife and declared his intent to kill, the actions of the MC MIGHT have been difficult to defend, but as staged he was within his rights and Carter got exactly what he deserved.

All over the world, there are instances where a misapplied chokehold broke a suspect's neck. Other than weird Hillside legal corruption, there is no way this comes back on the MC.