I'm curious about people's opinions about netorare vs netori.

[Segnbora]

My Wife's a Star appears to have actual swinging in it. There are stretches of The Adventurous Couple that most definitely feature explicit swinging, though it's also clear that the dev's heart is really more in the open relationship/willing cuckold/cheating genres. I've skipped the last few iterations of A Happy Marriage but that one seemed like it was heading towards reasonably healthy swinging-adjacent behavior, though that game had a writer change so it might be different now.

To me, anyone who thought Swing & Miss was going to be a swinging game failed to see that the title has two equally important words in it.

 

[khumak]

I haven't seen any swinger games that actually was swinging. Most seem to be a ploy by the other couple to steal the MC's wife and turn it into a full-time threesome without the husband getting in the way. For example, the game

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in which the neighbor's plan was basically to train the MC's wife as a gimp they could both dominate in the bedroom, problem is they had to figure out a way to get her to agree to begin her "training." So, they came up with the swinging idea, basically while the MC's wife was having tons of sex and S&M play with the husband, the neighbor's wife basically trapped the MC in celibacy only giving him handjobs, footjobs, and pegging him at one point. Eventually, they have the wife trained, and they say that the "swinging" is over for the MC but the MC's wife will only be having sex with them from now on.

Yeah it's not very common. Usually the swinger stuff I see is more along the lines of the wife getting gangbanged while MC watches which is definitely not my thing. There are a few out there though where MC and the wife both get some action. Even less common are scenes where the wife watches hubby with other girls. No idea why. I do enjoy that but it's very hard to find.

 

[ChaosOpen]

Yeah it's not very common. Usually the swinger stuff I see is more along the lines of the wife getting gangbanged while MC watches which is definitely not my thing. There are a few out there though where MC and the wife both get some action. Even less common are scenes where the wife watches hubby with other girls. No idea why. I do enjoy that but it's very hard to find.

I have found one example but it's hard to enjoy because the boyfriend never gets into it and every H-scene is comprised mostly of him unloading his emotional baggage about how guilty he feels for cheating on his girlfriend despite it being her idea, her clearly getting off to it, and him always having sex with her after cuckolding her(basically it's forplay rather than being full blown "girl no longer wants to have sex with you" as seen with male cuckolding). Here is the game if you want to check it out:

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[ChaosOpen]

Yeah it's not very common. Usually the swinger stuff I see is more along the lines of the wife getting gangbanged while MC watches which is definitely not my thing. There are a few out there though where MC and the wife both get some action. Even less common are scenes where the wife watches hubby with other girls. No idea why. I do enjoy that but it's very hard to find.

I couldn't find a game like that so I decided to make one.
https://f95zone.to/threads/whats-mine-is-yours-v1-0-vitalsigns.60442/#post-4091687

 

[tanstaafl]

Interesting thread, I find it interesting that the double standard implicit between netorare and netori hasn't been mentioned. Both versions of NTR involve destruction and harm if the terms are being applied to a story correctly, the only difference being that the direction the destruction is different. One is inward, one is faced out. This doesn't just apply to the player or reader, either, but the author or game creator as well. It is rare to find a netori in which the MC is as emotionally destructive as the invasive force in netorare, whatever that force may be.

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netorare is a prime example. Try to flip the script, imagine the primary aggressor in this story is the MC, create an internal dialogue for that, and you begin to see what I'm talking about. The vast majority of netori stories involve the MC being some kind of hero who saves the target of his lust from a boring life. The malice implicit in netorare just doesn't find its way into netori as often.

The psychological backflips required to truly separate the two has always been interesting to me.

 

[ChaosOpen]

Interesting thread, I find it interesting that the double standard implicit between netorare and netori hasn't been mentioned. Both versions of NTR involve destruction and harm if the terms are being applied to a story correctly, the only difference being that the direction the destruction is different. One is inward, one is faced out. This doesn't just apply to the player or reader, either, but the author or game creator as well. It is rare to find a netori in which the MC is as emotionally destructive as the invasive force in netorare, whatever that force may be.

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netorare is a prime example. Try to flip the script, imagine the primary aggressor in this story is the MC, create an internal dialogue for that, and you begin to see what I'm talking about. The vast majority of netori stories involve the MC being some kind of hero who saves the target of his lust from a boring life. The malice implicit in netorare just doesn't find its way into netori as often.

The psychological backflips required to truly separate the two has always been interesting to me.

No, that is dead wrong. Netori are netorare stories but your point of view changes. The story is told from the womanizing asshole. A netori is not a game about a good person saving a woman like a valiant hero. The comic you linked to would be a flipped script, it would talk about how you're corrupting her, laughing at her husband, and breaking her mind. In both netorare and netori the focus isn't on the woman, there would be no need for cheating if that was the case, she is simply a means to an ends of tormenting an innocent couple. The suffering isn't a traditional sexual act, it's mental. It's about hopelessness, jealousy, and pain; whether you want to cause that to another or receive that is the difference between netori and netorare.

 

[tanstaafl]

No, that is dead wrong. Netori are netorare stories but your point of view changes. The story is told from the womanizing asshole. A netori is not a game about a good person saving a woman like a valiant hero. The comic you linked to would be a flipped script, it would talk about how you're corrupting her, laughing at her husband, and breaking her mind. In both netorare and netori the focus isn't on the woman, there would be no need for cheating if that was the case, she is simply a means to an ends of tormenting a male(or being tormented) without homosexuality. The suffering isn't a traditional sexual act, it's mental. It's about hopelessness, jealousy, and pain; whether you want to cause that to another or receive that is the difference between netori and netorare.

I absolutely agree that's what netori is supposed to be, but more often than not if a manga, doujin, or game claims to be netori the MC is some kind of good guy. That's my point.

 

[khumak]

I couldn't find a game like that so I decided to make one.
https://f95zone.to/threads/whats-mine-is-yours-v1-0-vitalsigns.60442/#post-4091687

Nice. I'll have to check it out when I get a chance. I have a few ideas I'm working on myself with the one that's farthest along being centered on a MC whose GF discovers she gets off on jealousy and likes to watch him with other women.

I've mostly been focusing on the story and characters for now. My current system is too slow to do much rendering at the moment, but once I have my new system set up with a shiny new 3090 (or maybe a 20GB 3080Ti or something) I have big plans

 

[Guntag]

You can search using the "cheating" tag, most of the time it will be netori (it might just be a minor aspect of the game though). Unless you are the one cheating, but it's less common.

 

[Cornmilf]

A lot of netorare fans actually like the netori aspect, while the true masochists are in a minority.

If the majority of netorare fans ACTUALLY like the netori aspect, then Netori should have been way more popular compared to what it is right now. It's quite safe to say that the majority of netorare fans is somewhat a masochists. No shame though, different strokes for different folks.

 

[desmosome]

If the majority of netorare fans ACTUALLY like the netori aspect, then Netori should have been way more popular compared to what it is right now. It's quite safe to say that the majority of netorare fans is somewhat a masochists. No shame though, different strokes for different folks.

Maybe because most devs doing netori play it safe to appeal to vanilla fans. It's usually some asshole husband who is never around and the MC is framed as the hero. The relationship progression of the female target and her partner is minimized. The character arcs usually don't focus on the "stealing by corruption" that is the core feature of NTR that fans like.

It's basically just a harem situation with a little bit extra. That little bit extra makes a standard harem story more bearable, but it's really rare to actually get to play the perspective of the "NTR antagonist" in netori stories. The good netori shit that appeals to NTR fans would be evil male MCs corrupting females who happen to have significant others. For example, Black Lilith games like Ochiru Hitozuma and Prison Battleship.

The games that are billed as netori are just too tame to appeal to degenerates like NTR fans. If they make more fucked up MCs that steal bitches, I'm sure NTR fans would enjoy it.

 

[ChaosOpen]

Maybe because most devs doing netori play it safe to appeal to vanilla fans. It's usually some asshole husband who is never around and the MC is framed as the hero. The relationship progression of the female target and her partner is minimized. The character arcs usually don't focus on the "stealing by corruption" that is the core feature of NTR that fans like.

It's basically just a harem situation with a little bit extra. That little bit extra makes a standard harem story more bearable, but it's really rare to actually get to play the perspective of the "NTR antagonist" in netori stories. The good netori shit that appeals to NTR fans would be evil male MCs corrupting females who happen to have significant others. For example, Black Lilith games like Ochiru Hitozuma and Prison Battleship.

The games that are billed as netori are just too tame to appeal to degenerates like NTR fans. If they make more fucked up MCs that steal bitches, I'm sure NTR fans would enjoy it.

I have to agree with the above, while I know I posted something different earlier, I've got to say I have changed my mind. There is a strong emphasis to portray the MC as the girl's white knight.

 

[Cornmilf]

Maybe because most devs doing netori play it safe to appeal to vanilla fans. It's usually some asshole husband who is never around and the MC is framed as the hero. The relationship progression of the female target and her partner is minimized. The character arcs usually don't focus on the "stealing by corruption" that is the core feature of NTR that fans like.

It's basically just a harem situation with a little bit extra. That little bit extra makes a standard harem story more bearable, but it's really rare to actually get to play the perspective of the "NTR antagonist" in netori stories. The good netori shit that appeals to NTR fans would be evil male MCs corrupting females who happen to have significant others. For example, Black Lilith games like Ochiru Hitozuma and Prison Battleship.

The games that are billed as netori are just too tame to appeal to degenerates like NTR fans. If they make more fucked up MCs that steal bitches, I'm sure NTR fans would enjoy it.

What's your point though? Most devs and artist are doing vanilla netori because corruption netori doesnt do well in the first place. Corruption netori is still doing like dog shit compared to netorare. And again, if the majority of netorare fans actually enjoy relating to the "bad guys", then corruption netori shouldn't be doing so bad like it is right now. Hell even just MC corrupting girls in general should have fared better if the majority of netorare fans are actually a sadist.

 

[desmosome]

What's your point though? Most devs and artist are doing vanilla netori because corruption netori doesnt do well in the first place. Corruption netori is still doing like dog shit compared to netorare. And again, if the majority of netorare fans actually enjoy relating to the "bad guys", then corruption netori shouldn't be doing so bad like it is right now. Hell even just MC corrupting girls in general should have fared better if the majority of netorare fans are actually a sadist.

Do some basic data gathering before making statements like that.

+Male protagonist
+Corruption
-NTR
33 pages of results.

+NTR
27 pages of results.

So yes, male MC corrupting girls has more games even with 3x the filters. Probably because it does appeal to many NTR fans and also non-NTR fans who like corruption.

As for netori specifically, this site lacks the tags to parse for it. Still, it is my general observation that games that specifically focus on netori is comparatively rare, whether it be corruption based or vanilla based netori. On VNDB, netori has 12 pages and netorare 18. Not a huge difference, but let's just assume that netori as a genre is not popular.

Why is this? You state your purely subjective reasoning without any basis. In fact, your arguments are so shit that I feel like this would be a waste of time, but here we go...

For some odd reason, you make this giant leap that netori would be hugely popular if NTR fans accepted it. Why would you think this? Let's take the most extreme example. Say all 12 pages of netori games on VNDB is only propped up by non-NTR fans. Then lets say NTR fans suddenly all started loving netori and all the 18 pages of NTR games magically turned into netori. That makes 30 pages... compared to 146 pages of romance games on VNDB. So both NTR and Netori has very few games compared to vanilla stuff.

What if we look at the sales/rating/downloads/likes/whatever? This is harder to parse through. Since reactions is easiest to measure, let's look at that.

To me, Ochiru Hitozuma is the prime example of evil male MC corruption netori that is amazing. It has a

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reception on VNDB. Let's compare it to Taimanin Yukikaze

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&

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. Those are the purest NTR games out of the prime catalogue of this company. Ochiru Hitozuma blows them out of the water in 10 and 9 ratings. Granted, Yukikaze is objectively not as good as Ochiru Hitozuma, imo. Other famouse translated NTR VNs like

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and

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. And other examples of translated corruption netori games include

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,

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,

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,

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. You can more or less see that the numbers are around the same ballpark.

Let's compare Ochiru Hitozuma to the most (in)famous NTR game of all time, Dark Hero Party. Since this game is RPGM and doesn't exist on VNDB, we look at F95zone. Ochiru Hitozuma has 302 reactions. Dark Hero Party has 255. Most other well known NTR focused games like NTRMAN stuff consistently have like 300 reactions here.

Wanna look at some other corruption Netori games? NTR Legend (it's pure corruption netori), has 659 reactions despite being MTL. That is significantly more than the NTR games.

Just for comparison, vanilla focused stuff like

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and and

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has way way more ratings on VNDB (although they have legitmiate gameplay aspects which can add to the quality and appeal). If we include minimal porn romance VNs, the gap is even wider.

Keep in mind that we can't directly compare Japanese games to Western games. Western VNs will by far have more interaction on this site and Japanese Vns on VNDB. I looked at the Japanese games for simplification.

Besides, most western games have a variety of tags/themes and couldn't rightly be said to be focused on any one thing like corruption, netori, NTR, male/fem dom or even romance. They naturally have more engagement and likes than games focusing on a narrower niche fetish. Those choice based multifaceted games cannot really be compared objectively.

-------------------------------------------

So what reasonable conclusions can we draw from all this?

We find that there is around the same engagement for corruption netori and NTR.

Also, both netori and NTR tend to fall behind vanilla in the number of games and engagement via reactions. By how much is anyone's guess, but I'm thinking something like 3:1 ~ 10:1 depending on the methodology.

-------------------------------------------

On to the discussion.

You are saying that NTR fans are all masochists and won't play corruption netori games from the POV of the NTR antagonists. Your absurd supporting argument is that corruption netori should be hugely more popular if your assumption was wrong. I showed that corruption netori see roughly equal or greater community engagement compared to NTR. I also showed that both of these genres pale in comparison to vanilla/romance fan base. So even if we take the most extreme viewpoint that corruption netori fans and NTR fans are mutually exclusive, adding these 2 bases together wouldn't suddenly make it "way more popular."

Now here is my counterpoint. Refer to my poll from a while back. The percentages are screwed up because multiple votes were allowed, but you can already see that a huge majority of NTR players prefer, or are capable of, playing purely from a detached third person mind set. They can choose to not self insert or even empathize with the MC. The straight forward conclusion is that most NTR fans are not forced to view this content from the masochistic POV. Some can, some must, but most can choose otherwise.

So then, what's the point? I'm sure you will ask that since you obviously don't understand. It's corruption. If you are not self inserting in NTR, you are just looking at a fucked up corruption story of a female falling so low that she becomes a cum dump of some NTR antagonist. She falls so low that she is willing to forsake her loved one and leave them devastated.

That means the majority of NTR fans just want to see some fucked up corruption, whether it be NTR, corruption netori, female protagonist corruption, or male MC just corrupting girls. This is all within the same sphere of corruption. In fact, you can see that the first set of data up top is largely from one studio, Lilith Soft. I showed you that their NTR and netori VNs have similar appeal. Now let's look at female protag corruption VNs.

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.

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. How about some evil male MC corrupting girls without netori?

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.

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.

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. Oh look, they all have more or less similar range of numbers. Looks like fans of Lilith Soft, which is a company known for their "females turning into pig bitches" plot, don't care at all if it's NTR, netori, female, or male protagonist. They just want to see the corruption.

Corruption netori being rare isn't an issue with demand. It's a supply side issue. If they make it, NTR fans which largely overlapp with corruption fans will play it.

 

[sonhot]

Maybe because most devs doing netori play it safe to appeal to vanilla fans. It's usually some asshole husband who is never around and the MC is framed as the hero. The relationship progression of the female target and her partner is minimized. The character arcs usually don't focus on the "stealing by corruption" that is the core feature of NTR that fans like.

It's basically just a harem situation with a little bit extra. That little bit extra makes a standard harem story more bearable, but it's really rare to actually get to play the perspective of the "NTR antagonist" in netori stories. The good netori shit that appeals to NTR fans would be evil male MCs corrupting females who happen to have significant others. For example, Black Lilith games like Ochiru Hitozuma and Prison Battleship.

The games that are billed as netori are just too tame to appeal to degenerates like NTR fans. If they make more fucked up MCs that steal bitches, I'm sure NTR fans would enjoy it.

I actually have a hard time finding rpg/vn that focusing on saving a woman from her disfunctional relationship. Most of the time it happened in a harem game so it doesnt really count. I seems to see more games where you play the villain corrupting women using underhanded tactics and methods.

 

[Cornmilf]

Do some basic data gathering before making statements like that.

+Male protagonist
+Corruption
-NTR
33 pages of results.

+NTR
27 pages of results.

Not only did you forgot to put more excluded tags like femdom for the male protag + corruption, You also got the numbers wrong, lmao. Talk about doing some basic data gathering.

F95-old
NTR 24 pages = https://f95zone.to/search/201686418/?q=*&t=post&c[prefixes][0]=18&c[tags]=ntr&o=date

Male protagonist + Corruption 12 pages = https://f95zone.to/search/201692090...8&c[tags]=male+protagonist,+corruption&o=date

F95-alpha
NTR 358 Results = https://f95zone.to/sam/latest_alpha/#/cat=games/page=1/tags=258/prefixes=18

Male protagonist + Corruption 222 results = https://f95zone.to/sam/latest_alpha/#/cat=games/page=1/tags=103,173/notags=258,2252/prefixes=18

VNDB
Netorare, male MCs that got cucked 191 Characters =

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(Female MC POV are not included)

Netori, male MC that cucks people in general, regardless of corruption or not 156 =

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VNDB VN entries:

Pure Netorare 257 VNs =

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The VNs entry for Male protag + Sexual Corrupt in vndb is heavily mixed with "corruption by others" and even with that it's still 108 VNs =

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Netorare thread in 4chan or here are thriving, meanwhile there's no sadist protag / protag corrupting thread in 4chan. You netorare guys get new contents almost every week in here, while sadist protag / protag corrupting haven't got any in two months lmao. Look what Im trying to say is if the majority of you netorare fans actually like sadism aspect of netorare, then why don't you just migrate to straight up sadistic protag and make that genre alive, instead of dwelling in a genre that does have a sadistic aspect in it, but is heavily clouded in masochism?

 

[mrxdeparis]

Disclaimer: This post is my personal opinion at this moment in time. It changes wildly in an irregular manner, so don't quote me on it.

----

When the player identifies with the main character:
Netori is a self-motivational speech.
Netorare is a self-harm technique meant to forcefully trigger a hormone discharge, like an emo cutting themselves.

When the player doesn't identify with any character:
Netori is a pity party.
Netorare is a sadist's wet dream.

Why netori people don't like netorare people:
Netorare fans seem to enjoy watching others in pain or causing it, which makes them dangerous company as you don't know when they might turn on you.

Why netorare people like netori people:
They're easy targets.

---

To compare and attempt to simplify, but succeed in complicating it, the only difference between the two is their position in the same situation. One is the aggressor and the other is the victim.

As an example:
Someone is getting robbed.
Netori means the player is either the robber or an ally of the robber making sure the robbery is a success.
Netorare means the player is either the person being robbed or a friend watching the robbery happen from a helpless position.

Someone who says they like Netorare from the victim's position is a masochist who uses the pain or intense emotional state to get a chemical high.
Someone who says they like Netorare from the robber/aggressor's position actually likes Netori, but either fail to recognize that or enjoy to troll.
Someone who says they like Netori actually mean they like to be the robber/aggressor in a Netorare situation.

In my shitty conclusion, Netori and Netorare are indeed different. Netori is the aggressor, robber, dominant. Netorare is the victim, robbee, submissive. People looking for one or the other want the same situation but from different positions. A lot of netorare fans actually like the netori aspect, while the true masochists are in a minority. And most netori fans fail to realize they like playing the bad guy in a netorare game.

People are weird. Just shake your head, sigh once and move on.

By why netorare has to be so abundant when the real masochist are a minority. Every time I find a game or a hentai with good animation and art style it is a NTR. Why?