VN Ren'Py Imperial Chronicles [v0.7] [Lazy Monkey]

[Filipis]

My man have you played Monkey Business, his previous game? It was exactly the same. You could say no to a character and miss tremendous amount of content and lock yourself from additional options/choises. LM percieves his games as solid projects, not as ongoing development/improvisation, he has room for whims but doesnt base his games on them. Some options lead to additional options, some to nothing. Let him cook.

My memory of MB is not that great, but it was a good game overall. If what you say is true, then that would be bad as well - but only if there was nothing else to compensate for that "loss".

In IC, it's looking like LM really wants the Coup to happen.

Which begs the question, why even give players the choice to "end" the Coup right there and then, if it means you get shafted on content because "your choices have consequences"... by that logic just let me kill everyone from the start, those would be some real consequences...

Those that choose the way of the Coup get rewarded, while others get shafted = not a meaningful choice at all.

 

[Filipis]

it's also worth remembering that the update was done in 2 months. only 2 months, Carl.

I've always disliked it when developers try to make every path the same length just to please all players, not because every path is explained with a solution and logic. In chapter 6 the finale is the coronation and everything leading up to it.
If we got to it by simply killing Cass right away - fine, since I felt a real difference in the solutions.

Just because the devs fail to explain alternative paths, doesn't mean they're de facto inexplicable.

For instance, why does killing Cass in 0.5 end the Coup? AFAIK, she is not alone in her scheming, probably even has allies among some of the folk. Why not write the "alternate" path (Cass dead) that still includes the Coup attempt - except this time, it's someone else from Cass' conspiracy that acts out her plans?

Because as far as I am aware, even the Coup itself always ends the same way, with MC being crowned. So, the destination is the same, the path to get there is different, and presumably, the path after will be different as well. This was a decision that carried the same magnitude if LM offered us a way to not get married at all - something many of us argued here would create too large of a difference in branches, a prospect no dev can handle. Yet LM does it with the decision to kill Cass or not. So, where are all those people now?

But those that killed Cass in 0.5 don't get the Coup and all the character development that happens with it - no alternatives, no trade-offs or benefits for going either way... just shafted. Players on the Dead Cass route are now a significant step behind in their relationship with the Queen Mother, and thankfully, that's the only LI that got some scenes on the Coup route.

Once again, for all those in the back, listening: Locking content behind decisions is fine, as long as there are trade-offs for following every decision possible.

And as far as the timeline of development goes: that's irrelevant to the point being made here.
Lazy Monkey has now publicly declared that not all paths will be equal in content (nobody expects 100% equality, that shit is hard to quantify exactly in order to be able to balance it properly), and something tells me he implicitly means avoiding the Coup nets you exactly ZERO "benefit", which is akin to declaring a path "canon"... in an interactive novel. Great.

 

[wizardcock]

And as far as the timeline of development goes: that's irrelevant to the point being made here.
Lazy Monkey has now publicly declared that not all paths will be equal in content (nobody expects 100% equality, that shit is hard to quantify exactly in order to be able to balance it properly), and something tells me he implicitly means avoiding the Coup nets you exactly ZERO "benefit", which is akin to declaring a path "canon"... in an interactive novel. Great.

No, development timelines matter. If it was for example 4 months, surely LM would have added some extra scenes for kill_Cass path. But when it's 2 months, he has to make sacrifices and the path of killing Cass is just the one that can be shortened and it will look at least. logical. A coup without Cass is unlikely...at least for now.

 

[Penguin01]

My memory of MB is not that great, but it was a good game overall. If what you say is true, then that would be bad as well - but only if there was nothing else to compensate for that "loss".

In IC, it's looking like LM really wants the Coup to happen.

Which begs the question, why even give players the choice to "end" the Coup right there and then, if it means you get shafted on content because "your choices have consequences"... by that logic just let me kill everyone from the start, those would be some real consequences...

Those that choose the way of the Coup get rewarded, while others get shafted = not a meaningful choice at all.

you know I dont want to speculate untill the game is relised, or at least untill a couple more updates. Maybe he will "compensate" with more content for no-coup path in 0.7 idk
MB was smaller though

 

[DrakoGhoul]

For instance, why does killing Cass in 0.5 end the Coup? AFAIK, she is not alone in her scheming, probably even has allies among some of the folk. Why not write the "alternate" path (Cass dead) that still includes the Coup attempt - except this time, it's someone else from Cass' conspiracy that acts out her plans?

Get the Isis ending this update. She pretty much explains it well. Cass doesn't actually have real power. Her "allies" will leave her to die in a heartbeat as soon as she fails. Her dying is the signal that their fun is over. The only thing is that they still accomplished their goal of poisoning the king. That's honestly what happens when you have too many people with their own goals on your side.

If there was one "negative" aspect, it would be that you can't really get the full picture with one playthrough. For me, it's not really negative, but I can see how if you only played once the scene feels hollow. This is just my perspective on it though. You have every right to feel left out of content by your choice.

 

[Filipis]

No, development timelines matter. If it was for example 4 months, surely LM would have added some extra scenes for kill_Cass path. But when it's 2 months, he has to make sacrifices and the path of killing Cass is just the one that can be shortened and it will look at least. logical. A coup without Cass is unlikely...at least for now.

That was just one suggestion, there was certainly a way to expand on what happens if the Coup fails from the get-go. And by that logic, LM can just keep making updates for the Coup path, completely shafting the No Coup path, as long as, maybe by 1.0, he takes pity on us and gives us some real content? Really? That’s a horrible way to go about development.

And Lm already “confirmed” there were never any plans for No Coup path on this update.

 

[Filipis]

Get the Isis ending this update. She pretty much explains it well. Cass doesn't actually have real power. Her "allies" will leave her to die in a heartbeat as soon as she fails. Her dying is the signal that their fun is over. The only thing is that they still accomplished their goal of poisoning the king. That's honestly what happens when you have too many people with their own goals on your side.

If there was one "negative" aspect, it would be that you can't really get the full picture with one playthrough. For me, it's not really negative, but I can see how if you only played once the scene feels hollow. This is just my perspective on it though. You have every right to feel left out of content by your choice.

That sounds about as much as I expected from Cass and her schemes, but it’s a bandaid fix to a gunshot wound - achieves nothing. LM essentially just told us No Coup players to “pick Coup next time, crybaby”. And if I am somehow dead wrong about this, and some future update does indeed give No Coup players EXCLUSIVE content, then that’s also bad. Because that’s not what I want, at all. No one should be punished for making any choice in an interactive novel, not us No Coup players, and not you Coup players.

 

[Filipis]

you know I dont want to speculate untill the game is relised, or at least untill a couple more updates. Maybe he will "compensate" with more content for no-coup path in 0.7 idk
MB was smaller though

Doubt it. And even if that’s the case, that would be just as bad, swinging the pendulum the other way, instead of treating both paths with respect.

 

[sweetsix66]

Just because the devs fail to explain alternative paths, doesn't mean they're de facto inexplicable.

For instance, why does killing Cass in 0.5 end the Coup? AFAIK, she is not alone in her scheming, probably even has allies among some of the folk. Why not write the "alternate" path (Cass dead) that still includes the Coup attempt - except this time, it's someone else from Cass' conspiracy that acts out her plans?

Because as far as I am aware, even the Coup itself always ends the same way, with MC being crowned. So, the destination is the same, the path to get there is different, and presumably, the path after will be different as well. This was a decision that carried the same magnitude if LM offered us a way to not get married at all - something many of us argued here would create too large of a difference in branches, a prospect no dev can handle. Yet LM does it with the decision to kill Cass or not. So, where are all those people now?

But those that killed Cass in 0.5 don't get the Coup and all the character development that happens with it - no alternatives, no trade-offs or benefits for going either way... just shafted. Players on the Dead Cass route are now a significant step behind in their relationship with the Queen Mother, and thankfully, that's the only LI that got some scenes on the Coup route.

Once again, for all those in the back, listening: Locking content behind decisions is fine, as long as there are trade-offs for following every decision possible.

And as far as the timeline of development goes: that's irrelevant to the point being made here.
Lazy Monkey has now publicly declared that not all paths will be equal in content (nobody expects 100% equality, that shit is hard to quantify exactly in order to be able to balance it properly), and something tells me he implicitly means avoiding the Coup nets you exactly ZERO "benefit", which is akin to declaring a path "canon"... in an interactive novel. Great.

For how long will you keep nagging here repeating same things over and over again?
Does something prevent you from exploring "coup content" and then load your save where you killed Cass after 0.7 is out?

 

[wizardcock]

That was just one suggestion, there was certainly a way to expand on what happens if the Coup fails from the get-go. And by that logic, LM can just keep making updates for the Coup path, completely shafting the No Coup path, as long as, maybe by 1.0, he takes pity on us and gives us some real content? Really? That’s a horrible way to go about development.

And Lm already “confirmed” there were never any plans for No Coup path on this update.

relax bro, sooner or later in every path you're gonna fuck everyone several times. Some paths involve more action and combat, some less. It's logical. There'll probably be an option to put Cass in jail instead of executing her. Of course, she'll escape and there'll be some bullshit again. Moreover, if you killed Cass at v0.5 - you are fine and calm, you can every day in the future calmly seduce your mother, younger sister, twin sister and don't think about problems (although probably in case of Isis she will drag you into a new war)

in version 0.6, if you don't do a coup but leave Cass alive you get a lot of content. If you do a coup you get a lot of content.
But of course if you kill one of the main characters earlier, you get less content.

 

[harem.king]

I feel there is an element of tell don't show. we are TOLD cass is insane.
but are not actually given an option to try and reason with her only for her to give insane answers.

There'll probably be an option to put Cass in jail instead of executing her. Of course, she'll escape and there'll be some bullshit again.

That would have been a fine path actually. quite reasonable.
She is let loose because her backing for the coup is a small army (from her relatives) who sneaks inside the castle via hidden paths she showed them

 

[DrakoGhoul]

That sounds about as much as I expected from Cass and her schemes, but it’s a bandaid fix to a gunshot wound - achieves nothing. LM essentially just told us No Coup players to “pick Coup next time, crybaby”. And if I am somehow dead wrong about this, and some future update does indeed give No Coup players EXCLUSIVE content, then that’s also bad. Because that’s not what I want, at all. No one should be punished for making any choice in an interactive novel, not us No Coup players, and not you Coup players.

That's why I said I can see why it's a negative aspect of the game. Most players won't play the different routes like me. They have their runs set in stone for themselves and thus will miss stuff. However, this game encourages you to try the different paths for the lore and story. Otherwise, you'll miss context.

Now obviously the context changes based on the actions leading up to it. But at the same time, you can spot characters true intentions. Like Cass reaction to MC being named Heir vs when he isn't. Or if you know about Priscilla's relationship to Cass vs if you don't and meet her next to the unconscious King. She flat out tells MC that the coup wasn't required. She would've poisoned the King anyway for killing her sister. Yeah, in case you didn't know, Priscilla poisoned the King. She lies about the reasoning, if you don't know her relationship to Cass.

Stuff like that is why it's suggested to play multiple route. Though, you could also say it ruins characters too. I lost trust in Cass after last update because of it and now I don't trust Priscilla at all. Not like I did before. Lust doesn't equal trust, of course.

 

[DrakoGhoul]

relax bro, sooner or later in every path you're gonna fuck everyone several times. Some paths involve more action and combat, some less. It's logical. There'll probably be an option to put Cass in jail instead of executing her. Of course, she'll escape and there'll be some bullshit again. Moreover, if you killed Cass at v0.5 - you are fine and calm, you can every day in the future calmly seduce your mother, younger sister, twin sister and don't think about problems (although probably in case of Isis she will drag you into a new war)

in version 0.6, if you don't do a coup but leave Cass alive you get a lot of content. If you do a coup you get a lot of content.
But of course if you kill one of the main characters earlier, you get less content.

How Cass remains alive after this update is the real question, if you're not on her path. I'm curious how the dev is going to handle it.

The only way I could see it being possible for those not following Cass path is her being imprisoned in a tower or on "house arrest". Being held under the pretense that she went mad. Because, Cass didn't kill the King or poison him herself. She won't get off completely free, but her being princess might allow her some leeway. Depending on MC's decision next update.

This is assuming Cass didn't get his mother and/or sister killed of course. If she did, then yeah Cass is dead next update. Whether she kills herself or is executed. I don't think she'll try to escape. She knows they lost the element of surprise and the nobles on the fence aren't going to side with her again and risk everything. Especially when her newly returned brother ended her coup attempt. They achieved their goal with the King and can go back into hiding while watching how it plays out with MC's reign.

 

[Filipis]

For how long will you keep nagging here repeating same things over and over again?
Does something prevent you from exploring "coup content" and then load your save where you killed Cass after 0.7 is out?

Because "exploring coup content" doesn't mean shit to my No Coup path; I can view the scenes I "missed", yet it matters little when those scenes don't canonicaly happen on my path.

Which again, is not something I have a problem with. I quite enjoy the fact that the vampire LI is not available to me on my Warrior path. That is the real meaning of consequences.

But when a whole damn update is ONLY for those that picked a certain choice? Fuck that, that's punishment as opposed to consequences, and is bad game design.

I am glad you enjoy the game, as did I. IC is still a fantastic gem, but this latest update is, I genuinely hope, an exception - not the rule going forward.

Which is hard to believe when LM himself confirmed that these kinds of updates or happenings are all according to his plan.

 

[wisesage]

So Was Cass a virgin?

 

[Penguin01]

Doubt it. And even if that’s the case, that would be just as bad, swinging the pendulum the other way, instead of treating both paths with respect.

My man I ended this update and I feel what you're saying, but its the most logical thing to do. No time for cuni when kingdom is at stake

 

[DrakoGhoul]

You caled yourself a ”murderer” , along with everyone who made the same choices as you.
The game seems to issue a time out penalty for the act of murder.
How am I saying anything else? Are murderers supposed to be rewarded?
Without Cass there is no coup - that is the power of your murderous choice.
There are consequences in this game for such atrocity and we all have to abide if we did the act.
Here is the proof:



You did the same thing Cass wanted to do - only to her.

Parricide is at least frowned upon anywhere you look and it means the same thing whether it is Cass or the king.
The game put a lot of weight behind your murder path -which also means you are going yourself into the Red King prophecy. Who is next? The king if he disowned you for parricide?
The queen if she was disgusted at your action?
Your sister for disapproving?

We can all give reasosn why this or that, yet we are in full agreement that this story is already storyboarded and is running on rails.
The most easy to spot nudge in this game is the fact that MC has no real reason not to resent the king. Absolutely no reason at all.
MC got shoved off the stage by the king and is living in fear of getting killed for the king ransome on his head.
Irrelevant if this is true or not or if the king has actual guards protecting MC, he is led to believe, practically his whole life, that he is a pariah and is hunted for ransome, dead or alive. There is no way to reconcile something like that and MC and the king never ever reconcile it.

So, for all the bashing we can give the plot for beaing too much Machiavelly or Shakespeare or Game of Thrones, if we think about it for a while, MC was never meant to side with the king - ever.

Here comes the great dev who gives us the impossible option to let the whole life of fear and self loathing MC has been living all the time be water under the bridge and act like MC was at the court always, even if he has been living as a bastard for the longest of times.

We had our fun to pretend MC reconciled with the king when the plot and the story never allows for such tomfullery.

That was the red herring - you went on the made up, fan service - path of pretending not to follow a reasonable plot, of course you will find a dead end.
Choosing between the girl you swore your life to and have spent actual life changing moments with and your absent father who is never there to give you the reigns like a real monarch / father would to his heir - if he ever wanted to use you for anything other than allegiance fodder for the south or the north - then you side with the absentee - that is on you fully.

Anyone who has watched Dune 2 and the duel between faid and paul - there is the answer: slight of hand and misdirection of keeping MC distracted on her face while she removes the dagger and stops the bleeding with good old plucking - sticking a finger in to stop it then letting herself drop so as not to draw attention or any of the misleading tactics of a master thief/assassin she actually is, like fake bigger clothes, so a stab on her sides or directly would get diverted by a hidden armor plate while baggy thick cloth would trap the weapon and make it seem like it did slice or impale or go through, just not her actual body, but her carefully crafter armor adn garments. This is pure fantasy, just like dune, so anything can and will be explained convincingly in the game.

I'm confused here. What does my post about Priscilla's intentions have to do with Cass or your post in general? The edited part you added isn't even about Cass. You do realize the she there was in reference to Priscilla right?

 

[Canto Forte]

How Cass remains alive after this update is the real question, if you're not on her path. I'm curious how the dev is going to handle it.

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[With The]

Anyone playing on other path for bookworm, mage and warrior find any different scene in this update ?

 

[Filipis]

relax bro, sooner or later in every path you're gonna fuck everyone several times. Some paths involve more action and combat, some less. It's logical. There'll probably be an option to put Cass in jail instead of executing her. Of course, she'll escape and there'll be some bullshit again. Moreover, if you killed Cass at v0.5 - you are fine and calm, you can every day in the future calmly seduce your mother, younger sister, twin sister and don't think about problems (although probably in case of Isis she will drag you into a new war)

in version 0.6, if you don't do a coup but leave Cass alive you get a lot of content. If you do a coup you get a lot of content.
But of course if you kill one of the main characters earlier, you get less content.

That is not even remotely similar to an attempt of consolation.

I am sure, from your POV, my complaints are easily downplayed (or even dismissed completely) as "ramblings" of a scorned fan, but I heartily urge you to step into my shoes and show some empathy.

I wouldn't want any fan to be "punished" for choosing any path in this game, but you seem content with patronizing mine. Almost as if you believe your path to be the 'correct' one?

I clearly remember all of us jumping to LM's defense when some disgruntled fans complained about being forced to choose a wife (someone they might have no romantic interest in), and how we all argued that giving the players the option to NOT get married at all would be too big of a branch to handle.

Yet now, when LM created this huge branching opportunity of their own volition, with the choice to Kill or Spare Cass, those who picked the Kill option are supposed to bend over and accept the fact that LM couldn't be arsed to create a proper branch for that particular path? Why is that suddenly okay to do, but letting fans OPT OUT of a forced marriage was a step too far?