- Feb 23, 2019
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In a harem game, would you let a guy die to add two more girl to your harem?
- Thread starter Adabelitoo
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- Jun 24, 2018
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I'm sorry but thinking this way is way too bored to even consider. Based on this, every girl needs only one sex scene in the entire game, because one you saw her naked once in one place, you already saw her naked multiple times in multiple places. It makes no sense.
The tittle could be better, but look at the results. In fact I originally thought that "He'll die" would win with an easy 60-70%. I didn't get the example about death penalty. You mean that people may not end doing what their voted? That's fine for me.
Yes, I do that quite a lot. What does it matter if your save file is one hour old or one year old? You load it and press Ctrl to skip everything. You'll only stop skipping to see the new content from the other path. No need to remember your previous choices if you have a WT telling you what to do to get the outcome you want.
And yes I might be too much on my shoes a little, but hey, it's an idea about a game that I'm not planning to do. This topic, is 100% curiosity and fun for me. By the way, I didn't get the "Oh yeah, that person" part.
I said the "tiniest detail" as an exageration. I don't think this guy's death is something small if that's what you were thinking. I don't know if I'll offer clues. I want it to be "a surprise" but I'll show the guy actively trying to be friends with the MC and explain why he wants/wanted to be your friend, before or after the attempt to kill him depending on the route. I want to go for the late "Oh... shit...".
In Book Of Lust, one of the girls commits suicede if you ignore her at the beginning. She's presented as a lonely character. This guy won't kill himself, but I want to go for that kind of "Oh... it was up to me...".
Because the game is interesting enough to do it, and if it isn't, most people will just stick to their outcome or ask a full save with the other outcome.
You really want to see the world burn. I respect that.Bonus points if the player gets to see unskippable scenes between the good guy and his two ladies if he gets to live.
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- Nov 15, 2020
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If he were to be a true friend I would have 0 problems with that.Bonus points if the player gets to see unskippable scenes between the good guy and his two ladies if he gets to live.
But the problem I see here is that the guy is just some random guy to the MC at first and I don't see a lot of incentive to befriend him.
Therefore the bros before hoes argument also doesn't hold.
It depends on how I feel like playing the character.
Take Skyrim as an example. I can play the character as a Good person or I can play as a villain or in between.
The same can be said for playing adult games with me. I can replay a game different ways if the game is written anyways slightly decently.
Even when playing as a bad guy I still tend to have my own code of conduct or rules I build for that character.
Think of it like the hitman character in some stories that refuses to kill women and children.
I'm not opposed to another male having 2 women or whatever as well. Take for example if we were in squads or teams and he had his team and I had mine.
That isn't the only issues though. What are the pros and cons of doing either. If my character is good he is unlikely to just let another person die needlessly even to get two more women. Also how receptive would those women be if they ever found out you killed the person or even simply let them die.
Also having him alive he could be an ally in various situations depending on the story.
One thing though being friends is used way to much in stories to justify allies.
I can't give the full details on this.
One of my instructors while in service told the class about this guy he never got along with on the sub he was on. However, they had an incident water was coming in and he was trying to climb out with water poring in on him. Suddenly he felt a hand grab the back of his shirt and his hand nearest the top and he was lifted out through the water. That same guy he had problems with didn't give to shits about how well they got along or that he had been written up by him just the day before he was pulling everyone out he could help save regardless. He wouldn't have been in the least bit of trouble if he had chosen to swim off to a raft instead of trying to help people out.
Also if you are working with a team of people its more likely someone would let it slip if you did something like just hung back and watched the person die. So if you are going to have an option like that for him to realistically get away with it it is best they are alone. Or the other people there would have to be smart enough not to slip up on it and want the girls to join equally as much.
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- Oct 31, 2017
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Hi! Me again Adabelitoo, please do pardon that previous little post of mine. There was originally another 1k words behind it, and 2 attempts to shorten it later I found myself midway through a wild, tangential rant on Discipline: A Record of the Crusade. I decided right there that it was time to revoke my posting privileges and go to sleep. Hell, I don't even remember posting that little blurb... anyway, since then I've been mulling over how I wanted to phrase my thoughts, and I got to thinking about Point & Click adventures.
*crosses fingers* Oh Lawd, please let this sound even remotely sane...
Point & Click games follow a simple logic of presenting you with a situation to be passed via either a dialogue choice or inventory item, i.e. the puzzles (Well duh!). The thing about their design though, is that there's a nice little sweet spot in making you ask "What should I do here?" where the info you're given via the game's narrative & internal logic (I'm looking at you, Deponia) is just enough to figure it out, but holding back enough to not make it obvious and lose the sense of accomplishment. Every now and again though, you hit a point that we'll call "What does the designer expect me to do here?" which can range from a multi-step puzzle having a strict order of completion (when, according the game's logic, the order shouldn't matter) to the infamous
Why am I starting with this? After your responses throughout this thread, I'm feeling that you're conflating a game's narrative/internal logic and the metagame of rollbacks, savescumming, and walkthroughs concerning this hypothetical you've brought up. Which puts this squarely in the "What does the Designer expect me to do?" territory, and I don't think that's good.
Let me break this down more, and I'll start with your example to me, and there's something that really needs to be said:
(I'm certain that has come off as harsh, and I apologize because I am aware you're talking from a point with more information than you're giving out, and I can respect that. I'm just saying it like this because I've come across something of this style so many times with games posted in these forums that I've got to say it at least once, and that I really want you to avoid falling into this trap.)
While we're still on this example though, let me co-opt it a bit to try and explain Minotaur Burger thing again, preferably with a lot more clarity: It's still early game, and you (as the MC here, obviously) are headed to meet Manni, your friend, at a certain place (Where doesn't matter right now). You come to a crossroads, leading either Left or Right. Going Left turns out to be the direct route, ending with you meeting Manni at the time you agreed upon. Right, on the other hand, turns out to be the scenic route, this time with you being 20 minutes late and getting a quick "Dammit Lola!" bit of flavour text before the story continues on as normal, albeit with you now being 20 minutes "later" than if you had gone left.
So, minor branching, only difference of Left vs Right is 20 minutes. Moving on.
Now we're in mid-late game of the 'Right' path, and after a few more choices and a major plot branch we find ourselves stuck in a bad end. This is because being 20 minutes 'behind' we missed a portion of an earlier event, and having missed that we can't move forward now (and for argument's sake, let's say the other side of the major branch can't be finished if you arrive on time, i.e. if you chose Left).
Am I clear on the set-up this time? Late game plot point (Minotaur) forces bad-end because of an early game choice that seemed innocent (Burger). Now, I know anne O'nymous kind of touched on this by bringing up Heavy Five, so here's my take on what I meant from 'Arbitrary Dev Shenanigans':
Are there some breadcrumbs of hints being left here and there, like the odd mention of Lola continually being late in the later narrative, so that it can be figured out naturally while not blatantly telling the player to "Go Left, Stupid!"? If so, Not-Shenanigans, I see this as fair game. To me this shows there was enough care when crafting the narrative's little details, subtly hinting at what's going on, and effectively keeps me motivated enough to want to try again.
On the flip side, if it's unclear enough that it requires a random trial & error of possibilites, or if I'm expected to have a walkthrough in hand and rely on rollbacks, old saves, and other parts of the metagame? Well, we are smack dab in the Land of...
Hopefully that makes more sense than last time, as I really needed to get that one out of my system. I also look forward to everyone's reports, dismissals, and the lovely company of your ignore lists. Good night.
*crosses fingers* Oh Lawd, please let this sound even remotely sane...
Point & Click games follow a simple logic of presenting you with a situation to be passed via either a dialogue choice or inventory item, i.e. the puzzles (Well duh!). The thing about their design though, is that there's a nice little sweet spot in making you ask "What should I do here?" where the info you're given via the game's narrative & internal logic (I'm looking at you, Deponia) is just enough to figure it out, but holding back enough to not make it obvious and lose the sense of accomplishment. Every now and again though, you hit a point that we'll call "What does the designer expect me to do here?" which can range from a multi-step puzzle having a strict order of completion (when, according the game's logic, the order shouldn't matter) to the infamous
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. At best, this lowers enjoyment of the game. At worst? Raging Fist, meet Fragile Screen.Why am I starting with this? After your responses throughout this thread, I'm feeling that you're conflating a game's narrative/internal logic and the metagame of rollbacks, savescumming, and walkthroughs concerning this hypothetical you've brought up. Which puts this squarely in the "What does the Designer expect me to do?" territory, and I don't think that's good.
Let me break this down more, and I'll start with your example to me, and there's something that really needs to be said:
I know I'm cutting off the quote, and I really hate to attack the example directly, but let me be clear in saying this is the exact moment I hit Alt-F4 and remove this game from my system. No, seriously, and I'm not in rage-quit territory here either. You're bringing up the idea of an Instant-Death off what is basically a coin-toss of a choice, with nothing telegraphed ahead of time, and with no real point in the narrative (No, your difference of "Shot by Gun" and "Slipped on Doggy-doo" doesn't matter, because it's not linked to the narrative at hand.) There are ways you can pull off an instant game over though (and I can give my thoughts later if you want), but the situation as presented is a deal breaker in my opinion, and is not worth my time (to either play or post about in its game thread), it's not worth my bandwidth, and, most importantly, it's not worth my money. Hell, the best case in this scenario is me saying "Wow, this is some good art. Shame about all the B.S. it's attached to though," because I decided to take the time to extract & look at the assets before putting it in the bin.
(I'm certain that has come off as harsh, and I apologize because I am aware you're talking from a point with more information than you're giving out, and I can respect that. I'm just saying it like this because I've come across something of this style so many times with games posted in these forums that I've got to say it at least once, and that I really want you to avoid falling into this trap.)
While we're still on this example though, let me co-opt it a bit to try and explain Minotaur Burger thing again, preferably with a lot more clarity: It's still early game, and you (as the MC here, obviously) are headed to meet Manni, your friend, at a certain place (Where doesn't matter right now). You come to a crossroads, leading either Left or Right. Going Left turns out to be the direct route, ending with you meeting Manni at the time you agreed upon. Right, on the other hand, turns out to be the scenic route, this time with you being 20 minutes late and getting a quick "Dammit Lola!" bit of flavour text before the story continues on as normal, albeit with you now being 20 minutes "later" than if you had gone left.
So, minor branching, only difference of Left vs Right is 20 minutes. Moving on.
Now we're in mid-late game of the 'Right' path, and after a few more choices and a major plot branch we find ourselves stuck in a bad end. This is because being 20 minutes 'behind' we missed a portion of an earlier event, and having missed that we can't move forward now (and for argument's sake, let's say the other side of the major branch can't be finished if you arrive on time, i.e. if you chose Left).
Am I clear on the set-up this time? Late game plot point (Minotaur) forces bad-end because of an early game choice that seemed innocent (Burger). Now, I know anne O'nymous kind of touched on this by bringing up Heavy Five, so here's my take on what I meant from 'Arbitrary Dev Shenanigans':
Are there some breadcrumbs of hints being left here and there, like the odd mention of Lola continually being late in the later narrative, so that it can be figured out naturally while not blatantly telling the player to "Go Left, Stupid!"? If so, Not-Shenanigans, I see this as fair game. To me this shows there was enough care when crafting the narrative's little details, subtly hinting at what's going on, and effectively keeps me motivated enough to want to try again.
On the flip side, if it's unclear enough that it requires a random trial & error of possibilites, or if I'm expected to have a walkthrough in hand and rely on rollbacks, old saves, and other parts of the metagame? Well, we are smack dab in the Land of...
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Hopefully that makes more sense than last time, as I really needed to get that one out of my system. I also look forward to everyone's reports, dismissals, and the lovely company of your ignore lists. Good night.
Considering how few games actually have decent male side characters(honestly not including Japenese VN's I can probably only think of like 4 or 5 that weren't annoying as fuck), yes I would likely let him die the girls are just a bonus.
- Nov 15, 2020
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DesireXL, below I fixed the last part of your post.
After all, Adabelitoo promised to give us a good male side character who's worth our time.
Contrary to classic Point and Click games, which we may play for the puzzles and shenanigans, here we are talking about a porn game, which is ultimately made for fapping and not wondering to go left or right, or consequently wondering why you are 20 minutes late in every scene.
Don't get me wrong, I love a good story as well as a sense of agency, which is why I play these games rather than just watch porn movies, but perhaps these examples go a bit too far. Especially since they don't add anything from an erotic viewpoint. Contrary to other dilemma's, like "do I pursue the slut (for faster access to hot scenes) or the virgin (for more build-up and more satisfying story)". Most games even don't dare to implement such a, rather basic, decision.
After all, Adabelitoo promised to give us a good male side character who's worth our time.
snookums.d.panda, good post but you missed one rather important point:
Contrary to classic Point and Click games, which we may play for the puzzles and shenanigans, here we are talking about a porn game, which is ultimately made for fapping and not wondering to go left or right, or consequently wondering why you are 20 minutes late in every scene.
Don't get me wrong, I love a good story as well as a sense of agency, which is why I play these games rather than just watch porn movies, but perhaps these examples go a bit too far. Especially since they don't add anything from an erotic viewpoint. Contrary to other dilemma's, like "do I pursue the slut (for faster access to hot scenes) or the virgin (for more build-up and more satisfying story)". Most games even don't dare to implement such a, rather basic, decision.
- Oct 31, 2017
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Oh, don't worry Yngling, I'm well aware that nothing I said directly applies to any erotic aspect of a game, as I was directly replying to the set-up of That Guy dying/living, and to the in-game choices that end up deciding his fate (as it was implied that they wouldn't be very clear, and almost expected to have a WT to figure it out.)
I guess in the grand scheme of it, the point I was trying to get across is "If the way you expect me to play sounds like such a damn chore, why would I even stick around for the fappy bits?"
... Oh, nice. NOW I figure out how to put it in less than 25 words.
I guess in the grand scheme of it, the point I was trying to get across is "If the way you expect me to play sounds like such a damn chore, why would I even stick around for the fappy bits?"
... Oh, nice. NOW I figure out how to put it in less than 25 words.
- Jun 24, 2018
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I kinda get that point. I personally don't mind dying for a 50/50 random choice as long as 1) The death happens soon after choosing 2) it isn't something that happens ALL the time, or 3) at least it makes me smile for a second. I have friends that hate that with passion so I know you aren't the only one, but I don't think it's the worst thing that could happen.
Now, that was for non porn VNs. I plan to do a porn game with hot girls in sexy situations and lots of sex. If I make players quit and delete my game for a random 50/50, then I'll apologize to everyone, but not for the toin coss, I'll apologize because everything else must SUCK big time. Waifu Academy has tons of those 50/50 or 1 in 3 chances of hitting a game over all over the game. It gets annoying for me when I hit like 3 in a row in 15 minutes but loading a save isn't that much of a problem either, and for my game I plan to do it only once in the entire game.
I kept talking about deaths just to keep the focus there, but what I plan to do once isn't a death or a game over, it's just one outcome that may lock you out of 2 girls. The story won't change big time for that, all the good endings will still be there on the table. I get that "2 girls" in a harem game can be a big deal, that's where the dilemma hits.
I don't know if I'll offer clues. I want it to be "a surprise" but I'll show the guy actively trying to be friends with the MC and explain why he wants/wanted to be your friend, before or after the attempt to kill him depending on the route. I want to go for the late "Oh... shit...". In Book Of Lust, one of the girls commits suicide if you ignore her at the beginning. She's presented as a lonely character. This guy won't kill himself, but I want to go for that kind of "Oh... it was up to me...".
I don't feel like that much becomes a chore. This game, if I ever do it, will be a VN so players avoid the whole "clicking from one place to another" factor.
- Oct 18, 2018
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I still stand by my original stance that even if the guy is "cool" and all that I'd be tempted to let him die if he is unlikable to me as the player regardless of his relationship to the MC.
But *that's* the part that's got me right there.
The other guy meeting and befriending the MC. Their friendship could be the key to getting players to keep him alive, if they want to see the whole story and get all the girls if you set it up right.
it just all depends on the context of the friendship and how they are introduced to the player.
So we just expand on this other guy's importance to the story, right? Instead of being some random potential friend, simply change this one-time chance encounter between the MC and the potential friend into the main catalyst for the whole plot.
So now they guys meeting each other happens at the very start of the game. They get along for whatever reason, start sharing ideas, becoming bros, and realize (for plot purposes) that they both eventually hope to have their own harems. They set down a few rules (like no ntring/sharing/swinging going on between their girls), and it's all show in a fun friendly manner with neither of them getting to competitive, angry at, or jealous of each other. Like, keep them total bros all the way through, right? And whomever can get the most girls by ____ date wins.
Then comes those unintended death swings. At a few points along the line of the story the friend/competitor can die through the player/MC's choices or inaction, and the MC is absolutely devastated but will somehow end up taking care of both their harems at that point. Buuuut those are all bad endings and the story just stops right there with the funeral and the merging of the 2 harems. Any other potential LIs that could have been met later on and added to the MC's harem is just never introduced because the loss of the MC's friend changes his future and prevents him from meeting the other characters.
So in a way that would force the players to choose whether they want to settle with what they've got, or keep the friend alive to keep getting more.
But *that's* the part that's got me right there.
The other guy meeting and befriending the MC. Their friendship could be the key to getting players to keep him alive, if they want to see the whole story and get all the girls if you set it up right.
it just all depends on the context of the friendship and how they are introduced to the player.
So we just expand on this other guy's importance to the story, right? Instead of being some random potential friend, simply change this one-time chance encounter between the MC and the potential friend into the main catalyst for the whole plot.
So now they guys meeting each other happens at the very start of the game. They get along for whatever reason, start sharing ideas, becoming bros, and realize (for plot purposes) that they both eventually hope to have their own harems. They set down a few rules (like no ntring/sharing/swinging going on between their girls), and it's all show in a fun friendly manner with neither of them getting to competitive, angry at, or jealous of each other. Like, keep them total bros all the way through, right? And whomever can get the most girls by ____ date wins.
Then comes those unintended death swings. At a few points along the line of the story the friend/competitor can die through the player/MC's choices or inaction, and the MC is absolutely devastated but will somehow end up taking care of both their harems at that point. Buuuut those are all bad endings and the story just stops right there with the funeral and the merging of the 2 harems. Any other potential LIs that could have been met later on and added to the MC's harem is just never introduced because the loss of the MC's friend changes his future and prevents him from meeting the other characters.
So in a way that would force the players to choose whether they want to settle with what they've got, or keep the friend alive to keep getting more.
- Oct 31, 2017
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Well that definitely clarifies things for me Adabelitoo, and I'm really glad that the parts that I cut out of my last post mentioned issues that don't apply here (yes, that was the short version). Now that my worries are put to rest, allow me to address my previous 'chore' comment, or rather walk it back quite a bit. When I saw talk on "how you were expecting" your game to be played (those would be my words btw), it made me think that if someone is walking in with that idea of how their game is going to be played, that's exactly how they'll design their game to be played and good luck to those playing it blind. I'll continue sparing you the lengthy rant that entailed (again, that was the short version), but I managed to lose the context through the cropped quoting & piecemeal replies, and that one is on me. So let me say, panda to human, my bad.
If y'all are wondering where the rest of this post is, funny thing that.
I had another little example here planned, hoping to show some clues that are only picked up in hindsight, but an afternoon later I ended up with a pretty decent scenario outline, which I think I'll be working on some more (no ideas stolen btw and I've no plans of ever doing a VN, just so we're clear). If you're curious though, I can probably trim out the points I wanted to get across and show em here.
If y'all are wondering where the rest of this post is, funny thing that.
I had another little example here planned, hoping to show some clues that are only picked up in hindsight, but an afternoon later I ended up with a pretty decent scenario outline, which I think I'll be working on some more (no ideas stolen btw and I've no plans of ever doing a VN, just so we're clear). If you're curious though, I can probably trim out the points I wanted to get across and show em here.
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- Feb 1, 2020
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I usually like when characters in a game have their relations, although, it depends on the game - of course. That said, I have somewhat gravitated away from games where all the girls' sole purpose is to pleasure the MC's supposedly magic dick, and those where I haven't is because of a well written story. This also means that I actually like when the MC has more than one relation, and where other dudes can play meaningful parts of the story. It's so boring when among the entire cast of characters the MC is the only male - that or perhaps his rival is too. I'm not that fragile.
For instance Our Red String by Eva Kiss is a great story where all the girls and guys plays a meaningful part and has some sort of relation to the MC - but also where the MC don't have to fuck all of them.
But of course, it all depends on the story. So, if the dude is cool, then I'd probably keep him as a friend.
For instance Our Red String by Eva Kiss is a great story where all the girls and guys plays a meaningful part and has some sort of relation to the MC - but also where the MC don't have to fuck all of them.
But of course, it all depends on the story. So, if the dude is cool, then I'd probably keep him as a friend.
- May 19, 2020
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I vote to save him. For one, he seems like a good man and would make a good friend. For another, whatever that mysterious thing is that would kill him could come after me next. Safety in numbers and upholding the social contract makes for a safer community afterall.
It very much depends. In Morrowind theres slavers and so yeah theyre all dying.. oh shit one was a main quest giver.. maybe next time Ill remember to get past this part before getting trigger happy..
Sounds like a good key game choice for MC dev. Let's say he dies no matter what by getring shot by the baddies.
Good MC tries to stop bleeding "no carl, say with me!" Etc. Mc hands clean has because he tried
Bad MC makes him die faster by taking pressure off the wound "Don't worry about Betty and Stacey, Carl. I'm goona take VERY good care of them"
Could expand on this/ change this by habinf a way for follower guu to live, or have conflict with MC based on decisions that lead to it
"Carl will rememeber that:
Good MC tries to stop bleeding "no carl, say with me!" Etc. Mc hands clean has because he tried
Bad MC makes him die faster by taking pressure off the wound "Don't worry about Betty and Stacey, Carl. I'm goona take VERY good care of them"
Could expand on this/ change this by habinf a way for follower guu to live, or have conflict with MC based on decisions that lead to it
"Carl will rememeber that:
- May 19, 2020
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This would make a great character moment. Dekarous Perhaps an idea for Edgar and another champion (Maybe Horace)?
Depends on the other guy, tbh. If he's an insufferable, annoying, prick, I'd probably kill him myself if I were given the option, just to be spared from his existence throughout the rest of the game. If he were a cool, enjoyable character that I find to be entertaining, I'd probably be more inclined to save his skin.
Might also depend on the girls, too. I mean if the girls really are hot and not totally annoying, and offer the promise of some good content, and they're twins? That'd probably be a difficult prize to pass up, especially if they are into threesomes and twincest.
Might also depend on the girls, too. I mean if the girls really are hot and not totally annoying, and offer the promise of some good content, and they're twins? That'd probably be a difficult prize to pass up, especially if they are into threesomes and twincest.
- Oct 3, 2017
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In the senario the op discribed i would shallow my pride and let him die by ignoring him.
While i probley plot for a way to murder his murderers(self persivasion and i really dont like people with more power then me)
I do not value the lives of other people.
The two extra slave's for the small price of ignoring a male is acceptable.
Mind you i would still try to avange him but ultimate the guilt of letting him die is easier to live with then the guilt of not owning all woman in the game.
Stupid obbession with collecting all pretty woman.
While i probley plot for a way to murder his murderers(self persivasion and i really dont like people with more power then me)
I do not value the lives of other people.
The two extra slave's for the small price of ignoring a male is acceptable.
Mind you i would still try to avange him but ultimate the guilt of letting him die is easier to live with then the guilt of not owning all woman in the game.
Stupid obbession with collecting all pretty woman.
There is a problem with the question you are asking. See by saying that the party would be able to romance the girls if the guy dies that creates a bias for anyone who would be interested in the girls. That conflicts with the earlier statements about us not knowing.
I generally only make friends with guys in RL if we have a common interest or goal or business.
If I had no reason to make friends with the guy I wouldn't end up making friends with him.
If he was a weapons smith and we could work out some business dealings or whatever then potentially. If it is a one time deal probably not.
Making friends with an NPC in game tends to always suck. Not like they can go out and do Karaoke, provide a decent conversation over dinner, or anything else friends do.
Friends I have in RL. Well we do stupid shit. We go sky diving, snow skiing,Rock climbing,Portuguese bull fights. We go hunting, camping, spelunking. Trying to see the farthest target we could hit past a mile. Build shit like rockets, telescopes, dragsters, ... The list of shit is long.
You want to sell me on making friends with an NPC. To be blunt unless there is something to gain from it it isn't going to happen.