VN Ren'Py It's Just a Game [v0.4.1] [DigiDec]

[Euron13]

Ness might lowkey be the best girl. She’s not a submissive fuck puppet, but out of all the potential LI’s she seems like the one who might develop something akin to a genuinely wholesome relationship with the MC.

 

[DigiDec]

Ness might lowkey be the best girl. She’s not a submissive fuck puppet, but out of all the potential LI’s she seems like the one who might develop something akin to a genuinely wholesome relationship with the MC.

Ness will sort of be "What if your best friend/wingman was a muscle mommy?" and I admittedly have a soft spot for her so my personal challenge is to not give her all the best scenes.

 

[Euron13]

Ness will sort of be "What if your best friend/wingman was a muscle mommy?" and I admittedly have a soft spot for her so my personal challenge is to not give her all the best scenes.

There are scenes that are probably hotter (Some of the stuff with Mol, Nat et el) but that emeralds scene in the latest update was the perfect balance of sexually charged/endearing. It’s the classic tomboy angle without slipping into a cliche, it’s damned good!

 

[Remembrance]

I get where you're coming from, and I see some of your points. We could go on for hours about why I made some of the design decisions I did (at least I could, you might actually have better things to do) and a lot of the stuff has as much to do with setting a tone as it does specific plot points. I think there's a big difference between telling a player that the MC is in the dark about something vs trying to make them feel like they're in the dark about some things. And again, specifically with this, I wanted to establish that the changes happening with the girls weren't tied to the MC's presence in the sim, since that's how the whole thing would work in a lot of games like this. So how do I do that? I could have outright told the player, but that's a little clunky. I could've abbreviated the sim scenes some, but those mostly only exist to lay some groundwork of establishing how the sims are supposed to work so I needed to let them play out a little bit. Also, I didn't want the player to be 100% in the dark.

And I'm not even entirely disagreeing with you. I went back and forth about how I would handle it, and I knew that this way would get some mixed reactions. The opening parts of the game are intended to convey a feeling of the MC not having control over the events in his life. As things progress he, and the player, starts to get a little more control. Eventually, he will be in a position to assert a lot of control.

Thing is I don't think most player will think that from a story perspective. They'll just see a dev trying to increase the game's 'replayability' artificially & making them choose between the girls.
2 sim choices in, they might just drop the game cause they don't want to choose between girls/routes. (I might just have if I didn't read & interact with your posts)
And that'd be fine if this was such a hardcore exclusive relationships kinda game, but that'd be a misunderstanding.
Not only do you not get the idea across, you get the wrong idea across.

The premise feels flawed, that you are communicating something to the players by restricting their interactions with the game. They don't know what they don't see ¯\_ (ツ)_/¯
People who don't play a sim will not realise the sim still happened, especially if they only play a single character's sims or 1 sim each from all 3 characters.
Maybe ppl who play 1st & 3rd sims from mom/sis will get an inkling.
Even playing the mom sim will not make this connection cause if you see it you played/influenced it, if you don't see it, you'll not make the connection between the real world & the sim(cause you don't know) & if you see the last sim only, it could be because the real world influenced the sim (cause you don't know sim 1 & 2)
Ok, strach the previous statement, even if you see 1st & 3rd sims, it's not very obvious there either.
Only way you know is if you played all the sims in previous play-throughs or using save-load.
And that's a poor job of getting the point across.
Basically your idea is fine but I don't know if you're getting your point across to the players in-game...

Anyway, you might want to put this in the dev notes or summary, & maybe mention my mod as an alternative where the player gets to make that choice.

And the comment about breaking stuff, I just meant that you probably won't have to worry about the mod breaking anything in future updates.

I figured, which is why I made the mod, & why I made it the way it is.
I could feel watching multiple sims wouldn't break the story, which is why I put work into this mod instead of just leaving the cheat mod to do the job with a mod option that force plays all the sims one after another.
My mod aims to be a story mod where the story is slightly adjusted & not a cheat way to view multiple routes. Basically think of it as an What-if episode, what if you had gone with a different design choice? Now players have that choice if they so prefer.

Aside from maybe some dialogue not 100% matching for players who jumped into multiple sims.

The mod takes care of that. Like the current update (0.3.2) doesn't contain any sim choices, just a if-else block with the sim variables (which is what I search for the mod).
I just needed to override the qr2 label & replace this code:

        "No.":
            mc "Am I having fun intruding on the private fantasies of my loved ones?  No.  It feels... wrong."

            scene qr3_25

            if sim2_n >= 1:
                izzi "Oh?  It felt wrong dumping a load in your girlfriend while she proclaimed herself your bitch?"

            elif sim3_m >= 1:
                izzi "Oh?  It felt wrong painting your [m_title]'s face after bending her over your desk?"
            else:
                izzi "Oh?  It felt wrong double-stuffing your A.I. girlfriend with your [s_title]?"
                mc "That's not... yes, it felt wrong.  I wasn't supposed to see any of that."

            izzi "But you did... and I suspect you might be experiencing a little denial about how it felt."

With this code:

        "No.":
            mc "Am I having fun intruding on the private fantasies of my loved ones?  No.  It feels... wrong."

            scene qr3_25
            $ _temp = "Oh? It felt"
      
            if sim2_n >= 1:
                izzi "[_temp] wrong dumping a load in your girlfriend while she proclaimed herself your bitch?"
                $ _temp = "Or did it feel"

            if sim3_m >= 1:
                izzi "[_temp] wrong painting your [m_title]'s face after bending her over your desk?"
                if sim2_n >= 1:
                   $ _temp = "Or maybe it felt"
                else:
                   $ _temp = "Or did it feel"
            if sim3_s >= 1:
                izzi "[_temp] wrong double-stuffing your A.I. girlfriend with your [s_title]?"
            mc "That's not... yes, it felt wrong.  I wasn't supposed to see any of that."

            izzi "But you did... and I suspect you might be experiencing a little denial about how it felt."

This gives them varying dialogue true to their choice to view 1, 2 or 3 sims.
So if the mod is updated, those dialogues will be taken care of. Just maybe remind me when the game updates if the sim variables are used in that update.

 

[gregers]

Ness might lowkey be the best girl. She’s not a submissive fuck puppet, but out of all the potential LI’s she seems like the one who might develop something akin to a genuinely wholesome relationship with the MC.

The Ness who blackmails the MC, threatens his life, and is just generally an abrasive cunt with zero impulse control? That's pretty far from my idea of wholesome, but YMMV. Unless she suddenly gets a whole-sale personality transplant in the latest update, she can still get in the sea, along with her sisters.

Thing is I don't think most player will think that from a story perspective. They'll just see a dev trying to increase the game's 'replayability' artificially & making them choose between the girls.
2 sim choices in, they might just drop the game cause they don't want to choose between girls/routes. (I might just have if I didn't read & interact with your posts)
And that'd be fine if this was such a hardcore exclusive relationships kinda game, but that'd be a misunderstanding.
Not only do you not get the idea across, you get the wrong idea across.

Yup.

 

[Euron13]

The Ness who blackmails the MC, threatens his life, and is just generally an abrasive cunt with zero impulse control? That's pretty far from my idea of wholesome, but YMMV. Unless she suddenly gets a whole-sale personality transplant in the latest update, she can still get in the sea, along with her sisters.

I can fix her.

 

[Lerd0]

I can fix her.

 

[the_fluff]

Before this update(3.2) Nat was near the bottom for me for all of the girls but with this? Nat skyrocketed in favor for me today. To the heavens. Absolutely MC's bottom bitch. She knows what it's about, those bitches do need to be put in their place cause the MC is the man of the fucking house and he needs to take fucking charge. That's what I'm always thinking for any MC I play.

Mom needs to know that there are consequences to her actions. Consequences is the name of the MC's dick and she's gonna get it. HARD. She needs to understand she's been teasing too much and her precious boy is gonna take what he wants.

And Nat is right once again where Sara especially needs to be trained and put in her place. She's getting too cocky and needs a firm hand and a firmer dick to keep her in line. Nat even put her in her place with her words without us there, which is how the bottom bitch should be. A scene where we actually steal Kelli from her to establish dominance would be wicked. "What's mine is mine and what's yours is also mine" type of beat. And of course the roughest of poundings till she passes out.

I really liked the MC putting his stamina to use. I'd like to see more of that. I love it when MC's got that superhuman stamina for sex.

But really though? Great update. I was worried a bit of the MC's passivity but with Nat there to show him he has to take charge I'm hopeful he'll show it. Nat's MVP of this update and now one of if not my top girl.

 

[DigiDec]

Thing is I don't think most player will think that from a story perspective. They'll just see a dev trying to increase the game's 'replayability' artificially & making them choose between the girls.
2 sim choices in, they might just drop the game cause they don't want to choose between girls/routes. (I might just have if I didn't read & interact with your posts)
And that'd be fine if this was such a hardcore exclusive relationships kinda game, but that'd be a misunderstanding.
Not only do you not get the idea across, you get the wrong idea across.

The premise feels flawed, that you are communicating something to the players by restricting their interactions with the game. They don't know what they don't see ¯\_ (ツ)_/¯
People who don't play a sim will not realise the sim still happened, especially if they only play a single character's sims or 1 sim each from all 3 characters.
Maybe ppl who play 1st & 3rd sims from mom/sis will get an inkling.
Even playing the mom sim will not make this connection cause if you see it you played/influenced it, if you don't see it, you'll not make the connection between the real world & the sim(cause you don't know) & if you see the last sim only, it could be because the real world influenced the sim (cause you don't know sim 1 & 2)
Ok, strach the previous statement, even if you see 1st & 3rd sims, it's not very obvious there either.
Only way you know is if you played all the sims in previous play-throughs or using save-load.
And that's a poor job of getting the point across.
Basically your idea is fine but I don't know if you're getting your point across to the players in-game...

Anyway, you might want to put this in the dev notes or summary, & maybe mention my mod as an alternative where the player gets to make that choice.


I figured, which is why I made the mod, & why I made it the way it is.
I could feel watching multiple sims wouldn't break the story, which is why I put work into this mod instead of just leaving the cheat mod to do the job with a mod option that force plays all the sims one after another.
My mod aims to be a story mod where the story is slightly adjusted & not a cheat way to view multiple routes. Basically think of it as an What-if episode, what if you had gone with a different design choice? Now players have that choice if they so prefer.

The mod takes care of that. Like the current update (0.3.2) doesn't contain any sim choices, just a if-else block with the sim variables (which is what I search for the mod).
I just needed to override the qr2 label & replace this code:

        "No.":
            mc "Am I having fun intruding on the private fantasies of my loved ones?  No.  It feels... wrong."

            scene qr3_25

            if sim2_n >= 1:
                izzi "Oh?  It felt wrong dumping a load in your girlfriend while she proclaimed herself your bitch?"

            elif sim3_m >= 1:
                izzi "Oh?  It felt wrong painting your [m_title]'s face after bending her over your desk?"
            else:
                izzi "Oh?  It felt wrong double-stuffing your A.I. girlfriend with your [s_title]?"
                mc "That's not... yes, it felt wrong.  I wasn't supposed to see any of that."

            izzi "But you did... and I suspect you might be experiencing a little denial about how it felt."

With this code:

        "No.":
            mc "Am I having fun intruding on the private fantasies of my loved ones?  No.  It feels... wrong."

            scene qr3_25
            $ _temp = "Oh? It felt"
     
            if sim2_n >= 1:
                izzi "[_temp] wrong dumping a load in your girlfriend while she proclaimed herself your bitch?"
                $ _temp = "Or did it feel"

            if sim3_m >= 1:
                izzi "[_temp] wrong painting your [m_title]'s face after bending her over your desk?"
                if sim2_n >= 1:
                   $ _temp = "Or maybe it felt"
                else:
                   $ _temp = "Or did it feel"
            if sim3_s >= 1:
                izzi "[_temp] wrong double-stuffing your A.I. girlfriend with your [s_title]?"
            mc "That's not... yes, it felt wrong.  I wasn't supposed to see any of that."

            izzi "But you did... and I suspect you might be experiencing a little denial about how it felt."

This gives them varying dialogue true to their choice to view 1, 2 or 3 sims.
So if the mod is updated, those dialogues will be taken care of. Just maybe remind me when the game updates if the sim variables are used in that update.

This conversation reminds me a little bit of some of the conversations I had after the initial release, where some players were extremely focused on the very initial part of the game where the player was inside his cyberpunk sim. In the sense that as the game gets a little bit bigger and this specific thing becomes a much smaller part of the overall experience, perspectives might shift a little bit. Obviously, I don't want the choice between a handful of short scenes to be so upsetting that players drop the game before they reach the point where they realize how mostly inconsequential that portion was. Maybe I am underestimating the average player's willingness to afford the game an opportunity to stretch it's legs a little. Writing a compelling story while also grabbing and capturing a player's attention is a tough needle to thread. I mentioned a couple of times before in different conversations that my natural style is closer to a slow burn than the pace I've written at in this game, I know that as a first-time dev I have an uphill battle so I've kept things pretty rapid fire since the audience has no reason to trust that I'm actually going to deliver a payoff.

So, the initial comment that I teased you over, that being forced to choose between sims was a "bad" design choice, we are both looking at it from different perspectives. To me, whether the design was good or bad, depends on whether or not it achieved its intent. It was not intended to make the player feel good. It was not intended to make the player feel in control of things. Now, I don't want it to have been so upsetting that it throws players off the game and I want the overall experience of this game to be enjoyable. But writing a compelling story is tricky, especially since I'm not a very good writer , and trying to do it with one hand tied behind my back because I'm walking on eggshells trying to keep the player pleased with every single beat is even trickier. I'm also fighting expectations, not just with this decision, but every other part of the game. AVNs tend to share a lot of tropes and players are very quick to assume that a game will handle things the same way that most others have. Like the idea that being forced to choose which sim they look at is me forcing them to make a long-term decision about which girl's content they get, I never do anything to suggest that at all.

You think it was a bad way to communicate certain things to the player. It's hard for me to judge that since I'm looking at things from the other side. I'm just not sure how else I could communicate those things without explicitly telling them, while still capturing the atmosphere/tone I'm shooting for.

The Ness who blackmails the MC, threatens his life, and is just generally an abrasive cunt with zero impulse control? That's pretty far from my idea of wholesome, but YMMV. Unless she suddenly gets a whole-sale personality transplant in the latest update, she can still get in the sea, along with her sisters.



Yup.

Hey man, nobody's perfect.

Think less personality transplant, and more that you get to see her actual personality, not her when she's putting on the tough guy bad bitch act.

View attachment 3891152

Izzi probably falls under this category as well.

Before this update(3.2) Nat was near the bottom for me for all of the girls but with this? Nat skyrocketed in favor for me today. To the heavens. Absolutely MC's bottom bitch. She knows what it's about, those bitches do need to be put in their place cause the MC is the man of the fucking house and he needs to take fucking charge. That's what I'm always thinking for any MC I play.

Mom needs to know that there are consequences to her actions. Consequences is the name of the MC's dick and she's gonna get it. HARD. She needs to understand she's been teasing too much and her precious boy is gonna take what he wants.

And Nat is right once again where Sara especially needs to be trained and put in her place. She's getting too cocky and needs a firm hand and a firmer dick to keep her in line. Nat even put her in her place with her words without us there, which is how the bottom bitch should be. A scene where we actually steal Kelli from her to establish dominance would be wicked. "What's mine is mine and what's yours is also mine" type of beat. And of course the roughest of poundings till she passes out.

I really liked the MC putting his stamina to use. I'd like to see more of that. I love it when MC's got that superhuman stamina for sex.

But really though? Great update. I was worried a bit of the MC's passivity but with Nat there to show him he has to take charge I'm hopeful he'll show it. Nat's MVP of this update and now one of if not my top girl.

Nat was fun to write for this last update. At first, I was a little bit stuck with how she should act now that she's decided to embrace her kinks but once I settled on that "assertively submissive" vibe I really liked the things it let me do.

If you didn't get the massage scene it's probably worth a quick replay if you're a fan of Nat, just make sure not to fool around with any other girls in the real world until you reach Nat's sex scene from this last update.

 

[Hungover00]

Nat was fun to write for this last update. At first, I was a little bit stuck with how she should act now that she's decided to embrace her kinks but once I settled on that "assertively submissive" vibe I really liked the things it let me do.

If you didn't get the massage scene it's probably worth a quick replay if you're a fan of Nat, just make sure not to fool around with any other girls in the real world until you reach Nat's sex scene from this last update.

Is "assertively submissive" a power bottom?

 

[DigiDec]

Is "assertively submissive" a power bottom?

Not exactly, more like she's very insistent that the MC gets dominant. Like "you will spank me, you will force me to clean your cock, you will build a stable of submissive breeding slaves". She wants the MC to have control, but she'll put the collar on her neck and the leash in his hand if she has to.

 

[Hungover00]

Not exactly, more like she's very insistent that the MC gets dominant. Like "you will spank me, you will force me to clean your cock, you will build a stable of submissive breeding slaves". She wants the MC to have control, but she'll put the collar on her neck and the leash in his hand if she has to.

I guess I'm learning I'm ignorant, because that sounds like a power bottom to me. A forceful submissive. But I'm likely missing out on some nuance or subtleties.

 

[Jake the flake]

Is the android port not incest patched? I'm playing it now and it looks like it isn't...

 

[DigiDec]

I guess I'm learning I'm ignorant, because that sounds like a power bottom to me. A forceful submissive. But I'm likely missing out on some nuance or subtleties.

Honestly, I might be a little bit off on what exactly a power bottom is. I think those terms got a little bit blurry once straight people started using them anyways.

Is the android port not incest patched? I'm playing it now and it looks like it isn't...

Must be a bad link, which site did you download it from?

 

[Hungover00]

Honestly, I might be a little bit off on what exactly a power bottom is. I think those terms got a little bit blurry once straight people started using them anyways.


Must be a bad link, which site did you download it from?

As a mostly straight guy, you're probably correct.

Will have to try and remember and do a research binge on the term when I wake up.

 

[ufsmt]

Sin-D was originally going to be just a complete one-off character but she is consistently proving to be very popular. I've already worked out how she's going to show up again but unfortunately it hasn't made it into the game yet.

I mean, that's entirely your own fault. What did you expect to happen when you include scenes like this?

Spoiler: Sin-D

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Ness is a pretty cool girl, once you get to know her.

Yeah, I've warmed up to her. If I'd played for another few minutes before posting, I'd have reached the first Claudette scene which did a lot to undermine the "powerful bad bitch" persona Ness was trying to project. Now she's kind of turned into some kind of Bro... that you can fuck. A FuckBro if you will.

 

[gregers]

To me, whether the design was good or bad, depends on whether or not it achieved its intent. It was not intended to make the player feel good. It was not intended to make the player feel in control of things. Now, I don't want it to have been so upsetting that it throws players off the game and I want the overall experience of this game to be enjoyable. (...)

You think it was a bad way to communicate certain things to the player. It's hard for me to judge that since I'm looking at things from the other side. I'm just not sure how else I could communicate those things without explicitly telling them, while still capturing the atmosphere/tone I'm shooting for.

By now I've seen you talk about that design decison at length in this thread, and to be honest (and obviously speaking only for myself) I still don't know what you were hoping it would communicate.

To me it didn't communicate anything other than a vague annoyance. It didn't make me 'upset', i.e. an emotional response, just mildly frustrated and puzzled by what seemed like hostile game design needlessly limiting the player's options.

But despite finding some characters off-putting and disagreeing with some of your design choices, I think the strength of the game lies in your willingness to pursue your own vision for the game, considering each scene and story beat from what you want it to achieve in this specific instance without being limited by the stock templates of the genre. I may not approve of (or even understand) every choice you make, but your willingness to make your own choices is what makes this game interesting.

 

[DigiDec]

By now I've seen you talk about that design decison at length in this thread, and to be honest (and obviously speaking only for myself) I still don't know what you were hoping it would communicate.

To me it didn't communicate anything other than a vague annoyance. It didn't make me 'upset', i.e. an emotional response, just mildly frustrated and puzzled by what seemed like hostile game design needlessly limiting the player's options.

But despite finding some characters off-putting and disagreeing with some of your design choices, I think the strength of the game lies in your willingness to pursue your own vision for the game, considering each scene and story beat from what you want it to achieve in this specific instance without being limited by the stock templates of the genre. I may not approve of (or even understand) every choice you make, but your willingness to make your own choices is what makes this game interesting.

I appreciate that.

And yeah, I didn't want it to be a deeply upsetting experience for the player, but feeling something like slight annoyance or frustration over knowing that they're missing a piece of the larger puzzle kind of matches my intent.

Calling it hostile game design seems a little unfair, although we might have different definitions for that term. I'm not punishing you for your choice, I'm not using the threat of punishment to steer your decision, and I never did anything to build an expectation that you would be looking in on everything the girls do. Unless you view any choice that results in the exclusion of the options not taken as a punishment. No one is saying the choice between hooking up with Zoe at the club or making it to the meeting with Ness on time was a bad design decision, and from my perspective, I struggle to see the difference.

Maybe I'm not communicating effectively, maybe I am and some of you just 100% disagree with me, maybe we're all pointing at the moon while looking at each other's fingers.

This conversation has got me thinking about how I would have done things differently to maintain the overall experience I was shooting for without forcing the player to choose, and the first answer that comes to mind is to remove the choice entirely. Instead, I'd just have had it so only 1 girl happened to be logged into her sim when the MC was testing things and I'd give the player 1 look into each of the 3 different sims. Obviously, it's too late for that. If I had done it that way from the start I don't think there'd be a single complaint, but I'm not going to go back and remove content.

I do a lot of tweaks and rewrites to control things like pacing and tone which means that part of my decision to limit you to just 1 sim at a time involved me playing through that portion over and over again until I decided which works best. But you are all welcome to enjoy the game on your own terms. I don't mind if you guys want to save/reload to look at every possible scene or download mods to let you do it all in one playthrough.

You can view the version I released as the director's cut.

 

[RandomGuy99]

I'm travelling and haven't played the latest update yet, but don't forget that Qai "accidentally" dropped itself and the MC into Nat's sim one of the first times around. Whether it'll turn out an outright antagonist or not I don't know, but I'd expect Qai to be pursuing its own agenda and the MC probably shouldn't trust it.

I once briefly considered the possibility it could be working in with Isabella, but the MC meets Qai before she becomes aware of his existence, if I remember correctly.

No the first part where Qai drop into Nat simulations was explained when MC choose the check logs part. SO Qai shouldnt be an antagonist then.

Then question would be if Qai became antagonist when Izzi changed the code since she is not 100 percent sure what sticks. Izzi might unintentionally made Qai one when she change the definition of a game is.

 

[Hungover00]

I appreciate that.

And yeah, I didn't want it to be a deeply upsetting experience for the player, but feeling something like slight annoyance or frustration over knowing that they're missing a piece of the larger puzzle kind of matches my intent.

Calling it hostile game design seems a little unfair, although we might have different definitions for that term. I'm not punishing you for your choice, I'm not using the threat of punishment to steer your decision, and I never did anything to build an expectation that you would be looking in on everything the girls do. Unless you view any choice that results in the exclusion of the options not taken as a punishment. No one is saying the choice between hooking up with Zoe at the club or making it to the meeting with Ness on time was a bad design decision, and from my perspective, I struggle to see the difference.

Maybe I'm not communicating effectively, maybe I am and some of you just 100% disagree with me, maybe we're all pointing at the moon while looking at each other's fingers.

This conversation has got me thinking about how I would have done things differently to maintain the overall experience I was shooting for without forcing the player to choose, and the first answer that comes to mind is to remove the choice entirely. Instead, I'd just have had it so only 1 girl happened to be logged into her sim when the MC was testing things and I'd give the player 1 look into each of the 3 different sims. Obviously, it's too late for that. If I had done it that way from the start I don't think there'd be a single complaint, but I'm not going to go back and remove content.

I do a lot of tweaks and rewrites to control things like pacing and tone which means that part of my decision to limit you to just 1 sim at a time involved me playing through that portion over and over again until I decided which works best. But you are all welcome to enjoy the game on your own terms. I don't mind if you guys want to save/reload to look at every possible scene or download mods to let you do it all in one playthrough.

You can view the version I released as the director's cut.

Eh, you could probably edit it, change the before. Personally I think 2 people per session would work, that could be a nice portfolio for the character sims.

But as it is now, works. So no need to change anything.