Stan5851

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Oct 18, 2019
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"Innocent"? Please, the mere fact that they exist and do nothing to change their state of affairs makes them guilty. I had been advocating for a violent Revolution in this thread before, but I've reconsidered my stance on that issue. That apathetic biomass of filth doesn't deserve freedom and eqality. There's no hatred in their hearts, no burning desire to eradicate the evil bitches, no fire in their eyes. "Apathy is death. Worse than death, even, because at least a corpse serves as a food for the worms." (Kreia, KotoR 2).
Compare those sad sacks of crap to our glorious Juliette - she knows what she wants from life and we can see that in her eyes (ah, those beautiful cold, gray eyes). When she tells you she's going to "devour" you - you belive her. Do you honestly think those pathetic "good guys" (worms) - Otto, Junko, good subby Kane and Co - will do what it takes when the time comes? Of course not, they will choke on the first hard decision they have to make. All I see are soft, weak slabs of meat for Jules to enjoy grilling. And my Kane will be right there with her, putting more coals into the fire. :devilish:
We've been through this before. A race of chosen masters and a race of slaves. It ended in millions of casualties and World War II. About these people not doing anything and not rebelling. How many successful uprisings do you know of that took place in Nazi camps during WW2? I only know of 5 and I can't say they were all successful. You can read the outcome of these uprisings in the online Holocaust Encyclopaedia.
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We've been through this before. A race of chosen masters and a race of slaves. It ended in millions of casualties and World War II.
But we ARE quite literally a breed of chosen masters. That's the whole point of the Gambit - to create an Ubermensh (Kane + worthy sister = superior child). A comparison with WW2 Germany is an incorrect one though, because the germans had a racial ideology at the heart of their regime, with particular groups (jews, slavs, gypsies, mentally deficient, homosexuals etc) being branded "subhuman". At the Joy Facility, on the other hand, you can rise through the ranks if you're skilled enough. They have all sorts of people there - asian, black, bisexual girls etc. It's more of an anarcho-capitalist dystopia than national-socialist totalitarianism.

I got a feeling that Tess might've been inspired by works of Nietzshe and Ayn Rand for this particular setting.

Edit: As for all the slaves being monitored - unless there's a sophisticated AI dedicated to this task, it's impossible. You'd need an absurd amount of security personnel, which is definetly not the case here.
 
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Maviarab

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Edit: As for all the slaves being monitored - unless there's a sophisticated AI dedicated to this task, it's impossible. You'd need an absurd amount of security personnel, which is definetly not the case here.
Well we know they aren't, not even Dominique's if we recall our 'work assignment' with her.
 
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PickerLewd

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We've been through this before. A race of chosen masters and a race of slaves. It ended in millions of casualties and World War II. About these people not doing anything and not rebelling. How many successful uprisings do you know of that took place in Nazi camps during WW2? I only know of 5 and I can't say they were all successful. You can read the outcome of these uprisings in the online Holocaust Encyclopaedia.
A comparison with WW2 Germany is an incorrect one though, because the germans had a racial ideology at the heart of their regime, with particular groups (jews, slavs, gypsies, mentally deficient, homosexuals etc) being branded "subhuman". At the Joy Facility, on the other hand, you can rise through the ranks if you're skilled enough. They have all sorts of people there - asian, black, bisexual girls etc. It's more of an anarcho-capitalist dystopia than national-socialist totalitarianism.

I got a feeling that Tess might've been inspired by works of Nietzshe and Ayn Rand for this particular setting.
meme.jpg

I'm sorry, but the Simpsons have a meme for everything, in this case an ideal one for those of us who have studied almost nothing about the WW2 or never read the authors mentioned :LOL:.
 
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daffyrolls94

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Apr 17, 2023
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The mines and this room are monitored by dozens of automated drones that are remotely controlled from here as well.

Don't mind the drones, they're perfectly safe for us...they can't harm anyone without a mine worker chip.


You also know what function (one of many) these chips can perform. Yes, it's the electric shock function, the power of which can be turned into killing force with a snap of the fingers. Guards with guns go down there quite rarely, because mining is quite a harmful industry. So taking weapons away from the guards and simply taking over the facility will not work.

In the mines there is total and remote surveillance of every miner and the same remote means that can instantly punish or even kill him. And trained security guards can help too.
Dozens of drones monitoring a mine network with hundreds or thousands of miners is, to put it politely, a suboptimal counter-insurgency strategy. The replacement time for those drones would be like 2 months given they'd have to operate near constantly. Also if they have and can produce drones in this universe they can also - much more easily and cheaply - produce drone jammers, which would be maximally effective in an enclosed space like a mine.

Not to mention it'd be impossible to keep them charged in those circumstances unless they're plugged in, so you'd be much better off with stationary systems anyway. And stationary systems can be evaded and/or destroyed, especially if you only have 'dozens' of them covering hundreds of hectares, thousands of feet underground.

From what we were shown in the game, I can personally conclude that the security at JF sites is perfectly thought out, otherwise all those millions of people (not only miners, but also other workers) would have risen up long ago and swept away all their masters from Karlsson Group.
Millions of people in every known civilization were enslaved and exploited, yet didn't sweep away their masters. It's a question of social organization, which is one of the many things about this game and story that's not very clear.

I got a feeling that Tess might've been inspired by works of Nietzshe and Ayn Rand for this particular setting.
Nietzsche? No. There are a few points of similarity with Rand but this society is obviously feudal, not capitalist or fascist. They just call themselves a corporation. Why? Not clear. The correct answer is Sade himself, if Sade got bored of theorizing about perfect revolution and started posting tiktoks.
 
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Stan5851

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Oct 18, 2019
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Millions of people in every known civilization were enslaved and exploited, yet didn't sweep away their masters. It's a question of social organization, which is one of the many things about this game and story that's not very clear.
Right. That's exactly what I wanted to say (among other things), but didn't expand on my already large post. But the point is that before disparagingly calling people "biomass", which was voiced earlier (hello fascism again), it would be good to study the details of the social organisation of each particular group of people.

We know that the planet (at least the African continent where the events of the game take place) is severely lacking in water, food and energy. We know that the only place in the same Karlsson City (under which there are also mines for mining crystals and then turning them into energy) where there are no restrictions in food, water and energy is the elite neighbourhood of Kallista, where Karlsson Group executives, top managers and other such people live. The distribution of resources to the rest of the people (labourers and miners) follows strict rules set by the corporation itself.

The game mentions that miners (as opposed to mine guards) have to spend all their time in the mines, but we also know that many miners have families and even children. So it's not a "concentration camp (Nazi death camp) in its purest form" and all these people have something to hold on to and something to lose in one way or another. This is to the question of why their Masters have not yet been swept away here.

It is also mentioned in the game that children from ordinary (poor) families are taken away from their parents and given a good education and a chance to reach a higher social status than their parents had (remember Karlssom Academy Alumni with their classes for the rich/elite and classes for poor children)...

Anyway, we need more data about this world before we start making hasty conclusions or, even more so, contemptuously calling someone "biomass".

As for the dozens of drones and stuff - it's a similar situation here. I only cited a few lines from the game, but in the context of the global mine security setup, they don't mean much.

We've been hinted that KaneDom may yet have to go down to where the miners actually work (and no, I don't mean training a Wpod2 that obeys Kane). So for now, we don't know for certain what other facilities are being used at these sites. Who says there aren't equipped automated roadblocks with machine gun turrets in narrow mining tunnels? Who says there isn't a system for spraying poisonous (or soporific) gas that can cover huge underground workings and hypothetical rebels in a fairly short period of time.

Same goes for the chips implanted in the bodies of every slave, labourer, miner, low-level servant, etc. From what we have been shown, I can say that drones are not needed for instant remote activation of the chips. Moreover, such activation can also be mass activation. And I have a suspicion that the walls of the same JoyFacility or even the rocks of the mines under the main buildings are not an obstacle for these devices either. Remember how Kane, sitting in a separate undeground room (while testing the Wpod2 girls in the mines), remotely activated the girls' collars and not only them, hehe.

We don't know what kind of data transmission principle these chips use (it's simple radio waves, or perhaps some hidden and distributed island-wide system of secure repeaters operating on specific frequencies or some other wave principle used to transmit commands).

What we do know is that it would take a talented hacker of Nadia's calibre to hack into all those chips implanted in the miners' bodies to make the revolution possible. And since that's the case, it means that the system preventing possible miner revolts is doing its job so far and is quite reliable.
 
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daffyrolls94

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Apr 17, 2023
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The game mentions that miners (as opposed to mine guards) have to spend all their time in the mines, but we also know that many miners have families and even children. So it's not a "concentration camp (Nazi death camp) in its purest form" and all these people have something to hold on to and something to lose in one way or another. This is to the question of why their Masters have not yet been swept away here.
Hm, slight misundertanding here. I'm not including the society described in this game in the category of something that might work. For example providing food and shelter to miners within the mine itself would be logistical nightmare. Plus most of them would die from exposure to toxins. You'd spend more time hauling out corpses than minerals.

It is also mentioned in the game that children from ordinary (poor) families are taken away from their parents and given a good education and a chance to reach a higher social status than their parents had (remember Karlssom Academy Alumni with their classes for the rich/elite and classes for poor children)...
Training and then giving power to the people who hate them would be another reason the society wouldn't work. Empires recruited and deployed their auxiliary forces and institutions at their peripheries, not heartlands.

Anyway, we need more data about this world before we start making hasty conclusions or, even more so, contemptuously calling someone "biomass".
I get that this is part of a debate with someone else but out of interest, what's the moral distinction here? The game explicitly portrays non-main chars as naturally - not just politically/discursively - inferior to the main chars. You're down with exploring that concept, but calling them 'biomass' is off limits? Sorry, I just thought that was funny.
 
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Maviarab

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For example providing food and shelter to miners within the mine itself would be logistical nightmare. Plus most of them would die from exposure to toxins. You'd spend more time hauling out corpses than minerals.
Yet that's what actually happens....

I have to ask...have you actually played this ('and' digested the information given)? As Stan5851 pointed out, they do not leave the mines. Sure, the supervisors may get that 'privalige' (from time to time) but no one else does. Do you even recall the task Dominique gives you on her work placement and why?
 
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I find it absolutely hilarious how we as a community go full autist into every little detail of the story and the setting. I don't think I've seen it in any other thread here. I love it. Having said that, I'd recommend to not be too anal about it, or the setting might start falling apart.

For example, we've seen many yachts, helicopters, airplanes, cars, etc. To produce even one of those you need multiple factories with multiple production lines. Those factories need machinery of their own and spare parts, as well as a steady supply of power and raw materials (oil, steel, wood, plastic, glass, rubber). To get those you must have global trade, with reliable shipping of said materials at adequate prices. You also need many skilled workers at every stage of production.
Obviously, there's more than that, but my point is - such an economy is impossible in any sort of apocalyptic future (Metro 2033, Terminator, Mad Max, Last of Us, etc). Therefore, at some point we must suspend our disbelief and take the story setting for granted.

Which I do for KG. And the fact that rebellions are so rare tells me that the slaves are mostly content with their fate, they've accepted their position as worthless worms who lick the boots of their betters. So I'm not lifting a finger for them, because my Kane ain't a looser. Why should I respect those who don't even have respect for themselves? They are trash, worse than trash even, since they eat, shit and maybe even dare to think when the mood hits them. Unacceptable! Jules and me, we will devour them until we puke, and then devour some more. For that is their fate - to be a worthless toy at the mercy of their superiors. :devilish:
 

daffyrolls94

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Apr 17, 2023
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Yet that's what actually happens....

I have to ask...have you actually played this ('and' digested the information given)? As Stan5851 pointed out, they do not leave the mines. Sure, the supervisors may get that 'privalige' (from time to time) but no one else does. Do you even recall the task Dominique gives you on her work placement and why?
That's what would happen irl. Obviously I'm aware that it doesn't happen in the game or I wouldn't make the point I did. Follow your own advice wrt digesting info, imo.
 

daffyrolls94

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I find it absolutely hilarious how we as a community go full autist into every little detail of the story and the setting. I don't think I've seen it in any other thread here. I love it. Having said that, I'd recommend to not be too anal about it, or the setting might start falling apart.
Well my original comment was responding to comments treating the game world as a serious exploration of realistic possibilities but ain't like I got a problem with that. Altho I will admit to having a bit of a problem with people bringing real life morality into it.:HideThePain:
 

Stan5851

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Oct 18, 2019
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Hm, slight misundertanding here. I'm not including the society described in this game in the category of something that might work. For example providing food and shelter to miners within the mine itself would be logistical nightmare. Plus most of them would die from exposure to toxins. You'd spend more time hauling out corpses than minerals.


Training and then giving power to the people who hate them would be another reason the society wouldn't work. Empires recruited and deployed their auxiliary forces and institutions at their peripheries, not heartlands.
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The game explicitly portrays non-main chars as naturally - not just politically/discursively - inferior to the main chars. You're down with exploring that concept, but calling them 'biomass' is off limits? Sorry, I just thought that was funny.
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daffyrolls94

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It's not a question of whether such a model would work in reality or not - in the game setting of the KG world it works and it's quite enough. But my message was again not in defence of such a system, when children are taken away from their parents (even for good purposes), but that there are quite a lot of nuances of the local social structure that we don't know yet. Which you also mentioned, by the way. In particular, I think we have too little information about how all those millions of workers, who can't be miners alone, actually live.
If you're going to discuss morality in the context of a fictional universe then you have establish some sort of connection between it and the real world you actually inhabit, because the latter is where morality actually exists. Otherwise there's no point. The premises and conclusions are all determined by your acceptance of the fictional universe's self-referential reality, as opposed to its correspondence with the reality you actually live in. That's called "playing out a fantasy" in layman's terms.
As for the moral issues, nobody forbids you to express your thoughts as you want, but personally for me I don't find it appropriate (for myself) to compare even unworthy people with "biomass".
You think seizing children away from their families can sometimes serve a good purpose, and want to explore the ethical nuances of a social structure described in a bdsm snuff porn game. And then you - apparently - earnestly chastise others for calling people 'biomass', i.e the fictional people in that fictional porno fantasy. Maybe it's just me, but your moral philosophy is a deranged tangle of self-serving contradictions.<<<This is an actual ethical claim, since I'm talking about you and other f95 posters - real entities - in relation to a fictional scenario, not fictional entities in relation to each other.
 
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Stan5851

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daffyrolls94, I heard you, you heard me (but you heard what you wanted to hear, not what I was trying to convey), so this is the end of my conversation with you. There is nothing more to talk about here, otherwise we will slide into offtopic. Have a nice game.
 
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