RPGM Completed Karryn's Prison [v1.3.0.61 FULL + DLCs] [Remtairy]

[Neriel]

A sensible strategy and probably the only strategy that's close to being viable on day 1.

But I'm going to call bullshit too because you have 1 corruption. You only get corruption from buying accessories (which you can't because you don't have edict points left), from fighting the guards near the office (the chances of you having a nice rounded 900 gold in both screenshots after that fight are one in a billion) and certain edicts (which you can't buy because you have no points left). Maybe I'm missing something here, but I'm pretty sure those are all the sources of corruption in the game.

You always start with 1 Corruption.

 

[Nazzar]

It only takes a bad roll with a red Thug to ruin your day.

Its weird to see you acknowledge this, as the general impression i got was that you hold undisputed dominion over all things RNG.

Ok I would not fight in the Bar, since it is still a risk that you don't have to take but that woudl be hard to do in an argument, that is about beating the Bar Day 1.

That was the point of the exercise. The inconsequential barfight can be done day 1. Just not even remotely close to reliably enough, so that anyone would risk actually doing it in a serious prisoner run one intends to finish.

I never start with fixing my Income right away. I focus on making fights as easy as possible, to make farming on the First Floor easy

Those 2 sentences seem self-contradictory; how do you go about making fights easy without the bank to buy edicts or items?
Best long-term planning day1 start for any difficulty is firing the imperial guards, taking "self-paid equipment" edict then going to bed.
And that, ill fight anyone on.

 

[Neriel]

That was the point of the exercise. The inconsequential barfight can be done day 1. Just not even remotely close to reliably enough, so that anyone would risk actually doing it in a serious prisoner run one intends to finish.

You can beat the bar fight 1st day on Prisoner and no accessories?

Ok, I said how and why your magical, threading the razor's edge 19-29-39-49 Prisoner herobook, no losses, no halberd, armor or stat upgrades, all in one shot strains believability, and then i dropped it, but this one i will call you out on - you are full of it.
And im not talking about trying it until it eventually works out, no.
To fit with what you just implied, plus the espoused narrative from the herobook conversation, where you can calculate down to a hair's breadth all things RNG that may, could or will happen, you'll need to work beating the bar into an actual play you intend to finish. No re-tries, obv.
Your words: Prisoner. Day1. No accessories. Go for it, champ.

You called me out and I did it. Also I can repeat that feat. The only issue can be, if red Thugs appear as an example. So I can beat the Bar on Day 1. But just because I can, doesn't mean I would do it in a serious run, since it is a risk, that I will not take in a serious run. My original point was never "Hey I always go for Bar Day 1 in my runs!" I said

I can fight in the Bar 1st Day and not lose.

And that is what I did after you were calling me out on it. So can we just leave it be now. Talking about strategies is at least interesting but this is getting tiresome of getting called out on everything.

Those 2 sentences seem self-contradictory; how do you go about making fights easy without the bank to buy edicts or items?
Best long-term planning day1 start for any difficulty is firing the imperial guards, taking "self-paid equipment" edict then going to bed.
And that, ill fight anyone on.

To repeat myself. I make the fights easy, by buying the +10 Acc. Items for Agi/Dex (or in the Challenge Run you did Mind Training 1 and Healing Thoughts). After that I don't need any Fighting Edicts anymore since I am strong enough to farm on the First Floor. Prisoners and Goblins are easy enemies on the First Floor. The only dangerous enemy are Thugs and they only spawn in specific rooms.

And look, you can play however you want but why would I start with those 2 Edicts and go to bed? I would just be wasting a Day that I can train Karryn. And the gain would be what? 200 Gold? Well let's say 400 since Day 2 is only 1 Edict. Do your runs depend so much on those extra 400 Gold? And I am actually curious, because I like talking about strats so this is not meant in any disrespectful way, before somebody calls me out again.

 

[fdgftrtrwr]

View attachment 1873399
Can someone tell me how to fix this i have this problem and i dont know how to fix this

Is it Lenovo y580?

 

[Tw@Computers]

Which is the canon ending? if it's the pure one that would be an interesting twist

 

[Nazzar]

And look, you can play however you want but why would I start with those 2 Edicts and go to bed? I would just be wasting a Day that I can train Karryn. And the gain would be what? 200 Gold? Well let's say 400 since Day 2 is only 1 Edict. Do your runs depend so much on those extra 400 Gold? And I am actually curious, because I like talking about strats so this is not meant in any disrespectful way, before somebody calls me out again.

The going to bed isnt because you cant fight the first packs. Its because its detrimental to do so. Staggering floors 1 and 2 are your best bet to shore up you financial stability before the shitstorm that follows after clearing floors 2 and 3 at which point you are threatened with 2 riots/day. (which - again - "Riot chance arrow up/down" does jack for helping me plan out and resembles nothing close to how a proper risk management mechanic should be.)

In "training" your karyn so early on, you gain order, thus delaying the crucial sub 35 subsidiary breakpoint. The going to bed without fighting is to expedite getting to these lower levels. I continue with income increasing edicts and rest with no fighting unti day 4, where order is dropped to a safe, but very profitable 33. You can even let it fall to 15 for maximum gold gain, as long as you have the kitchen edict still ready for use, just in case.

Then, I start training on the first 2 packs of enemies, ever so slightly pushing order up, but not beyond the breakpoint, while getting stat increases. It takes no mathematician to calculate that - as opposed to your way - you'd not only lose on the day 1 +200gold, youd lose gold on day 2 because of only 1 edict allowed. And you'll probably have something more pertinent to do in day3, so it snowballs to alot more potential income lost.

In addition, you lose even more gold because you push your order higher by training so early, in a way youd never get your subsidiary breakpoints to their optimally beneficial levels for the floor. I use the first 2 floors to shore up my financial stability, because thats the only reliably safe point to do so.
Thats why in my "aspiring hero" save, i have full halberd strengthen+specialization upgrades going into the final boss, whereas you have 0 and no infrastructure to speak of.

I do not say "mathematically xxx" just as a phrase. I take a very clinical approach in any and all things, once i set my mind to do them proper. And out of all approaches the one i described for day1 wins over the alternatives, easy.

 

[Neriel]

The going to bed isnt because you cant fight the first packs. Its because its detrimental to do so. Staggering floors 1 and 2 are your best bet to shore up you financial stability before the shitstorm that follows after clearing floors 2 and 3 at which point you are threatened with 2 riots/day. (which - again - "Riot chance arrow up/down" does jack for helping me plan out and resembles nothing close to how a proper risk management mechanic should be.)

Well I actually agree with everything here said. With the exeption of that it is detrimental to fight Day 1 but we will get to that.

In "training" your karyn so early on, you gain order, thus delaying the crucial sub 35 subsidiary breakpoint. The going to bed without fighting is to expedite getting to these lower levels. I continue with income increasing edicts and rest with no fighting unti day 4, where order is dropped to a safe, but very profitable 33.

Well I can already tell, that you cannot stay to long on the First Floor if you on purpose let your Order fall that quick. My idea of farming is, to stay as long as possible on the First Floor to farm there as much as possible. So I need to keep Order at the start higher, so when the Control Penalty hits I can farm longer. Sure you are getting a head start but not so sure, if you actually come out with a + compared to me after leaving the First Floor, since I stay a long time on the First Floor. Would be interesting to know, which is more money effective.

Then, I start training on the first 2 packs of enemies, ever so slightly pushing order up, but not beyond the breakpoint, while getting stat increases. It takes no mathematician to calculate that - as opposed to your way - you'd not only lose on the day 1 +200gold, youd lose gold on day 2 because of only 1 edict allowed, in addition to losing gold because you push your order higher by training so early, in a way youd never get your subsidiary breakpoints to their optimally beneficial levels for the floor. I use the first 2 floors to shore up my financial stability, because thats the only reliably safe point to do so.
Thats why in aspiring hero save, i have full halberd strengthen+specialization upgrades going into the final boss, whereas you have 0.

Same point as before. I stay longer on the First Floor compared to you, so who knows, who makes more money.

I did not say "mathematically xxx" just as a phrase before. Im very clinical in any and all things, once i set my mind to do them proper. And out of all approaches the one i described for day1 wins over the alternatives, easy.

Easy over other alternatives? Nah, but always nice to see different approches working.

 

[Assassin3]

True, but this is a prison where the inmates apparently are all armed. So...?

Armed? I don't recall it mentioned anywhere in game or even on this thread that inmates were armed with weapons. Unless they have a gun point towards her head a little fucking shiv isn't gonna be enough to threaten her to obey their every command. We r talking about Karryn here, where she doesn't end up like a little weak bitch through out the entire game.

 

[Nazzar]

Well I can already tell, that you cannot stay to long on the First Floor if you on purpose let your Order fall that quick.
I stay longer on the First Floor compared to you, so who knows, who makes more money.

I stay on floor 1 and 2 up until *and* including the first day that goes over the limit and increases control loss by 1. So that cant be true, unless you deliberately stay on the same floor for days on end after your time limit, deliberately losing massive amounts of control points, for some unfathomable reason

I can and I have maintained order at 15 for maximum gold gain/day, and kept kitchen+guard edicts still ready for use as a backup, in case fighting isnt enough to push it. Which i can afford because of the surplus gold i have. So i still stand behind firing imperials, cutting costs and going to bed is the best deal one can take day1.

 

[Neriel]

I stay on floor 1 and 2 up until *and* including the first day that goes over the limit and increases control loss by 1. So thats not true, unless by some unfathomable reason you deliberately stay on the same floor for days on end after your time limit.

I can, and have, let order drop to 15 for maximum gold gain/day, and keep kitchen+guard edicts still ready for use as a backup, in case fighting isnt enough to push it. Which i can afford because of the surplus gold i have.

Yes, that is what I do on the first Floor. And why is it an unfathomable reason, to farm longer on the 1st Floor now? 1st Floor are no Riots, so I can let Order fall as low as I want because I don't have to worry a Riot happening, until the Point in which I would lose the game. Doesn't matter if I have a Control penalty of -10 and lose 20 Order a Day. If I have 25 Order, then I know, I can farm another day. Then I get Kitchen to extend that period just a bit longer. Then I proceed to the Boss on a Day, in which I only have 1 Edict point, so I have 2 Edict Points on the Second Floor right away for important purchases.

deliberately losing massive amounts of control points, for some unfathomable reason

You do know, that the Control Penalty resets, when you enter a new Floor? So why would that be a problem?

 

[Nazzar]

I dont want to crunch the actual numbers to prove it, but I assure you, maintaining a 15 order as of day 6 (until which point, youve only been selecting financial imrovements), with smart usage of control edicts earns you a massive net gain, as opposed to entering time limit control loss with combat edicts, having maintained ~60 order at that point (which is an overall severe loss in subsidiaries multiplier), so you can afford staying 4-5 extra days over me - again at a lower subsidiary multiplier - until you are forced out of the floor.

 

[Assassin3]

You can beat the bar fight 1st day on Prisoner and no accessories?

Ok, I said how and why your magical, threading the razor's edge 19-29-39-49 Prisoner herobook, no losses, no halberd, armor or stat upgrades, all in one shot strains believability, and then i dropped it, but this one i will call you out on - you are full of it.
And im not talking about trying it until it eventually works out, no.
To fit with what you just implied, plus the espoused narrative from the herobook conversation, where you can calculate down to a hair's breadth all things RNG that may, could or will happen, you'll need to work beating the bar into an actual play you intend to finish. No re-tries, obv.
Your words: Prisoner. Day1. No accessories. Go for it, champ.

I can backup on Neriel's claim on this one. Did it on the first try on prisoner mode, day 1 and without accessories. Possibly could've came down to RNG but I wouldn't know cause it was my first time attempting the bar fight on day 1. Take my word or don't, idc.

And about avoiding the Thugs.

Since when I started playing the game for the first time I've always avoided the inmates in the bar cause Karryn herself fucking said so when she enters the bar for the first time. In which at that very moment pretty much gives u the hint that enemy encounters r avoidable. Like seriously, how can plp be soo slow to catch on? Unless u completely skipped the dialogue then that's ur own damn fault.

 

[Sepheyer]

I can backup on Neriel's claim on this one. Did it on the first try on prisoner mode, day 1 and without accessories. Possibly could've came down to RNG but I wouldn't know cause it was my first time attempting the bar fight on day 1. Take my word or don't, idc.

And about avoiding the Thugs.

Since when I started playing the game for the first time I've always avoided the inmates in the bar cause Karryn herself fucking said so every time she enters the bar for the first time. In which that very moment pretty much gives u the hint that enemy encounters r avoidable. Like seriously, how can plp be soo slow to catch on? Unless u completely skipped the dialogue then that's ur own damn fault.

Thanks for the tip. I am one of those people on whom the option to pass through the bar was completely lost. I read the dialog, yet such nuance didnt register at all.

Welp, good to know.

Spoiler: Illustration

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[Neriel]

I dont want to crunch the actual numbers to prove it, but I assure you, maintaining a 15 order as of day 6 (until which point, youve only been selecting financial imrovements), with smart usage of control edicts earns you a massive net gain, as opposed to entering time limit control loss with combat edicts, having maintained ~60 order at that point (which is an overall severe loss in subsidiaries multiplier), so you can afford staying 4-5 extra days over me - again at a lower subsidiary multiplier - until you are forced out of the floor.

I would say more to almost 10 Extra Days with also almost 15 Extra Edicts. Also again. I only get Combat Edicts First Day. Not every Day.

 

[gzrtjhgtyhjljk]

I can backup on Neriel's claim on this one. Did it on the first try on prisoner mode, day 1 and without accessories. Possibly could've came down to RNG but I wouldn't know cause it was my first time attempting the bar fight on day 1. Take my word or don't, idc.

And about avoiding the Thugs.

Since when I started playing the game for the first time I've always avoided the inmates in the bar cause Karryn herself fucking said so every time she enters the bar for the first time. In which that very moment pretty much gives u the hint that enemy encounters r avoidable. Like seriously, how can plp be soo slow to catch on? Unless u completely skipped the dialogue then that's ur own damn fault.

I tested it as well. I bought the two edicts Neriel recommended, fought the two enemies on the way to the bar to level up a bit. I started the fight with no debuffs and level 3 character. The bar fight was 5 waves, with a total of 3 thugs. Karryn got knocked down several times, but there was no issue during the first 4 waves to use healing thoughts and revitalize. The fifth wave was the hardest. This thug knocked Karryn down several times and I had to use the two stances a bunch of times to get rid of the cooldown on revitalize. But in the end it wasn't that hard and I doubt that bad RNG will give you an unwinnable fight. I ended up with 30% pleasure and way more fatigue than Neriel.

One sidenote: not recommended for a serious playthrough because you take a massive load of fatigue.

 

[Nazzar]

I would say more to almost 10 Extra Days with also almost 15 Extra Edicts. Also again. I only get Combat Edicts First Day. Not every Day.

If you can afford going almost 10 extra days into the rapidly increasing control loss time limit, that means you went in with a greater order than ~60. Which snowballs into you having essentially no subsidiary income until that point.
Subsidiary increases arent flat numbers: the gain from going 75->50 order is proportionately far less than the one you get going 50->25. Your saving grace is having the extra edicts, but thats a questionable benefit with limited resources to spend them on.
The fact that i managed to maintain some infrastructure, *and* afford having both halberd tech trees maxed should serve as a point in favor of my method of financial management.

that very moment pretty much gives u the hint that enemy encounters r avoidable. Like seriously, how can plp be soo slow to catch on? Unless u completely skipped the dialogue then that's ur own damn fault.

...Whom are you even addressing? I hope its not me, as that'd mean you quoted that one paragraph out of context and read nothing before or beyond that.
Again:

I never fought the bar enemies in any of my games. Dont know why this became a narrative as i never once mentioned the bar.
More importantly, the game - in a very rare show of courtesy - actually *tells you* not to fight the bar when you first enter, so I wouldn't actually have grounds to say anything in the first place. The 2 thugs were located in the rooms above, part of a 3wave, using a basic prisoner sprite

I dont know why everyone keeps mentioning the bar fight, as i never once said "bar" in my initial run summary. The basis of the experiment was that no one intending a serious prisoner run - much less a challenge one - would ever fight the in the bar day1, assuming the more than likely failure there wouldnt be re-doable and youd have to finish the run as-is. And no one took that up. Instead everyone went for specific edicts and/or items targeted towards that particular fight and beelined for the bar, never intending to continue the game, which invalidates the whole premise.

 

[Sepheyer]

I'll almost feel guilty if i don't address at least some points in a 2-page debate for my benefit, so here goes:

It isn't. There is a difference between the crowds that look for saves and gallery - those are the ones who don't want to deal with gameplay, just look at the smut - and those that ask to cheat and edit. The latter clearly intends to play the game and not just watch pretty pictures, but cant deal with the egregiously antagonistic approach the game takes towards players.


Lets not sugarcoat it here: its not "some" information that's hidden. you're heavily downplaying it. The "tutorial" npc cover mostly basic stuff, nothing of substance. The useful things they are vague about and in 2 instances they outright lie to you.

Just some examples of vital information hidden: enemy stats, combat act order, actual numerical values for health, overblow protection breakpoints, basic damage estimates - like how the hell do i know the difference between slam and blunt attack's effectiveness?? Does cleave use different damage formula from slash? Does skewer have either higher or lower base chance to hit than thrust? Player is given nothing to make an informed decision about pretty much anything.

To say nothing of the extremely vague descriptions of edicts who express effects in arrows up or down, as opposed to anything you can clearly calculate or plan out. Just one example is "staff efficiency" - 0 explanation - its just there as a statistic. Riot chance arrow up/down? Well bully for me, that still does jack in helping me plan or calculate my odds. It resembles nothing close to how a proper risk management mechanic should be.

And do they say enemies level up for each riot that happens? I had to look at the code to learn that one. Thats just 1 example; most of the actually important stuff is only accessible if you scour the game files with a fine-tooth comb. All of this is on purpose. They even go the extra mile to design the game so that even if you simply defend yourself long enough, you will *still* turn out a massive whore. As i said before, they take the time to make fun of the player, saying that they are expected to repeatedly fail and game over, which goes way beyond an average metric of player antagonism.

And they know it. That is why their steam description of the game is so defensive: "the game is fairly unfair", my ass.


I'm gonna borrow the Elden Ring simile here to make a point. I'm not critiquing KP's difficulty. I'm saying that the game is hard for all the wrong reasons, hence why i said "poor design choices". Its hardships are tied to purposefully vague, timewasting and convoluted gameplay. Withholding information, forcing you to stumble blind, 1 failure at a time. And even if you fail, it does nothing to teach you what could've been done better. It just says "take whatever titles you got and try again".

KP is not difficult in the traditional sense of the word. Elden ring and Sekiro are difficult. I've finished Sekiro's mortal journey boss rush gauntlet. I know "difficult".
The fights are insane, their special moves come from every which way, can 1/2-shot you easily, have an excessively aggressive AI, demand split-second reaction time and a posture break mechanic that makes it unfavorable to the player to stall for time and turtle.

The great difference here and there is that no matter how stacked the odds, everything is dependent entirely on the player. All the game mechanics are laid bare and nothing is hidden. Its up to you to negotiate the difficulty through your own skill, reflexes and judgement. That i why there are videos of some maniacs who kill the last boss in FromSoftware games at level 1, with 0 equipment or upgrades. Because insanely difficult as it, success is still reliant solely on the player. THAT is what you can call "fairly unfair".
Can KP be finished without edicts and accessories? No. It intentionally denies player agency in what goes on inside the game.


Untrue. How many games posted in 07.2019 can boast 1284 pages? I'll tell you - not nearly close to that many. My speculation is that people are interested and *want* to play this, but they end up cutting their losses when they realize that learning the game will require them to live in its .js files for a couple of days first, break down and ask for cheats and edits or just quit instead. Like this person:

Or like me: I didnt feel gratification after finishing my plays. I felt like i spent far too much researching, learning and playing this, than I should've. For what it is, the artificially inflated learning curve required to play the game, siphoned far more time than is remotely reasonable.
Which, again, seems to support my initial argument.

Moving on to the thug thing:

And how is a new player supposed to know that?? Ok, you have that one npc that squats in the yard that warns about thugs. Big whoop - that does nothing to tell you how to avoid them. A metric for good game design is the ability to finish it successfully on your first attempt, with no prior knowledge, if you pay attention, manage your risks and make use of the various mechanics, tools and information made available to you.
How the hell is a player just starting the game supposed to know which packs have the gameover thugs in them? And not just walk straight out of the first 2 corridors of the game into a fight he cant possibly hope to win. More to the point - the sprites of the enemies have nothing to do with the actual enemies inside the fight. You can approach that goblin sprite and see 0 goblins. You can approach that prisoner sprite and eat 2 thugs.

Yet another example of a design choice that is purposefully vague and antagonistic towards the player. No experimentation or breathing room for failure allowed - take your rape scene and either try again, crippled with passives, which sets you up to fail later, but not before realizing that you are an inescapable downward spiral, several hours in.(word for word what the devs' cat actually tells you)
Or start over.

I have absolutely no idea what this sentence meant.
I made no absolute statements. I described my experience in an entirely neutral summary. And with regards to "playing to full potential" at the risk of sounding conceited, I'm fairly certain finishing 2 prisoner challenge runs puts me in the upper percentile of people playing this, meaning i *do* have an inkling of what i am talking about, so you shouldnt dismiss my views so entirely.


I never fought the bar enemies in any of my games. Dont know why this became a narrative as i never once mentioned the bar.
More importantly, the game - in a very rare show of courtesy - actually *tells you* not to fight the bar when you first enter, so I wouldn't actually have grounds to say anything in the first place. The 2 thugs were located in the rooms above, using a basic prisoner sprite, because , well, fuck me.


The "mathematical impossibility" i addressed was winning the fight that included two thugs+prisoner as its 2/3 wave. Again, not the bar. I was all of 5-6 level at the time with 0 accessories, and as stated in my summary, it was the absence of +10 accessories that made it hard.



You can beat the bar fight 1st day on Prisoner and no accessories?

Ok, I said how and why your magical, threading the razor's edge 19-29-39-49 Prisoner herobook, no losses, no halberd, armor or stat upgrades, all in one shot strains believability, and then i dropped it, but this one i will call you out on - you are full of it.
And im not talking about trying it until it eventually works out, no.
To fit with what you just implied, plus the espoused narrative from the herobook conversation, where you can calculate down to a hair's breadth all things RNG that may, could or will happen, you'll need to work beating the bar into an actual play you intend to finish. No re-tries, obv.
Your words: Prisoner. Day1. No accessories. Go for it, champ.

What a smooth writer. A pleasure to read such elegantly crafted sentences. Them fuckers are swaying like thicc mama's thighs, making the onlookers drool and their wives purple with raging rage.

 

[Neriel]

If you can afford going almost 10 extra days into the rapidly increasing control loss time limit, that means you went in with a greater order than ~60. Which snowballs into you having essentially no subsidiary income until that point.
Subsidiary increases arent flat numbers: the gain from going 75->50 order is proportionately far less than the one you get going 50->25. Your saving grace is having the extra edicts, but thats a questionable benefit with limited resources to spend them on.
The fact that i managed to maintain some infrastructure, *and* afford having both halberd tech trees maxed should serve as a point in favor of my method.

No, you just believe that it favors your method because you think, you have figured the game out. You don't even understand how my runs work very obviously. But keep judging.

I dont know why everyone keeps mentioning the bar fight, as i never once said "bar" in my initial run summary. The basis of the experiment was that no one intending a serious prisoner run - much less a challenge one - would ever fight the in the bar day1, assuming the more than likely failure there wouldnt be re-doable and youd have to finish the run as-is. And no one took that up. Instead everyone went for specific edicts and/or items targeted towards that particular fight and beelined for the bar, never intending to continue the game, which invalidates the whole premise.

Even if I would do it, how would I prove that exactly now? You would just be like "Mimimi I don't know if you fought Day 1 in Bar!" Or some other excuse. And the Bar thing brought the Person up, that was arguing with me. So ask them why they brought it up.

 

[Nazzar]

I am actually curious, because I like talking about strats so this is not meant in any disrespectful way

You expressed interest in discussing strategies, which i took on good faith and defended every point I made with actual arguments.

No, you just believe that it favors your method because you think, you have figured the game out. You don't even understand how my runs work very obviously. But keep judging.

Your response was one that essentially amounted to: "Thats not true and your thinking is wrong. [passive-aggressive addendum]."

...superb debate skills.

 

[NekoPi]

A sensible strategy and probably the only strategy that's close to being viable on day 1.

But I'm going to call bullshit too because you have 1 corruption. You only get corruption from buying accessories (which you can't because you don't have edict points left), from fighting the guards near the office (the chances of you having a nice rounded 900 gold in both screenshots after that fight are one in a billion) and certain edicts (which you can't buy because you have no points left). Maybe I'm missing something here, but I'm pretty sure those are all the sources of corruption in the game.

Lmao u always start with 1 corruption