Ah damn, I misread the post... I thought that was under the assumption that the "single scenes with hetero content" would have to be optional. Which is decidedly not what redknight is saying there.
That's the definition of the current lesbian tag... because whether it's up to the game producer to put the tag on or not if there are "minor deviations", then it won't make any difference to anyone looking, as the producer may find that a chapter The entire 1-hour flashback to the protagonist's high school days when she was sucking a cane field of dicks is just a "small diversion".
Well, I think tags in general should always have a tiny bit of flexibility. Definitively that 1-hour flashback of her starring the most generic straigth porn scene ever would be ridiculous, but for example having a protagonist who in the past dated some guy because that was what was "expected" of her, or because she thought that she was interested at first, but then she realized she's actually only interested in women, should apply for the tag. Even if you see a photo of her and that guy when they were together or something. It can actually make for an interesting story element, how she progressively discovered her actual sexuality or went against what was expected of her, etc.
Yep, that's my perspective too.
Right? I had hoped that the new
bisexual protagonist tag would tank the brunt of the issue, and a strict lesbian protagonist tag marked as optional would allow us to filter the good ones out of that pool.
The reason to hope is that he does at least show an understanding of the difference between an inclusive and exclusive tag - the lesbian tag is useless because it's treated as inclusive whereas it should be treated as exclusive - rather than a thing to be added when a scene with it is added, like a random fetish, it should always have applied only to games in which the protagonist is a lesbian. Not a bisexual, not bi-curious, not a straight girl who got drunk with her BFF one night and stuff happened, not a girl who can grow a magical dick when she's horny, a lesbian!
That's what bothers me, the chance of missing a perfectly valid game because of an absolutely rigid system that doesn't consider context. I myself say that this margin should be very thin, but without that margin existing you wouldn't even be able to tag as lesbian protagonist a story where a lesbian girl was forced to marry a guy (family pressures, "it's just a phase", etc.), but she finally faced her situation, ended the relationship, and started a new life with a girl. Not the most original story, but relatable, and very lesbian-centered.
That's a great example of something I'd be fine with being excluded. Sounds like a fine story, even one I'd be interested in. But we're not just talking about my or your personal preferences. We're talking about a tag that has to clearly communicate something to everyone that sees it.
But then how should the protagonist be tagged? Bisexual protagonist? She's not bisexual, she has never been. I would tag that character based on her feelings and actual sexuality, and not based on what she strictly did due to her circumstances, but I guess that applying that system to other games would cause a huge amount of mistagging based on the typical "lesbian girl" who never ever interacts with another girl and just gets raped by dudes, orcs of whatever. Ugh. So yes, I can understand the "absolutely strict" point of view too.
in theory this could be good but you have to remember on the page we are, one where 2 women kissing while having a threesome with a man makes it "worthy" of the "lesbian" tag, the tags here are based on content, not on story arguments.
This reminds me. What about a "straight girl" who is adamant she only likes men in a story where she's constantly and exclusively having sex with women? I've read a manga like that. Nobody could argue it isn't yuri.
That example would obviously be yuri xD.
I think The Celtic fan's idea to have both protagonist and route tags is the most elegant and intelligent solution to this problem I've seen so far. I really wish it was going to be the official solution. Anyway, if the game is about the MC discovering her sexuality and she ultimately ends up identifying as lesbian, the game could be tagged "lesbian protagonist" as well as "bisexual route." The bisexual route tag warns the player that the MC will have sex with both women and men at some point during the game (the absence of the "lesbian route" tag would show that men aren't completely avoidable), but the lesbian protagonist tag tells us what her true orientation is. Your idea of a story featuring a coerced marriage could have the same combination of tags...though I could see 262177's plot where a lesbian woman is forced to marry a gay man turning into a lesbian protagonist and celibate route buddy comedy on at least one of the paths.
So under The Celtic fan's system I think Naughty Lyanna would get the bisexual protagonist, lesbian route, and bisexual route tags. Would that be so bad? This combination of tags would convey the idea that Lyanna does have some level of intrinsic attraction to guys, but they can be avoided if the player chooses to do so. It might even help bisexual players who would totally identify with Lyanna discover a game they might otherwise have missed. Tags will likely always lack the nuance to tell us, "This game would strongly appeal to a lot of lesbian players and other people who particularly enjoy lesbian content despite having a technically bisexual protagonist" but that's a job that this thread could do in part. (We're definitely not going to let CBoyC95 retire just because we may be getting a better tagging system, right?)
I personally don't think this story as you've presented it should get the lesbian protagonist tag. Clearly the "straight girl" doesn't identify as lesbian and considers herself to be attracted to men. Perhaps she's simply in denial and will get there in the end, but otherwise I'd go with the bisexual protagonist and lesbian route tags for that one using The Celtic fan's methodology. This might seem like we're just arguing mere semantics and perhaps we are to an extent. Still, I think this matters quite a bit for roleplaying. If you want to play as a lesbian character, you're not going to be happy if the MC is constantly (or even occasionally) thinking about men in a sexual manner even if in practice she's not actually sleeping with any.
