Ren'Py Lessons in Love [v0.43.0] [Selebus]

[DeSkel15]

I see. Your points are well-substantiated and persuasive. I can certainly understand why you believe Otoha is worse. Moreover, I didn't remember Yumi being that much of a dick towards Futaba. I guess you tend to overlook the bad in your favorite characters (or these may be newer. I haven't replayed the game at all).

Then there's the aspect of the law. Otoha probably committed some sort of battery or domestic violence (by slapping Rin); I have no idea where exactly her actions would fall in Japanese law.
Whereas Nodoka almost certainly committed sexual assault.

I have seen someone mentioning that for us, players of this game, who know the context behind the character's actions, that recognize this is all fictional, what Otoha did is much more shocking than what Nodoka did. While I don't strictly agree, the idea holds merit. The fact that we're discussing this at all is the proof.

A girl slapping her girlfriend, cheating, and generally being an awful partner? Not even newsworthy. A minor sexually assaulting another one, forcing her victim to masturbate in front of her while she sucks off their teacher? National, no, possibly global news right there.

Sometimes, I wonder if this game has warped my common sense.

Of course, I do not understand the characters perfectly, especially Nodoka. But I can talk about my impression of them.

My impression of Otoha is that she is an immature, impulsive, dipshit teen. These aren't rare at all. These aren't particularly dangerous (unless in groups).

Whereas Nodoka, she's too unpredictable. Her in-universe intelligence enables her to create schemes that could cause extreme harm. Her likely psychopathy also allows her to have no external moral constraints, only those she herself constructed. In other words, she's highly dangerous.

The fact that she considers Sensei, an actual predator, as harmless is more than enough proof that her internal moral compass isn't to be trusted.

In a hypothetical situation, being positioned to profit immensely, the only condition is fucking everyone and everything over (possibly the very fabric of reality, as this is Kumon-mi); I'm afraid of what she would do.

I don't think Otoha would go that far.

As of yet, I'm not sure who's worse. Which is strange, for I feel something telling me I should. Which is why I believe this game has warped my common sense.

Honestly, I think a major issue for those who plan on replaying this game is seeing how the girls started. Yumi is definitely a fan favorite, but since she's so popular, her misdeeds are ignored, just like with celebrities, etc. Replaying the game will shove how awful she was into your face, and I'm sure that'll mindfuck a few people.

Legally, what Nodoka did is "worse" than what Otoha has done, but legality, common sense, morality, etc are all different things that depend upon one's environment and time period. Legally, Nodoka is also "better" than Otoha as well. She contributes more to society, likely understands the law far better, and if it came to it, she'd likely be proved not guilty for her crimes, while Otoha probably wouldn't. Them both being teens would likely help a lot either way, albeit a lot less so in Nodoka's case. While we're on the topic, Yumi is actually the only one that's committed a crime, and was punished by an authority for it. Assault and probably Attempted Murder in front of a class full of witnesses. Luckily for her, she's a teen princess.

Personally, I find both Otoha and Nodoka to be predictable. I get why they do what they do for the most part (good writing on Sel's part imo), and that's why I consider Otoha more disgusting. Of course, I likely see things different than others, as does everyone to different degrees. I don't see being "normal" as others have sold Otoha for being, as anywhere close to a desirable trait.

As for Nodoka, I'm leaning more towards her trying to keep those she cares about protected no matter the cost. Sacrificing everyone would leave Nodoka with nothing. I can definitely see her tossing the undesirables, and possibly even herself away, to attain the bigger "win" though. Nodoka knows she isn't worthy of a happy ending:

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and neither are Sensei, or Yumi. Of course, it'll depend on how things go. I don't doubt that if it comes to it, she'd sacrifice whoever to save those she actually cares about though, including herself. That might be the best ending we could hope for. I can also see Maya doing the same, and probably both Ami and Ayane, etc.

So far, I don't really think that anything Otoha will do, will matter that much in the grand scheme of things. Unless she convinces Rin to kill herself or something, then that'll probably have some affect. I could also see some Sekai influence being teased with the whole "Little Brother" stuff. Idk, the characters are easier to predict than Sel. I wouldn't put it past Otoha to use whoever then rationalize whatever to keep herself happy though. More or less already doing that with Rin.

"The word of the day is: Perception". Yeah, Sel wasn't kidding with that whole thing. Altering the reader's perception "willingly" is rather interesting, and I wouldn't doubt that is a goal behind this work, for better or worse.

 

[DeSkel15]

Random, but in retrospect, I think Nodoka may have found a loophole so that she could fuck Sensei with Futaba's blessing:

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Albeit, somebody better have been dying, or Nodoka intentionally hurt Futaba:

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and has no excuse for fucking Sensei otherwise.

I'm curious how Nodoka will rationalize this once it comes out. The other stuff I can "understand", but how exactly Nodoka processed this is either going to be quite interesting or quite disappointing.

 

[fdsasdf_p]

Help! Finished Voice of Vibration and I can't continue Miku's events. Well I probably can, but I can't figure out how. Help!

Miku love > 55 and visit her dorm on Sat; she will become unavailable for awhile after Voice of Vibration so just keep checking her dorm until the option appears.

 

[Bingoogus]

Honestly, I think a major issue for those who plan on replaying this game is seeing how the girls started. Yumi is definitely a fan favorite, but since she's so popular, her misdeeds are ignored, just like with celebrities, etc. Replaying the game will shove how awful she was into your face, and I'm sure that'll mindfuck a few people.

This 100% happened to me when i did my second playthrough a few months back, i'd forgotten so many scenes of Yumi being a complete cunt to Futaba, all i'd remembered it as is some minor picking on her, calling her fat at any opportunity, i'd forgotten all about the towel and showers bullshit.

 

[Wardtnaci]

Moar!!!

Spoiler: Preview pt2

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[JelF547]

Sorry, I'm back.
Knowing vs Understanding.

Nodoka knows she's fucked up when Futaba gets upset:

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However, she doesn't seem to understand why what she did caused her to be upset:

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Nodoka knew explaining to Futaba her logic behind the book would be difficult:

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But to her, all of Futaba's problems would be solved by simply not reading it:

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It's just a rectangle:

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She doesn't seem to understand why Futaba is upset.

In fact, Nodoka seems to have done this entire book thing for others like them, those who live for it:

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To her, it's likely meant to be a good thing, and isn't actually intentionally malicious.

Still, writing the book itself is definitely intentionally insensitive, which is the shitty part of this.

Anyway, Nodoka knows Futaba has insecurity issues, but I highly doubt she understands them. Nodoka doesn't seem to be capable of much empathy as she doesn't seem to think or feel the same as others.

Lets summarize it a bit. Your point is that Nodoka does not understand other people. My point is that she uses it as excuse to do what she wants against their will. And if Nodoka does not understand reasoning behind emotions of other people, it makes her actions only worse. I.e. if you know why something is bad, you do known when it is OK and when it is not OK to do it. When you don't know, you would "accidentally" hurt people.

It is not that hard to understand, that if you friend has real issues with being exposed, she would be hurt when you place her in a book. It does not require deep understanding of why she has that issues

PS
By the way, doesn't Nodoka & Futaba relationships look more and more like abuse?

 

[k1n5l4y3r]

Moar!!!

Spoiler: Preview pt2

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Niki as Suisei, it kinda fits, and moonman seens to be Sana afterall.

 

[Bingoogus]

Moar!!!

Spoiler: Preview pt2

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Lmao, the loli police department!

 

[DeSkel15]

Lets summarize it a bit. Your point is that Nodoka does not understand other people. My point is that she uses it as excuse to do what she wants against their will. And if Nodoka does not understand reasoning behind emotions of other people, it makes her actions only worse. I.e. if you know why something is bad, you do known when it is OK and when it is not OK to do it. When you don't know, you would "accidentally" hurt people.

It is not that hard to understand, that if you friend has real issues with being exposed, she would be hurt when you place her in a book. It does not require deep understanding of why she has that issues

PS
By the way, doesn't Nodoka & Futaba relationships look more and more like abuse?

Your point was actually: "Does it really sounds like

not understanding others

? It more like not give a single fuck about other's feelings when she does not want it"

However, if you're wanting to say that Nodoka takes advantage of not understanding others, then yeah, for sure. Nodoka takes advantage of practically everything she can. She very clearly takes advantage of Futaba's kindness:

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Nodoka can definitely be shitty, hence why she wrote the book knowing that others wouldn't want her to. To Nodoka, her wants are prioritized over the wants of others. It's how she expects others, even the likes of Futaba to think:

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This is what made Futaba cry. Nodoka just seems incapable of understanding her. Futaba can't get through to her:

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Yet to Nodoka, she seems to think she can't get through to Futaba. She thinks Futaba doesn't understand:

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This literally is a huge misunderstanding between friends, albeit, caused by Nodoka.

My point is it's more due to insensitivity than maliciousness. She simply didn't take their feelings into account instead of trying to hurt them. I can't hate her for that, but I do hate that she did this. If she doesn't feel remorseful for this, now that she's seen what it's done to Futaba though, then yeah, I'd say she's being an abusive friend.

 

[JelF547]

Your point was actually

Well, I also had a break to make my thoughts cleaner That discussion hit my sore spot a bit, sory for not being clean from start

My point is it's more due to insensitivity than maliciousness. She simply didn't take their feelings into account instead of trying to hurt them.

Okay, we are on the same wave here. The rest is just subjective.

By the way, I can see exact same thing in Otoha, but less intensive

 

[DeSkel15]

Well, I also had a break to make my thoughts cleaner That discussion hit my sore spot a bit, sory for not being clean from start


Okay, we are on the same wave here. The rest is just subjective.

By the way, I can see exact same thing in Otoha, but less intensive

Nah, Otoha was definitely taking Rin's feelings into account. She just didn't approve of them. That's why she wanted Rin to give up those she loves like nothing:

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And also seemed to find what Rin cares about, stupid:

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Recently though, she seems to hardly even care what Rin has to say:

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and seems to want to pretend her relationship doesn't exist, when it benefits her:

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[DeSkel15]

Yeah fuck it, Otoha's not even worth "fucking" as Tsuneyo would put it.

This seems to fit how I see her, after reexploring her "character":

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[Bingoogus]

Yeah fuck it, Otoha's not even worth "fucking" as Tsuneyo would put it.

This seems to fit how I see her, after reexploring her "character":

Spoiler

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All that shot does is make me want her to be tied up and forced to watch Akira NTR her.

 

[DeSkel15]

All that shot does is make me want her to be tied up and forced to watch Akira NTR her.

It definitely seems like it's being teased:

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Here's some inspiration for some fan arts lmao.

 

[wamzzz]

Moar!!!

Spoiler: Preview pt2

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Looks like I'm not the only one who's been playing a lot of Honkai: Star Rail

 

[fdsasdf_p]

Checking Ami's picture message in my good uncle save and oh boy what a dialogue variation this is
(I don't know how to pull out dialogues from texting so I made a slow gif to avoid pasting 30 snapshots)

I suppose it's a case where don't stick your dick in crazy actually makes the crazy crazier

 

[alex2011]

Since i came up with it and i did that because i read that here a couple of times.

Does anyone even know if Sel retconned something?
Some people pretended he did. Though i don't know of any examples outside of the ch1 rework and typos ofcourse.

I'd be rather interested in knowing if he did retconn anything besides what i mentioned and that being relevant enought to give people second thoughts.

The only retcon I'm aware of, and that's because it was something I strongly opposed about the rework, is the Ayane bathroom scene as it changes her character drastically and did so in an extremely blatant way as if the change had a neon sign pointing right at it to make everyone look in its direction. For this reason, I also maintain the original scenes as my headcanon, completely ignoring the new events as far as story connectivity and only looking at them in case something comes up later in a puzzle as Sel has been know to pull that.

I also suspect a retcon in the first gym class scene as I swear it didn't used to portray Yumi ridiculing Futaba in such a blatantly malicious way, which destroyed one of my argument points with DesKel earlier. I'll need to check this when I start over next time I play.

I see. Your points are well-substantiated and persuasive. I can certainly understand why you believe Otoha is worse. Moreover, I didn't remember Yumi being that much of a dick towards Futaba. I guess you tend to overlook the bad in your favorite characters (or these may be newer. I haven't replayed the game at all).

Then there's the aspect of the law. Otoha probably committed some sort of battery or domestic violence (by slapping Rin); I have no idea where exactly her actions would fall in Japanese law.
Whereas Nodoka almost certainly committed sexual assault.

I have seen someone mentioning that for us, players of this game, who know the context behind the character's actions, that recognize this is all fictional, what Otoha did is much more shocking than what Nodoka did. While I don't strictly agree, the idea holds merit. The fact that we're discussing this at all is the proof.

A girl slapping her girlfriend, cheating, and generally being an awful partner? Not even newsworthy. A minor sexually assaulting another one, forcing her victim to masturbate in front of her while she sucks off their teacher? National, no, possibly global news right there.

Sometimes, I wonder if this game has warped my common sense.

Of course, I do not understand the characters perfectly, especially Nodoka. But I can talk about my impression of them.

My impression of Otoha is that she is an immature, impulsive, dipshit teen. These aren't rare at all. These aren't particularly dangerous (unless in groups).

Whereas Nodoka, she's too unpredictable. Her in-universe intelligence enables her to create schemes that could cause extreme harm. Her likely psychopathy also allows her to have no external moral constraints, only those she herself constructed. In other words, she's highly dangerous.

The fact that she considers Sensei, an actual predator, as harmless is more than enough proof that her internal moral compass isn't to be trusted.

In a hypothetical situation, being positioned to profit immensely, the only condition is fucking everyone and everything over (possibly the very fabric of reality, as this is Kumon-mi); I'm afraid of what she would do.

I don't think Otoha would go that far.

As of yet, I'm not sure who's worse. Which is strange, for I feel something telling me I should. Which is why I believe this game has warped my common sense.

Heck, Yumi's my least favorite and I still missed it, though I'm starting to suspect a retcon was involved where I was looking at when defending Yumi. I still maintain my position, but I do see where, at least in the new canon, Yumi does seem to be going even harder and fully intending malice.

Nodoka committing sexual assault, which in the real world is held as a higher crime than bullying unless a death results from the bullying, turning it to murder, is why I still maintain my position. A slap isn't too serious, it would be so much worse if she beat Rin harder like punches and kicks, but yes, this can be counted as physical assault.

You're right about that kind of person, typical dipshit teens are not uncommon, in fact, they are becoming increasingly more common here in real life. This kind of thing is what happens when someone hasn't learned the value of right and wrong and that actions have consequences that can reach well beyond the initial target of the action in question, can be extremely damaging to everyone involved, and can last for a very long time if they ever go away at all. Combine that with impulsive behavior and you can get something like what happened with Niki.

As far as Nodoka's moral compass, you're right, she can't be trusted, but neither can Yumi or Otoha. All of them have shown an ability and a will to cause potentially harmful things.

All that shot does is make me want her to be tied up and forced to watch Akira NTR her.

That would make for a great first Rin scene, have him win Rin over while still together officially with Otoha, have Rin trick Otoha into the same room, then make a show of betraying her right to her face with Sensei in the worst possible way. That would either (A) really screw Otoha up mentally or (B) teach her a lesson she wouldn't be able to forget if she tried and possibly make it so traumatic to try the same tactics she did with Rin again that she might just become better as a person.

 

[DeSkel15]

The only retcon I'm aware of, and that's because it was something I strongly opposed about the rework, is the Ayane bathroom scene as it changes her character drastically and did so in an extremely blatant way as if the change had a neon sign pointing right at it to make everyone look in its direction. For this reason, I also maintain the original scenes as my headcanon, completely ignoring the new events as far as story connectivity and only looking at them in case something comes up later in a puzzle as Sel has been know to pull that.

I also suspect a retcon in the first gym class scene as I swear it didn't used to portray Yumi ridiculing Futaba in such a blatantly malicious way, which destroyed one of my argument points with DesKel earlier. I'll need to check this when I start over next time I play.


Heck, Yumi's my least favorite and I still missed it, though I'm starting to suspect a retcon was involved where I was looking at when defending Yumi. I still maintain my position, but I do see where, at least in the new canon, Yumi does seem to be going even harder and fully intending malice.

Nodoka committing sexual assault, which in the real world is held as a higher crime than bullying unless a death results from the bullying, turning it to murder, is why I still maintain my position. A slap isn't too serious, it would be so much worse if she beat Rin harder like punches and kicks, but yes, this can be counted as physical assault.

You're right about that kind of person, typical dipshit teens are not uncommon, in fact, they are becoming increasingly more common here in real life. This kind of thing is what happens when someone hasn't learned the value of right and wrong and that actions have consequences that can reach well beyond the initial target of the action in question, can be extremely damaging to everyone involved, and can last for a very long time if they ever go away at all. Combine that with impulsive behavior and you can get something like what happened with Niki.

As far as Nodoka's moral compass, you're right, she can't be trusted, but neither can Yumi or Otoha. All of them have shown an ability and a will to cause potentially harmful things.


That would make for a great first Rin scene, have him win Rin over while still together officially with Otoha, have Rin trick Otoha into the same room, then make a show of betraying her right to her face with Sensei in the worst possible way. That would either (A) really screw Otoha up mentally or (B) teach her a lesson she wouldn't be able to forget if she tried and possibly make it so traumatic to try the same tactics she did with Rin again that she might just become better as a person.

The Gym Bully stuff did seem to be edited in the rework, but as far as I can tell:

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The only thing new is Ayane stuff, and Sensei finding a crying Futaba with Chika.

It's the 'Super Secret Sex Dungeon' Main event in Chapter 1 if anyone else wants to check it out.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if Yumi was actually toned down in the Rework like Ayane was.

 

[Bingoogus]

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if Yumi was actually toned down in the Rework like Ayane was.

Well, my replay was after the rework and i found her to be much more of a cunt than i remember so either she's the same or worse, not better.

 

[ccxvidonaferens]

Forgive me for bringing this up if its been mentioned elsewhere, but I have just seen for the first time the event where Chika propositions Ayane for the threesome at the start of the Beach Wars and was hit by Ayane's immediate reaction (both expression and words) as it suggested to me that her mind had flashed back to the first Beach visit when she and Akira were caught in flagrante delicto and then joined by Kirin and the probable trauma/shame/embarrassment she may still carry from that.