Ren'Py Lessons in Love [v0.45.0] [Selebus]

[barglenarglezous]

That works for a kinetic novel, which has no, or very few, options to choose or puzzles to figure out. In this case, Selebus seems to favor putting the answers of puzzles into those uncomfortable parts of the game, seemingly in an attempt to get people to play those parts as intended considering their importance to the story.

I hate to say it, but I think the better option is to find a different game if the player is too uncomfortable with this one since the game is only going to get even more uncomfortable in the short to medium term from this point. We may even be looking at the beginnings of the truly dark parts of the game now.

The game was specifically designed to cause discomfort, that's what Selebus has been going for the whole time. He even admitted it not long ago right in this thread. People said that they were uncomfortable with the latest Halloween stuff and he came back and said that was intended as the reaction he wanted us to have to it. https://f95zone.to/threads/lessons-in-love-v0-20-0-part-2-patreon-selebus.48158/post-6869039

Since we have a replay system, it's safe to skip content if you need to get through it quickly for mental health reasons. You can always come back to it later if you need to for a puzzle, when you have the bandwidth and clarity to do so safely.

 

[Wafflewaffuru]

I'm quite possibly the dumbest person in the world, but the wiki's not updated so I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do.
I have called niki during the morning, she just eats sausage. it's not an event, during the day she says call back tomorrow, at night she doesn't answer cuz she's busy doing idol stuff. None of Ami's events trigger anywhere. I've invited her over, called her, gone to the maid cafe, gone to her dorm, Molly's stuff loops too. At the dorm it's just the normal whiteboard hangout. Can't call her, can't invite her over. I get the default thing when she's at the coffee shop.

 

[barglenarglezous]

I'm quite possibly the dumbest person in the world, but the wiki's not updated so I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do.
I have called niki during the morning, she just eats sausage. it's not an event, during the day she says call back tomorrow, at night she doesn't answer cuz she's busy doing idol stuff. None of Ami's events trigger anywhere. I've invited her over, called her, gone to the maid cafe, gone to her dorm, Molly's stuff loops too. At the dorm it's just the normal whiteboard hangout. Can't call her, can't invite her over. I get the default thing when she's at the coffee shop.

The Niki event is at night, but it's got to be a specific night. Saturday should work.
Molly's last event is in the dorms. It is likely night-dependent as well, but I don't know which one.

The Main events should start on the Friday after you complete those two events (Niki's may be optional, but you definitely want to do it before doing the Main events).

The Ami event is contained within the Halloween event itself, and will happen naturally if your Lust is high enough.

 

[alex2011]

Not gonna lie. My first read of "Molly has left the building" was that she had died.

And I would honestly be more surprised if we made it to next reset with the entire cast alive than I would be by Molly or Rin dying at this point.

Not that I'm saying I expect either of those to die -- I think either of those outcomes would be too predictable, and when someone DOES die, it'll be someone we wouldn't expect, and likely caused by a shocking or upsetting event.

I am very unsure if the whole cast will survive until the next reset, but it would give us more insight into the resets if one dies as it would answer the question of whether dead people get reset to being alive, remain dead, or just disappear from existence entirely and how living characters react to such a thing.

However, I am fully expecting people to start dying in the game, just in case. I know Denpa, I've seen where it leads, and I am not chancing my guard dropping so the effect is doubled.

Since we have a replay system, it's safe to skip content if you need to get through it quickly for mental health reasons. You can always come back to it later if you need to for a puzzle, when you have the bandwidth and clarity to do so safely.

The people who skip because they can't handle the content in an event would find the replay system useless because the replay system does just that, it makes you experience the event all over, which defeats the purpose of skipping it in the first place. The replay system would make them experience the very thing they were avoiding by skipping. This is why it is probably better to just find a different game if they can't handle it.

The replay system is more helpful to those people who either skipped for other reasons, missed something even with reading, or forgot a detail and didn't write it down, that third one meaning me because I was an idiot going into "There Is Nothing" the first time and didn't write the answers down when they came up before.

 

[MilkSerpent]

Everyone getting so freaked out over some creepy stuff in the (*shocker*) Halloween Event , and the irony of it got me lawling. It's a creepy and uncomfortable game, I just find it funny that players knowing this would be so put off when they get a nice fat dose of creepy and uncomfortable.

Ya'll shoulda known you were playing as the villain for a long time coming now. We been buckled in for this ride ever since we started shagging friend’s moms, preying on absent husband’s lonely housewives, molesting and manipulating teenage girls, fornicating our own flesh & blood, and banging friends of friends behind each other’s backs.
Although some of those blurred actions are optional if I remember right, if you have not partaken in any; we're prob not playing the same game.

But if you wanna white knight this shite, you oughta wait until the story is entirely reworked or sum, cuz up until now the main questline ain’t looking truly happy for Emerald Guardians and the like. Besides, it’s like they say: good homies finish last..
~Bad Homie 4 Lyfe~

 

[jackkane]

Selebus I'm just curious was the original sensei a monster too, or the one who took over his body the monster?

 

[xxsourapplexx]

Can someone please post a save file from 0.20.0 Part 1 for me. Preferably one that doesn't have the rin event crossed out. lost my old saves.

 

[CringyDeedsDoneCringCheep]

Should start automatically on Friday, if you're caught up on previous content.

i am but nothing happens

 

[Scarlett's nightmare]

It was meant to be disgusting, and no, Tsuneyo didn't break character, there's just more to her character than we knew. Revealing a new aspect may seem like a break of character, but it isn't.

Obviously it was meant to be disgusting. I said as much.

Funny you should say that about Tsuneyo, I thought about this last night. I am not sure you are correct there. I would hope there is more to the characters than what they are right now, because let's face it: Most of the girls are completely one dimensional in their presentation. So much so, that it must actually be on purpose. If you take Ami, she is barely even a person. There is no depth to her beyond her love to Sensei and she is obviously not the only one like that.

Fleshing them out only on occasions where an impulse is needed to for the story (like with Tsuneyo here) would be poor story telling. Maybe they are meant to be that way? Maybe not. It's ok to give him the benefit of the doubt, but it doesn't mean all feedback needs to be uncritical of the state of the game, does it?

 

[Scarlett's nightmare]

Can someone please post a save file from 0.20.0 Part 1 for me. Preferably one that doesn't have the rin event crossed out. lost my old saves.

There you go.

 

[alex2011]

Everyone getting so freaked out over some creepy stuff in the (*shocker*) Halloween Event , and the irony of it got me lawling. It's a creepy and uncomfortable game, I just find it funny that players knowing this would be so put off when they get a nice fat dose of creepy and uncomfortable.

Ya'll shoulda known you were playing as the villain for a long time coming now. We been buckled in for this ride ever since we started shagging friend’s moms, preying on absent husband’s lonely housewives, molesting and manipulating teenage girls, fornicating our own flesh & blood, and banging friends of friends behind each other’s backs.
Although some of those blurred actions are optional if I remember right, if you have not partaken in any; we're prob not playing the same game.

But if you wanna white knight this shite, you oughta wait until the story is entirely reworked or sum, cuz up until now the main questline ain’t looking truly happy for Emerald Guardians and the like. Besides, it’s like they say: good homies finish last..
~Bad Homie 4 Lyfe~

To be fair, this is a Denpa game and these may be people not used to that genre and just how dark it can get.

The problem with the MC seems to be more that the game outright acknowledges he's a bad guy, unlike most other games with a villain protagonist, which simply push it off for the porn. I don't see it as a problem, I'm just saying that seems to be the issue there.

It isn't looking truly happy and it may never be, this is a Denpa game, not some lighthearted slice of life.

Selebus I'm just curious was the original sensei a monster too, or the one who took over his body the monster?

We don't know and Selebus isn't the type to just give story details away outside the game. There are theories ranging from being controlled to split personality and even one where the one we see in game was someone else who got Isekaied.

Obviously it was meant to be disgusting. I said as much.

Funny you should say that about Tsuneyo, I thought about this last night. I am not sure you are correct there. I would hope there is more to the characters than what they are right now, because let's face it: Most of the girls are completely one dimensional in their presentation. So much so, that it must actually be on purpose. If you take Ami, she is barely even a person. There is no depth to her beyond her love to Sensei and she is obviously not the only one like that.

Fleshing them out only on occasions where an impulse is needed to for the story (like with Tsuneyo here) would be poor story telling. Maybe they are meant to be that way? Maybe not. It's ok to give him the benefit of the doubt, but it doesn't mean all feedback needs to be uncritical of the state of the game, does it?

There's really only two possible explanations with Tsuneyo, one of which I thought of after I orginally commented, and the more likely one seems to be a trait we just didn't know because she was hiding things. The other possibility is yet another case of the Denpa aspect, familiar characters acting in unfamiliar ways.

In a game like this, with a somewhat reclusive character like Tsuneyo and a genre known for doing odd things like the Denpa genre, it is very difficult to tell actual bad out of character moments, departures from the character's normal behavior that result from inconsistencies and mistakes, and moments that only seem out of character due to the genre rearing its ugly head or information the player doesn't know.

I'm not seeing what you're talking about, a typical porn game's characters are one dimensional, sure, but these ones are so well written they trigger genuine emotion, which for someone like me is extremely difficult for fiction to do. There is no 'fleshing out only on occasions where an impulse is needed,' they are meant to be this way, everything so far has been as planned except the occasional technical issue.

No, if he does something that isn't so well done, he needs to know, but he hasn't yet.

 

[ANTagonist]

Selebus I'm just curious was the original sensei a monster too, or the one who took over his body the monster?

Maya explains that its just Sensei jumping from one body to the next in a reset. If some Happy events are anything to go by there was a particular event that caused him to snap but before that he was almost the same. Just not as big a scumbag.

 

[DonTirri]

Ehhh. People getting uncomfortable here is a bit surprising. I saw that coming a MILE away. For all his creativity and storytelling ability, Selebus is awfully predictable when it comes to going for the darker aspects.

I knew Sensei would do something shitty to Molly several updates ago. The only question was when. And we got our answer.

Also, my theory about Tsuneyo: She was sexually abused by her father. The father is actually dead, Norman Bates style and Tsuneyo's personality is a PTSD coping one. And we saw a flash of that trauma when she walked into the room.

 

[Scarlett's nightmare]

To be fair, this is a Denpa game and these may be people not used to that genre and just how dark it can get.

(...)

No, if he does something that isn't so well done, he needs to know, but he hasn't yet.

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree then on that last point.

2 things though:

- You can't seriously think that the characters have depth in a literary sense? Yeah, the writing is good and they portray and convey emotion (mostly a singular one), but they are as cardboard as they come. Again, this may very well be intentional, but Ami or Yasu (as the worst offenders) are one trick ponies by definition. What has Ami done other than fawning over Sensei and being jealous in the last 2 years? Almost all cast have a singular role, conveying a singular concept. They are not "people". There is moments where LiL hints at more than that and it is then when the game really shines (Bluejay comes to mind and to a degree Ayane's... prior situation), but so far these are insular.

- I actually mentioned how limiting I find the "Denpa" excuse. It's like an all-purpose brush to swipe away any form of criticism and even if this is a game that strictly follows a "Denpa" structure, I don't believe it's a good idea to press your art into a rigid corset like that. But that's just me.

 

[alex2011]

Ehhh. People getting uncomfortable here is a bit surprising. I saw that coming a MILE away. For all his creativity and storytelling ability, Selebus is awfully predictable when it comes to going for the darker aspects.

I knew Sensei would do something shitty to Molly several updates ago. The only question was when. And we got our answer.

Also, my theory about Tsuneyo: She was sexually abused by her father. The father is actually dead, Norman Bates style and Tsuneyo's personality is a PTSD coping one. And we saw a flash of that trauma when she walked into the room.

Not really, it's designed to make people uncomfortable. If the game isn't making someone uncomfortable, either the person is completely desensitized or the game is failing to do its job. Considering some people have been made uncomfortable, I would say it is desensitization.

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree then on that last point.

2 things though:

- You can't seriously think that the characters have depth in a literary sense? Yeah, the writing is good and they portray and convey emotion (mostly a singular one), but they are as cardboard as they come. Again, this may very well be intentional, but Ami or Yasu (as the worst offenders) are one trick ponies by definition. What has Ami done other than fawning over Sensei and being jealous in the last 2 years? Almost all cast have a singular role, conveying a singular concept. They are not "people". There is moments where LiL hints at more than that and it is then when the game really shines (Bluejay comes to mind and to a degree Ayane's... prior situation), but so far these are insular.

- I actually mentioned how limiting I find the "Denpa" excuse. It's like an all-purpose brush to swipe away any form of criticism and even if this is a game that strictly follows a "Denpa" structure, I don't believe it's a good idea to press your art into a rigid corset like that. But that's just me.

No, they are far from 'as cardboard as they come.' The characters being so well written is part of why the writing is so good. Ami isn't a one trick pony and Yasu hasn't really had the screen time to judge her. These are the single closest characters to 'people' I've seen in a long time and the other cases of this are in projects by much more established and larger developers or other Denpa games. Even the second game to break me out of the 'it's only a game' logic, Harem Hotel, doesn't have the level of characters this does.

There is no 'Denpa excuse,' there is a specific structure that has to be followed for a game to fit the genre. Sure, there is a bit of leeway, but not that much. If he didn't 'press his art into a rigid corset' like that, the game would run the risk of failing as a Denpa game and failing to live up to the genre is a terrible place for any work to be, game or otherwise.

Extreme example, I know, but it would be like writing a story that is supposed to be science fiction only to put elves and orcs using magic into it. The science fiction story would end up fitting fantasy, not science fiction, but it would be classified as a science fiction story. This would lead to a failure on the author's part to live up to the genre of science fiction.

 

[DonTirri]

Not really, it's designed to make people uncomfortable. If the game isn't making someone uncomfortable, either the person is completely desensitized or the game is failing to do its job. Considering some people have been made uncomfortable, I would say it is desensitization.

I mean, you do have a point there. But predictability also removes the uncomfortableness. It's like the Resident Evil 1 hallway dog jump scare. When you know it's coming, it doesn't affect you.

Also, I personally didn't find the scene that disturbing. Mostly because it was pretty clear the Sensei himself wasn't in control.
Without all the HAPPYesque interludes it would've been a lot more uncomfortable. Atleat I personally don't get affected by something I have no control over and Selebus made damn sure that neither the player nor Sense himself had any say on how the events unfolded.

 

[Scarlett's nightmare]

Not really, it's designed to make people uncomfortable. If the game isn't making someone uncomfortable, either the person is completely desensitized or the game is failing to do its job. Considering some people have been made uncomfortable, I would say it is desensitization.


No, they are far from 'as cardboard as they come.' The characters being so well written is part of why the writing is so good. Ami isn't a one trick pony and Yasu hasn't really had the screen time to judge her. These are the single closest characters to 'people' I've seen in a long time and the other cases of this are in projects by much more established and larger developers or other Denpa games. Even the second game to break me out of the 'it's only a game' logic, Harem Hotel, doesn't have the level of characters this does.

There is no 'Denpa excuse,' there is a specific structure that has to be followed for a game to fit the genre. Sure, there is a bit of leeway, but not that much. If he didn't 'press his art into a rigid corset' like that, the game would run the risk of failing as a Denpa game and failing to live up to the genre is a terrible place for any work to be, game or otherwise.

Extreme example, I know, but it would be like writing a story that is supposed to be science fiction only to put elves and orcs using magic into it. The science fiction story would end up fitting fantasy, not science fiction, but it would be classified as a science fiction story. This would lead to a failure on the author's part to live up to the genre of science fiction.

I can understand your stance regarding sticking to a genre, but I think you are overselling the rigidness of the corset of a Denpa game. Let's not hide behind structure and pretend he "needs" to make Sensei the way he is - as if that wasn't his design choice. It's Selebus's decision to decide how much leeway he wants and needs in his story.

I can't really argue against your stance on Ami, since all you are basically saying is that "No, she isn't!". I guess, my reply will have to be "Yes, she is!". Portraying emotion =/= depth. I am glad you like it, I really am. Is it ok if my opinion is more nuanced than that?

 

[Arato23]

so uh.. does the rape tag need to be added now?

 

[alex2011]

I mean, you do have a point there. But predictability also removes the uncomfortableness. It's like the Resident Evil 1 hallway dog jump scare. When you know it's coming, it doesn't affect you.

Also, I personally didn't find the scene that disturbing. Mostly because it was pretty clear the Sensei himself wasn't in control.
Without all the HAPPYesque interludes it would've been a lot more uncomfortable. Atleat I personally don't get affected by something I have no control over and Selebus made damn sure that neither the player nor Sense himself had any say on how the events unfolded.

That's the thing with this game, I've tried to predict what would happen and failed each time I tried. That's why I always say to keep your guard up in case Selebus releases something truly horrifying so that the effect isn't doubled. The RE1 dog scare is the same every time, it is one specific encounter presented a specific way. Each update of this game, however, can prove to be vastly different in a number of aspects. The last few updates have seen a pretty large shift in tone that serves as my reason to believe we are heading into some truly dark territory. I just hope I'm wrong as usual, I am not prepared for the truly dark part yet.

I'm thinking there might be a case of desensitization going on here, not a bad thing necessarily, but over time we begin to adapt to things we are repeatedly subjected to and that desensitization doesn't go away very easily.

I can understand your stance regarding sticking to a genre, but I think you are overselling the rigidness of the corset of a Denpa game. Let's not hide behind structure and pretend he "needs" to make Sensei the way he is - as if that wasn't his design choice. It's Selebus's decision to decide how much leeway he wants and needs in his story.

I can't really argue against your stance on Ami, since all you are basically saying is that "No, she isn't!". I guess, my reply will have to be "Yes, she is!". Portraying emotion =/= depth. I am glad you like it, I really am. Is it ok if my opinion is more nuanced than that?

I'm not, Denpa developers don't have much room to work with, that's why Denpa games aren't vastly different from each other. There ARE differences, of course, just not huge ones. Take Doki Doki Literature Club for example, it isn't that different from this game aside from quality. It's a very good game, of course, but not as good as one like this. I was easily able to dodge the inability to keep to the 'it's just a game' logic with that one, which I could not with this game.

LiL and DDLC differ in their story elements, but look at what intersects. I will use one character each to compare. Let's take Yuri from DDLC and Rin from LiL, they have something in common and this is something that is universal throughout the genre, even VNDB acknowledges this is part of what makes a Denpa game. We get to know both characters for a little while before someething seemingly out of character happens, spoilers for the next part, be warned. In DDLC, we see Yuri stab herself to death due to the influence of a certain someone. In LiL, we see Rin blow up at Molly and get extremely fixated on Otoha due to previous event and it seems potentially from outside influence as well, one of the gods may be pushing her to do this, though that is speculation.

This 'familiar characters acting in unfamiliar ways' aspect is what defines Denpa against the other horror subgenres and I now believe it, as of the gap between my last comment and yours, in which time I took a look at the Tsuneyo thing via replay, to be playing a part there as well, just like it did with Rin.

Sensei is just the way he is because Selebus wanted a villain protagonist, and let's not kid ourselves, Sensei IS a villain protagonist contrary to what some might think, albeit not that big of one in comparison to others. He is a protagonist we are meant to be disgusted by, to hate, to get angry at in my case.

Yeah, it is Selebus who gets to decide where he goes with the story, but he does have certain things that, if he does them, he will hurt the game as far as its connection to the genre he is shooting for. It was his idea to shoot for a Denpa game in the first place and he, seemingly a Denpa veteran like myself, already knows what he can and cannot get away with while coming out with the best result for a Denpa game. If he did those things he needs to avoid with this genre, he would still have an excellent game in general, but it would be a terrible Denpa game.

That's the thing, and this may be a point we just inherently cannot agree on. Where you only see portrayed emotion, some of us see depth of character. Ami is a girl who has been deeply hurt by the loss of her parents and may have been in a forbidden relationship before that loss. She is now taking that out on Sensei. She is also proving to be an extremely selfish and dangerously possessive girl, taking issue at even having other girls come over to the house on a simple invite that has no obvious sexual or romantic purpose and it is definitely because Sensei is involved. She's showing extreme potential to be a yandere, an extremely deadly kind of character if Sensei ever gets caught by her doing anything romantic or sexual with someone else. This dangerous level of possessiveness seems to have formed as a coping mechanism for the loss she endured.

so uh.. does the rape tag need to be added now?

No, I don't think it does, but I'm not sure exactly what qualifies. F95 tags are weird that way.

 

[DonTirri]

That's the thing with this game, I've tried to predict what would happen and failed each time I tried. That's why I always say to keep your guard up in case Selebus releases something truly horrifying so that the effect isn't doubled. The RE1 dog scare is the same every time, it is one specific encounter presented a specific way. Each update of this game, however, can prove to be vastly different in a number of aspects. The last few updates have seen a pretty large shift in tone that serves as my reason to believe we are heading into some truly dark territory. I just hope I'm wrong as usual, I am not prepared for the truly dark part yet.

I'm thinking there might be a case of desensitization going on here, not a bad thing necessarily, but over time we begin to adapt to things we are repeatedly subjected to and that desensitization doesn't go away very easily.

i think the core issue here is we both see thinks differently. I've been able to predict the whats if not the whens and hows, while you've constantly predicted wrong. Thus I feel that the uncomfortability-level of the game is rather low, while you seem to feel that it is quite high. We are both tied by our own perspective.

And yes, desensitization is a possibility. But I don't see how it's relevant as if the game was truly intenting to be offputting and uncomfortable, even the most jaded fucker would be so. I get uncomfortable on things. Just not this thing.

That's the thing, and this may be a point we just inherently cannot agree on. Where you only see portrayed emotion, some of us see depth of character. Ami is a girl who has been deeply hurt by the loss of her parents and may have been in a forbidden relationship before that loss. She is now taking that out on Sensei. She is also proving to be an extremely selfish and dangerously possessive girl, taking issue at even having other girls come over to the house on a simple invite that has no obvious sexual or romantic purpose and it is definitely because Sensei is involved. She's showing extreme potential to be a yandere, an extremely deadly kind of character if Sensei ever gets caught by her doing anything romantic or sexual with someone else. This dangerous level of possessiveness seems to have formed as a coping mechanism for the loss she endured.

Honestly? Ami, Noriko and Ayane are almost interchangeable to a degree. The defining trait of all three is their obsessive love for Sensei. and that is the beginning and the end of their character and personality. Sure, there are slight flavor-differences like Ami's yandere-traits, Ayane's bold opennes and Norikos inferiority complex to Niki. But the bottom line on all three is that they are obsessed with the Sensei and everything they do or say stems from that. I find that shallow, one-dimensional and quite frankly, downright boring.

You CAN do love for the Sensei without making it one-dimensional and boring. Chika is a good example. She is a multi-faceted character despite being head over heels with the Sensei. Her sense of responsibility for Chinami, friendship with Yumi and awkwardness over Rin make her a lot more fleshed out that the Obsessive Trio.

Speaking of Yumi, she is easily the most interesting character in the game. She is clearly broken, but under that bully tough girl mask we see flashes of an actual person. One who suffers from abandonment issues but still finds herself drawn to the Sensei. The moments she shows vulnerability are some of the best moments in the game.

... Now that I think about my favorite girls are the ones who aren't immediately worshipping the ground Sensei walks on. Yumi. Maya (Even if there is history there) and Sana.

The obsessive trio is just boring and irritating. The Lesbian clique (Rin, Otoha, Molly with Tsuneyo and Futaba as auxiliaries) is quickly wearing out its welcome with me.