Ren'Py Lessons in Love [v0.45.0] [Selebus]

[Jimbolance]

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It was in one of the What is/was/could of been events I think? Sensei and Ami are walking together talking about Noriko ( I think she's there too?)

 

[Wardtnaci]

And before you say Makoto - she's the most malevolent and self-centered human character in the game. Fight me.)

Not trying to fight you on this, I can see Makoto being like that. I get the feeling that she's insecure which has lead her to have a need to control the situation she finds herself in. But being the most malevolent and self-centered while Nodoka is in the picture, I can't agree with.

It was in one of the What is/was/could of been events I think? Sensei and Ami are walking together talking about Noriko ( I think she's there too?)

Not sure if the event was named What Is or What Was, but I do remember that event where Akira and Ami are walking together and then joined by Noriko.

Does anyone know if that was a Ch.2 Main or Ami event? And the name of said event.

EDIT: It was the Ch.2 Main Event "What Was"

 

[Jimbolance]

Not sure if the event was named What Is or What Was, but I do remember that event where Akira and Ami are walking together and then joined by Noriko.

Does anyone know if that was a Ch.2 Main or Ami event? And the name of said event.

Just went and checked, Ch.2 Main Event " What Was", this interaction

 

[vehemental]

Not trying to fight you on this, I can see Makoto being like that. I get the feeling that she's insecure which has lead her to have a need to control the situation she finds herself in. But being the most malevolent and self-centered while Nodoka is in the picture, I can't agree with.

We can revisit this if Nodoka ever intentionally Bluejays in front of someone else. I get that perhaps that scene was injected into the game for cheap shock value and might not have been very well thought out, but you don't do that shit right in front of someone else unless something is either deeply, horrifyingly wrong with you, or that person fucked you up in some unimaginably horrible way.

Ruined her forever for me.

 

[barglenarglezous]

Amusing interpretation that is also probably incorrect.

Nozomu fucked the world into existence. Does that mean Nozomu is both Sekai's father AND her husband?

 

[barglenarglezous]

We can revisit this if Nodoka ever intentionally Bluejays in front of someone else. I get that perhaps that scene was injected into the game for cheap shock value and might not have been very well thought out, but you don't do that shit right in front of someone else unless something is either deeply, horrifyingly wrong with you, or that person fucked you up in some unimaginably horrible way.

Bit of column A and a bit of column B.

 

[alex2011]

I don't majorly disagree with anything you said, just my point was more about what Sel's purpose of having such a normal girl in the cast was. It really couldn't /just/ be to fill out a checklist or balance things out. She's a main girl, she's going to have some kind of arc, so I was just guessing where he intended to go with it.

We're probably going to be witness to the game world breaking her down as opposed to the others who already have something going on, that could very well be part of her purpose.

 

[KnowNoHope]

(And before you say Makoto - she's the most malevolent and self-centered human character in the game. Fight me.)

We can revisit this if Nodoka ever intentionally Bluejays in front of someone else. I get that perhaps that scene was injected into the game for cheap shock value and might not have been very well thought out, but you don't do that shit right in front of someone else unless something is either deeply, horrifyingly wrong with you, or that person fucked you up in some unimaginably horrible way.

Ruined her forever for me.

I will cause you got makoto all wrong my guy. She was driven to prove how much she is not her mother or like her mother, she is ashamed for being involved in anyway with the sex industry, to the point she is out right ashamed of her sexuality. this is why she is not 'normal'. she is not malevolent or self centered, she does things for other people all the time, she plans parties, she basically teaches the class, she organizes every beach event, she covers for other peoples mistakes so they dont get left behind or kicked out of school though it pisses her off for having to do it in the first place she still does it. that is the act of a selfless person that is pissed they have to be the responsible one cause no one else will even try. If you wanted to get into the dark part of makoto; she tried to off herself in front of sensei after she lost a massive part of her identity and embraced her sexuality( which is why i think it was decently thought out), where she suddenly started to identify with her mother in what she saw as the worst way possible whom she both loathes and loves(though i think she hates her way more ). Then you have the news about her dad, in which everything that made makoto who she was, before sensei started banging her, was built around her idolized version of her father. Makoto is probably the second best written girl IMO after Yumi because everything about her and her personality can easily be explained by everything in her life.

edit: she blue jayed in front of sensei cause it was him that made her lose her identity or self image. it was sensei that made her into a whore in her eyes, a whore just like her whore mother. (not my opinion of maki)

 

[derekthered56]

We can revisit this if Nodoka ever intentionally Bluejays in front of someone else. I get that perhaps that scene was injected into the game for cheap shock value and might not have been very well thought out, but you don't do that shit right in front of someone else unless something is either deeply, horrifyingly wrong with you, or that person fucked you up in some unimaginably horrible way.

Ruined her forever for me.

Ditto what barglenarglezous said. It was a terrible thing to do but I'd hardly call a suicidally depressed teenager "malevolent". Especially compared to Kirin and Nodoka who have planned out blackmail and rape plots in advance.

 

[vehemental]

I will cause you got makoto all wrong my guy. She was driven to prove how much she is not her mother or like her mother, she is ashamed for being involved in anyway with the sex industry, to the point she is out right ashamed of her sexuality. this is why she is not 'normal'. she is not malevolent or self centered, she does things for other people all the time, she plans parties, she basically teaches the class, she organizes every beach event, she covers for other peoples mistakes so they dont get left behind or kicked out of school though it pisses her off for having to do it in the first place she still does it. that is the act of a selfless person that is pissed they have to be the responsible one cause no one else will even try. If you wanted to get into the dark part of makoto; she tried to off herself in front of sensei after she lost a massive part of her identity and embraced her sexuality( which is why i think it was decently thought out), where she suddenly started to identify with her mother in what she saw as the worst way possible whom she both loathes and loves. Then you have the news about her dad, in which everything that made makoto who she was, before sensei started banging her, was built around her idolized version of her father. Makoto is probably the second best written girl IMO after Yumi because everything about her and her personality can easily be explained by everything in her life.

edit: she blue jayed in front of sensei cause it was him that made her lose her identity or self image. it was sensei that made her into a whore in her eyes, a whore just like her whore mother. (not my opinion of maki)

What you refer to as selfless behavior could potentially be interpreted as a

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- this being a psychological horror after all. I've never really known what level of analysis to use on this game so I don't know if this is valid or not, but I've met truly selfless people, and they're not the type to tell someone repeatedly to "look at them more" or eagerly compete with their best friend over something they both wanted. "Selfless" better describes Futaba IMO which might be why it's also the name of one of her events

I'm also not talking whether Bluejay was justified or not, I'm talking how she did it. I don't normally get into grading other people's trauma (even when they're fictional characters) but once you drag other people into it and inflict your demons upon them, it becomes fair game in my mind. So I'm sorry, but what Sensei "did" to her - repeatedly spurning her advances to the point SHE "basically blackmailed" HIM into finally fucking her - does not justify her Bluejaying in front of him.

Telling him to close his eyes was a pathetic attempt at distancing her actions from the long-term consequences he would (presumably, from her perspective) carry with him for the rest of his life. The sound a body makes as dozens of bones crunch on concrete below and the sight afterwards is a lot more visceral and traumatizing than simply seeing someone jump off of a high place.

All she had to do was ask Sensei if she could be alone for a while on the rooftop and do it after he left and I'd agree more with everything you said.

Again - I don't have enough faith in Selly to say for sure whether this interpretation was intended, or whether the scene was just poorly written and most other people just took it at face value, so ultimately it can only be decided in the future if she continues to develop in the way I described or in the way you described.

 

[Dragon59]

Question time, cause i'm bored.

Who do you think is the most well written character? Not potentially counting Akira, and not who you necessarily like or hate the most, just the one with the most depth and complexity in their characterisation.

No answer time, because I'm not bored and it is not my job to keep you enrtertained.

 

[KnowNoHope]

What you refer to as selfless behavior could potentially be interpreted as a

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- this being a psychological horror after all. I've never really known what level of analysis to use on this game so I don't know if this is valid or not, but I've met truly selfless people, and they're not the type to tell someone repeatedly to "look at them more" or eagerly compete with their best friend over something they both wanted.

I'm also not talking whether Bluejay was justified or not, I'm talking how she did it. I don't normally get into grading other people's trauma (even when they're fictional characters) but once you drag other people into it and inflict your demons upon them, it becomes fair game in my mind. So I'm sorry, but what Sensei "did" to her - repeatedly spurning her advances to the point SHE "basically blackmailed" HIM into finally fucking her - does not justify her Bluejaying in front of him.

Telling him to close his eyes was a pathetic attempt at distancing her actions from the long-term consequences he would (presumably, from her perspective) carry with him for the rest of his life. The sound a body makes as dozens of bones crunch on concrete below is a lot more visceral and traumatizing then simply seeing someone jump off of a high place.

All she had to do was ask Sensei if she could be alone for a while on the rooftop and do it after he left and I'd agree more with everything you said.

Again - I don't have enough faith in Selly to say for sure whether this interpretation was intended, or whether the scene was just poorly written and most other people just took it at face value, so ultimately it can only be decided in the future if she continues to develop in the way I described or in the way you described.

meh you are free to your interpretation of Makoto, but i think there was more than enough evidence to support the argument I made towards her personality.
I also was not trying to justify the decision to bluejay, but provide an analytical look into why she would do it in front of sensei. from her perspective she didnt drag sensei into her suicide. sensei dragged her to suicide. also it was sensei that always 'advanced' onto her till her mental defenses broke down and she begged for it. this goes back to her hating her own sexuality. she deny's it till her willpower is forcibly broken like a dam and when she has post squirt clarity she hates herself and the person that did this to her is very clear. she wants to be desired for her mind and her capabilities and all she is... is a sexual play toy. the only time sensei ever even looks at her or cares is when he looks at her with lust, she no longer even values herself because her value was always determined by how others see her and she now sees herself as a useless whore because of sensei.
edit: those feelings from makoto are very clearly portrayed in the scene where sensei is sitting on her bed with her after her dad died. if you fail to get the correct scene i believe. stood out to me cause i fucked that up and had to redo the game for that one.

 

[ohfk2]

I'm stuck at a happy event, lots of options one is a laptop, it asks for a terminal number, i'm fairly sure i need it to progress. Anyone know what it is?

TIA

 

[vehemental]

also it was sensei that always 'advanced' onto her till her mental defenses broke down and she begged for it. this goes back to her hating her own sexuality. she deny's it till her willpower is forcibly broken like a dam and when she has post squirt clarity she hates herself and the person that did this to her is very clear.

Is this really a fair characterization of their dynamic, or would this be her shoveling the blame for the traits of hers she might not enjoy onto someone else? Where is it written that she denies it so many times? I know she begged for it more than once - which didn't do it. She had to "basically blackmail" him:

s "So, how does it feel not being a virgin anymore? Any different?"
mak "Not as different as I thought it would feel. I’m happy we went through with it, though."
s "You mean how you basically blackmailed me into deflowering you while you were drunk?"

mak "I did what I had to do, Sensei. "
mak "If I left it up to you, you’d have probably held off until I was in college. I don’t have that kind of time."
s "You definitely do have that kind of time, though."

That doesn't sound like either the victim in this scenario (not to say Sensei is, lol) or someone who hates herself after the fact in the way that you describe.

she wants to be desired for her mind and her capabilities and all she is... is a sexual play toy. the only time sensei ever even looks at her or cares is when he looks at her with lust, she no longer even values herself because her value was always determined by how others see her and she now sees herself as a useless whore because of sensei.

Sure, but this would be her creation. Like her or not, the entire rest of the class looks up to her as the real teacher in the room. Wakana would kill to have her in her class. All of their opinions are only worthless in this matter because she's so self-centered that she can only think about the thing she wants but isn't getting - Sensei's undivided attention. Taking care of everyone is a means to get that attention, not an end in itself, which is why she gets pissed off every time she has to do more. Wouldn't someone who was in it for love of the game go the extra mile without complaint?

---

I'm going to augment your argument by bringing up the denpa aspect. People of both sexes here are obviously not fully themselves, and are clearly being manipulated by outside forces whose motives include creating the ultimate harem sim we don't fully understand yet. Look no further than girls lining up for Sensei despite him having the rizz and personality of a wet rock (I almost said noodle, but you know who that would actually be appealing to). So her newfound sexuality isn't all her own, which would lend credence to her potential hatred of it.

I think it's pretty clear the denpa waves are also increasing social isolation between every character but Sensei so he can more effectively divide and conquer, which may be partly why Rintoha blew up so easily. It's a pretty severe bump to have impacted a mother/daughter relationship so drastically this early in the process, but maybe it's played a part.

I mean let's face it, Maki isn't exactly the most horrible mom in the universe. Yeah she's absent-minded, aggressively sexually liberated, and might have dragged her daughter into the seedy world of selling porn, but she loves Makoto a lot. Deriding her as such a whore while deifying her dad, who as it turns out was the much bigger manwhore of the two, just sounds like another example of Makoto shoveling all of the bad traits of one person onto another because that's the one she picked to love.

---

It was never that she was malevolent to everyone, she just directs it towards Sensei and, as you say, her mom. And since she's performed these deranged mental gymnastics to the extent that she plans out in advance to Bluejay right in front of Sensei, is it not fair to characterize her as more malevolent than Nodoka and Kirin, who are just trying to get off and don't understand consent; Tsukasa, who's gigaspoiled and just likes to fire people; and Yumi, who just wanted to help Futaba stand up for herself the only twisted way she knew how and is now actively pursuing redemption?

Your argument boils down to her performing Simone Biles-level mental gymnastics to shift the blame onto other people for the problems of herself and the two people whose attention she's always craved. Maybe this was as intended - as I said, only the future will tell for sure.

But when we think of her as a covert narcissist, it's basically the same thing, just more refined and sinister in a way that Bluejay alone justifies. The mental gymnastics to center herself as the victim in every interaction is a hallmark of narcissism, and so is inflicting her trauma on other people - again, you don't Bluejay in front of someone unless you want them to remember it forever.

Maybe she was meant to be merely childish and petty, but normally high school age characters in anime are written with way more depth and character than actual high schoolers normally have, and at least one of the characters in the class might be a literal 5,000 year-old wizard because of the time loops, so I'm loath to so easily trivialize her behavior.

But again, it's not as if I have the full faith in the writing quality sufficient to guarantee this was intended.

What the fuck is wrong with me for writing all this shit? Go the fuck to sleep you fucking idiot, jesus everloving christ almighty, no one's going to fucking read it anyway you absolute wanker
Also never combine weed with ADHD meds. This is the result.

 

[Bingoogus]

What the fuck is wrong with me for writing all this shit? Go the fuck to sleep you fucking idiot, jesus everloving christ almighty, no one's going to fucking read it anyway you absolute wanker
Also never combine weed with ADHD meds. This is the result.

I read it!

 

[KnowNoHope]

Is this really a fair characterization of their dynamic, or would this be her shoveling the blame for the traits of hers she might not enjoy onto someone else? Where is it written that she denies it so many times? I know she begged for it more than once - which didn't do it. She had to "basically blackmail" him:

I mean every scene with makoto before the halloween event always started off with her going "no this is a bad idea we shouldn't do this" to her panting and asking for "more" to feeling like shit afterward. till it comes to a head and she gives up completely on Halloween from the start after basically being edged for several months. so yeah its a very fair one for the start of their dynamic you keep trying to point at the later developments to ignore the initial ones. the blackmail the ranting, the suicide, the bedroom fuck the pain away scene all happened after she broke, not before. there is a cause and effect relationship to this. was she a fragile little snowflake to break so easily at the start... yeah probably

That doesn't sound like either the victim in this scenario (not to say Sensei is, lol) or someone who hates herself after the fact in the way that you describe.

Sure, but this would be her creation. Like her or not, the entire rest of the class looks up to her as the real teacher in the room. Wakana would kill to have her in her class. All of their opinions are only worthless in this matter because she's so self-centered that she can only think about the thing she wants but isn't getting - Sensei's undivided attention. Taking care of everyone is a means to get that attention, not an end in itself, which is why she gets pissed off every time she has to do more. Wouldn't someone who was in it for love of the game go the extra mile without complaint?

you can clearly tell based on context she already decided to suicide at this point before fucking him" I don’t have that kind of time. " she fucked him like that because she already broke or realized she was breaking and decided to just give up and then die.

I'm going to augment your argument by bringing up the denpa aspect.

fair, but that feels more like a cop out, but i can respect it if thats where yo want to end it.

It was never that she was malevolent to everyone, she just directs it towards Sensei and, as you say, her mom. And since she's performed these deranged mental gymnastics to the extent that she plans out in advance to Bluejay right in front of Sensei, is it not fair to characterize her as more malevolent than Nodoka and Kirin, who are just trying to get off and don't understand consent; Tsukasa, who's gigaspoiled and just likes to fire people; and Yumi, who just wanted to help Futaba stand up for herself the only twisted way she knew how and is now actively pursuing redemption?

Your argument boils down to her performing Simone Biles-level mental gymnastics to shift the blame onto other people for the problems of herself and the two people whose attention she's always craved. Maybe this was as intended - as I said, only the future will tell for sure.

But when we think of her as a covert narcissist, it's basically the same thing, just more refined and sinister in a way that Bluejay alone justifies. The mental gymnastics to center herself as the victim in every interaction is a hallmark of narcissism, and so is inflicting her trauma on other people - again, you don't Bluejay in front of someone unless you want them to remember it forever.

Maybe she was meant to be merely childish and petty, but normally high school age characters in anime are written with way more depth and character than actual high schoolers normally have, and at least one of the characters in the class might be a literal 5,000 year-old wizard because of the time loops, so I'm loath to so easily trivialize her behavior.

But again, it's not as if I have the full faith in the writing quality sufficient to guarantee this was intended.

well i didnt say she didn't have narcissstic tendencies, but rather that she has deeply traumitized herself over her own sexual urges and externally blamed everyone else that made her feel that way... much in the same way Christians hated on elvis in the 1950s for no good reason. what i'm saying is her pinpoint avoidance and transference of her own guilt is understandable on a human level.

What the fuck is wrong with me for writing all this shit? Go the fuck to sleep you fucking idiot, jesus everloving christ almighty, no one's going to fucking read it anyway you absolute wanker
Also never combine weed with ADHD meds. This is the result.

asshole
here I was thinking we were having a rather civil and enjoyable conversation with respect for each other and then you drop this on me.
Also I live on a different time schedule than you most of my postings have been at what others consider ungodly hours
I will still respect your thoughts on this topic I just dont think its is accurate atm. if we get more info that discredits my perspective over makoto I very much would consider that to be a very trash story because its the only one that provides some level of narrative to justify behaviors that have occurred.

 

[k1n5l4y3r]

I'm stuck at a happy event, lots of options one is a laptop, it asks for a terminal number, i'm fairly sure i need it to progress. Anyone know what it is?

TIA

terminal is 23

 

[k1n5l4y3r]

Makoto did not plan to bluejay in front of Sensei, it was a spur of the moment, impulsive thing as you can see here:
She says he gave her the idea now, when he talked about the end of the world.

 

[barglenarglezous]

asshole
here I was thinking we were having a rather civil and enjoyable conversation with respect for each other and then you drop this on me.
Also I live on a different time schedule than you most of my postings have been at what others consider ungodly hours
I will still respect your thoughts on this topic I just dont think its is accurate atm. if we get more info that discredits my perspective over makoto I very much would consider that to be a very trash story because its the only one that provides some level of narrative to justify behaviors that have occurred.

To be fair, I think he was talking to himself here, not to you.

 

[chronox42]

On the question of which character is best-written, I have to say Makoto. More than any other female character, she has made me sit back, stop clicking, and think. I enjoy seeing the various forms she takes as her competing priorities pull at her.

I agree with those who say Bluejay was not an act of malice. We know that she had chosen her fate, but I think she made the final decision only moments prior, in a fit of sick poignancy spurred by Sensei's presence. The dialogue seems to support this.

Something related I wonder about: after her attempts to cheat life, Makoto's eyes appear "scratched out", same as Akira's. Does this have a meaning beyond deep depression? Is Akira always in a post-death state? How can he return to normal as well?