Ren'Py Lessons in Love [v0.46.0] [Selebus]

[shmurfer]

Found a 'bug' while trying to sort out this grind run. The game's event tracker for "The Room With Clocks" is set between the day 21 night -> day 22 morning. Fucked up how I was wanting to start the run cause I'd get the Maya event where she asks about my spooky life and I somehow only know of one of the events even though I haven't seen either, in fact at that point I could have gone to Mayas room and gone to The Room With Clocks.

Guessing it's a chapter 1 remake issue.

 

[Budoop]

That's a narrow interpretation of what we said. Apart from DeSkel, which must have cheered for Darth Vader when A New Hope premiered, most of us had deep problems with Nodoka. Half of these was because she felt like a self-insert that had just too much knowledge and did things without consequence, and the other because of the extreme things she did. The last few updates explained and justified all of these bit by bit. Her sacrifice was just the culmination of it all.

Spoiler: A Current Nodoka analysis

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Now, I still don't like Nodoka. But that's an emotional reaction to her hurting many of the characters I like. Looking at her from an objective pov, I can understand and even admire (some of) what she's done. She's been the most productive not-member of RAS, and she did all that without being chosen in any way (other than maybe Himawari's help).

It might be a "narrow" interpertation, but it's also a direct quote. I don't remember who said it and I don't think it matters, was just stating my surprise at a take like that considering I've now finished the game.
I don't know about self insert or whatever but I do know she completely disregards everyone else's feelings for selfish gain and as a result, I don't like her at all. Still think what happened to her was undeserved obviously.

"Her sacrifice was just the culmination of it all. "
This the point of my off-hand comment, it's NOT a sacrifice, she just gets murdered.
Unless I have altered events for not screwing Ami which changes things, there was no sacrifice in mind, no self-reflection of her actions and as much as you can say "Well she knows about the resets and so is a dick because of that", this entirely goes against Akira's character arc and how he is trying to be less harmful, selfish, and indulgent. Nodoka does not make a leap of faith to better the lives of others at her own expense, she just gets sucked up into a reset error due to her investigations and gets shanked while taking solace in Akira and attempting to spill some beans. She's trying to figure things out, maybe it's just my interperation but I don't get the idea she's trying to "save" anyone from harm, especially not if she sees them as shadows as you said. She's a know it all that's grasping at straws to understand the one thing she can't, she isnt going to put herself in harms way for people she doesn't even think she can harm because of the resets. Instead, I think it's more likely she's acting out of desperation to understand her mother and what she was going through.

I don't think it matters how much she's learnt or what she told Akira about the rooftop, she clearly didn't know what was about to happen to her and that's my point. You can put it down to semantics but she obviously had no idea what was coming to her, wasn't for the sake others, and so isn't a grandiose send off.

TLDR: I don't think her actions were out of selfless-ness, but instead personal interest.

 

[shmurfer]

"Her sacrifice was just the culmination of it all. "
This the point of my off-hand comment, it's NOT a sacrifice, she just gets murdered.


I don't think it matters how much she's learnt or what she told Akira about the rooftop, she clearly didn't know what was about to happen to her and that's my point. You can put it down to semantics but she obviously had no idea what was coming to her, and so isn't a grandiose send off.

TLDR: I don't think her actions were out of selfless-ness, but instead personal interest.

I'd say these parts are a bit warbly. Nodoka didn't quite sacrifice herself. She was sacrificed. Don't know if it was entirely Paredolia or a third party dabbled but she was stolen from her time and dropped into a world she had to survive in long enough for Sekai to learn about her and add Nodoka to her harem while Nodoka enjoyed the color of the world again.

By the time she's coming up to Akira naked, she knows what's about to happen to her. At this point you could call it a sacrifice since she's stayed strong and didn't run away, making the best of a situation by having a useful death.

Her actions were fueled by personal interest, but she's personally interested in some selfless goals. She puts a lot of effort into protecting Futaba and Sensei, even when she's making him Slip because the ends justify the means. She was trying to solve the abstracted mother issue the entire time instead of merely trying to figure out how the world works, which is closer to what Prime and the RAS were trying to achieve.

 

[Budoop]

Honestly yeah I can understand that. Re-reading a few times makes both of your points quite apparent.
I guess I'm really just waiting for more clarity before giving her such accument.

 

[Moonflare]

she obviously had no idea what was coming to her, and so isn't a grandiose send off.

Spoiler: Pop goes the weasel

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She very much did know what was going to happen, and it was a sacrifice because she chose to whisper things to Akira anyway. She didn't choose to meet him, but she chose to go through with the whispers. As Ami points out, she ruins it all by doing it. Nothing would have happened if she just had sex with him as Sekai intended.

TLDR: I don't think her actions were out of selfless-ness, but instead personal interest.

I don't think anyone claims Nodoka does things out of selflessness, but that her actions are in order to free them all from the simulation, which is obviously for herself, for her mom, but also in everyone else's best interests.

Claiming everything she does is for selfish gain is missing the intricacies of the simulation and of a character aware of it. If you and 10 friends were stuck in hell, and only you out of them was able to try to break them out, regarding their feelings in a never ending and repeating cycle would be ignorant. Being caring or uncaring for them while within the cycles changes nothing, as memories don't carry over and everything can end at any second. First order of business would be breaking everyone out, no matter what.

Also, you say Nodoka doesn't make a leap of faith to better the lives of others, but her entire character is about making a leap of faith to break everyone out of the resets. She started that when she was a kid and her every action since then was aiming towards that objective (likely with her being aware of it or not, through reset compulsion).

Spoiler: Beyond the reach of god

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You can see examples of these being foreshadowed in earlier events, and "random stuff" she said were actually the same things she explained recently.

Spoiler: Amoeba

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Well, everyone gets it now.

Spoiler: Lavender

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She said in Lavender that she needed Akira because he's the main character, and that is explained much later.

Spoiler: The silver king

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And we also get the results of her arc seducing Akira and researching his trigger. Anyway, shmurfer ended up putting my points together before I could, but since I was already halfway through writing them, there you go.

Let me finish up by saying that one can definitely hate Nodoka despite all of this. I just think that her character is different from the other ones at its core, and what I meant by narrow interpretation is that hardly anyone would go from hating her to "well, she took a knife to the back, I guess I forgive her then". But that it was a slow buildup through multiple updates that answered many questions about both her motivations, and managed to paint her in, perhaps, one of the if not the most underdog position of all the characters - while still achieving much more than her counterparts.

 

[Budoop]

All of that hinges on the idea that she's accepting an inevitable death, if that was the case, why didnt she go outside with sensei when he asked if she wanted to because it would have saved her in that moment, why would she ask that he forces her to stop investigating, why wouldn't she explain why the rooftop is bad, why would she not speak to Sensei more about when she knows he's part of it, I see absolutely no good reason for this move unless she needed an alternate timeline Ami to murder her, but surely that wouldn't matter either because it's not the "real" Ami.

It seems to me like it's far more likely she's bookworming her way into a thing she doesn't understand because she needs clarity rather than she's trying to save her "friends", several of which she's done things to hurt, memories which clearly continue. She's said it herself, people are stories to be learnt, to be written. They're tools for her ends, they were then, they are now.

This is why I don't see her actions as a sacrifice.

 

[Moonflare]

All of that hinges on the idea that she's accepting an inevitable death, if that was the case, why didnt she go outside with sensei when he asked if she wanted to because it would have saved her in that moment, why would she ask that he forces her to stop investigating, why wouldn't she explain why the rooftop is bad, why would she not speak to Sensei more about when she knows he's part of it, I see absolutely no good reason for this move unless she needed an alternate timeline Ami to murder her, but surely that wouldn't matter either because it's not the "real" Ami.

It seems to me like it's far more likely she's bookworming her way into a thing she doesn't understand because she needs clarity rather than she's trying to save her "friends", several of which she's done things to hurt, memories which clearly continue. She's said it herself, people are stories to be learnt, to be written. They're tools for her ends, they were then, they are now.

This is why I don't see her actions as a sacrifice.

I don't follow why you'd say that wasn't the real Ami, and even less why that wouldn't matter. We all saw alt Maya Prime, I'd be baffled if someone thought they shouldn't consider her revelations to matter to our Maya Prime.

At least half of your points concern how Selebus writes his story, so there isn't much that can be said about that. The very same has been said multiple times of Maya, Ayane and Akira "why they haven't taken this very reasonable course of action?", well, because Selebus didn't want them to.

In regard to Nodoka's sacrifice, Pareidolia put her there to move Akira (one of his gifts to do it). She knew that she was going to die by Ami, and one would assume that is what moves Akira. When coming back, Akira notes that Nodoka should not be recruited into RAS, remembering what she asked of him - thus being effective in at least being memorable for him (if that "moved" him, we'll have to wait and see as "moving" him seems to have a different meaning anyway).

Well, I don't really have anything else to say about Nodoka. You seem to assume that her ultimate goal is seeking clarity by using people as tools, as if she would be doing it as a pet project that doesn't equate salvation for everyone if she succeeds. We'll just have to disagree I guess, as I simply can't see her as anything else than a poor girl in a very unfortunate situation trying her best. Being able to see Nodoka as a character on an ego trip or a cliched sociopath toying with others just for the hell of it was at one point possible, but it isn't for me anymore. I find her rather complex now.

 

[Budoop]

Yeah we'll just have to wait and see where things go in the future.
I was under the impression that the Ami they had there was just a random alt timeline Ami, am I wrong about that?

And for what it's worth, I hope you're right as it'd be a much more interesting character than her just doing whatever she wants to.

 

[shmurfer]

Yeah we'll just have to wait and see where things go in the future.
I was under the impression that the Ami they had there was just a random alt timeline Ami, am I wrong about that?

I wouldn't call her completely random. (I believe) she isn't our Ami. If there's a Maya Prime, that could be an example of a Ami Prime. Gone through endless resets trying to get the world she wants, assumedly with some control over the resets themselves.

I'm not even sure if rapist Ami is our Ami or just another appearance of this Ami prime, though my reasons are purely logistical rather than me analyzing how she talks. Back when Sensei was on autopilot due to Maya Prime's 'death', on a save file where you aren't fucking Ami, there's a scene where she's trying to make you cum into a jar. This is played for humor I think, but this is also a really low tier goal for someone who has control over resets isn't it? Unless she got contacted by Ghost Sekai or whoever she's working for, and has started getting the keys to the kingdom. But that's something we have no direct evidence for.

Speaking of things we have no evidence for, I've been thinking about it for a while. We may have witnessed the creation of am i okay

 

[Budoop]

" I'm not even sure if rapist Ami is our Ami "
Honestly same, Ami's place in the resets confuses me a lot here.
I've never been good at conceptualizing alt universe stuff but Ami clearly is aware of it, something that dawned on me when she didnt repeat herself when maya prompted it AGES ago, but instead just called Maya an idiot. There's also that one reset where someone is hiding on the stair area on the roof. I think it was Ami / Sekai but I'm sure someone else can confirm that one.

 

[Moonflare]

Yeah we'll just have to wait and see where things go in the future.
I was under the impression that the Ami they had there was just a random alt timeline Ami, am I wrong about that?

the notion of it being an alt timeline is being used to make it simpler to understand. But as of this moment, we don't know enough. That could be the past, or even the future (although it's more likely to be the past).

If we're to assume Ami was the "original Maya"/original main girl (which I believe to be the case), then it would follow that that timeline could be a past cycle before Maya was a thing. It is a bit weird that that Ami kind of recognizes Nodoka though, or maybe she was just talking about what Nodoka said just prior, idk.

Anyway, regardless, that "alt" Ami, or past Ami, delivers very important info in conjunction with the Ami that tortures New Maya, that makes us understand a lot about our Ami's arc and her relationship with "Mega Ami", and possibly Narrator Ami. To which extent is still unknown, but definitely evidence of a lot of previous theories.

 

[Budoop]

the notion of it being an alt timeline is being used to make it simpler to understand. But as of this moment, we don't know enough. That could be the past, or even the future (although it's more likely to be the past).

If we're to assume Ami was the "original Maya"/original main girl (which I believe to be the case), then it would follow that that timeline could be a past cycle before Maya was a thing. It is a bit weird that that Ami kind of recognizes Nodoka though, or maybe she was just talking about what Nodoka said just prior, idk.

Anyway, regardless, that "alt" Ami, or past Ami, delivers very important info in conjunction with the Ami that tortures New Maya, that makes us understand a lot about our Ami's arc and her relationship with "Mega Ami", and possibly Narrator Ami. To which extent is still unknown, but definitely evidence of a lot of previous theories.

"the notion of it being an alt timeline is being used to make it simpler to understand. But as of this moment, we don't know enough. That could be the past, or even the future (although it's more likely to be the past)." Agreed, im 100% simplifying it to try understanding it better.

"It is a bit weird that that Ami kind of recognizes Nodoka though"
Wait this is a really good point, Nodoka won't have joined the class by this point will she?

 

[Moonflare]

"It is a bit weird that that Ami kind of recognizes Nodoka though"
Wait this is a really good point, Nodoka won't have joined the class by this point will she?

No, but as I've said, Sekai introduces her as one of her students. And that Ami only makes mention of things Nodoka says in front of her then, so it could go either way. Her reaction could be so harsh because she recognizes who Nodoka is, certainly = knowing about our Nodoka I mean, or that she was sent there by Pareidolia even. But it could also just be that this "unknown" entered her happy ending and messed with it, which she also did.

Back when Sensei was on autopilot due to Maya Prime's 'death', on a save file where you aren't fucking Ami, there's a scene where she's trying to make you cum into a jar. This is played for humor I think, but this is also a really low tier goal for someone who has control over resets isn't it?

That's assuming Ami would be in control of the resets (which I think she never was), or that our Ami has a structured enough memory of things (which I think she doesn't).

My current take is that Ami was likely the main girl of the resets, by that I mean that she was aware of it, and managed to understand it to a much higher degree than Maya ever did (from which comes part of her resentment, as Maya barely knows what's going on, and yet is favored by the resets). She says that she won't kill Maya, and will just let the sky take care of it. And there are also some other things she says that make it seems like she's more of a better "Maya", than being in actual control.

There are some things which I think bear relevance, as Ami not killing Maya in Maya Prime's memories, and Ami dying in our cycles. I think it's somewhat likely that when Maya arrived something happened to Ami. It could even be that something happened to the entire timeline and Sekai began dying by Maya's "creation/insert", but focusing on Ami: I think it's possible that Ami became fragmented because of it/losing her place. This is not necessary for the theory, but at least it would make sense with our Ami becoming aware and "taking control" only at certain moments.

If we assume that our Ami is most of the time just behaving with minimum knowledge of the resets and by more of a compulsion of creating their happy end (unconsciously), and at moments she recovers Mega Ami/Narrator Ami knowledge (almost as if possessed), like during "somnambula", after her trip to the old district, and possibily on other events like with Noriko and during the auto-pilot sequence, then everything makes sense.

So we'd have Ami that isn't reset ever and keeps trying to create her happy ending, then we have an Ami that is reset (but knows how to make the best of it), and eventually we get our Ami, that loses most of her memories but manages to recover them in critical points. All one Ami, just over thousands and thousands of years.

 

[Budoop]

Getting cucked by your friends for thousands of years really would suck lmao.
Maya found that out the hard way, speaking of I hope Ayane remembers her promise at some point.

 

[fdsasdf_p]

This is why I don't see her actions as a sacrifice.

I can see where you're coming from. It's how everyone defines "sacrifice", which further entangles with "What was Nodoka's remaining goal when she whispered to Sensei in that timeline?" and "What really prompted Ami to kill Nodoka?".

One can view all her actions during this Halloween as "still experimenting, finally getting some results but it's something bad, but eventually accepting where her actions would lead her to like an objective scientist". This portrays Nodoka as her usual archetype, a mad scientist with actions all powered by interests in learning instead of helping others, but also with an acute mindset to accept what comes after once she flies too close to the sun. What this train of thoughts would paint Nodoka as is that her being killed in that timeline was solely due to her own pursuit in science and nothing more, regardless of whether her action "helped" Sensei and/or the time fuckery business or not. This will be her main disqualifier to claim the title "sacrifice". Or rather, she sacrificed for her own science, the kind of sacrifice we don't give a shit about. Under this lens, she at best might be considered as a martyr for Kyoko, but to say she sacrificed for Sensei would be a stretch.

On the other hand, one can also view Nodoka's final action and assume that she, at that point, was no longer pursuing science (because she finally successfully figured out something but she didn't like what she found) and really was there to help/rescue Sensei, even if that wasn't what landed her in that timeline. The key point here is to think about "Will Nodoka still die if she didn't whisper those exact words to Sensei?" and "Does getting killed right in front of Sensei a part of her goal?". If those whispered words were Ami's trigger and Nodoka knew that beforehand, this implies that Nodoka valued what her final action would bring more than her life. Of course, a counter point can still be made here that we can't really discern what Nodoka's final motive is, and claiming that she wanted to help Sensei at the end instead of anything scientific is merely wishful thinking. I'd agree on that 100% if she only asked Sensei to stop herself from researching without asking Sensei to avoid rooftop or leaving Kumon-mi at all costs. In addition, the second question, "Does getting killed right in front of Sensei a part of her goal?", stems from a suspicion of mine that Nodoka might've let herself killed right in front of Sensei incidentally right before he was about to "consider settling down in this timeline for real", potentially serving as a very violent awakening. This might address your question of "Why Nodoka didn't just go outside to talk to Sensei", and these altogether will be her main qualifiers to claim the title "sacrifice", as this train of thought associates her death with her final actions, which we assume that it wasn't merely research-based.

I also acknowledge that assigning anything good onto this smartass is pretty difficult when her track record is that ugly; even her idea of "being of help to others" might be something only she herself agrees and nobody else does. But, I'd like to think that at her final moments, her reunion with Sensei was genuine, and she did try to disclose something vital to not just herself. Whether these link to her death and thus count as sacrificing for others is entirely up to you.

 

[Budoop]

You've summed up my take on her pretty well tbh.
I do understand the other side, I just think we need a few more breadcrumbs.

 

[Moonflare]

I can see where you're coming from. It's how everyone defines "sacrifice", which further entangles with "What was Nodoka's remaining goal when she whispered to Sensei in that timeline?" and "What really prompted Ami to kill Nodoka?".

One can view all her actions during this Halloween as "still experimenting, finally getting some results but it's something bad, but eventually accepting where her actions would lead her to like an objective scientist". This portrays Nodoka as her usual archetype, a mad scientist with actions all powered by interests in learning instead of helping others, but also with an acute mindset to accept what comes after once she flies too close to the sun. What this train of thoughts would paint Nodoka as is that her being killed in that timeline was solely due to her own pursuit in science and nothing more, regardless of whether her action "helped" Sensei and/or the time fuckery business or not. This will be her main disqualifier to claim the title "sacrifice". Or rather, she sacrificed for her own science, the kind of sacrifice we don't give a shit about. Under this lens, she at best might be considered as a martyr for Kyoko, but to say she sacrificed for Sensei would be a stretch.

On the other hand, one can also view Nodoka's final action and assume that she, at that point, was no longer pursuing science (because she finally successfully figured out something but she didn't like what she found) and really was there to help/rescue Sensei, even if that wasn't what landed her in that timeline. The key point here is to think about "Will Nodoka still die if she didn't whisper those exact words to Sensei?" and "Does getting killed right in front of Sensei a part of her goal?". If those whispered words were Ami's trigger and Nodoka knew that beforehand, this implies that Nodoka valued what her final action would bring more than her life. Of course, a counter point can still be made here that we can't really discern what Nodoka's final motive is, and claiming that she wanted to help Sensei at the end instead of anything scientific is merely wishful thinking. I'd agree on that 100% if she only asked Sensei to stop herself from researching without asking Sensei to avoid rooftop or leaving Kumon-mi at all costs. In addition, the second question, "Does getting killed right in front of Sensei a part of her goal?", stems from a suspicion of mine that Nodoka might've let herself killed right in front of Sensei incidentally right before he was about to "consider settling down in this timeline for real", potentially serving as a very violent awakening. This might address your question of "Why Nodoka didn't just go outside to talk to Sensei", and these altogether will be her main qualifiers to claim the title "sacrifice", as this train of thought associates her death with her final actions, which we assume that it wasn't merely research-based.

I also acknowledge that assigning anything good onto this smartass is pretty difficult when her track record is that ugly; even her idea of "being of help to others" might be something only she herself agrees and nobody else does. But, I'd like to think that at her final moments, her reunion with Sensei was genuine, and she did try to disclose something vital to not just herself. Whether these link to her death and thus count as sacrificing for others is entirely up to you.

I recommend this post as a good synthesis of what was discussed.

I'd just like to add that my perspective is neither. When I say that Nodoka sacrificed herself, I don't mean that she sacrificed herself in a noble act for the good of Akira. What I mean is that Nodoka, the scientist, freedom-fighter, Hououin Kyouma's cousin and outright madlad (literally), chose to sacrifice herself because that puts the overall group closer to her goal. That just happens to be beneficial to Akira.

Her messaging is clear to me: She needs to take a step back in her research because she has already informed Akira of what she had to, and further research will gather unwanted attention from the gods, rather than helping him (she has already been displaced when trying to go to the roof by herself once, that's the end of the line for her).

Also that Akira is the one capable of spearheading things, so she has to sacrifice for him because it is up to him, not her. Mind you, I don't think she's lying about caring for Akira, I just don't think that's the point. She does what she does because that's the course of action that puts her closer to her goal, even if that means she has to die/next Nodoka be unaware of it. That's admirable in my eyes, even more than if she did it out of nobility/affection tbh.

 

[DeanNoriko]

Very nice discussion. I can't really add much to it in terms of Nodoka and her alleged sacrifice that hasn't already been explained by Moonflare and fdsasdf_p much more expertly than I would have been able to. But I also like Nodoka much more now than I used to, although she is still nowhere near my favorites.

I just wanted to comment on a remark I saw in one of the messages and that is the notion of whether what we saw was the "real" Ami.
One of the very first lines of the entire game, spoken by an unknown narrator, is that Nothing is real.

While I don't want to take this statement literally, I'd like to reconsider the importance of figuring out which Ami, Maya, Akira or Takoyaki Man is real. How I like to interpret things is that all characters are real (or not) as they are just simply themselves. Well unless they are a shapeshifted form of Himawari I guess.

What I mean is, I don't think that timelines as such exist (even though I mentioned them plenty of times here, but I'm a hypocrite anyway). And I mean it quite literally, time is not a line from a beginning to an end. In true Kurt Vonnegut fashion (I recommend Slaughterhouse Five for anyone interested in the philosophic topic of time travel), I am a believer that time is essentially a construct invented by mankind to give structure to life, to conceptualize it. However, in fact, there is no time as such. Everything that happens is bound to happen, you cannot change it, everything exists all at once. Nothing really begins or ends, it just exists in a different form.
That is why certain characters can slip, they can instantly appear at seemingly a different point "in time" from one moment to another.

It would also explain why there have never been two instances of the same character interacting with each other (unless it wasn't them, e.g. Himawari shapeshifting). Think about how when the RAS travelled to those alternative worlds, they were not copies of their own characters, they effectively replaced them. What happened to the "original" Ayane, Akira, Yumi, Makoto from those "timelines" (for the lack of a better term)? Well, nothing, they didn't vanish. Their minds just became aware.
Which is also why I am convinced that Maya did not simply vanish into thin air and stopped existing in the Chapter 3 finale. You can hear the sound of her slipping, her conscience just traversed to somewhere else.

Anyways, enough of that philosophic mambo jambo. For all I know Selebus might not agree with my point of view whatsoever, after all he admitted that he read like five books in his life, like a true weeb Although I don't buy it, not only because he is a notorious liar, but one cannot become that good of a writer from just watching anime lol

I'm just happy to see this thread still alive and bustling during this off-time.

 

[Budoop]

I want the Maya we all know and love back

There's been an effort made to reinforce that idea that no narrator is trustworthy, and I can't help but wonder if the "nothing is real" we used to be told semi frequently in HOPE's chapters fall into this.
I don't recall hearing the phrase outside of his reign.

I also hope the characters don't truly have "alts" but instead its just shifting through "time" with memories getting fragmented all over the place.

Also fuck HOPE, I want Pareidolia back. At least that god says tangible sentences lmao.

And yeah it's kinda bonkers how well written this game is, you compare to the other games on this site and it's just not even fucking close.
You could throw a whole new conversation at us with the names and identifying information removed and I'm willing to bet most people who've played the game will be able to tell who is who simply by personality and mannerisms.

 

[Apollo259]

It seems that as one of the few people who has gone through the hating to liking Nodoka pipeline I will need to present a compelling argument to bring people around to my point of view.

Spoiler: The argument.

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