Ren'Py Lessons in Love [v0.46.0] [Selebus]

[Moonflare]

Why allow players to miss happy events and then punishing them for looking up the information elsewhere?

Because, at his core, Selebus is a douche. Anything else he is, he is on accident.

So a strange alternative I have is to attribute her tsundere-ness to the effect of the circular time. In term of feelings toward Sensei, Yumi might be one of the few with multiple cycles of memories contradicting one another.

Personally, I don't like this theory LOL. It reduces her tsundere character to a mere byproduct of the time fuckery when I really wish she is just a dumbass tsundere.

I think she is just a dumbass tsundere. Yumi states that Akira is the one adult that never gives up on her, and yet she finds him creepy because the way he does that is through stalking and creepy ass detentions. This would naturally lead to the development of a "as tsundere as it can" be in real life. In other words, she's extremely lacking of an adult that won't give up on her, yet her only ever example of that is a creep.

Also, I've read her biography so I know what I'm talking about:

Spoiler: Yumi Yamaguchi, memoirs

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[gazgiz]

Like, I’m not saying outright that you’re wrong, and Sel has shown that he’s great at Wikipedia and adding impressive theoretical shit to his game. But I honestly think that the analysis is giving him way too much credit. Dude’s very likely just a pompous conceited ass, and that’s ok. We accept it, since the art is good. The amount of analysis we have here is in SPITE of the writer, not because he’s secretly 4D chess gaming by being a douche.

I just think it's a strange position to hold that while the art is good, because the author is a tool, it must be a happy accident. I said before that I'm not sure if "Sel" is a character he plays or if he is that giant of a dingus! I don't read the discord, and haven't really interacted with him at all. I'm not giving him credit, I'm giving the work credit. As I think most of us that actually play this game do, because if this isn't hitting, you'll scrub out before chapter 1 is finished.

What I *am* saying is that, whoever and whatever the author is, he's employing certain elements of craft. If you understand the craft he's employing you can theory craft better. But for the people that loath minor choices breaking their saves, or your game bricking bc you didn't see a Happy Event, or feeling cheated by finding out that you've locked yourself out of purity routes because you didn't get a full green run, understanding what kind of thing you're looking at will help you decided if you want to continue.

BC I think puzzles and this shit is only going to get more and more intense from here on out.

Like, I'm not even bringing up the Vivian Girls and what knowing that story might mean to what's actually going on. But I would bet money that the creator of the game knows all about it.

 

[hopeisdead6969]

I just think it's a strange position to hold that while the art is good, because the author is a tool, it must be a happy accident. I said before that I'm not sure if "Sel" is a character he plays or if he is that giant of a dingus! I don't read the discord, and haven't really interacted with him at all. I'm not giving him credit, I'm giving the work credit. As I think most of us that actually play this game do, because if this isn't hitting, you'll scrub out before chapter 1 is finished.

What I *am* saying is that, whoever and whatever the author is, he's employing certain elements of craft. If you understand the craft he's employing you can theory craft better. But for the people that loath minor choices breaking their saves, or your game bricking bc you didn't see a Happy Event, or feeling cheated by finding out that you've locked yourself out of purity routes because you didn't get a full green run, understanding what kind of thing you're looking at will help you decided if you want to continue.

BC I think puzzles and this shit is only going to get more and more intense from here on out.

Like, I'm not even bringing up the Vivian Girls and what knowing that story might mean to what's actually going on. But I would bet money that the creator of the game knows all about it.

So I’m on board with the idea that being upset about the shit he does in the game isn’t useful, since the game is straight up trying to get you to stop playing. In that way, then he totally is doing that stuff on purpose. As for whether or not he’s playing a character, I can’t say. But I will say that you can make a game like this without being an asshole IRL, too. Even if we were to call Sel a “character” he plays, given how this game is so all consuming for him, and it’s been years and will be many more, is it still just a character at that point? Method acting is great until you end up yeeting yourself because you got in too deep.

 

[gazgiz]

So I’m on board with the idea that being upset about the shit he does in the game isn’t useful, since the game is straight up trying to get you to stop playing. In that way, then he totally is doing that stuff on purpose. As for whether or not he’s playing a character, I can’t say. But I will say that you can make a game like this without being an asshole IRL, too. Even if we were to call Sel a “character” he plays, given how this game is so all consuming for him, and it’s been years and will be many more, is it still just a character at that point? Method acting is great until you end up yeeting yourself because you got in too deep.

I guess? I agree with you that the game does not want you to play it (which was why I was bringing up Brecht, a playwright that doesn't want you to watch his plays).

On the other hand since anybody only interacts with "Sel" the author, and nobody knows him irl, then I have to consider him a character and somebody who's every word should be taken as a grain of salt, or another way to parse wtf is going on in this game. Like, if we knew anything remotely real about the dude....

But I agree 150% that artists don't need to be assholes to make great art.

 

[hopeisdead6969]

Also, I just wanna say how I love all the Yumi discussion. For me:
Playthrough 1: Disliked her a lot.
Playthrough 2: Pretty ambivalent.
Playthrough 3: Where mah boo at?!

 

[Dc345]

Spoiler: The Complete Otoha Saga

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[Bingoogus]

Spoiler: The Complete Otoha Saga

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Where are these images coming from? They're not previews, guessing their customs posted on the discord? They're not from the big folder i was uploading images from 6 months ago are they?

 

[LessonsInDissonance]

Spoiler: The Complete Otoha Saga

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[Moonflare]

sort of NTR (?) we forget about in Times New Roman:

Spoiler: Times New Roman

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These are, in order, Makoto/Maki (Makoto looks way hotter with long hair btw); Chinami; Uta. These events happen 10 years after the game, as we can see a calendar in Times New Roman that states it is 2030. This also makes this Sana 25 years old, and Akira 41:

Spoiler: Times New Roman

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Lastly, it could be random, maybe it is but:

Spoiler: Times new roman and Frankincense and Myrrh

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and it's annoying the wiki doesn't have a translation for this:

Spoiler: Times New Roman

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Edit: forgot to mention, but Himawari's key is blue, as it is her color scheme and the color scheme of the bedroom.

it is also kind of pathetic when you realise Akira spent ten years inside of Times New Roman, to finally be able to break out only to spend another many months in a comatose state.

 

[Dc345]

Where are these images coming from? They're not previews, guessing their customs posted on the discord? They're not from the big folder i was uploading images from 6 months ago are they?

Yeah they're subscriber requests from website

 

[alteros]

I'm at "Life of Prizes," where does the number for "which page" in book of infinite pages come from? I get I can find the answers pretty easy but I'm curious as to where they come from because I actually do remember most of the rest. Also where does "eat white rice 23 times" come from? like what in the game tells you you're supposed to do that?

 

[Yggdrasil_Frahma]

I'm at "Life of Prizes," where does the number for "which page" in book of infinite pages come from? I get I can find the answers pretty easy but I'm curious as to where they come from because I actually do remember most of the rest. Also where does "eat white rice 23 times" come from? like what in the game tells you you're supposed to do that?

I think most of that is from the script shown to you by the angels a bit earlier. It should say 'eat lots of white rice' or something. The random number is on a corner of the script, I think.

 

[Moonflare]

like what in the game tells you you're supposed to do that?

Selebus is a douche, I recommend you don't try to understand. Especially in later parts of the game, like "Times New Roman", "Sensei-Quest" and "Waiting Room", if you can't consult the code using URM, or don't mind waiting for us to write down the answers, you're kind of screwed.

Psychoanalysis of Makoto from someone who's taken exactly one psychology course in college:

I was expecting something to make fun of and you let me down by just writing a good analysis, shame on you. We really can't trust anyone anymore.
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To make use of the post for other stuff, here are some other random bits (mostly from the end of chapter 3):

Spoiler: Ending of Chapter 3

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[barglenarglezous]

Selebus is a douche, I recommend you don't try to understand. Especially in later parts of the game, like "Times New Roman", "Sensei-Quest" and "Waiting Room", if you can't consult the code using URM, or don't mind waiting for us to write down the answers, you're kind of screwed.

Times New Roman and Waiting Room, I get. But Sensei Quest? That was just basic old-school JRPG logic.

 

[Yggdrasil_Frahma]

Times New Roman and Waiting Room, I get. But Sensei Quest? That was just basic old-school JRPG logic.

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[Moonflare]

Times New Roman and Waiting Room, I get. But Sensei Quest? That was just basic old-school JRPG logic.

you don't get why trying to guess sequences of successive random lists of attack patterns that go as high as 11, and only if you had the foresight to farm enough to get all the special attacks in the first place, all in a game that a large percentage of people would agree would be better without any puzzles, might be annoying?

 

[Apollo259]

The game clearly deliberately employs an interpretation of the Verfremdungseffekt. Its not a particularly complex thing to say, I would say everyone that has played the game will have noticed it even if they don't know there is some silly German word for what they have seen. Its probably one of the more clear things you can observe in the game with the amount of blatant 4th wall breaking and other moments such as; the "bread your nice minigame", having to reload a save to go back and get the Alexis event, the stupid reset puzzles, etc.

Speaking of the puzzles. Its kind of interesting to me that all games in general are basically permanently interacting with the idea of the "Verfremdungseffekt" to a far grater degree than most other mediums for telling a story. They require the player to actively ignore all the "video gamey" aspects of a game if they want to become "immersed" in it. If you are someone that plays a lot of games its already ingrained in you to ignore these things. If you ever get someone who has never played a game to play one a lot of the time they will hit various walls that you, as an experienced game player likely never even notice or thought would exist. Everything from controls and game mechanics that seem obvious to you, to things like using their inventory, saving and loading, respawning at the last checkpoint, even various UI elements that you might have an almost instinctual understanding of can create a disconnect for them. All that could be seen as a form of the "Verfremdungseffekt" that you have stared at for so long you are fully desensitized to. So with that in mind how would a game implement Brechtian ideas in a way that would actually be noticed by experienced game players, when we have trained our whole lives to ignore them. And I guess that's how you end up with the insufferable puzzles Sel put in this game and a lot of the other 4th wall stuff some people seem to hate.

Tangent aside, all I'm saying is that to call this game Brechtian is one of the more normal things you can say about it. Compared to some of the theories we manage to come up with. Its based in an established idea rather then our sometimes entirely insane readings of single paragraphs of text and singular images that look like a mad man drew them in MS Paint (he did).

 

[Dc345]

I try to do each reset puzzle once with out the URM. In terms of puzzles I think Times New Roman is probably the easiest one excluding the find the light puzzle. The Waiting Room I don't remember because I was drunk as shit when I did it, but I got past it. Untitled wasn't that bad, but Tsuneyo's Franklin Delaware Roosevelt question almost made me put a hole in my screen. Life of Prizes can eat a bag of dicks. Word of the Day is the rest puzzle stumped me the hardest because I was the skip to the sex player at the time and I skipped the bird number and had to play the entire game over to find it. And the first reset puzzle was pretty straight forward.

 

[barglenarglezous]

you don't get why trying to guess sequences of successive random lists of attack patterns that go as high as 11, and only if you had the foresight to farm enough to get all the special attacks in the first place, all in a game that a large percentage of people would agree would be better without any puzzles, might be annoying?

Nowhere near as annoying as any of the other puzzles in the game.

Old school JRPGs were literally "grind against easy mobs, buy upgrades, use those upgrades to fight harder mobs, buy more upgrades, etc; rinse and repeat until you have all the best items in the game, then go kill Foozle the Evil Wizard."

Hell, Selebus literally gives you a hint by calling it "Sensei Quest" (a callback Dragon Quest) and using the Slime sprite from the Dragon Quest games. An actual hint! He never does those.

We even got a hint about the two junk items that don't do anything -- because Himaraii has told us that "she's not that kind of character," so obviously the two super-expensive "sex scenes" are troll items.

The boss fight is just pattern recognition -- which is also a callback to the old school JRPGs, where boss attacks were usually a set pattern that you had to memorize to counter optimally.

Every other reset puzzle has been painfully obtuse. This one was straightforward with an obvious progression path.

 

[Fire Lord Zuko]

I enjoy the Reset Puzzles for all the weird shit they contain and also because they feel like genuine obstacles you (and Akira) have to overcome.

During Resets, Akira always runs the risk of losing himself, and often blacks out. I enjoy having a sense of agency and feeling more involved in surviving yet another Reset.

Of course, I’m likely in the minority about that, but that’s why I like them.

I definitely will acknowledge that there are certainly some annoying and damn near impossible tasks without looking into the script or using URM, though. Those coffee questions in Times New Roman, man… Just why?