Ren'Py Lessons in Love [v0.48.0] [Selebus]

[alex2011]

I think part of the reason things are done this way, is so that you can unexpectedly stumble on the "Happy" events. Getting those when you don't expect them increases their impact.

Like someone else said, I'm not currently bothered by 'the dance'. However, I can understand how others might be frustrated by it. It's hard in a sandbox game, like this, with the amount of content available, to avoid the options eventually feeling repetitive. Your suggestion about the icons would absolutely help with that, but, at the expense of some of the impact of the "Happy" events.

That may or may not be part of the intent, but that certainly is true about the impact. Horror elements aren't effective when they are expected and while a player can expect them in the game as a whole, being unable to predict exactly when they will fire is what adds that extra impact.

I should also point out that the latest update contains a puzzle that actively punishes you if you enter the answer without first viewing the scene that contains the answers, just in case someone decides to come here for the solution before even looking for the solution in game.

This is not a game that's going to spoon feed you.

This may also be reaction to the previous puzzle's reaction, people complaining about getting stuck in said puzzle because they weren't paying attention or were actively skipping text. Honestly, I approve of this methodology as I am getting a little annoyed constantly seeing people complain even though I haven't and won't make a big deal out of it.

Selebus has been known to punish players and the puzzle in "There Is Nothing" was directly stated by him to be reaction to similar. It seems the first time didn't work, so he added a new puzzle as a potential second attempt and even put in a safeguard against the skippers and the people who don't read carefully enough, though that is just speculation.

I don't, for the life of me, understand why you need so many steps, so needlessly complicated. Writing stuff down...What for? You have a progress button, use it. Meanwhile, characters have only 2 places you can visit + phone call and maybe invite, if implemented. If character specific events don't trigger, just wait for main story ones to pass first.

Writing is good for the puzzles that may get put in several updates after the answers to said puzzle.

 

[SpaceLobster]

I've not been here for a while and wow, this game got a lot bigger. Hah, it'll take me some time to read the forums and play through all the updates

 

[barglenarglezous]

This may also be reaction to the previous puzzle's reaction, people complaining about getting stuck in said puzzle because they weren't paying attention or were actively skipping text. Honestly, I approve of this methodology as I am getting a little annoyed constantly seeing people complain even though I haven't and won't make a big deal out of it.

Selebus has been known to punish players and the puzzle in "There Is Nothing" was directly stated by him to be reaction to similar. It seems the first time didn't work, so he added a new puzzle as a potential second attempt and even put in a safeguard against the skippers and the people who don't read carefully enough, though that is just speculation.

Someone on the discord suggesting just making the puzzles procedurally generated, which would make going onto a website for the solution itself impossible. It's also a lot more complicated to code, so I doubt he'll do it, but there's definitely an audience for these types of puzzles.

 

[Antosha]

I'm reminded of the explanation Penn Jillette (and used by Rickie Gervais in After Life), when questioned on his atheism, the person saying that "without God, what's to stop you from raping and murdering all you want?" Penn said "I already rape and murder as much as I want: Zero."

Personally, I don't get much enjoyment from playing asshole MCs unless there is a chage over time. Then it becomes a form of Campbell's "monomyth."

Very meta!
Based on the main events, I'm about one fifth of the way into Chapter 2 material (between Caterpillar and Let Me Die In Spring). I don't think I've seen enough of these hints to make an impact yet. He does think about asking those important questions of what he was like "before the break," but he never actually asks.

Well, we're already seeing his humanity and compassion pushing through. Your explanation reminds me of eponymous character in the Thomas Covenant books. Plagued by leprosy, he finds himself healthy in an unknown world and considers it more of a dream and acts with abandon, raping a young woman. He only later realizes that this other world is real.

Something in what you say supports the theory that it's still the same "soul" inside but just after a break. His current self enters the cycle right after a reset. It would make sense if he had the break during the reset process. Even though she seems to recognize that he is "new," she also says he's been doing this for a number of cycles already.

I don't remember this. Based upon where you say you are in the game, I must have missed it. There is something that happens near the end of Chapter 1 that would be VERY interesting if related to what you mention.

I feel that I'm already starting to see significant positive change. I guess one could argue it's not significant yet, but it seems so to me.

Thank you for reminding me of the Thomas Covenant books! I was trying to think who Sensei reminded me of — and you nailed it on the head. He’s wounded, deeply f%{%ed up — and he disbelieves in his current reality. But he’s finding himself caring about the others in spite of himself, which tells me he’s redeemable. Whether he is redeemed (and what he has to go through before he gets there, if he is), Sel alone knows. But it’s a compelling ride, that’s for sure. Whether I can make it through Sensei crapping on each of the members of the cast before he finally does… I don’t know. The

Spoiler: Coming attractions (?)

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The point of the monomyth is that the hero — and therefore the reader/viewer/player — is supposed to go through a symbolic (or real) death to who they used to be in order to become who they are capable of becoming. I’ll have to keep holding on to potential!Sensei to keep on slogging through the destruction he’s leaving in his wake. Probably foolish of me.

 

[Cerpin]

Thank you for reminding me of the Thomas Covenant books! I was trying to think who Sensei reminded me of — and you nailed it on the head. He’s wounded, deeply f%{%ed up — and he disbelieves in his current reality. But he’s finding himself caring about the others in spite of himself, which tells me he’s redeemable. Whether he is redeemed (and what he has to go through before he gets there, if he is), Sel alone knows. But it’s a compelling ride, that’s for sure. Whether I can make it through Sensei crapping on each of the members of the cast before he finally does… I don’t know. The

Spoiler: Coming attractions (?)

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

The point of the monomyth is that the hero — and therefore the reader/viewer/player — is supposed to go through a symbolic (or real) death to who they used to be in order to become who they are capable of becoming. I’ll have to keep holding on to potential!Sensei to keep on slogging through the destruction he’s leaving in his wake. Probably foolish of me.

Maya is going to get totally Elena'd.

 

[Deleted member 3313072]

I'm definitely missing something if I can't get Ami's 6th event to fire, No One Can See Us, and her morning flu event just fired. I borked up something somewhere. Her affection is in the 20s already.

 

[Kitsune241]

I'm definitely missing something if I can't get Ami's 6th event to fire, No One Can See Us, and her morning flu event just fired. I borked up something somewhere. Her affection is in the 20s already.

Events, especially the early events like that one, might not activate in the order it shows in the list. All the main girl's events are split between two main locations, their hangout spot (for Ami it's her bedroom) and their dorm room, so it's possible to trigger a latter event in her hangout spot before an earlier one in her dorm for example (assuming one doesn't rely on the other).
Visit Ami in her dorm on the weekend, if that doesn't do anything you can upload a save here for someone to take a look at.

 

[Deleted member 3313072]

Events, especially the early events like that one, might not activate in the order it shows in the list. All the main girl's events are split between two main locations, their hangout spot (for Ami it's her bedroom) and their dorm room, so it's possible to trigger a latter event in her hangout spot before an earlier one in her dorm for example (assuming one doesn't rely on the other).
Visit Ami in her dorm on the weekend, if that doesn't do anything you can upload a save here for someone to take a look at.

It just fired.

 

[Kitsune241]

It just fired.

For future reference if you ever get stuck again there's a wiki linked both in the first post of this thread and... somewhere in the game's menus. It has (mostly) up to date info on how to trigger events.

 

[Thorstenl]

I started the game yesterday and omg some of Maya events are so weird and kind of boring compared to others

 

[Dragon59]

Thomas Covenant was much worse, as an actual rapist. I couldn't get past that part, and put away the series in disgust. I am sure Thomas Covenant was very sorry and wretched afterwords, but that still didn't make me want to spend another 1500 pages with him.

When I read novels, the main character doesn't have to be perfect (how boring). Imperfect, flawed characters and even those with sketchy morals, make it interesting. But I have to at least like the character in some way. They should have at least a few redeeming qualities. Think of Takeshi Kovacs, from the Altered Carbon trilogy, Logen Ninefingers or even Inquisitor Glokta from Joe Abercrombie's, The Blade Itself (if you've read either of those books). They are criminals and killers many times over, but each of them have some spark or sense of internal ethics, even if twisted by modern standards, that make them interesting to read about and root for.

I agree. I bought the trilogy from the Science Fiction Book Club, but if I remember correctly, I never actually finished it. I think it was like a morality play--his physical corruption led to his ethical corruption, and he had no redemption arc because he was just...there for so much of it, I don't remember him really exercising will or agency very often. It's been many years, and my memory may have suffered some rewriting.

 

[alex2011]

Someone on the discord suggesting just making the puzzles procedurally generated, which would make going onto a website for the solution itself impossible. It's also a lot more complicated to code, so I doubt he'll do it, but there's definitely an audience for these types of puzzles.

I'd be for it, but you're right, those are a major pain to code.

Thanks! Somehow, I totally missed the (tiny, barely visible) progress button. How long has this been there? Haha. I feel like an idiot for missing it all this time. That will save me a lot of clicking and writing down (or typing in notepad, I didn't use actual paper, I am not a Neanderthal).



Very true. LiL is a lot less grindy than many games. I wouldn't even use the word grind to describe it. I think somewhat repetitive at times, is as good a description as any. With some interface tweaking, if Selebus is game to try it, could take the edge off so to speak.

I pretty much avoid all sandbox games, and anything with a hint of grind, because I just don't have the patience for it. There are so many great games to play, not to waste my time clicking all over a map or room to try to find the next scene, or repeating the same scene over and over to increase stats. A few games around here are especially egregious offenders. Room for Rent is a prime example. At first glance appears like it might be decent, but the mind-numbing grind kills any potential enjoyment for the game.

LiL is great enough, that I never minded the sandbox-lite nature. However, after playing up to this point, I am realizing that the mechanics of triggering the next character scene could be improved, for me at least. The progress menu, which I never knew about, will help a lot, but even if you know what character you are trying for, there are about 12 combinations of places, times, and days you have to try to attempt to trigger the scene, with each scene with each girl, and sometimes it still doesn't work because I haven't triggered a main event yet.

Maybe I am in the minority of fans, but a little more guidance to reduce repetitive clicking would be much welcomed.



Thomas Covenant was much worse, as an actual rapist. I couldn't get past that part, and put away the series in disgust. I am sure Thomas Covenant was very sorry and wretched afterwords, but that still didn't make me want to spend another 1500 pages with him.

When I read novels, the main character doesn't have to be perfect (how boring). Imperfect, flawed characters and even those with sketchy morals, make it interesting. But I have to at least like the character in some way. They should have at least a few redeeming qualities. Think of Takeshi Kovacs, from the Altered Carbon trilogy, Logen Ninefingers or even Inquisitor Glokta from Joe Abercrombie's, The Blade Itself (if you've read either of those books). They are criminals and killers many times over, but each of them have some spark or sense of internal ethics, even if twisted by modern standards, that make them interesting to read about and root for.

At the same time, too much guidance would ruin what Selebus seems to have been going for. It is a much more delicate balance than usual with this game because he most definitely has to make sure not to disclose upcoming 'happy' scenes so they don't lose impact among other issues.

Yes. Exactly. The two scenes you mentioned were very hard to watch. I still think of Bluejay often, and think to myself "why"? Maybe someone can remind me. I still don't quite understand, if it is understandable. Was it just the pressure of being "On" all the time? Of being the responsible one? Did Sensei drive her to it, because he is so aloof, and doesn't return her deeply held feelings for him?



I am feeling extra dense today. Elena'd? From DmD? What do you mean?



At least I got the trilogy from the library. I skimmed the book a little after that scene, just to see if Thomas Covenant's character got any better or more sympathetic, but no, it was just more and more wretchedness, and continual "woe is me" levels of self reflection. Maybe by book three, but I was done.

I would say it was a mix of all of those things that drove her into what happened during the "Bluejay" event.

 

[Dragon59]

We definitely need to have a scene called...
Mi Casa, Tsukasa

 

[niconob92]

Ok I'm gonna lay off the thread for a few days until I'm up to date with the story. Too many spoilers and I'm too stupid curious to ignore spoiler tags

 

[alex2011]

Ok I'm gonna lay off the thread for a few days until I'm up to date with the story. Too many spoilers and I'm too stupid curious to ignore spoiler tags

I know, I can't help myself either. See you when you catch up.

 

[Cerpin]

I am feeling extra dense today. Elena'd? From DmD? What do you mean?



At least I got the trilogy from the library. I skimmed the book a little after that scene, just to see if Thomas Covenant's character got any better or more sympathetic, but no, it was just more and more wretchedness, and continual "woe is me" levels of self reflection. Maybe by book three, but I was done.

I was referencing Covenant's rape-baby Elena from the books.

In an attempt to defeat the big bad she basically breaks the fundamental laws governing how the land works. (From memory she restores some hero to life who is immediately turned to evil it's been like 15 years). She basically fucks up time and in the process dooms herself leading to Covenant eventually having to break the land further and causing no end of issues leading to Covenant effectively ascending to the position of a god.

Covenant fundamentally does not accept that the land is real, he thinks he's dreaming. It takes like 6 books before he fully accepts that the land is in some way real and commits to it. But to be fair he does regret his rape of Lena and makes some misguided attempts to make up for it (which inevitably result in death and horror).

He is not unlike Sensei.

 

[DonVipAlphonso]

I've been playing this for a while, but only recently wanted to ask something. I'm currently after the chapter 1. So, my question is about the horror. Can someone tell me without spoilers please, if the scary part stays the same, gets more or less intense?

 

[alex2011]

I've been playing this for a while, but only recently wanted to ask something. I'm currently after the chapter 1. So, my question is about the horror. Can someone tell me without spoilers please, if the scary part stays the same, gets more or less intense?

It will likely get more intense. We are far from the end of the game and things haven't gotten truly bad yet like Denpa games usually do.

 

[barglenarglezous]

Yes. Exactly. The two scenes you mentioned were very hard to watch. I still think of Bluejay often, and think to myself "why"? Maybe someone can remind me. I still don't quite understand, if it is understandable. Was it just the pressure of being "On" all the time? Of being the responsible one? Did Sensei drive her to it, because he is so aloof, and doesn't return her deeply held feelings for him?

Another possibility that became apparent in the latest update, is that Makoto might have been pregnant.

"That's impossible, Barglenarglezous, he never came in her!"

The pull-out method was used at least once, and is not a reliable form of birth control.

We know that Ayane was drawn to the rooftop as the reset approached specifically because she had a piece of sensei in her. In fact, when there was a rooftop scene with Ayane, my gut sank specifically because of Bluejay. I am of the opinion that these events were linked directly -- Makoto faced incredible pressure to be perfect, to be on all the time, and she was rewarded for this by having the one thing she was actively trying to avoid happen. And for most girls her age, pregnancy is a life-changing event that permanently changes their life trajectory.

At least, that's my personal theory.

 

[alex2011]

Another possibility that became apparent in the latest update, is that Makoto might have been pregnant.

"That's impossible, Barglenarglezous, he never came in her!"

The pull-out method was used at least once, and is not a reliable form of birth control.

We know that Ayane was drawn to the rooftop as the reset approached specifically because she had a piece of sensei in her. In fact, when there was a rooftop scene with Ayane, my gut sank specifically because of Bluejay. I am of the opinion that these events were linked directly -- Makoto faced incredible pressure to be perfect, to be on all the time, and she was rewarded for this by having the one thing she was actively trying to avoid happen. And for most girls her age, pregnancy is a life-changing event that permanently changes their life trajectory.

At least, that's my personal theory.

I'm not sure about that, I think it was more cracking under the pressure of her reputation at school and the expectations that come with it and her position in class. Those can cause an extreme amount of pressure on a girl her age and people her age don't necessarily know how to deal with that pressure. I don't think pregnancy was involved or there would have been more signs pointing to it, but even without pregnancy, she was and still is under an immense amount of pressure for a girl her age.

I was once in a similar position to her, holding a position of responsibility and a record of success that led to a reputation I could not keep up with. I was both an honor student for part of high school, not honor student as in taking higher level classes, but maintaining high grades for a significant period, as well as holding the position of lieutenant in our marching band, which was second in command of the section, and equipment manager in the band. I cracked and, while it didn't affect me like we saw with Makoto, it caused me to make mistakes that could have been disastrous, mistakes I would not have made otherwise because I took the two positions extremely seriously to the point where I don't think my section liked me very much. Not like people dying disastrous, but it could have caused a cascade failure throughout the entire band, though one thing could have been genuinely deadly. This mainly took the form of constantly forgetting to assign people to gather equipment, mostly the drum major's podium, but the more dangerous equipment I kept forgetting, which could have caused actual medical harm, was water and this did usually happen on hot days with a completely uncovered sun.