Ren'Py Lessons in Love [v0.47.0] [Selebus]

[shmurfer]

Yeah we'll just have to wait and see where things go in the future.
I was under the impression that the Ami they had there was just a random alt timeline Ami, am I wrong about that?

I wouldn't call her completely random. (I believe) she isn't our Ami. If there's a Maya Prime, that could be an example of a Ami Prime. Gone through endless resets trying to get the world she wants, assumedly with some control over the resets themselves.

I'm not even sure if rapist Ami is our Ami or just another appearance of this Ami prime, though my reasons are purely logistical rather than me analyzing how she talks. Back when Sensei was on autopilot due to Maya Prime's 'death', on a save file where you aren't fucking Ami, there's a scene where she's trying to make you cum into a jar. This is played for humor I think, but this is also a really low tier goal for someone who has control over resets isn't it? Unless she got contacted by Ghost Sekai or whoever she's working for, and has started getting the keys to the kingdom. But that's something we have no direct evidence for.

Speaking of things we have no evidence for, I've been thinking about it for a while. We may have witnessed the creation of am i okay

 

[Budoop]

" I'm not even sure if rapist Ami is our Ami "
Honestly same, Ami's place in the resets confuses me a lot here.
I've never been good at conceptualizing alt universe stuff but Ami clearly is aware of it, something that dawned on me when she didnt repeat herself when maya prompted it AGES ago, but instead just called Maya an idiot. There's also that one reset where someone is hiding on the stair area on the roof. I think it was Ami / Sekai but I'm sure someone else can confirm that one.

 

[Moonflare]

Yeah we'll just have to wait and see where things go in the future.
I was under the impression that the Ami they had there was just a random alt timeline Ami, am I wrong about that?

the notion of it being an alt timeline is being used to make it simpler to understand. But as of this moment, we don't know enough. That could be the past, or even the future (although it's more likely to be the past).

If we're to assume Ami was the "original Maya"/original main girl (which I believe to be the case), then it would follow that that timeline could be a past cycle before Maya was a thing. It is a bit weird that that Ami kind of recognizes Nodoka though, or maybe she was just talking about what Nodoka said just prior, idk.

Anyway, regardless, that "alt" Ami, or past Ami, delivers very important info in conjunction with the Ami that tortures New Maya, that makes us understand a lot about our Ami's arc and her relationship with "Mega Ami", and possibly Narrator Ami. To which extent is still unknown, but definitely evidence of a lot of previous theories.

 

[Budoop]

the notion of it being an alt timeline is being used to make it simpler to understand. But as of this moment, we don't know enough. That could be the past, or even the future (although it's more likely to be the past).

If we're to assume Ami was the "original Maya"/original main girl (which I believe to be the case), then it would follow that that timeline could be a past cycle before Maya was a thing. It is a bit weird that that Ami kind of recognizes Nodoka though, or maybe she was just talking about what Nodoka said just prior, idk.

Anyway, regardless, that "alt" Ami, or past Ami, delivers very important info in conjunction with the Ami that tortures New Maya, that makes us understand a lot about our Ami's arc and her relationship with "Mega Ami", and possibly Narrator Ami. To which extent is still unknown, but definitely evidence of a lot of previous theories.

"the notion of it being an alt timeline is being used to make it simpler to understand. But as of this moment, we don't know enough. That could be the past, or even the future (although it's more likely to be the past)." Agreed, im 100% simplifying it to try understanding it better.

"It is a bit weird that that Ami kind of recognizes Nodoka though"
Wait this is a really good point, Nodoka won't have joined the class by this point will she?

 

[Moonflare]

"It is a bit weird that that Ami kind of recognizes Nodoka though"
Wait this is a really good point, Nodoka won't have joined the class by this point will she?

No, but as I've said, Sekai introduces her as one of her students. And that Ami only makes mention of things Nodoka says in front of her then, so it could go either way. Her reaction could be so harsh because she recognizes who Nodoka is, certainly = knowing about our Nodoka I mean, or that she was sent there by Pareidolia even. But it could also just be that this "unknown" entered her happy ending and messed with it, which she also did.

Back when Sensei was on autopilot due to Maya Prime's 'death', on a save file where you aren't fucking Ami, there's a scene where she's trying to make you cum into a jar. This is played for humor I think, but this is also a really low tier goal for someone who has control over resets isn't it?

That's assuming Ami would be in control of the resets (which I think she never was), or that our Ami has a structured enough memory of things (which I think she doesn't).

My current take is that Ami was likely the main girl of the resets, by that I mean that she was aware of it, and managed to understand it to a much higher degree than Maya ever did (from which comes part of her resentment, as Maya barely knows what's going on, and yet is favored by the resets). She says that she won't kill Maya, and will just let the sky take care of it. And there are also some other things she says that make it seems like she's more of a better "Maya", than being in actual control.

There are some things which I think bear relevance, as Ami not killing Maya in Maya Prime's memories, and Ami dying in our cycles. I think it's somewhat likely that when Maya arrived something happened to Ami. It could even be that something happened to the entire timeline and Sekai began dying by Maya's "creation/insert", but focusing on Ami: I think it's possible that Ami became fragmented because of it/losing her place. This is not necessary for the theory, but at least it would make sense with our Ami becoming aware and "taking control" only at certain moments.

If we assume that our Ami is most of the time just behaving with minimum knowledge of the resets and by more of a compulsion of creating their happy end (unconsciously), and at moments she recovers Mega Ami/Narrator Ami knowledge (almost as if possessed), like during "somnambula", after her trip to the old district, and possibily on other events like with Noriko and during the auto-pilot sequence, then everything makes sense.

So we'd have Ami that isn't reset ever and keeps trying to create her happy ending, then we have an Ami that is reset (but knows how to make the best of it), and eventually we get our Ami, that loses most of her memories but manages to recover them in critical points. All one Ami, just over thousands and thousands of years.

 

[Budoop]

Getting cucked by your friends for thousands of years really would suck lmao.
Maya found that out the hard way, speaking of I hope Ayane remembers her promise at some point.

 

[fdsasdf_p]

This is why I don't see her actions as a sacrifice.

I can see where you're coming from. It's how everyone defines "sacrifice", which further entangles with "What was Nodoka's remaining goal when she whispered to Sensei in that timeline?" and "What really prompted Ami to kill Nodoka?".

One can view all her actions during this Halloween as "still experimenting, finally getting some results but it's something bad, but eventually accepting where her actions would lead her to like an objective scientist". This portrays Nodoka as her usual archetype, a mad scientist with actions all powered by interests in learning instead of helping others, but also with an acute mindset to accept what comes after once she flies too close to the sun. What this train of thoughts would paint Nodoka as is that her being killed in that timeline was solely due to her own pursuit in science and nothing more, regardless of whether her action "helped" Sensei and/or the time fuckery business or not. This will be her main disqualifier to claim the title "sacrifice". Or rather, she sacrificed for her own science, the kind of sacrifice we don't give a shit about. Under this lens, she at best might be considered as a martyr for Kyoko, but to say she sacrificed for Sensei would be a stretch.

On the other hand, one can also view Nodoka's final action and assume that she, at that point, was no longer pursuing science (because she finally successfully figured out something but she didn't like what she found) and really was there to help/rescue Sensei, even if that wasn't what landed her in that timeline. The key point here is to think about "Will Nodoka still die if she didn't whisper those exact words to Sensei?" and "Does getting killed right in front of Sensei a part of her goal?". If those whispered words were Ami's trigger and Nodoka knew that beforehand, this implies that Nodoka valued what her final action would bring more than her life. Of course, a counter point can still be made here that we can't really discern what Nodoka's final motive is, and claiming that she wanted to help Sensei at the end instead of anything scientific is merely wishful thinking. I'd agree on that 100% if she only asked Sensei to stop herself from researching without asking Sensei to avoid rooftop or leaving Kumon-mi at all costs. In addition, the second question, "Does getting killed right in front of Sensei a part of her goal?", stems from a suspicion of mine that Nodoka might've let herself killed right in front of Sensei incidentally right before he was about to "consider settling down in this timeline for real", potentially serving as a very violent awakening. This might address your question of "Why Nodoka didn't just go outside to talk to Sensei", and these altogether will be her main qualifiers to claim the title "sacrifice", as this train of thought associates her death with her final actions, which we assume that it wasn't merely research-based.

I also acknowledge that assigning anything good onto this smartass is pretty difficult when her track record is that ugly; even her idea of "being of help to others" might be something only she herself agrees and nobody else does. But, I'd like to think that at her final moments, her reunion with Sensei was genuine, and she did try to disclose something vital to not just herself. Whether these link to her death and thus count as sacrificing for others is entirely up to you.

 

[Budoop]

You've summed up my take on her pretty well tbh.
I do understand the other side, I just think we need a few more breadcrumbs.

 

[Moonflare]

I can see where you're coming from. It's how everyone defines "sacrifice", which further entangles with "What was Nodoka's remaining goal when she whispered to Sensei in that timeline?" and "What really prompted Ami to kill Nodoka?".

One can view all her actions during this Halloween as "still experimenting, finally getting some results but it's something bad, but eventually accepting where her actions would lead her to like an objective scientist". This portrays Nodoka as her usual archetype, a mad scientist with actions all powered by interests in learning instead of helping others, but also with an acute mindset to accept what comes after once she flies too close to the sun. What this train of thoughts would paint Nodoka as is that her being killed in that timeline was solely due to her own pursuit in science and nothing more, regardless of whether her action "helped" Sensei and/or the time fuckery business or not. This will be her main disqualifier to claim the title "sacrifice". Or rather, she sacrificed for her own science, the kind of sacrifice we don't give a shit about. Under this lens, she at best might be considered as a martyr for Kyoko, but to say she sacrificed for Sensei would be a stretch.

On the other hand, one can also view Nodoka's final action and assume that she, at that point, was no longer pursuing science (because she finally successfully figured out something but she didn't like what she found) and really was there to help/rescue Sensei, even if that wasn't what landed her in that timeline. The key point here is to think about "Will Nodoka still die if she didn't whisper those exact words to Sensei?" and "Does getting killed right in front of Sensei a part of her goal?". If those whispered words were Ami's trigger and Nodoka knew that beforehand, this implies that Nodoka valued what her final action would bring more than her life. Of course, a counter point can still be made here that we can't really discern what Nodoka's final motive is, and claiming that she wanted to help Sensei at the end instead of anything scientific is merely wishful thinking. I'd agree on that 100% if she only asked Sensei to stop herself from researching without asking Sensei to avoid rooftop or leaving Kumon-mi at all costs. In addition, the second question, "Does getting killed right in front of Sensei a part of her goal?", stems from a suspicion of mine that Nodoka might've let herself killed right in front of Sensei incidentally right before he was about to "consider settling down in this timeline for real", potentially serving as a very violent awakening. This might address your question of "Why Nodoka didn't just go outside to talk to Sensei", and these altogether will be her main qualifiers to claim the title "sacrifice", as this train of thought associates her death with her final actions, which we assume that it wasn't merely research-based.

I also acknowledge that assigning anything good onto this smartass is pretty difficult when her track record is that ugly; even her idea of "being of help to others" might be something only she herself agrees and nobody else does. But, I'd like to think that at her final moments, her reunion with Sensei was genuine, and she did try to disclose something vital to not just herself. Whether these link to her death and thus count as sacrificing for others is entirely up to you.

I recommend this post as a good synthesis of what was discussed.

I'd just like to add that my perspective is neither. When I say that Nodoka sacrificed herself, I don't mean that she sacrificed herself in a noble act for the good of Akira. What I mean is that Nodoka, the scientist, freedom-fighter, Hououin Kyouma's cousin and outright madlad (literally), chose to sacrifice herself because that puts the overall group closer to her goal. That just happens to be beneficial to Akira.

Her messaging is clear to me: She needs to take a step back in her research because she has already informed Akira of what she had to, and further research will gather unwanted attention from the gods, rather than helping him (she has already been displaced when trying to go to the roof by herself once, that's the end of the line for her).

Also that Akira is the one capable of spearheading things, so she has to sacrifice for him because it is up to him, not her. Mind you, I don't think she's lying about caring for Akira, I just don't think that's the point. She does what she does because that's the course of action that puts her closer to her goal, even if that means she has to die/next Nodoka be unaware of it. That's admirable in my eyes, even more than if she did it out of nobility/affection tbh.

 

[DeanNoriko]

Very nice discussion. I can't really add much to it in terms of Nodoka and her alleged sacrifice that hasn't already been explained by Moonflare and fdsasdf_p much more expertly than I would have been able to. But I also like Nodoka much more now than I used to, although she is still nowhere near my favorites.

I just wanted to comment on a remark I saw in one of the messages and that is the notion of whether what we saw was the "real" Ami.
One of the very first lines of the entire game, spoken by an unknown narrator, is that Nothing is real.

While I don't want to take this statement literally, I'd like to reconsider the importance of figuring out which Ami, Maya, Akira or Takoyaki Man is real. How I like to interpret things is that all characters are real (or not) as they are just simply themselves. Well unless they are a shapeshifted form of Himawari I guess.

What I mean is, I don't think that timelines as such exist (even though I mentioned them plenty of times here, but I'm a hypocrite anyway). And I mean it quite literally, time is not a line from a beginning to an end. In true Kurt Vonnegut fashion (I recommend Slaughterhouse Five for anyone interested in the philosophic topic of time travel), I am a believer that time is essentially a construct invented by mankind to give structure to life, to conceptualize it. However, in fact, there is no time as such. Everything that happens is bound to happen, you cannot change it, everything exists all at once. Nothing really begins or ends, it just exists in a different form.
That is why certain characters can slip, they can instantly appear at seemingly a different point "in time" from one moment to another.

It would also explain why there have never been two instances of the same character interacting with each other (unless it wasn't them, e.g. Himawari shapeshifting). Think about how when the RAS travelled to those alternative worlds, they were not copies of their own characters, they effectively replaced them. What happened to the "original" Ayane, Akira, Yumi, Makoto from those "timelines" (for the lack of a better term)? Well, nothing, they didn't vanish. Their minds just became aware.
Which is also why I am convinced that Maya did not simply vanish into thin air and stopped existing in the Chapter 3 finale. You can hear the sound of her slipping, her conscience just traversed to somewhere else.

Anyways, enough of that philosophic mambo jambo. For all I know Selebus might not agree with my point of view whatsoever, after all he admitted that he read like five books in his life, like a true weeb Although I don't buy it, not only because he is a notorious liar, but one cannot become that good of a writer from just watching anime lol

I'm just happy to see this thread still alive and bustling during this off-time.

 

[Budoop]

I want the Maya we all know and love back

There's been an effort made to reinforce that idea that no narrator is trustworthy, and I can't help but wonder if the "nothing is real" we used to be told semi frequently in HOPE's chapters fall into this.
I don't recall hearing the phrase outside of his reign.

I also hope the characters don't truly have "alts" but instead its just shifting through "time" with memories getting fragmented all over the place.

Also fuck HOPE, I want Pareidolia back. At least that god says tangible sentences lmao.

And yeah it's kinda bonkers how well written this game is, you compare to the other games on this site and it's just not even fucking close.
You could throw a whole new conversation at us with the names and identifying information removed and I'm willing to bet most people who've played the game will be able to tell who is who simply by personality and mannerisms.

 

[Apollo259]

It seems that as one of the few people who has gone through the hating to liking Nodoka pipeline I will need to present a compelling argument to bring people around to my point of view.

Spoiler: The argument.

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[FireCazador]

how are you guys able to see your playtime/time on save?

Spoiler: Steps

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I hope that Sel makes whatever the consequence will be for cheating / triggering DRM interesting and interactive. Assuming his vigilance towards manipulation / distribution of the game files comes from artistic vision, an anti-cheating/DRM measure that further reinforces / touches on that artistic vision would be more preferable to one that ends the experience, presumably.

Hell no, why would you want some consequences over not having them? xd Also the DRM is only for the packages, there is no punishment for everything else.

 

[corsair101]

I want the Maya we all know and love back

There's been an effort made to reinforce that idea that no narrator is trustworthy, and I can't help but wonder if the "nothing is real" we used to be told semi frequently in HOPE's chapters fall into this.
I don't recall hearing the phrase outside of his reign.

I also hope the characters don't truly have "alts" but instead its just shifting through "time" with memories getting fragmented all over the place.

Also fuck HOPE, I want Pareidolia back. At least that god says tangible sentences lmao.

Okay, I've got a theory here but it's proving to be a total bitch to put into words. Time is...inconsistent in Kumon-Mi. Not in the obvious way of the loops, that's a closed timelike curve (see Groundhog Day or that one episode of Star Trek TNG), which is not what we're seeing. The looping is more like a recurring pattern of events susceptible to internal and external interference/alteration, but even then it's weird because the resets are irregular and don't go back to the same point - not every reset has the beach trip, or Dorm Wars or any of the other recurring events.

I don't think we were seeing alternate timelines, I think we were seeing previous loops. Each one placed between...I'm going to steal a term from the late Iain M. Banks here and call them "outside context problems". The events that fracture reality in a way that each subsequent loop then includes them. The first one is Sensei not running away to Kyoto with Sekai, that starts the iteration where she dies, Sensei doesn't know Ami is his biological daughter, and he goes on to meet Maya and start whatever you want to call their fucked-up relationship. Maya then exists outside the resets and doesn't lose her memories every time, and somewhere between then and the start of the game is where Ayane and Yumi end up (with the Sensei who just watches football and fucks Ami). Thousands or millions of subjective years later, Sensei "sticks" again and stops being reset with the world, I don't think we know what triggered that yet. The next fracture is Maya getting reset, which takes us up to now as of 0.45.

 

[LoveRedHairedGirl]

Spoiler: Steps

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Hell no, why would you want some consequences over not having them? xd Also the DRM is only for the packages, there is no punishment for everything else.

Alas, it is impossible for me, since I lost my original saves (thanks to new pc and me forgetting to transfer the saves)

 

[flacc2pit]

Is playtime stored per save or in the persistent save? I feel like my time is a bit smaller than it should be. After realizing I missed Toys I "replayed" (held down control) the game from the one save I could, and I think this is reflected in my playtime.

 

[alteros]

Man, Kaori is so sweet. "If you are to not express joy when you are happy or tears when you cry, what am I to do as your friend?" Genuinely just wants Sensei to smile. Best girl.

 

[aramaug]

I am shocked and appalled to see defenses of Nodoka in this thread. But never fear, there is still one righteous poster willing to stand up for the incontrovertible truth that Nodoka is literally the worst.

Spoiler

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Hopefully it's obvious that this is tongue-in-cheek. I do agree with some of the discussion, Nodoka isn't 100% pure evil. That being said, I think she comes closer than any other human character in this game, and her recent actions have done little to change my mind.

That's a narrow interpretation of what we said. Apart from DeSkel, which must have cheered for Darth Vader when A New Hope premiered, most of us had deep problems with Nodoka. Half of these was because she felt like a self-insert that had just too much knowledge and did things without consequence, and the other because of the extreme things she did. The last few updates explained and justified all of these bit by bit. Her sacrifice was just the culmination of it all.

Spoiler: A Current Nodoka analysis

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Now, I still don't like Nodoka. But that's an emotional reaction to her hurting many of the characters I like. Looking at her from an objective pov, I can understand and even admire (some of) what she's done. She's been the most productive not-member of RAS, and she did all that without being chosen in any way (other than maybe Himawari's help).

I'm quoting this post because it started the discussion and there parts of it I disagree with, but consider this a general reply. I know you're not trying to fully rehabilitate Nodoka and I agree with some of what you're saying, but I think everyone needs a reminder of just how awful she truly is.

Spoiler: Nodoka's actions and intentions

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Spoiler: reset morality

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Spoiler: Nodoka as a character

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[LoveRedHairedGirl]

I am shocked and appalled to see defenses of Nodoka in this thread. But never fear, there is still one righteous poster willing to stand up for the incontrovertible truth that Nodoka is literally the worst.

Spoiler

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Hopefully it's obvious that this is tongue-in-cheek. I do agree with some of the discussion, Nodoka isn't 100% pure evil. That being said, I think she comes closer than any other human character in this game, and her recent actions have done little to change my mind.

Bro, can you remake this picture, but with me instead of you
But seriously, your opinion is essentially the same as mine, with a few minor differences.

 

[Moonflare]

I am shocked and appalled to see defenses of Nodoka in this thread. But never fear, there is still one righteous poster willing to stand up for the incontrovertible truth that Nodoka is literally the worst.

Spoiler

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Hopefully it's obvious that this is tongue-in-cheek. I do agree with some of the discussion, Nodoka isn't 100% pure evil. That being said, I think she comes closer than any other human character in this game, and her recent actions have done little to change my mind.


I'm quoting this post because it started the discussion and there parts of it I disagree with, but consider this a general reply. I know you're not trying to fully rehabilitate Nodoka and I agree with some of what you're saying, but I think everyone needs a reminder of just how awful she truly is.

Spoiler: Nodoka's actions and intentions

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Spoiler: reset morality

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Spoiler: Nodoka as a character

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I see nothing wrong with anything you said, but I do not agree with it. Nodoka has been cursed with the burden of it all since she was a kid.

I'm not passing judgement on someone behaving as if they're "above" other people, when they actually are above other people. Although "above" is not the best word for it. Maya has been blessed by the world by retaining her memories and a loved one to fight/hope for. Nodoka has nothing but a burden, nothing falls on her lap, she has to fight for every scrap. And through it all, she's truly alone.

How maddening it must have been to have to deal with everyone around you behaving as if things are normal, and it's not that you "know" they aren't normal (as Maya and Akira do), you just have a feeling - and willingly give into that madness on the offchance your mother wasn't wrong.

Anything extreme she does, although I'm not saying should be forgiven, it's understandable to me. I can see it as lashing out against the cruel cage she's been put in. Ultimately it falls to each one for it to be enough to see her in a better light or not. I'm surprised myself because people rage against me all the time for being unforgiving towards characters and wanting to see their heads on spikes, but alas.

Also, I'm enjoying being on DeSkel's side for once, so I'll keep my position for now.

Spoiler: devil's advocate

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