Ren'Py Lessons in Love [v0.49.0] [Selebus]

[aramaug]

I tried to talk my way through my thoughts on supernatural stuff in 0.41. The first part of this post is just unstructured, rambling observations from individual events, but I tried to sum up my takeaways afterwards. And at the end I wrote some speculation on future events according to some of my theories which I doubt other people are going to agree with.

Spoiler: Fruits of Torment

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Spoiler: The Art of Drowning

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Spoiler: Io

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Spoiler: Noriko

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My big takeaways:

• We got even more evidence that Pareidolia and Sekai show up together, have the exact same goals, and try to manipulate Akira in the exact same ways. If they aren't just aspects of the same entity, they might as well be.
• In addition to the Sekai in Akira's mind (ghost Sekai), Pareidolia is also working with SeKaori and YaSekai.
• SekaiDolia's plan involves more than just Akira descending into sin. They specifically want him to break the girls.
• It seems like Nao-chan wants to bring Maya Prime back. I'm unsure whether this is to fix Sensei or if it might have something to do with USER4.
• Noriko is special in some way, as she's seemingly retaining memories and will be part of bringing Maya Prime back.
• Maya Prime is trapped in the same place as the room with clocks, which might be in the wishing well or might be in a corrupted replica.

Spoiler: Speculation on SekaiDolia's plan and the future

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[derekthered56]

I missed an earlier opportunity to talk about this, I apologise to whoever it was that brought this point before, I'll answer it here. I think for sure her cuck arc isn't over. What follows is my preliminary interpretation however, I haven't replayed the event and welcome points I may have missed.

Well, prior to the beach event, we've seen how Osako has an issue with their relationship. What we saw in this update is how Wakana does. Wakana comes to terms with the fact that she has never being able to make Osako understand that she's enough, and that if she couldn't until this point, that is very unlikely to change. Wakana would never betray Osako because she does love Osako, and her sense of duty supercedes her sexual urges. That takes a dark turn however if Wakana understands that she is not enough for Osako.

That's what will break up their relationship. When Osako says that to Wakana, the only issue is that Osako can't accept the truth that Wakana is satisfied with her as a partner (maybe not sexually, but Wakana has truly made her peace with it). But when Wakana says that to Osako it's a recognition of reality rather than a refusal of it. Nothing Wakana can do will be enough for Osako, because Osako's issue has to be fixed by Osako herself, it's not up to Wakana. And since Osako can't deal with her issues, it damns their relationship as a whole.

Their walk on the beach was the beginning of the end. From the moment Wakana realised the truth it's all downhill from here. It's no surprise she felt horny by having Akira there, and Akira seems to actively perceive that it was the two of them that should have been together there. It's because if Wakana is the one making Osako's life miserable, and the only option to make her happy is to leave it (since Osako can't fix her insecurities while by her side), then why is Wakana resisting exactly? Doesn't Osako want her to experiment with Akira? Doesn't Wakana heavily care for Akira already and most likely wants to be with him anyway? Isn't her relationship with Osako doomed by her presence as someone that can't give her partner the trust she needs in her feelings?

The foursome, for me, is based on desperation/recognition of defeat. They're going to break up, and it will fall to Wakana to force Osako into a healthier life she doesn't have the courage to reach for in the first place.

I've said it before but you're being way too lenient towards Wakana here. Wakana has an unacknowledged crush on a coworker who she has, in no particular order, asked for footrubs, stepped on, been propositioned by, had a dinner date with, invited into their home alone on their anniversary, sacrificed months of time on a project for him instead of spending time with her girlfriend, and now pushed for him to have sex in front of her. That would all be super concerning to any partner, much less someone as insecure as Osako. And Wakana's response has been to act like none of that is a big deal. That's not a mature way to deal with relationship issues and it is certainly not proving her loyalty.

Osako certainly wins the idiot award in this relationship but Wakana can't be blameless when they're both dancing around the elephant in the room that is Akira.

 

[hcguy]

the elephant in the room that is Akira

's penis.

 

[Moonflare]

I've said it before but you're being way too lenient towards Wakana here. Wakana has an unacknowledged crush on a coworker who she has, in no particular order, asked for footrubs, stepped on, been propositioned by, had a dinner date with, invited into their home alone on their anniversary, sacrificed months of time on a project for him instead of spending time with her girlfriend, and now pushed for him to have sex in front of her. That would all be super concerning to any partner, much less someone as insecure as Osako. And Wakana's response has been to act like none of that is a big deal. That's not a mature way to deal with relationship issues and it is certainly not proving her loyalty.

Osako certainly wins the idiot award in this relationship but Wakana can't be blameless when they're both dancing around the elephant in the room that is Akira.

I could be, but Osako's gripe isn't about Akira, it's about Wakana not being able to cum. Which is the latest on a long list of insecurities that she has relating to Wakana, she says so herself - Wakana's tendency to follow her whims makes her insecure.

Most of what you mentioned hasn't been witnessed by Osako, and it is a very convincing argument for her to be devoting her time to Ami/Akira, which so happens to have been found out to be the daughter/brother of the poet she had been researching way before meeting Akira.

This is like saying that the key to a year long research (at least) with a dead-end suddenly shows up in the form of a coworker, and trying to minimize that as Wakana wanting to fuck him. She probably does, but it's not that simple.

My problem with your statement, as before, is that Osako's issue with Wakana isn't and never was loyalty. Akira isn't an elephant in their room, at no point did Osako confront Wakana about him. Hell, even when she confronted him it didn't even occur to her that they'd have something. She asked him to have her drop the research. Her issue was that Wakana was prioritizing her hobby instead of her - not that she was prioritizing Akira.

Now, would it be understandable for Osako to have an issue with Wakana's relationship with Akira? absolutely. She doesn't though. Therefore I don't think I'm being lenient on Wakana. The opposite actually, that it doesn't even cross Osako's mind that Wakana might cheat on her proves that she doesn't have any issue with her behavior towards Akira (in the romantic sense) despite what the player might feel about it.

Edit: in fact, Osako could have very easily said: "Wakana, Akira exists, have you really never considered being with a man?". She doesn't. Akira's not even in her radar from what's been shown. Maybe it will be different from the foursome on, but definitely not before it.

 

[wilhermans]

Spoiler: Naked Pajama Party

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Wait.. This can't be real.

 

[JackZero]

One thought I forgot to mention is that the Rin event solidified how much of a fucking bro she is.

She's a horny, depressed, confused, erratic disaster bisexual but goddamn her heart is in the right place.

 

[gazgiz]

How do we know that breaking the girls, isn't the right thing?

Or I guess from a "play" perspective, in order to see the good endings, we have to break them right? They (we) don't get to experience the good until we push through and take part in the bad.

As we are all playing an "h-game" we should be wanting to break them (we read the tags) and as, we, the players start sympathizing with everybody more we root for Akira to not do the bad thing. We stop caring about wanting to fuck Maya, and now we all want to save Maya prime, for example.

I'm just not sure the text supports them being wrong yet, even if they feel bad.

Maybe, if Tsubasa is the second narrator, in order to save everybody you do have to turn yourself into a god (which in the modern context sounds bad, but was the whole point of a lot of ancient spiritual traditions).

 

[k1n5l4y3r]

Spoiler: About Io

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[barglenarglezous]

Spoiler: About Io

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[/QUOTE]

Sekai's agenda for Io was made clear when she told Akira to "perpetuate the cycle."

She wants Io to end up just like her.

 

[aramaug]

How do we know that breaking the girls, isn't the right thing?

Or I guess from a "play" perspective, in order to see the good endings, we have to break them right? They (we) don't get to experience the good until we push through and take part in the bad.

As we are all playing an "h-game" we should be wanting to break them (we read the tags) and as, we, the players start sympathizing with everybody more we root for Akira to not do the bad thing. We stop caring about wanting to fuck Maya, and now we all want to save Maya prime, for example.

I'm just not sure the text supports them being wrong yet, even if they feel bad.

Maybe, if Tsubasa is the second narrator, in order to save everybody you do have to turn yourself into a god (which in the modern context sounds bad, but was the whole point of a lot of ancient spiritual traditions).

For one thing, it's what Pareidolia and Sekai are directly telling us to do and I doubt that anything they want is actually in the best interests of Sensei or the girls. But it's not impossible that they're saying the correct thing for the wrong reasons, and your interpretation could be valid.

This is all speculation built on speculation built on scanty evidence, but to me it seems like Maya Prime and the first narrator had a plan that didn't involve breaking anyone. Instead they were trying to fix Akira so that he could then somehow fix the world. That might also involve him becoming a god, but in a slower fashion with a lot less suffering. And the plan seemed to be working; Sensei is slowly getting his memories back and improving as a person. Albeit in large part due to the sinkhole bringing Noriko and Niki into his life, which Maya was opposed to. My reading is that, in addition to her selfish reasons, she was worried about things accelerating too quickly and breaking him again. She has a lot of trial and error experience with what breaks Sensei, and apparently the Nakayamas are able to do things that she couldn't.

As for the second narrator, if my interpretation is correct, she doesn't actually want to fix the world. If the world is fixed, the gods dissappear and Akira loses whatever powers he is able to gain. Instead she wants to take control of the world as a kind of benevolent ruler while still allowing the cycles to continue.

I do think this is all moot from a narrative perspective; whether or not the first plan would have worked, it's not the path that things are going to go down any longer. So in that sense it will be necessary for us to see the girls get broken in order to get to the good endings on the other side. It's just possible that there was a better alternative that we won't get to see. And I think that's in line with Sel's narrative strategy; we need to feel that there was a more moral alternative in order for the dark route to have its full impact.

Again, though, these are just my personal ideas and I could be completely wrong about everything.

 

[Riolol]

I may be completely wrong here but I vaguely recall hearing Selly had said being a bad homie was the canon choice, since being a bad homie leads to missed events that would mean the green path isn't necessarily the canon path. So it's possible having sex with Io isn't even canon.

 

[Jeraviel]

btw nevermind how Selebus will make the whole "break her to fix her" work out in a way that doesn't feel delusional and wish-fullfiled, I'm more interested about how Io and Sensei will even have a conversation next time they meet.

If you choose to go home, they can eventually have a calm, more level headed talk with each other, with Akira being more mindful with his words so as to not trigger Io again

But if you choose to stay, at the end she tells him she will be unavailable for unforseeable future (basically fuck off I don't want to see you). I don't see how it can eventually lead to them talking with each other unless Io gets soft-reseted like Makoto

 

[notproudofbeinghere]

I may be completely wrong here but I vaguely recall hearing Selly had said being a bad homie was the canon choice, since being a bad homie leads to missed events that would mean the green path isn't necessarily the canon path. So it's possible having sex with Io isn't even canon.

He said it was the "more canon", simply because CH1 Sensei is an asshole, but there really isn't a canon, I think that stablish a canon will be against the point of the game, so yeah-

 

[Riolol]

He said it was the "more canon", simply because CH1 Sensei is an asshole, but there really isn't a canon, I think that stablish a canon will be against the point of the game, so yeah-

There are choices in the game where one option is clearly the canon choice, like dicking Ami for example. I think we will have a definitive canon when it's all over 10+ years from now.

 

[Jeraviel]

I may be completely wrong here but I vaguely recall hearing Selly had said being a bad homie was the canon choice, since being a bad homie leads to missed events that would mean the green path isn't necessarily the canon path. So it's possible having sex with Io isn't even canon.

The fucked up thing about bad homie is that if you were playing the game updates as they came out, there was no way to avoid going down that path because Chika's Schadenfreude event came out in v0.6, and the beach event came in v0.8. If you were a monthly reader of this VN, there is no logical way for you to have avoided bad homie. so in that sort of way, it is canon.

If our choices really don't matter, then the only thing we can control is the timing of events. Intentionally preventing Sensei from visiting Chika until the beach so as to stay as a good homie, talking with Yumi (Abyss) before going on a date with Chika (v0.15), which in turn changes the outcome of the Nodoka/Yumi event in v0.25.

I wouldn't be surprised if we have already watched many events in the "wrong" order that will effect further events beyond our imagination. if bad homie is part of the canon route, then an all green route might just be a meta route, or the player's path

 

[Leoxsama]

The fucked up thing about bad homie is that if you were playing the game updates as they came out, there was no way to avoid going down that path because Chika's Schadenfreude event came out in v0.6, and the beach event came in v0.8. If you were a monthly reader of this VN, there is no logical way for you to have avoided bad homie. so in that sort of way, it is canon.

If our choices really don't matter, then the only thing we can control is the timing of events. Intentionally preventing Sensei from visiting Chika until the beach so as to stay as a good homie, talking with Yumi (Abyss) before going on a date with Chika (v0.15), which in turn changes the outcome of the Nodoka/Yumi event in v0.25.

I wouldn't be surprised if we have already watched many events in the "wrong" order that will effect further events beyond our imagination. if bad homie is part of the canon route, then an all green route might just be a meta route, or the player's path

Your bring up an interesting point about the timing of events considering Himawari's existence and the whole time travel speculation.

 

[Riolol]

The fucked up thing about bad homie is that if you were playing the game updates as they came out, there was no way to avoid going down that path because Chika's Schadenfreude event came out in v0.6, and the beach event came in v0.8. If you were a monthly reader of this VN, there is no logical way for you to have avoided bad homie. so in that sort of way, it is canon.

If our choices really don't matter, then the only thing we can control is the timing of events. Intentionally preventing Sensei from visiting Chika until the beach so as to stay as a good homie, talking with Yumi (Abyss) before going on a date with Chika (v0.15), which in turn changes the outcome of the Nodoka/Yumi event in v0.25.

I wouldn't be surprised if we have already watched many events in the "wrong" order that will effect further events beyond our imagination. if bad homie is part of the canon route, then an all green route might just be a meta route, or the player's path

This sort of thing worries me, we could all be fucking up our games without even knowing it. I really don't want to end up having to start a new game because I triggered events in the wrong order a year beforehand.

 

[barglenarglezous]

Working on a redline path playthrough, trying to miss as many events as possible. Thus, I'm not grinding Lust. I've run into an interesting question.

Some lust events are listed in the Wiki as Not Missable, which implies they're required for progress.

The next Chika event (Detention) in my run is one of those. If I never build up the Lust, it should never trigger. Is that a softlock, or will the story progress regardless?

 

[Jeraviel]

The next Chika event (Detention) in my run is one of those. If I never build up the Lust, it should never trigger. Is that a softlock, or will the story progress regardless?

If I'm correct, you need Detention to unlock the Chika invite, and you need her first invite event (A Trip to the Moon) for the Halloween.

 

[NicolasL4D]

I may be completely wrong here but I vaguely recall hearing Selly had said being a bad homie was the canon choice, since being a bad homie leads to missed events that would mean the green path isn't necessarily the canon path. So it's possible having sex with Io isn't even canon.

I always saw "canon choice" as a misnomer. Nothing is canonical. What's canonical is what YOU pick.

You shouldn't be playing what is canonical, at least in my opinion. You're given a choice, and you should pick the choices you want to go off of. Even if it does annoy Selebus as you see in a later Ami event.