Ren'Py Lessons in Love [v0.49.0] [Selebus]

[PhiloPhilo]

Ayane's kind of a bitch. At the very least, for the way she's all over her friend's uncle in a very purposefully public and provocative way. (I think people ignore that because they have context/it's funny/it's a porn* game.) Arguably for other reasons based on actions/demeanor, even if she doesn't necessarily mean it. Ami takes it especially hard because she's genuinely ass shit insane, through no fault of her own or otherwise. That being said, Ami absolutely deserved to get slapped. In no world is taking a scared (quivering,) blindfolded teen with no survival training deep into a random forest justifiable. At best it's a short-sighted and dangerous decision made out of anger (being mad isn't an excuse for 'oops killed my friend lmao.' That's how I ended up in juvenile hall.) I would have slapped the fuck out of Ami if she was my daughter/friend or whatever.

All of this is to say that Ayane and Ami are C tier LiL characters and fell off during the Namek saga. We should be focusing more on sweethearts that wouldn't hurt a fly like Sana, Miku and Yasu. This is now a "nice girl with severe mental issues" appreciate thread.

 

[aramaug]

I guess I heavily disagree with both of your takes on this.

Ami wasn't pushing Ayane away. Ayane pushed Ami away by not only sleeping with Ami's uncle behind her back, but also with the reset stuff, and then pushed Ami away even more after Maya scared her.

Even before all of that, Ayane said crap like this on Ami's birthday:

Spoiler

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Ami and Ayane literally formed the Sensei Love Squad, and Ami being Ami isn't anything new. She didn't seem to do anything to change their friendship. Ayane did (and Maya). I'm not sure where Ami pushing Ayane away in chapter 3 comes from, tbh. She was trying to rekindle their friendship.

Frankly, even Ayane's problems with Maya and Sensei are her own fault. She treated Maya as a threat before making it to the roof, and basically spent years harassing Sensei while Maya had to hide their relationship. Ayane was even the one who pushed for a sexual relationship with Sensei, surely knowing it'd at least change her relationships with Ami and Sensei. It, of course, is also something Maya likely hated, like how she hated Ayane flaunting her relationship with Sensei during the resets:

Spoiler

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Ayane's actions are a large part of why her relationships are the way they are. I'm curious if she may have even played a part in why her father neglects her and her mother abandoned her, but I'm trying to give her the benefit of the doubt.

Anyway, all that you showed of Ami is after Ayane messed up their friendship, slept with her uncle, acted way different than usual, bullied her, and was just implying that she was somehow involved in Sensei breaking and being incapacitated for 2 months. On top of this, Ami was apparently finally breaking after all of the years of crap she's been put through by everyone around her. Hence why Ami has short hair now.

But the power imbalance I'm referring to was shown blatantly in Ayane's Chapter 3 'Double Jeopardy' Event:

Spoiler

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How someone could consider this as them being "equal" is beyond me.

Ayane definitely played a part in Ami's recent breaking, and it's likely why she wishes she had a friend she could trust:

Spoiler

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I'd be curious how Ami is going to react to Ayane now, but it'd probably be more of the same. Ami seems even more submissive now.

Yes, there have been times when Ayane has made mistakes or not necessarily been the best friend. She's a teenage girl after all. Obviously she's hurt Maya by constantly talking about Sensei around him, but that was never intentional. Sleeping with Sensei behind Ami's back is bad, but I'd argue that Ami sleeping with him behind Ayane's back is just as bad, knowing how Ayane feels about him. Admittedly, it was pretty shitty of Ayane (as well as a questionable decision) to reveal to Ami that she knows about Ami+Sensei and to not reveal her own relationship at the same time, but that's a later event.

I think what happens in "Double Jeopardy" has a lot less to do with Ami "obeying" Ayane than it does with Sensei asking her to be less clingy. And in any case it seems pretty reasonable to me for Ayane to want Ami to allow her to be alone with Sensei on ocassion; that's not something she should have to force a friend to allow.

I do want to be clear that while I think Ami has been a bad friend to Ayane, I also sympathize with her and recognize that a lot of it is because she's just as broken as her uncle. I suspect she wasn't being truthful in "...But Home is Nowhere" and does actually care about Ayane, but at the time she was broken from Sensei breaking and wanted to lash out at Ayane and push her away so that she could be alone with Sensei.

My memory of what happens in Chapter 3 admittedly might be faulty, I've only played it once and it's been a little while. I just remember that by the time we got to Maya's psycho Ami "reveal", I was already getting exasperated with how Selebus seemed to be turning Ami into a stock yandere, and then was very pleasantly surprised when we found out it was (at least mostly) an act. I'm really looking forward to tracking how Ami acts with that added context during my replay, and will report back with what I find.

In any case, I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree, given how drastically different our views on the matter are.

 

[Moonflare]

Like i originally said, this here's a placeholder for Wvm, so the longer that takes the longer i can tunnel vision all these goodies

This is how I imagine your brain after some things that are going to happen in this game:

Spoiler: Once, Twice, Ten times

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Oh man, you'll see such beautiful things that maybe you'll wish you hadn't. Having LiL as a placeholder for a normal story sounds to me like playing emotional russian roulette while waiting for your turn to buy bread.

You're past "this town has two halves", right?

 

[Antosha]

This is now a "nice girl with severe mental issues" appreciate thread.

I mean, I’m all for talking about Sana, Yasu, et al. And I don’t wanna get serious or anything….

But is there a single character in this game who doesn’t have “severe mental issues”?

Granted, not many of them are nice, but Sel has worked hard to make sure that they all have a redeeming human side.

Except Nodoka. She’s just flat-out evil.

 

[Riolol]

I mean, I’m all for talking about Sana, Yasu, et al. And I don’t wanna get serious or anything….

But is there a single character in this game who doesn’t have “severe mental issues”?

Granted, not many of them are nice, but Sel has worked hard to make sure that they all have a redeeming human side.

Except Nodoka. She’s just flat-out evil.

I have often thought this story would work in an asylum rather than a school. Wakana would make a very hot doctor.

 

[Moonflare]

But is there a single character in this game who doesn’t have “severe mental issues”?

No, and probably by design. Excellent narratives will have their central theme reflected in all its characters (or at least the central ones). In fact, that tends to be a strategy for determining the central theme of a story: what is the question/struggle shared by everyone in it?

The in-universe explanation could just be that all those in the simulation had to be somewhat broken. It would be kind of funny if the whole simulation is an extreme kind of therapy, in which the patient repeats their life until they're able to finally break through from their trauma lol (kind of an anti/weird cousin to No Exit, by Sartre, for those that like those references).

 

[Thatguy125Ab]

This is how I imagine your brain after some things that are going to happen in this game:

Spoiler: Once, Twice, Ten times

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Oh man, you'll see such beautiful things that maybe you'll wish you hadn't. Having LiL as a placeholder for a normal story sound to me like playing emotional russian roulette while waiting for your turn to buy bread.

You're past "this town has two halves", right?

yeah, is that the one where Sens steals Yumi's first kiss? that felt a little whiplash-y

 

[PhiloPhilo]

I mean, I’m all for talking about Sana, Yasu, et al. And I don’t wanna get serious or anything….

But is there a single character in this game who doesn’t have “severe mental issues”?

Granted, not many of them are nice, but Sel has worked hard to make sure that they all have a redeeming human side.

Except Nodoka. She’s just flat-out evil.

Genuinely, I think it depends what you mean by mental issues and by "severe". I wouldn't classify a lot of the main cast as having 'severe mental issues' honestly, maybe just issues or disorders. But a lot of them just have personality quirks, shitty aspects, or are dumb teens. Things like Noriko's obsessiveness might be due to abandonment issues and not necessarily seen as something as "severe" or crippling long-term.

I sympathize with Yumi a lot. She grew up around crime and hard drugs before presumably (iffy on it) being homeless for a good chunk of time. She's an ass hole, but is that not to be expected? And it's shown that she can change somewhat/slowly. She's not psychopathic or psychotic or anything, just an angry kid with a fucked up perspective and rearing. I've beat the shit out of kids for less than what Nodoka did. Deserved, honestly.

Chika's just an obsessive teen mostly, to a high degree. Kirin's literally just a walking vagina monster. Otoha might have mood swings/behavioral issues or something I guess(?) but otherwise is just another (kind of a bitch?) teenage girl. Tsuneyo... She's probably high functioning if we're being honest, but she's mostly fine. Molly and Maya probably don't have serious mental health issues/disorders either. And Makoto had a major depressive episode or two, but that might be over, and she may not suffer from any type of depression going forward. Knock on wood. And Touka is actually just some spoiled rich girl with a lot on her shoulders, albeit extremely level-headed and well adjusted considering her posh lifestyle.

Okay, so it's a smaller slice of the cast than I thought, but still. We have a few relatively normal main cast members without any major mental health or personality disorders. And some of the ones that do may owe theirs in part at least to 'supernatural' causes, like Sana (If you count her visions as "issues" and speculate how they may/may not affect her behavior, mood, etc.,) Yasu, and maybe Nodoka if there is weird shit going on with her.

*Took out the part about Futaba's body dysmorphia. I'm not sure how it's classified medically speaking, and don't want to downplay it unintentionally. Her possible depression linked to that is another concern I didn't mention or factor in. I'm not qualified to speak on it. Acknowledging my ignorance for transparency.

 

[Moonflare]

Genuinely, I think it depends what you mean by mental issues and by "severe". I wouldn't classify a lot of the main cast as having 'severe mental issues' honestly, maybe just issues or disorders. But a lot of them just have personality quirks, shitty aspects, or are dumb teens. Things like Futaba's body dysmorphia might be arguable under what you consider 'extreme' unless she really goes down a dark place in the future. (I don't want to downplay that condition at all, I respect how serious it is and how it affects people, I guess I just don't know how it's labeled medically or seen.) And Noriko's obsessiveness might be due to abandonment issues and not necessarily seen as something as "severe" or crippling long-term.

I sympathize with Yumi a lot. She grew up around crime and hard drugs before presumably (iffy on it) being homeless for a good chunk of time. She's an ass hole, but is that not to be expected? And it's shown that she can change somewhat/slowly. She's not psychopathic or psychotic or anything, just an angry kid with a fucked up perspective and rearing. I've beat the shit out of kids for less than what Nodoka did. Deserved, honestly.

Chika's just an obsessive teen mostly, to a high degree. Kirin's literally just a walking vagina monster. Otoha might have mood swings/behavioral issues or something I guess(?) but otherwise is just another (kind of a bitch?) teenage girl. Tsuneyo... She's probably high functioning if we're being honest, but she's mostly fine. Molly and Maya probably don't have serious mental health issues/disorders either. And Makoto had a major depressive episode or two, but that might be over, and she may not suffer from any type of depression going forward. Knock on wood. And Touka is actually just some spoiled rich girl with a lot on her shoulders, albeit extremely level-headed and well adjusted considering her posh lifestyle.

Okay, so it's a smaller slice of the cast than I thought, but still. We have a few relatively normal main cast members without any major mental health or personality disorders. And some of the ones that do may owe theirs in part at least to 'supernatural' causes, like Sana (If you count her visions as "issues" and speculate how they may/may not affect her behavior, mood, etc.,) Yasu, and maybe Nodoka if there is weird shit going on with her.

*A lot of grammar edits.

Counterpoint: the severe mental issue is that they're all attracted to Akira.

Spoiler: i rest my case

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[PhiloPhilo]

Counterpoint: the severe mental issue is that they're all attracted to Akira.

Spoiler: i rest my case

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Harsh, but fair. Wanting to fuck a teacher is pretty normal, though. You're the weird one, not me.

 

[Riolol]

No, and probably by design. Excellent narratives will have their central theme reflected in all its characters (or at least the central ones). In fact, that tends to be a strategy for determining the central theme of a story: what is the question/struggle shared by everyone in it?

The in-universe explanation could just be that all those in the simulation had to be somewhat broken. It would be kind of funny if the whole simulation is an extreme kind of therapy, in which the patient repeats their life until they're able to finally break through from their trauma lol (kind of an anti/weird cousin to No Exit, by Sartre, for those that like those references).

What if Kumon-mi is basically Arkham City?

 

[Antosha]

No, and probably by design. Excellent narratives will have their central theme reflected in all its characters (or at least the central ones). In fact, that tends to be a strategy for determining the central theme of a story: what is the question/struggle shared by everyone in it?

The in-universe explanation could just be that all those in the simulation had to be somewhat broken. It would be kind of funny if the whole simulation is an extreme kind of therapy, in which the patient repeats their life until they're able to finally break through from their trauma lol (kind of an anti/weird cousin to No Exit, by Sartre, for those that like those references).

Do you know, you just inspired a thought. Do you know the science fiction movie

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? A scientist wakes up, disoriented, to find the whole world absolutely empty. He runs around looking for people, and finally finds two others. At first they’re all very excited to see each other… but eventually we begin to realize… they’re all a bit out there.

In the end, it turns out

Spoiler

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I’m just now wondering if LiL isn’t somehow similar.

 

[DeSkel15]

What if Kumon-mi is basically Arkham City?

That'd probably make Sensei: The Joker and Ami: Harley Quinn.

Noriko is still The Batman:

Random Thought: Noriko is kind of like the Batman of LiL. Proficient in most things, intelligent as hell, stubborn as fuck, and is more or less always prepared:

Spoiler

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They also both might be furries. I mean, Batman dresses like a bat and tends to want to fuck a cat.

I kind of want to say Kirin is Catwoman, but Yumi is the criminal thief of the cast, and Noriko x Yumi seems...interesting. Not to mention Yumi in that catsuit would probably be popular.

There's some ideas for fanart.

 

[Riolol]

That'd probably make Sensei: The Joker and Ami: Harley Quinn.

Noriko is still The Batman:
I kind of want to say Kirin is Catwoman, but Yumi is the criminal thief of the cast, and Noriko x Yumi seems...interesting. Not to mention Yumi in that catsuit would probably be popular.

There's some ideas for fanart.

I just meant it could be a city-wide asylum, not that's it's literally Arkham City but you had me at Yumi in a catsuit.

 

[Moonflare]

Do you know, you just inspired a thought. Do you know the movie

You must be registered to see the links

? A scientist wakes up, disoriented, to find the whole world absolutely empty. He runs around looking for people, and finally finds two others. At first they’re all very excited to see each other… but eventually we begin to realize… they’re all a bit out there.

In the end, it turns out

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

I’m just now wondering if LiL isn’t somehow similar.

I did not know that one, after reading about it, it is quite interesting. I think that it's possible the end to LiL might resemble some aspects of it, yes. It is said a couple of times that Akira is neither alive nor dead (which can mean a number of things). I, for one, quite like the image of him falling to his death and the entire simulation happening mid-flight. As it ends (if it does), time resumes and he hits the asphalt. I'm not putting forward that this is how I'd like it to end, but the image itself is interesting.

However, it might also have to do with the more recent movie adaptation to Stephen King's 1408. In that story, the protagonist is locked inside a room and experiences many things while trying to escape it. Eventually he can either escape or not, multiple endings were shot. The aspect I think might transfer to LiL is that in one of the endings he does escape and no one believes him, until eventually one piece of proof is found that it all actually happened. My guess is that, if Akira lives by the end of this, there should be some form of disconnect between real life and the thousands of years spent inside the simulation. At least until we reach some form of epilogue that explains why even if it didn't happen, it still did in the ways that matter.

Of course, we could also step out into an apocalyptic setting after exiting the simulation. Or even a supernatural one. There are so many possibilities.

 

[Fire Lord Zuko]

That'd probably make Sensei: The Joker and Ami: Harley Quinn.

Noriko is still The Batman:
I kind of want to say Kirin is Catwoman, but Yumi is the criminal thief of the cast, and Noriko x Yumi seems...interesting. Not to mention Yumi in that catsuit would probably be popular.

There's some ideas for fanart.

I was gonna say Ayane was Batman because she’s rich, lives in a mansion, knows how to kick some ass, and has a butler named Alfred Geoffrey. But that Noriko example actually makes a lot of sense.

Himawari would also be Clayface because of her shapeshifting abilities and Yasu can be Two Face thanks to her split personality.

 

[Moonflare]

I just meant it could be a city-wide asylum, not that's it's literally Arkham City but you had me at Yumi in a catsuit.

Spoiler: just missing the suit

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[Riolol]

I was gonna say Ayane was Batman because she’s rich, lives in a mansion, knows how to kick some ass, and has a butler named Alfred Geoffrey. But that Noriko example actually makes a lot of sense.

Himawari would also be Clayface because of her shapeshifting abilities and Yasu can be Two Face thanks to her split personality.

Miku is probably the furthest on track to becoming Batman just because she watched her parents be murdered by a criminal.

 

[Fire Lord Zuko]

Miku is probably the furthest on track to becoming Batman just because she watched her parents be murdered by a criminal.

Omg you’re so fucking right actually!

Bro, Batman would have so many potential Robins he could train if he visited Kumon-mi. It’s like a rite of passage for his sidekicks at this point.

Be young. Go through a traumatic experience. Get taken in by Batman. Become Robin and beat the fuck out of some criminals.

 

[Antosha]

Omg you’re so fucking right actually!

Bro, Batman would have so many potential Robins he could train if he visited Kumon-mi. It’s like a rite of passage for his sidekicks at this point.

Be young. Go through a traumatic experience. Get taken in by Batman. Become Robin and beat the fuck out of some criminals.

Sort of like all the Spideys in the Spiderverse movies all losing their Uncle Ben.