Ren'Py Lessons in Love [v0.53.0] [Selebus]

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All this himawari talk has legit steeled my resolve to make a fresh replay of the game starting from .50.Also,while im not really good at theorizing when it comes to shit THIS vague ill just throw my hat in and say that something interesting in LiL that has appeared twice is eye colour.Once was when Sekai temporarely descended in Kaoris body and french kissed Akira and the second time is Himawari hersself.What i mean is that i hereby im a supporter of the ``Himawari is Akiras and Ayanes child from a previous cycle``theory. Moonflare and aramaug have provided some very compelling arguments about why that is the case so i will add 2 more reasons.


The first one is the simple fact that Ayanes pregnancy is confirmed(On top of the previously mentioned reasons)

The second is that Himawaris eyes share Ayanes blue shade(While other characters like io and makoto have blue eyes they arent the SAME shade and,call this a strech but as i said Sel used a change in eye colour before.Once when Sekai temprarely possesed Kaori to french Kiss Akira and the second is when she(Sekai) ordered Ramen at Tsuneyos place)
 
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Moonflare

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PhiloPhilo said:
A lot of it comes down to the can of worms that is Himawari's character. She's appeared in many other places and to other people, and her unique desires have been hinted at. It's clear that she does not share exactly and only the desires of another. We know from this scene as well that, for one, she doesn't agree with what's happening, and two, she's afraid of the repercussions she's threatened with. She doesn't necessarily want to "fight back" in this instance, as in initiate a confrontation, — although that's likely because she simply can't — but she doesn't agree with it and doesn't seem to want any part of it. She also seems to disagree with 79's view of her role in the show and why she's there, which would add context to the entire event and her involvement, but she's cut off.
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She absolutely wants to help Akira, though. She cares about him and has helped him and others in the past. That's likely why she's upset with his treatment in Untitled. That doesn't necessitate her knowledge of how exactly the show is run, why it's run the exact way it is, or the knowledge/true motivations of any other character, though. She certainly knows more than us (about certain subjects,) but it's not clear how much she knows about other entities, the cycle, or therein.

On the subject of medicine, I'm not a medical professional either, but I have taken medical/field-medicine courses. Some times you do have to "break" something, but that's usually not the case. If it is here, which there may be some argumentation for in-game, it's not clear if, or how and why Himawari would know that, either. We also don't know if everyone's idea of "fixing" or "helping" Akira is the same, either. Some people seem to want to fix him by turning him into the ultimate teenage-fucking monster. We have to be careful not to ascribe knowledge to characters without seeing them possess it, and we unfortunately don't know a lot about Himawari. I recently made a post rambling about why she even exists, and that much isn't clear (in my mind.)
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Himawari doesn't just want to fight back, she does it at every opportunity. I agree with the initial take that she's fighting back as hard as she can in "untitled" as well. Prior to "untitled", she bent the rules whenever she could, even by telling us that she's bending them (she's giving us information that there are rules for instance). She may also have been the narrator that tells Akira that in a million other cycles this one might be the different one, where things can change (they most likely did in part because of her interference), and that he'd probably hate her for putting him through these things, but it would be worth it (this would align with her being present in Sekai's restoration, since she needs to make sure he's able to deal with it, because he needs to remember Sekai in order to grow/reject her properly - which he does in "i will deliver you to the fireflies").

In "world of lines" she straight up tells Akira how to properly avoid a blackout due to remembering stuff (it's about how he feels, not the information itself) - and that's after declaring she was instructed not to reveal this (then she gives it an ever greater "fuck you" to the rules by slipping a sunflower picture into Akira's pocket).

You mentioned the Ayane saving, and she most likely saves her again in "paper city". She is hinted to be one of the entities that sends Nao-chan to help Akira and, even though she understands he has to go through hardships, she seems intent on keeping it to the least amount of suffering possible - that's the fighting back in "untitled". She's aware that without her, Akira would be factory reset then and there, and after she is forced to leave by Long Maya threatening her existence, it falls to Sekai (presumably) to come in to save him from it.

Lastly, if it was Himawari at the auto-pilot disengage sequence (there's evidence that it is due to the 4th hidden choice of song being locked by Ayane affection), she tells off both Pareidolia and the Ninth God for him, and straight up tells him that "they are coming for him" (likely to be the same they that sent Nao-chan to help).

So yeah, Himawari's a fighter, a real kick to the shin of supernatural entities.
 
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gazgiz

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PhiloPhilo said:
A lot of it comes down to the can of worms that is Himawari's character. She's appeared in many other places and to other people, and her unique desires have been hinted at. It's clear that she does not share exactly and only the desires of another. We know from this scene as well that, for one, she doesn't agree with what's happening, and two, she's afraid of the repercussions she's threatened with. She doesn't necessarily want to "fight back" in this instance, as in initiate a confrontation, — although that's likely because she simply can't — but she doesn't agree with it and doesn't seem to want any part of it. She also seems to disagree with 79's view of her role in the show and why she's there, which would add context to the entire event and her involvement, but she's cut off.
View attachment 3828123
She absolutely wants to help Akira, though. She cares about him and has helped him and others in the past. That's likely why she's upset with his treatment in Untitled. That doesn't necessitate her knowledge of how exactly the show is run, why it's run the exact way it is, or the knowledge/true motivations of any other character, though. She certainly knows more than us (about certain subjects,) but it's not clear how much she knows about other entities, the cycle, or therein.
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Again, speaking as a professional actor here, there are a lot of ways you can read this dialog, and without a whole bunch of context clues almost all of them are valid. We have to be really careful to not let the author manipulate you into a false reading. For example you said: "but she doesn't agree with it and doesn't seem to want any part of it." But what she said is that she didn't agree to "this." For example, I could ask you to help me save a life, but then you find out that means amputating a limb with gangrene without any kind of anesthetic. Or I could tell you that I need your help somebody overcoming their fear, only to find out that I'm asking you to do Exposure therapy, which can be a real traumatic experience if you're not forward.

I'm not saying I'm right at all, I'm just saying that there is some big wiggle room in the text here, and that Sel is a very very very deliberate writer.

On the subject of medicine, I'm not a medical professional either, but I have taken medical/field-medicine courses. Some times you do have to "break" something, but that's usually not the case. If it is here, which there may be some argumentation for in-game, it's not clear if, or how and why Himawari would know that, either. We also don't know if everyone's idea of "fixing" or "helping" Akira is the same, either. Some people seem to want to fix him by turning him into the ultimate teenage-fucking monster. We have to be careful not to ascribe knowledge to characters without seeing them possess it, and we unfortunately don't know a lot about Himawari. I recently made a post rambling about why she even exists, and that much isn't clear (in my mind.)
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I agree with a lot of this, save modern medicine has a lot more "breaking" going on it then you think that it does. Chemo therapy is maybe the best example. But you can also find a really hard to listen to episode of Radiolab about how pretty much most doctors have DNR orders because they know just how badly you're broken in order to save you. I'm also deeply agnostic on the "ultimate teenage-fuck monster," being de jure bad. IRL absolutely bad. "Higher Powers" do work outside mortal frameworks of morality. Jehovah never asked for Mary's consent before knocking her up with Jesus.

Most of what we know seems to imply that the world does keep going, though. Some of my knowledge on this may have been changed in the early game rewrites to be fair, I'm not sure. But there have been seemingly thousands/millions of 'Akiras' that interacted with the world through the resets, but only this Akira is the one we see. It's also the one Maya says is "really you"* when she starts accepting that this Akira is the "real" Akira for lack of a better term. In the same way that the Maya in game currently isn't really "her" in Akira's eyes.
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I'm talking more meta-textually here and when the game goes 4th wall breaking. The thing about cycles, and if we trust that this is a cycle, then even this point in the game has to have happened before. The billions of Akiras that have happend before are only a "thing that happend" when we are actively playing the game. When we turn it off...non-exitance for everybody.

I'd agree that Sel takes a lot of influence and style from various sources, but I think it's for that reason that you can't really read the game in the same way you read a specific author or philosopher. It's frankly a jumbled mess in a lot of places, at least until we get concrete answers on some things and what they mean.

Edit: Just realized I've been listening to the untitled children's show theme for like five minutes straight...
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There is a fine line between a "jumbled mess" and "begging for a deeper hermeneutical reading." The first time I played a year ago, I didn't make it to the end of chapter 1 because I thought it was just a bunch of edgy shit, but the first season change convinced me that there was a method to Sel's clear madness.
 
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PhiloPhilo

PhiloPhilo

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Moonflare said:
Himawari doesn't just want to fight back, she does it at every opportunity. I agree with the initial take that she's fighting back as hard as she can in "untitled" as well. Prior to "untitled", she bent the rules whenever she could, even by telling us that she's bending them (she's giving us information that there are rules for instance). She may also have been the narrator that tells Akira that in a million other cycles this one might be the different one, where things can change (they most likely did in part because of her interference), and that he'd probably hate her for putting him through these things, but it would be worth it (this would align with her being present in Sekai's restoration, since she needs to make sure he's able to deal with it, because he needs to remember Sekai in order to grow/reject her properly - which he does in "i will deliver you to the fireflies").

In "world of lines" she straight up tells Akira how to properly avoid a blackout due to remembering stuff (it's about how he feels, not the information itself) - and that's after declaring she was instructed not to reveal this (then she gives it an ever greater "fuck you" to the rules by slipping a sunflower picture into Akira's pocket).

You mentioned the Ayane saving, and she most likely saves her again in "paper city". She is hinted to be one of the entities that sends Nao-chan to help Akira and, even though she understands he has to go through hardships, she seems intent on keeping it to the least amount of suffering possible - that's the fighting back in "untitled". She's aware that without her, Akira would be factory reset then and there, and after she is forced to leave by Long Maya threatening her existence, it falls to Sekai (presumably) to come in to save him from it.

Lastly, if it was Himawari at the auto-pilot disengage sequence (there's evidence that it is due to the 4th hidden choice of song being locked by Ayane affection), she tells off both Pareidolia and the Ninth God for him, and straight up tells him that "they are coming for him" (likely to be the same they that sent Nao-chan to help).

So yeah, Himawari's a fighter, a real kick to the shin of supernatural entities.
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I agree 100%, just tried to word it in a different way to avoid the confusion that she's somehow engaging others directly in hostilities, such as in conflict. I still think the best description of her I can give is my earlier one, that she's a "meddler" who defies others through actions, sneakily. Fortunately, I have lore chads to point out everything for me. I never knew about the fourth choice behind an affection check though. I must have missed that. I really need a re-read of some things.
Comiies said:
The second is that Himawaris eyes share Ayanes blue shade(While other characters like io and makoto have blue eyes they arent the SAME shade and,call this a strech but as i said Sel used a change in eye colour before.Once when Sekai temprarely possesed Kaori to french Kiss Akira and the second is when she(Sekai) ordered Ramen at Tsuneyos place)
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I mean they do have like, the same exact eyes to add to your point lol
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PhiloPhilo said:
I agree 100%, just tried to word it in a different way to avoid the confusion that she's somehow engaging others directly in hostilities, such as in conflict. I still think the best description of her I can give is my earlier one, that she's a "meddler" who defies others through actions, sneakily. Fortunately, I have lore chads to point out everything for me. I never knew about the fourth choice behind an affection check though. I must have missed that. I really need a re-read of some things.


I mean they do have like, the same exact eyes to add to your point lol
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Oh she has her eyes
 
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PhiloPhilo

PhiloPhilo

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gazgiz said:
Again, speaking as a professional actor here, there are a lot of ways you can read this dialog, and without a whole bunch of context clues almost all of them are valid. We have to be really careful to not let the author manipulate you into a false reading. For example you said: "but she doesn't agree with it and doesn't seem to want any part of it." But what she said is that she didn't agree to "this." For example, I could ask you to help me save a life, but then you find out that means amputating a limb with gangrene without any kind of anesthetic. Or I could tell you that I need your help somebody overcoming their fear, only to find out that I'm asking you to do Exposure therapy, which can be a real traumatic experience if you're not forward.

I'm not saying I'm right at all, I'm just saying that there is some big wiggle room in the text here, and that Sel is a very very very deliberate writer.



I agree with a lot of this, save modern medicine has a lot more "breaking" going on it then you think that it does. Chemo therapy is maybe the best example. But you can also find a really hard to listen to episode of Radiolab about how pretty much most doctors have DNR orders because they know just how badly you're broken in order to save you. I'm also deeply agnostic on the "ultimate teenage-fuck monster," being de jure bad. IRL absolutely bad. "Higher Powers" do work outside mortal frameworks of morality. Jehovah never asked for Mary's consent before knocking her up with Jesus.



I'm talking more meta-textually here and when the game goes 4th wall breaking. The thing about cycles, and if we trust that this is a cycle, then even this point in the game has to have happened before. The billions of Akiras that have happend before are only a "thing that happend" when we are actively playing the game. When we turn it off...non-exitance for everybody.



There is a fine line between a "jumbled mess" and "begging for a deeper hermeneutical reading." The first time I played a year ago, I didn't make it to the end of chapter 1 because I thought it was just a bunch of edgy shit, but the first season change convinced me that there was a method to Sel's clear madness.
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Eh... I'm not sure if I'm seeing things the way you're seeing things fully. Of course there are a lot of ways to interpret things without being given the answer directly, and a lot of the story is purposefully left vague and up to interpretation, or simply isn't answered yet. But if the game is begging for you to read into it because it has the answers, then seemingly straight dialogue from an otherwise mysterious character is not where we should be poking holes. Regardless of exactly what she means by "didn't agree to this," she didn't agree to it. Your own example is seemingly what happens in Untitled. Whatever reasons she's there for, she's there, then sees what's happening, and she doesn't agree with it. And the information we have about her can only point us in so many directions until we have more.

I don't agree that teenage-fucking monster is 'bad' from an inherent or objective standpoint in the game either, as that's clearly a good or neutral thing in some characters' eyes. HOPE is all about impregnating vessels. But the point was that people's ideas of fixing someone and 'good' are different. It's abundantly clear that Himawari and someone like 79, HOPE, etc. are different in that regard, and that's the author's intent in writing her to be appalled. It's not the author tricking us. Not unless Himawari is revealed to be evil, or something.

The game does break the 4th wall and seem aware of its own 'non-reality' but that doesn't discredit anything else shown or stated in the game. If you're referring to characters telling us the only way out is to stop playing, then yeah, that's true for us and in real life. But does that negate what we know or are told about the world having existed and almost certainly being able to continue without us, knowing that the player and current version of the character we primarily see the world through can isn't necessary for the world and characters to exist in-universe? I highly doubt it.

I'm not sure if you're referring to hermeneutical reading more as a methodology for adding context and information to reach new conclusions, or more traditionally as interpreting scriptural or canonical themes and messages, in this case of the story/game. The first is kind of what we've been doing the whole time (others for a long time, me for a couple weeks) and the second is just one piece of the whole of the first. I think trying to use a specific framework to fully understand and question the game might trip you up, though. Especially in trying to apply theological or philosophical perspectives to things where the exact influence and perspective is unclear, or is an amalgamation.


Moonflare said:
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Oh shit, I didn't even realize. My GOAT
 
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Moonflare said:
Evil twin. Nodoka says that when she's in insane mode it's actually Shiori.
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I do love when NiB is referenced yet actually using it as a crutch is not recommended since not noly is it incomplete but it will aso be re-written.Praise be
 
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Moonflare

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barglenarglezous said:
That definitely recontextualizes the event where manic Nodoka lures Akira outside of the boundary and he meets Himawari.
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Yes, I thought that myself as well. But unfortunately Himawari does not regard her as a coworker, as she should have for her Shiori.
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I think it's more likely that Nodoka stumbled upon Shiori (Himawari's coworker) just a month ago, and that's what Himawari's referencing in "scientific research". Then Nodoka kept the name "Shiori" from that encounter, just as she does to all sorts of fragmented information. But who knows... It could very well be that Shiori directed her there, and even Nodoka is a part of their plans to interfere with this cycle.
 
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gazgiz said:
Again, speaking as a professional actor here, there are a lot of ways you can read this dialog, and without a whole bunch of context clues almost all of them are valid. We have to be really careful to not let the author manipulate you into a false reading. For example you said: "but she doesn't agree with it and doesn't seem to want any part of it." But what she said is that she didn't agree to "this." For example, I could ask you to help me save a life, but then you find out that means amputating a limb with gangrene without any kind of anesthetic. Or I could tell you that I need your help somebody overcoming their fear, only to find out that I'm asking you to do Exposure therapy, which can be a real traumatic experience if you're not forward.

I'm not saying I'm right at all, I'm just saying that there is some big wiggle room in the text here, and that Sel is a very very very deliberate writer.



I agree with a lot of this, save modern medicine has a lot more "breaking" going on it then you think that it does. Chemo therapy is maybe the best example. But you can also find a really hard to listen to episode of Radiolab about how pretty much most doctors have DNR orders because they know just how badly you're broken in order to save you. I'm also deeply agnostic on the "ultimate teenage-fuck monster," being de jure bad. IRL absolutely bad. "Higher Powers" do work outside mortal frameworks of morality. Jehovah never asked for Mary's consent before knocking her up with Jesus.



I'm talking more meta-textually here and when the game goes 4th wall breaking. The thing about cycles, and if we trust that this is a cycle, then even this point in the game has to have happened before. The billions of Akiras that have happend before are only a "thing that happend" when we are actively playing the game. When we turn it off...non-exitance for everybody.



There is a fine line between a "jumbled mess" and "begging for a deeper hermeneutical reading." The first time I played a year ago, I didn't make it to the end of chapter 1 because I thought it was just a bunch of edgy shit, but the first season change convinced me that there was a method to Sel's clear madness.
Click to expand...
Perhaps a sort of digression but I fully agree that Sel is a very deliberate writer. He just stuffed too many symbols and content and tried to confuse readers in every possible way. I basically considered LiL as a deranged piece of work at first but progressly I started to "grape the line"— There are themes always reoccuring and reiterating from different respectives for so many times that it started to get tedious.

As for those "Higher Powers", I would believe they are merely "machinery" and mirrors on the theatre as almost everything in LiL is more or less parodied and carnivalied. Even on itself as it's blatantly written "Non est deus" (There is no God or He is not God. Thus you must apply poetics rather than theology). I hold deep belief that everything here starts, pivots and ends on distorted figure Akira (and perhaps its corresponding in reality, the player, though I have yet to see more content on free will and agency of the players in LiL) and others are "interchangeable" (e.g. Maya—Sekai).

By the way apropos of those theological discussion, I in general see them simply as post-modernism cliches since there are really nothing worth talking about individually. Trite Dostoevskian ramble at best.
 
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4.10 star(s) 338 Votes