Ren'Py Lessons in Love [v0.53.0] [Selebus]

[Moonflare]

What do you mean you'd rather chinami die? I'd let her play with my toy

Chinami dies = characters take sanity damage and she comes back anyway.

Chinami "plays" = I take sanity damage.

Not sure if joking, but let's go down that rabbit hole.

Very interesting, as I'm not versed in the Persona universe. Himawari/Ayane seem to parallel that dynamic the most out of all of them. Unsure if the shadow world would be the city itself or the other dimensions they slip into sometimes though. I guess it could be both since it's just an inspiration.

 

[Breadtaker]

Okay Ami appreciation post for her birthday

Spoiler

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To me, Ami is without question the most exciting character in the game. Sometimes endearing and wholesome, other times manipulative and hostile. She's anything but mild. Anticipating how she will leverage her position and her innate social intelligence puts every scene with her on edge. Her mixed signals make you regularly reevaluate how smart, how caring, how callous, how honest, how crazy she really is.

But imo, what really sets Ami apart from typical crazy characters is that she is understandable. I feel like I get it. It's still hard to read her intentions but why she feels this way makes sense.

The obvious starting point is Ami losing her parents in a traumatic way. But that's only the start. Lost in her grief, she found in Sensei not just companionship in a person who shares her pain but a purpose. Taking care of Sensei gave her a reason to get on her feet and a reason to care about life in general. It should have been the other way around. It should be sensei taking care of her and teaching her to find reasons to live outside of their household. But that never happened and Ami lashed her entire reason for living to Sensei.

Spoiler

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And then we get the romantic feelings. The mysterious Sensei love virus that infects everyone. After saving Sensei, building him back up, and years of fulfilling the traditional duties of a house wife, you can't blame Ami for feeling somewhat entitled to that role. It's not just what she thinks of as her future, it's her life as she knows it.

The taboo nature of that relationship immediately pits Ami versus the world. She knows her fantasy is wrong and her only recourse is to dismiss the viewpoint of everyone else. Build her own definition of right. Anyone who goes against that is an obstacle. And this is before the other girls are even proper rivals.

Which of course is what happens. Everyone wants sensei and that jeopardizes her future, her present, and her reason for living. She's desperate to fend them off and that makes her do crazy things. She's aware she seems insane which puts her in this awkward spot between "I need to ease up and not suffocate Sensei" and "the world already doesn't accept/understand me. I need to fight against that."

Spoiler

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From all directions people are encroaching on her life while dismissing her as immoral and delusional. Under these circumstances you would expect a person to break. In many ways she already has. However, Ami is conniving and smart. I believe it is that wit that gives her a fighting chance and the confidence to keep going.

In spite of all of this, when Ami has the freedom to lower her defense and be herself, she's a really kind and compassionate person. You see that a lot towards the beginning of the game. Those opportunities present themselves less and less as the story progresses.

Lastly, I want to take a moment to recognize her talent for poetry. My life With You is one of my favorite scenes. I'm no poet, nor am I sensei but I felt so proud of her after that event. The poem was genuinely good and seeing how nervous she was as she poured her heart into it was sweet.

Spoiler

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I know none of this is probably revelatory. I just like gushing. Thanks for reading.

 

[matt_riochka]

seeing the amount of stuff i missed or didn't understand after reading some messages and theories here makes me realise that even though i spent 260 hours to go through the entire game up to v0.42, i may as well re-read the entirety of it because there's just so much hidden stuff

or i'm just dumb and it's a me issue (also thanks for all the passionate users here y'all are great)

 

[fasoaga]

Not sure if joking, but let's go down that rabbit hole.

The Persona series has been cited by Selebus as an influence on the game. For anyone who was unaware, the modern Persona games feature high school students in their second year going through some form of rite of passage into adulthood. They use the Tarot Arcana to symbolize the stages of passage from the innocence of youth (The Fool) to the maturity of adulthood, and each of the people the The Fool meets on his journey symbolizes a step on that passage. There are usually 20 Arcana in the initial version of the game, though the enhanced release may add some additional Arcana. But 20 Arcana for 20 Main Girls may be relevant.

Persona 3 is a game about accepting your own mortality. Persona 4 is a story about overcoming your insecurities. Persona 5 is a game about moving past your personal trauma -- which seems particularly appropriate for LiL.

The game takes place in both the "normal" and "shadow" world, though the nature of the shadow world varies by game. In 3, the shadow world is a localized distortion centered around a single location that only exists in a period of time that most cannot percieve (the 25th hour), in 4, it is a "TV Realm" literally entered by passing through a TV screen (note: thsi game came out before TVs got as large as they are today, and finding a TV large enough to fit a person through was still a bit of a challenge), and in 5 the shadow world is the world of cognition-- or Perception, but as it exists in a collective sense.

When a character is in the shadow world, they might awaken a Persona -- a spiritual being (drawn from religion or literature, usually) who grants them incredible power. at this moment, their outfit changes to reflect their awakened state. Ayane is wearing the costume of Ann Takamaki, a model who is being sexually harassed by a teacher at her school. Her refusal of his advances causes the teacher to rape her best friend, who then tries to kill herself by jumping off the roof of the school. Ann's arc is driven by her sense of guilt towards what happens to her friend, her dealing with rumors (spread by the teacher) that she was sleeping with said teacher, and a desire to not be seen as just a model anymore.

A whole lot of that is really, REALLY on the nose.

Ann is the Lover Arcana, which seems appropriate for Ayane as well.

Other characters in the game include:
Futaba Sakura, a redheaded Otaku recluse who blames herself for her mother's death (Molly?). She is the Hermit Arcana, which is less appropriate for Molly (Yumi would be a better candidate)

Makoto Niijima, a studious Student Council President who blames herself for not seeing what was happening at her school sooner. Her Arcana is Priestess, which doesn't feel like a good fit for our Makoto (Noriko is a better fit), but the name and role overlapping likely isn't coincidence.

Haru Nokumura, an heiress who is slated to be married to the son of a company executive who is also an abusive prick, who feels abandoned by her father (Touka). Her Arcana is Empress, which also fits Touka (one of the first things listed on the Megami Tensei wiki for Empress is that it's associated with mothers, and we know how Akira feels about Touka)

Kinda just punching the nose over and over again, honestly.

I've known that Sel has cited Persona as an influence for some time, but I hadn't actually thought that much about LiL in terms of Persona or the Arcana.

This made me want to play persona games, but 100+ hours per game still scares me.

 

[aramaug]

Someone raised the point of Sekai's surname a while back, and what if it's Shiawase?

Spoiler: Wake me up when it's over

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I mean, there is the old theory about white rabbits being associated with Sekai. Or rather, Sekai Shiawase. If that was the case, it would make Sekai a part of the simulation characters (characters with alliterative names).

aramaug pointed out that the Shiawase group was also a part of the Pareidolia Mall sequence, but that is the event I hate the most in this game, so I'm not going back just for that.

Edit: Shiawase can literally mean happiness, and given that Sekai experienced trauma in her home enough to despise her surname, it would make sense that her surname meant happiness. She dropped it and chose instead the title "the girl who cannot breathe" in opposition to the forced veneer of happiness thrust upon her (that made her unable to breathe).

It would also fit with her pursuit of trying everything to be happy and never achieving it before Akira, it would literally be in her name.

At the very least the Shiawase group seems to be in charge of the simulation, after all, it fits that the "Happiness group" would have the slogan "remember to smile".

Here's an idle thought on the subject of potential Sekai surnames: how about Tsukioka? As in, she would have been the sister of Tomonori.

• I think it was Tsukasa who implied that Tomonori was an only child, but how likely is it that his parents wouldn't have had a failsafe like Tsukasa is for Touka? Maybe her existence was just hidden from the kids since she was estranged from the family.
• Whether she was the heir or the failsafe (not sure on respective ages), Sekai would absolutely rebel against the rigid upbringing and expectations of continuing family tradition that the Tsukiokas emphasize.
• She doesn't look like Touka/Tsukasa, but they get their looks from Tsubasa so for all we know Tomonori could be a redhead.
• The Tsukioka manor sakura tree clearly has some connection to Sekai, since she appears with it in Mother's Milk and "Ami" is in front of it in Rain King.
  Spoiler

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• Sensei sees Touka as Sekai, probably because they're both mother figures that he wants to fuck, but maybe there's a deeper connection.
  Spoiler

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• Sekai's name starts with the letter T, which definitely stands for something other than Teacher.

If anything, I'd think that Shiawase is a certain girl equivalent to Himawari solely because of the available parallel I can draw between Shiawase Group and Himawari Co, the two mysterious LLCs both featured in the Pareidolia Mall, and the fact that neither Shiawase or Himawari sounds like a name for an individual.

You know, Shiori Shiawase has a nice ring to it.

 

[Moonflare]

Here's an idle thought on the subject of potential Sekai surnames: how about Tsukioka? As in, she would have been the sister of Tomonori.

• I think it was Tsukasa who implied that Tomonori was an only child, but how likely is it that his parents wouldn't have had a failsafe like Tsukasa is for Touka? Maybe her existence was just hidden from the kids since she was estranged from the family.
• Whether she was the heir or the failsafe (not sure on respective ages), Sekai would absolutely rebel against the rigid upbringing and expectations of continuing family tradition that the Tsukiokas emphasize.
• She doesn't look like Touka/Tsukasa, but they get their looks from Tsubasa so for all we know Tomonori could be a redhead.
• The Tsukioka manor sakura tree clearly has some connection to Sekai, since she appears with it in Mother's Milk and "Ami" is in front of it in Rain King.
  Spoiler

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• Sensei sees Touka as Sekai, probably because they're both mother figures that he wants to fuck, but maybe there's a deeper connection.
  Spoiler

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• Sekai's name starts with the letter T, which definitely stands for something other than Teacher.

You know, Shiori Shiawase has a nice ring to it.

I like that theory a lot. It explains the tree, the running from her family, why Sekai would have been buried in the mansion (or maybe Sekai's mother? can't quite recall the ghost story), her letter T (with teacher being a smokescreen), her name not being alliterative as she's not a part of the simulation, and plus, Akira would be soon having sex with his niece again (Touka)

Would Touka's father be unaware of the Arakawas though? Even if she's distanced from her family (or rather because of it) they'd still keep tabs on her and, most importantly, on her daughter. Even if they assume Ami is Nozomu's daughter, she'd still be a Tsukioka in blood. It would be inconceivable that Akira would have to rescue Ami from adoption from a random family if she's a Tsukioka, as they'd adopt her instead. And if they tried, Akira/Ami would remember it.

The one issue with this theory is that grandma's house has to default to being Saki instead of Sekai's mom. And why would Ami refer to it being "grandma's house" to Akira if he lived there? Akira was surely not living alone in the old district when Ami was born, Saki would have been there (Edit: actually, where was Saki as Nozomu died? she must have been dead already, otherwise she'd adopt Ami. And if she died so early in Ami's life, who's the grandma she speaks of? Interesting, didn't think about that).

Tsukioka Sekai and Shiawase Shiori seems like an elegant theory regardless. Good job.

Edit: I also think there's a possibility that Tsubasa's husband was the spare, and Sekai was the older sister.
Edit2: We need some speculation on the timeline of Saki's death, who was living with Akira where and to what point in the timeline. Potentially, this might reveal a bizarre family dynamic in which Nozomu and Sekai were acting as Akira's parents during his late teenage years.

 

[JelF547]

Here's an idle thought on the subject of potential Sekai surnames: how about Tsukioka? As in, she would have been the sister of Tomonori.

• I think it was Tsukasa who implied that Tomonori was an only child, but how likely is it that his parents wouldn't have had a failsafe like Tsukasa is for Touka? Maybe her existence was just hidden from the kids since she was estranged from the family.
• Whether she was the heir or the failsafe (not sure on respective ages), Sekai would absolutely rebel against the rigid upbringing and expectations of continuing family tradition that the Tsukiokas emphasize.
• She doesn't look like Touka/Tsukasa, but they get their looks from Tsubasa so for all we know Tomonori could be a redhead.
• The Tsukioka manor sakura tree clearly has some connection to Sekai, since she appears with it in Mother's Milk and "Ami" is in front of it in Rain King.
  Spoiler

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• Sensei sees Touka as Sekai, probably because they're both mother figures that he wants to fuck, but maybe there's a deeper connection.
  Spoiler

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• Sekai's name starts with the letter T, which definitely stands for something other than Teacher.

You know, Shiori Shiawase has a nice ring to it.

This is a good one. Despite being a bit of uncalled, it actually makes Tsukioas responsible to most of the stuff, which is belivable enough.

Also, it would mean that Tsukiokas already have a child from Arakawas, which allows interesting implications

PS Good bye "all girls in the class are Akira's relatives" and welcome "all girls in the class are Ami's relatives" theory

 

[Moonflare]

seeing the amount of stuff i missed or didn't understand after reading some messages and theories here makes me realise that even though i spent 260 hours to go through the entire game up to v0.42, i may as well re-read the entirety of it because there's just so much hidden stuff

or i'm just dumb and it's a me issue (also thanks for all the passionate users here y'all are great)

First of all, welcome to being active in the thread. Your first replay is where it really starts. At times it seems like a completely different game from the amount of stuff you start paying attention to and connections you couldn't make before.

I skipped most of Chika's events and hated Yasu's "nonsense" during my first time. I barely knew who Chinami was as well: "why the hell is there a kid (with a dog mask) in this porn game? slip skip". And now I can quote random obscure lore fragments by heart Perhaps I should start wearing denim.

 

[barglenarglezous]

This made me want to play persona games, but 100+ hours per game still scares me.

If you like turn-based JRPGs, the three modern Persona games are all very, VERY good turn-based JRPGs, and the length won't feel like an issue in real time.

If you don't like turn-based JRPGs, the length will ABSOLUTELY be an issue.

I came of age on NES JRPGs, and enjoyed Persona 5 so much I immediately started a second run, and wound up clocking 250 hours on it before moving on to another game.

 

[ErisT]

If you like turn-based JRPGs, the three modern Persona games are all very, VERY good turn-based JRPGs, and the length won't feel like an issue in real time.

If you don't like turn-based JRPGs, the length will ABSOLUTELY be an issue.

I came of age on NES JRPGs, and enjoyed Persona 5 so much I immediately started a second run, and wound up clocking 250 hours on it before moving on to another game.

Are you excited for Metaphor? Or not so much because of change in setting?

 

[barglenarglezous]

Are you excited for Metaphor? Or not so much because of change in setting?

It looks interesting, but I'll probably wait to see how early adopters like it before buying. Atlus is usually spot on with their games, but when they miss, they tend to miss HARD.

 

[Muk_king]

I like that there are actual things to find through inspection and theory. It makes a replay much more interesting. Like rewatching Blade Runner and seeing all the subtle hints for what they are.

The Tsukioka connection idea is pretty neat. Tsubasa probably doesn't know in that case, since she hasn't interacted with or asked about Ami as far as I recall.

 

[Bingoogus]

or i'm just dumb and it's a me issue (also thanks for all the passionate users here y'all are great)

For every theorycrafter there are 20 of us dunces, you're in good company friend. Feel free to join us over at the dunce table.

 

[ccxvidonaferens]

For every theorycrafter there are 20 of us dunces, you're in good company friend. Feel free to join us over at the dunce table.

Who do I see about reserving a seat at the dunces table?

 

[Antosha]

Not sure if joking, but let's go down that rabbit hole.

The Persona series has been cited by Selebus as an influence on the game. For anyone who was unaware, the modern Persona games feature high school students in their second year going through some form of rite of passage into adulthood. They use the Tarot Arcana to symbolize the stages of passage from the innocence of youth (The Fool) to the maturity of adulthood, and each of the people the The Fool meets on his journey symbolizes a step on that passage. There are usually 20 Arcana in the initial version of the game, though the enhanced release may add some additional Arcana. But 20 Arcana for 20 Main Girls may be relevant.

Persona 3 is a game about accepting your own mortality. Persona 4 is a story about overcoming your insecurities. Persona 5 is a game about moving past your personal trauma -- which seems particularly appropriate for LiL.

The game takes place in both the "normal" and "shadow" world, though the nature of the shadow world varies by game. In 3, the shadow world is a localized distortion centered around a single location that only exists in a period of time that most cannot percieve (the 25th hour), in 4, it is a "TV Realm" literally entered by passing through a TV screen (note: thsi game came out before TVs got as large as they are today, and finding a TV large enough to fit a person through was still a bit of a challenge), and in 5 the shadow world is the world of cognition-- or Perception, but as it exists in a collective sense.

When a character is in the shadow world, they might awaken a Persona -- a spiritual being (drawn from religion or literature, usually) who grants them incredible power. at this moment, their outfit changes to reflect their awakened state. Ayane is wearing the costume of Ann Takamaki, a model who is being sexually harassed by a teacher at her school. Her refusal of his advances causes the teacher to rape her best friend, who then tries to kill herself by jumping off the roof of the school. Ann's arc is driven by her sense of guilt towards what happens to her friend, her dealing with rumors (spread by the teacher) that she was sleeping with said teacher, and a desire to not be seen as just a model anymore.

A whole lot of that is really, REALLY on the nose.

Ann is the Lover Arcana, which seems appropriate for Ayane as well.

Other characters in the game include:
Futaba Sakura, a redheaded Otaku recluse who blames herself for her mother's death (Molly?). She is the Hermit Arcana, which is less appropriate for Molly (Yumi would be a better candidate)

Makoto Niijima, a studious Student Council President who blames herself for not seeing what was happening at her school sooner. Her Arcana is Priestess, which doesn't feel like a good fit for our Makoto (Noriko is a better fit), but the name and role overlapping likely isn't coincidence.

Haru Nokumura, an heiress who is slated to be married to the son of a company executive who is also an abusive prick, who feels abandoned by her father (Touka). Her Arcana is Empress, which also fits Touka (one of the first things listed on the Megami Tensei wiki for Empress is that it's associated with mothers, and we know how Akira feels about Touka)

Kinda just punching the nose over and over again, honestly.

I've known that Sel has cited Persona as an influence for some time, but I hadn't actually thought that much about LiL in terms of Persona or the Arcana.

Hmmm.

Don’t know the games, but know a bit about the tarot.

These kind of make sense, don’t they?

• Yasu=High Priestess
• Touka=Empress
• Ayane=Lovers (or would that be Ami?)
• Maya=the Magician—or maybe the Hanged Man?
• Tsuneyo=Strength
• Nodoko=the Hermit, maybe? (“The Truth Seeker”)
• Etc., etc.

So many possibilities. Who is Justice, or the Blasted Tower? Who is the Fool, or Death?


And who is the World, I wonder?




ETA: Oh, and there are traditionally 21 cards in the major arcana—plus the Fool. So 20 students, 1 Imani… and Akira is the Fool, definitely. lol

 

[Bingoogus]

Who do I see about reserving a seat at the dunces table?

Me of course.

I am the king of the dunce table. Luckily there are infinitely many seats here, all dunces are welcome.

 

[Moonflare]

For every theorycrafter there are 20 of us dunces, you're in good company friend. Feel free to join us over at the dunce table.

An accurate representation of the amount of people in each:

Spoiler: A few people that can't stop talking

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Spoiler: An actual nation that welcomes all

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[Comiies]

I can finally use my sacred knowledge and the endless time ive wasted on the SMT series.

So lets start connecting arcana with the girls until the update drops.
(Disclaimer:I will only talk about the upright potisions of each major arcana unless stated otherwise)

Yasu is the High Priestess arcana.The high priestess arcana symbolizes intuition,sacred knowledge and the sub-councious mind.*
Touka is the empress.The empress symbolizes femininity beauty and nurture.
Ayane is the Lovers.The lovers symbolize love harmony and the importance of relationships
Maya is the hermit.The hermit symbolizes introspection and being alone
Tsuneyo is the strength.The strength symbolizes compassion justice and persuation
Nodoka is the devil.The devil symbolizes the shadow self addiction and sexuality(One could argue about this)
Chika and Miku are the sun.The sun symbolizes positivity vitality and warmth(One can especially argue about this)
Yumi is the reversed hermit.Unlike maya the reversed hermit symbolizes isolation and loneliness
Sana is the same as yumi
Makoto suprise suprise is Justice.As its name implies it symbolizes justice fairness and the law(A fan fact is that its reversed state symbolizes dishonesty and LACK of accountability.Quite fitting)
Futaba is the same as ayane
Rin is the reversed devil.The reversed devil symbolizes the exploartion of dark thoughs and detachement
Ami is the reversed lovers.The reversed lovers symbolize the missalingment of values and disarmony(Or she could be the reversed hierophant which symbolizes self interest and challenged the status quo)
Moly is also the sun
Uta funnily enough is the reversed world.It fits her suprinsingly well tbh.The reversed world symbolizes the pursuit of personal closure,emotional or otherwise and taking shortcuts to achieve your goal.
Io is the reversed star.It symbolises despair and disconnection from the world
Finally to end things of Noriko is the reversed strength which symbolises inner strength self-doubt and pure raw emotion
Kirin is the devil and Otoha is revered justice.

Now that the girls are out of the way lets talk about our "protagonist".You see i have a few ideas about Akira and i will let you guys decide.

The first one is the reversed Wheel of fortune.It symbolizes bad luck and resistance to change.
The second is the reversed justice
But my personal favourites are the reversed Moon,which symbolizes inner confusion and resistance to change and the reversed star.

PS:I havent touched anything SMT related for some years now so my tarot knowledge may be a bit spotty.Feel free to knockyourselves out until the update comes though.

 

[DeanNoriko]

An accurate representation of the amount of people in each:

Spoiler: A few people that can't stop talking

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Spoiler: An actual nation that welcomes all

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Come to think of it, when reading a really interesting theory or the discussion of such a theory, I feel like during the scenes with the potted plants discussing what's happening and giving a few insights here and there. Like it's a potpodcast or TV show where experts are sharing their opinions and thoughts for the viewers (i.e. us dunces). And occasionally making fun of each other.
I would include a screen shot of one of those scenes (e.g. the one at the beach when Touka brought the restaurant over via helicopter) but alas I am too lazy, sorry

I skipped most of Chika's events and hated Yasu's "nonsense" during my first time. I barely knew who Chinami was as well: "why the hell is there a kid (with a dog mask) in this porn game? slip skip". And now I can quote random obscure lore fragments by heart Perhaps I should start wearing denim.

I have yet to replay the game, I might do so during the next bigger break when Sel is having his vacation period.
By the time Chinami was in the game with the dog mask or especially Yasu, I was already too engrossed in the story and did pay attention, but yeah, originally I went in pretty much blind and got a few "WTF is happening, did I download a virus" moments early on when shit started to hit the fan unexpectedly. Much of which I simply don't remember anymore.
I can totally see how replaying now would bring out a lot more nuanced details that got lost the first time around, in addiiton to just help get a better picture of the whole storyline, knowing more context.
And I guess it would have to be a green route playthrough, since I missed a substantial amount of content by deciding to be a good uncle, plus a few other decisions here and there.

So many possibilities. Who is Justice, or the Blasted Tower? Who is the Fool, or Death?

I only played Persona 4 but the whole tarot thing makes a lot of sense, actually, especially with Sel confirming he used the games as inspiration.
I would be personally disappointed though if Akira didn't end up being The Fool, also known as The Dreamer. Since he is literally both, a fucking idiot and slipping drifting in and out of consciousness and entering different planes of existence.

 

[Fire Lord Zuko]

The Tarot Card concept was tackled in the LiL Discord awhile back actually. Some really cool fanart spawned as a result of it:

Spoiler: LiL Tarot Card Art

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