Java Lilith's Throne [v0.4.10.7 Hotfix] [Innoxia]

[IvoryOwl]

Considering that the moderator actions primarily occurred whenever I posted screenshots of the Discord, I can't help but realize you're talking specifically about me and/or Siannash. You're also repeating what I've already said. Yes, this is probably our last stronghold. Yes, there are people on the Discord intentionally sowing seeds of derailment here. They did on the blog and I warned all you even then just before the comments got nuked and well before then sometime last year when a mass of people decided I was the sole antagonist. I don't think it's fair to place the entire responsibly upon us, when you just acknowledged that there are forces undermining us to sabotage us. Pick one and only one. And, how do you know Innoxia themselves are not behind most of this? How do you know this is not what Innoxia would want in the first place? Innoxia made the choice to turn off the comments. That meant she does not care to hear from anyone not filtered through the Discord. I don't know why so many of you refuse to fault Innoxia for what Innoxia does.

Let me ask you this, though: What do you propose we do under a circumstance of arbitrary rule enforcement, where correcting misinformation in itself is now deemed a violation? Do you suggest that I simply allow the lies to be as they are, without contest? If you do, I won't argue. I'll allow things to play out exactly as they will and watch as someone else inevitably takes my place (and given history, they'll likely be less reasonable than I am).

Actually, when I made that post, I wasn't thinking of anyone in particular, least of all you. This thread has always had its share of critics but, lately, I feel like the entire thing has shifted disproportionally. Sometimes, it's like I can almost feel the "emotion" behind the discussion that is being had, even if it's just text (or maybe I'm just crazy.) And right now, I feel like the entire nature of the thread has shifted to one of almost constant tension and resentment. We are generating a lot of "heat".

I say this because I'm worried about the thread getting shut down and I don't want that to happen. This is where people share their compiled versions; it saves others the time and hassle of doing it themselves, especially now that public versions are getting further spaced out. Up until now, I considered this thread to be the flip side of the coin to Discord; a location where we could meet and discuss, but without worry of being tagged for having a negative opinion. It wasn't a problem until all the people from the blog moved here.

Now, to make matters worse, we know the one who has been moderating this thread, is also a mod on Discord. I don't know if they are trying to be as impartial as they can but I feel like, no matter what, people are going to resent having one of them here, sifting through our conversations, with the power to delete entire discussions whenever they feel like, lock the thread, or issuing bans. Whether justified or not.

Therefore, I suggest having a corner just for ourselves. I don't care if we get labeled as the "hate box", if Discord can have their corner, then so can we. We can monitor ourselves if things get out of hand, just not one of them. Without any better ideas, I'm all in for creating a SubReddit for ourselves.

It'll be the exact same cycle of nonstop complaining about the same issues with no solutions and no changes made. It's been this way for years, because you're too afraid to rock the boat. So, what do we do, Ivory? What would you do?

I'll be honest with you. It's not that I'm afraid of rocking the boat, it's simply that I'm too lazy and not invested enough to do anything other than venting my frustrations and leaving it at that. That and the fact I know I'm powerless to change anything; I can't force Inno to do things my way and I'm not the kind of person to drop a DDoS attack as a way to make a point. All the factors going for this game point to a slow, attritive change; there's no real alternative in the market and Inno is getting plenty of money as is, even with all the issues and complains. One could even argue that the project was doomed from the start, and that it's only a matter of time before it implodes on itself.

I can see what is wrong and point it out, but if the person with power isn't inclined to change, I'm not going to be the one to do it for them. I used to be optimistic and hopeful about this game, but years of disappointment have filed down a lot of the interest I had in LT. If this game were to drop dead tomorrow, I wouldn't be surprised nor affected by it. I want the best but I'm also fully expecting the worst.

I suspect that, at this point, the best way for change to occur would be for someone with experience and a few interested parties to make a fork on GitHub and build (or re-build) the game themselves. Or, to avoid clashes, make another game in the same vein as LT, but with better foundations and development choices. It's the only thing I can think of right now.

(I wrote inside a quote because long post is long and it saves space.)

 

[alex2011]

bold of you to use one tag on both f95 and discord. Mad respects.

In more "realistic" news, it seems we are headed for a 2-3 week maximum on fields content.
View attachment 1051359

Just wanted to add, this is possibly one of the best forums I've had the pleasure to be a part of. The dunking on Inno, the discussions on game mechanics and other things. I love you guys. Drink water and stay hydrated.

I'm gonna say it now, that 2-3 weeks isn't going to happen and there is a very good chance 0.4 is the same under any and all time frames. Inno has lost too much focus and can't seem to reliably get back to the important part of development.

Just add a 0 on any time estimate and call it roughly enough accurate.

On actual game mechanics, anyone got a full flowchart on the changes Lyssieth makes when you get demonified based on your own choices? I know there's a few branches.

More like add three 0s, o0.4 has been the target for over a year and that is unlikely to get any better. If anything, it will go from over a year to over four not including any of the multiple that have already passed except the time already wasted that should have gone to 0.4 already.

Definitely not fixed.

Latest release absolutely still has at least one memory leak. The memory leak while not interacting with the game seems to depend on what you were doing when inactivity started. If you just load a save and walk away, it doesn't happen. There also appears to be an issue where the game stops garbage collection or something along those lines. Just advancing time in the right circumstances will exponentially increase memory usage even when no other interaction is happening. I'm too lazy to actually watch memory dumps to watch it, but my rough guess is that the slave logging is clogging everything up by not properly culling the data past the one week it displays.

The game *definitely* has memory usage issues with normal use. The memory issues we're talking about are not all memory leaks. Many of the issues are design issues. These issues affect both builds of the game. The more slaves you allow to interact, some of the data storage is increased exponentially. And there's a bunch of cases like that.

You really don't seem to understand that "it works for me" does not mean there's not an issue. Claiming there's no issue because "it works for me" just makes it really obvious that we shouldn't be listening to you for a technical breakdown. And you really don't seem to know which performance issues people are actually talking about.

Thanks for the heads up, I was hoping you would chime in on that. I'll keep my head count low, then.

I'm in the majority by being in favor of the game having a non-zero chance of ever being finished. Cutting the open overworld would definitely upset a lot of people, but in case you haven't noticed, development of said overworld proceeding at a snail's pace is already doing that. You need to choose whether you want to have your cake or eat it. If you choose to insist on both an open overworld and the game being anywhere near finished within the next two decades, you're just setting yourself up for disappointment.


Really? Last time I checked the vast majority of Dominion's tiles were empty aside from interchangeable random NPCs. You have a very strange definition of crowded.


No, you have this completely backwards. This technical issue has to be fixed so that the game doesn't slow down and crash.


Except that due to the text-based nature of this game, these are just fast travel, not actual gameplay mechanics.
Teleport does work across maps, btw.


Right, right. So you want the game to have a big open overworld, and you want content for that overworld delivered quickly, and you want it procedurally generated, and you want someone else to pick up the game and get it done if and when the dev abandons it? That's quite a lot of stuff you want. And you honestly think any of it has some kind of a realistic chance of happening...?

No you are not, you don't support the open world concept that is a core element of this game, your previous comments suggest that much. The majority does or it would already be gone.

Really? Last time I checked the vast majority of Dominion's tiles were empty aside from interchangeable random NPCs. You have a very strange definition of crowded.

The vast majority being streets and alleys that HAVE to be empty with the exception of procedurally generated random encounters that don't stay without the player specifically choosing an option that makes them.

No, you have this completely backwards. This technical issue has to be fixed so that the game doesn't slow down and crash.

No, I do not. What you want is for every tile to have some sort of dedicated content based on what you've said in the past, that is NEVER going to happen. There HAVE to be empty tiles or A) the game will still reach a limit that cannot be eliminated entirely, only extended and B) you literally won't be able to walk two steps without interacting with some sort of content. Getting stopped every two seconds in the alleys by random encounters is already annoying as it is.

Dominion is currently like a Japanese subway in rush hour right now, which for context get so crowded that the generated body heat can be enough to make people faint because they cram those things so full that there is literally no room to do anything. You are literally crammed into every little space in those things. That's the way Dominion is now.

That is a problem that is only better than the problem with the NPC limit causing crashes. The content needs to be spread out to reduce this overcrowding and no more new content should be placed inside Dominion, new content should instead be geared toward the fields, where there currently is literally none.

More content means more NPCs, more NPCs means reaching the NPC limit that crashes the game.

Except that due to the text-based nature of this game, these are just fast travel, not actual gameplay mechanics.
Teleport does work across maps, btw.

As they are supposed to be, kind of like how the teleporting works in Skyrim.

Right, right. So you want the game to have a big open overworld, and you want content for that overworld delivered quickly, and you want it procedurally generated, and you want someone else to pick up the game and get it done if and when the dev abandons it? That's quite a lot of stuff you want. And you honestly think any of it has some kind of a realistic chance of happening...?

No, INNO wants it to be a big open world, that's the whole point of creating 9 different zones with their own settlements and native races. That's literally what we have been told would be added since the first day.

I don't care if it gets delivered quickly, I know how long it can take for smaller implementations to happen through my own experience. The only thing I care about in terms of development pace is that it is actually being worked on, not that Inno says they are working on it, that they have work actually getting done that can be shown if someone were to ask for proof.

Procedural generation is not necessary, but it would mean less work as then one block of code could apply to the entire area instead of having dedicated code for every single tile to trigger dedicated content. It would mean things could happen anywhere in that area at any time without all the hassle of writing out every single thing for every single tile.

I don't care if someone else picks up the game, but it would be best for it to be abandoned by Inno and for someone else to pick it up who has the experience and is willing to put together a proper team of developers like Inno should have done from the start.

If nobody else picks it up, so be it, it dies, though I myself am considering the possibility of picking it up should Inno abandon the game and I will continue exactly as Inno planned it originally minus the working alone part. I would put together a team from among the player base first thing as soon as I get a hold of the code.

A LOT of what you think I want is actually what has been officially stated by Inno themself and everything that isn't something Inno actually outright said is something I couldn't care less about, but that would help the game.

This is an absolute lie. If you've been around this community for at least two years, that's long enough to know that Innoxia literally posted these racist insults on their BLOG, in the comments, with the actual account that created the blog, in their responses to the criticisms about how Innoxia did their job as a dev. Majority of the rebuttals were basically an arrogant comparison of how much better Innoxia thought they were than us, by the measurement that they made more money than we all supposedly did. But, Innoxia later removed all evidence that these conversations ever happened, then restricted anonymous posting for a length of time (which wouldn't have later prevented a person from pretending to be Innoxia, if that was what was actually happening). Posters such as Ivory and I have been around long enough to know you're lying; I was one of the posters on the blog who also subsequently and continuously had their posts removed by Innoxia after that incident.

But, of course, because the evidence was burned and deleted, you could predictably sit there and hereafter do the routine of "Where's your proof, sir?" The adequate response being that I'd show it, if Innoxia didn't burn it all away. It's my word against yours, but I think I've proven my credibility by now after showing -- twice -- that I'm willing to seek out and display evidence to back my own claims when I'm allowed to do so. Combine that with the authoritarian need to destroy the evidence I do post, my credibility has been further cemented. I'll say thanks for that.

Wow, just wow, that's seriously low.

thinking about it now inno very well may have stopped developing the game altogether at this point considering how nyans update came out and how all the new races added were from the community and how she has a few of her inner circle working on code even the "fix" for the memory usage had a mod that basically did the same thing in the mod section of the discord which the usual group mocked

It is a very strong possibility, now if they would just announce dropping the game, that would be a good point to start putting together people who want to revive it.

Granted this has been ongoing for a while now, most additions have originated from GitHub for several months now with most of Inno's work, what little there is, being on the reworks.

I have been glazing over the discussions on this thread for a while now and I'm starting to think it was a terrible idea to turn off the comment section on the blog. I don't disagree with most of the criticism but up until recently, the worst of the brunt was mostly contained to that website. Now the most vocal have decided to move here.

It has only been a few weeks since it happened and a moderator already had to intervene a few times... which I don't remember happening since this thread was opened. I worry that, one day, one of said moderators is going to say "enough" and just close the entire thing for good, on the basis of our behavior and the fact we keep repeating the same mistakes, regardless of the warnings.

I wouldn't be surprised if someone on Discord is looking at the commotion we are making and laughing, rubbing their hands Sith-Lord like, knowing we are ultimately going to screw ourselves for it. Heck, maybe that's what some of them are hoping for. This is arguably the last stronghold we have to discuss this game more freely and its fate depends entirely on us.

Considering that the moderator actions primarily occurred whenever I posted screenshots of the Discord, I can't help but realize you're talking specifically about me and/or Siannash. You're also repeating what I've already said. Yes, this is probably our last stronghold. Yes, there are people on the Discord intentionally sowing seeds of derailment here. They did on the blog and I warned all you even then just before the comments got nuked and well before then sometime last year when a mass of people decided I was the sole antagonist. I don't think it's fair to place the entire responsibly upon us, when you just acknowledged that there are forces undermining us to sabotage us. Pick one and only one. And, how do you know Innoxia themselves are not behind most of this? How do you know this is not what Innoxia would want in the first place? Innoxia made the choice to turn off the comments. That meant she does not care to hear from anyone not filtered through the Discord. I don't know why so many of you refuse to fault Innoxia for what Innoxia does.

Let me ask you this, though: What do you propose we do under a circumstance of arbitrary rule enforcement, where correcting misinformation in itself is now deemed a violation? Do you suggest that I simply allow the lies to be as they are, without contest? If you do, I won't argue. I'll allow things to play out exactly as they will and watch as someone else inevitably takes my place (and given history, they'll likely be less reasonable than I am). Before now, that was Alex. Before Alex, that was Carlos and even you. It'll be the exact same cycle of nonstop complaining about the same issues with no solutions and no changes made. It's been this way for years, because you're too afraid to rock the boat. So, what do we do, Ivory? What would you do?

That's a fair assessment, Inno failed to get rid of us and instead we moved to a place they can't control without the possibility of losing their potential connections within the mod ranks to misuse of mod powers. A mod has intervened twice in the last few weeks, both against topics that technically fell within the topic of the thread as far as anyone here could tell. If they aren't, we need a reason why the topic is not when it is development related. Only once in that time has mod action been warranted, Slaneesh or whatever his name is was in violation of a different rule regarding the way he was wording things. He was far too aggressive.

They are indeed talking about us over there, including Inno themself. Someone posted a screenshot of a discussion about one of my comments that stated the inconvenient truth about Inno. Should the thread get closed, we can always move to another forum...again, but Inno will NEVER be rid of us as long as development continues to stall.

This is not our last stronghold, there are indeed other places, one of which is my source for the game where the people mod it to do things Inno won't.

How do you know this is not what Innoxia would want in the first place? Innoxia made the choice to turn off the comments. That meant she does not care to hear from anyone not filtered through the Discord. I don't know why so many of you refuse to fault Innoxia for what Innoxia does.

Another fair assessment, I dare say you hit the nail on the head. Inno is ultimately at fault for this as well through actions taken against our original place of commentary.

What do you propose we do under a circumstance of arbitrary rule enforcement, where correcting misinformation in itself is now deemed a violation?

Screenshot any comment you make that you are certain doesn't violate the rules and you also think will be struck with mod action, report this to the staff along with the screenshots as evidence. This is what I am now setting up for as well as keeping track of what mods come in when it happens. Currently, Fried is suspected in my own investigation due to the second purge, but it could be another.

If a mod is in violation of using their powers without justification, I'm not entirely sure, but I think they risk being removed as a mod entirely.

Do you suggest that I simply allow the lies to be as they are, without contest?

Absolutely not, do not, under any circumstances, let potential abuse of power go without issue.

So, what do we do, Ivory? What would you do?

We continue doing as we always have since the blog days, regardless of who opposes us. If our discussion remains on topic and non-aggressive, we are within the rules and any purge is out of line.

We know for a fact that the Discord watches this thread. Perhaps we all should agree on a meeting place in case it gets nuked.

Well, that's certainly not the worst possible place to go, but if anyone has any other ideas, they'd be welcome. Hell, if we agree on a place, we might just want to move there immediately and save our f95 accounts.

I've seen the screenshots, I already have a place in mind, but I will not openly state it so they can learn of it and implant supporters there as well.

This game will be dropped, sooner or later, but will be abandoned for sure, that's a fact

Very likely, either that or it will serve as a dead project only kept on life support for money milking, which is practically already the case.

I sincerely hate suggesting this, but we could try making a Subreddit?

That is possible and I would be glad to serve as an admin there to keep any purging of inconvenient truth away.

(I wrote inside a quote because long post is long and it saves space.)

This is what happens when you shut down the single biggest place for negative feedback, everyone moved here because the only other place known was secured against anything negative.

I will not fork the game, I hate the GitHub interface almost as much as Nyan, but I would be glad to take over in case of abandonment by Inno and I've been working on my own Java skills just in case.

The power to sift through and delete comments wouldn't be an issue with a subreddit, I would volunteer to moderate and I will NEVER silence opposition to Inno, though I will not silence support of Inno either. Only if someone on either side is in actual violation of the rules would I do anything. This I can promise, fair and equal treatment of all who use it regardless which side of the issue they are on.

 

[H3ntaiMaster69]

I have been glazing over the discussions on this thread for a while now and I'm starting to think it was a terrible idea to turn off the comment section on the blog. I don't disagree with most of the criticism but up until recently, the worst of the brunt was mostly contained to that website. Now the most vocal have decided to move here.

It has only been a few weeks since it happened and a moderator already had to intervene a few times... which I don't remember happening since this thread was opened. I worry that, one day, one of said moderators is going to say "enough" and just close the entire thing for good, on the basis of our behavior and the fact we keep repeating the same mistakes, regardless of the warnings.

I wouldn't be surprised if someone on Discord is looking at the commotion we are making and laughing, rubbing their hands Sith-Lord like, knowing we are ultimately going to screw ourselves for it. Heck, maybe that's what some of them are hoping for. This is arguably the last stronghold we have to discuss this game more freely and its fate depends entirely on us.

Where else are we supposed to go? 8kun?

 

[H3ntaiMaster69]

Well, that's certainly not the worst possible place to go, but if anyone has any other ideas, they'd be welcome. Hell, if we agree on a place, we might just want to move there immediately and save our f95 accounts.

At this point i think it would be at least something, better watch the moderators tho, we wouldn't want it to become the discord.

 

[alex2011]

Where else are we supposed to go? 8kun?

This is not the only forum with a thread for this game and there are places where we can create our own. Reddit is one such place that has been suggested, in fact, I tried, but I don't meet either the time or the karma requirement to create a subreddit.

At this point i think it would be at least something, better watch the moderators tho, we wouldn't want it to become the discord.

As long as the moderation is done by someone who is capable of full impartiality, it would be fine. In the case of our own subreddit, the moderators would be decided by the creator of the subreddit, not sure if there is a requirement to be chosen as well like there is to create a subreddit in the first place or if it only relies on admin selection.

 

[throbzombie]

Where else are we supposed to go? 8kun?

I don't think that's a bad idea, honestly.

I've seen the screenshots, I already have a place in mind, but I will not openly state it so they can learn of it and implant supporters there as well.

Could you DM it to us?

 

[H3ntaiMaster69]

This is not the only forum with a thread for this game and there are places where we can create our own. Reddit is one such place that has been suggested, in fact, I tried, but I don't meet either the time or the karma requirement to create a subreddit.


As long as the moderation is done by someone who is capable of full impartiality, it would be fine. In the case of our own subreddit, the moderators would be decided by the creator of the subreddit, not sure if there is a requirement to be chosen as well like there is to create a subreddit in the first place or if it only relies on admin selection.

" karma requirement"

 

[H3ntaiMaster69]

I don't think that's a bad idea, honestly.



Could you DM it to us?

Nah I've been there for a long time, they hate F95 and newf*gs

 

[H3ntaiMaster69]

8kun is a shithole, a very funny shithole, but still a shithole. I've been banned for a day once because i asked if there was a futanari mod for a game on /hgg/.

 

[SordidDreams]

No you are not, you don't support the open world concept that is a core element of this game, your previous comments suggest that much. The majority does or it would already be gone.

You have got to be joking. The open world concept is very far from being a core element of this game on account of the fact that it doesn't exist. Yet. And hopefully never will, because if Inno hasn't managed to finish the starting town in five years, it's going to take literal centuries to populate that overworld map with content.

There HAVE to be empty tiles or you literally won't be able to walk two steps without interacting with some sort of content.

You say that as if it were a bad thing.

As they are supposed to be, kind of like how the teleporting works in Skyrim.

You seem to have forgotten that fast travel is a band-aid, not a solution.

Procedural generation is not necessary, but it would mean less work as then one block of code could apply to the entire area instead of having dedicated code for every single tile to trigger dedicated content. It would mean things could happen anywhere in that area at any time without all the hassle of writing out every single thing for every single tile.

You seem to have completely missed the point of my Daggerfall comparison. Daggerfall is exactly what you describe, and as I said, there's a good reason they don't make games like that anymore. Unique, hand-crafted content will always be superior to generated content.

That's not to say generated content can't be used, but you're gleefully jumping straight into the biggest pitfall game devs fall into, which is using the same generated content too many times. The more iterations you allow the player to see, the more obvious the limitations of your generator will become. Procedural generation tends to create places and NPCs that are technically unique but for all practical purposes interchangeable, which gets boring very quickly. LT already suffers from this in Dominion, where about the third or fourth randomly encountered NPC ceases to be interesting as anything other than a loot piñata. If you think slathering the overworld map in that kind of 'content' is going to make the game good, you need to think again.

There are only two ways to do generated content well. One is to make your world generator so complex that it doesn't just randomize the hair color and dick size of NPCs but starts actually creating interesting stories. But as we've established, Inno is no Tarn Adams. The other is to use simple generated content sparingly. Terraria does this very well. Even its largest world is actually quite small and contains only a handful of each type of structure. It could easily generate a dozen different dungeons for you to explore, but there's only ever just one, because having any more than that would result in the player being disappointed by them being basically the same. That would not be a bad approach for LT to take, but then its world still needs to be small.

A LOT of what you think I want is actually what has been officially stated by Inno themself

If I wanted to be charitable, I'd say Inno needs to realize she bit off more than she can chew.

 

[bobomb]

Definitely not fixed.

Latest release absolutely still has at least one memory leak. The memory leak while not interacting with the game seems to depend on what you were doing when inactivity started. If you just load a save and walk away, it doesn't happen. There also appears to be an issue where the game stops garbage collection or something along those lines. Just advancing time in the right circumstances will exponentially increase memory usage even when no other interaction is happening. I'm too lazy to actually watch memory dumps to watch it, but my rough guess is that the slave logging is clogging everything up by not properly culling the data past the one week it displays.

The game *definitely* has memory usage issues with normal use. The memory issues we're talking about are not all memory leaks. Many of the issues are design issues. These issues affect both builds of the game. The more slaves you allow to interact, some of the data storage is increased exponentially. And there's a bunch of cases like that.

You really don't seem to understand that "it works for me" does not mean there's not an issue. Claiming there's no issue because "it works for me" just makes it really obvious that we shouldn't be listening to you for a technical breakdown. And you really don't seem to know which performance issues people are actually talking about.

What are the right circumstances?
I have all my slaves set to interact with each other to the point that every third tile I advance across in the house prompts me for a join or ignore. I have to join or ignore every fourth or fifth time I explore in dominion. I just advanced the game through 20 days and 4 arcane storms and memory never got over 2 gigs and released whenever it came close. So tell me who doesn't understand the memory leak situation? Did you even test? Maybe you should go through those memory dumps before you tell me I can't QA. Now I am not saying that 2 gigs of memory usage is great or anything but I have populated the shit out of my save as much as I can and I can't make it break like it used to. Maybe people shouldn't be listening to you if you don't have more than that to offer. If you can tell me a circumstance in which there is a memory leak and I can reproduce it I will bow to your arrogance and not break bad when you get all shitty with me.
Correction I got it to 2.5 through normal play before it started releasing down again.

 

[garand_m12]

Where do I need to tweak on the save file to add extra genital to the character

 

[alex2011]

I don't think that's a bad idea, honestly.



Could you DM it to us?

Sent, feel free to spread them among the people NOT trying to censor us.

" karma requirement"






View attachment 1052633

Reddit in a nutshell.

Nah I've been there for a long time, they hate F95 and newf*gs

Yes, yes they do, little do they know I lurk in the shadows there as well, commenting in ways that emulate them. Funny thing, they caught me once when I was helping out in the Free Cities thread, but they've never caught on to which among them was me.

8kun is a shithole, a very funny shithole, but still a shithole. I've been banned for a day once because i asked if there was a futanari mod for a game on /hgg/.

They don't like that kind of content, or furry, so this gets a bad rep over there as well. They also don't seem to know that there is a difference between humanoid animals, furries, and humans with animal ears and tails, monster girls as we call them here.

You have got to be joking. The open world concept is very far from being a core element of this game on account of the fact that it doesn't exist. Yet. And hopefully never will, because if Inno hasn't managed to finish the starting town in five years, it's going to take literal centuries to populate that overworld map with content.


You say that as if it were a bad thing.


You seem to have forgotten that fast travel is a band-aid, not a solution.


You seem to have completely missed the point of my Daggerfall comparison. Daggerfall is exactly what you describe, and as I said, there's a good reason they don't make games like that anymore. Unique, hand-crafted content will always be superior to generated content.

That's not to say generated content can't be used, but you're gleefully jumping straight into the biggest pitfall game devs fall into, which is using the same generated content too many times. The more iterations you allow the player to see, the more obvious the limitations of your generator will become. Procedural generation tends to create places and NPCs that are technically unique but for all practical purposes interchangeable, which gets boring very quickly. LT already suffers from this in Dominion, where about the third or fourth randomly encountered NPC ceases to be interesting as anything other than a loot piñata. If you think slathering the overworld map in that kind of 'content' is going to make the game good, you need to think again.

There are only two ways to do generated content well. One is to make your world generator so complex that it doesn't just randomize the hair color and dick size of NPCs but starts actually creating interesting stories. But as we've established, Inno is no Tarn Adams. The other is to use simple generated content sparingly. Terraria does this very well. Even its largest world is actually quite small and contains only a handful of each type of structure. It could easily generate a dozen different dungeons for you to explore, but there's only ever just one, because having any more than that would result in the player being disappointed by them being basically the same. That would not be a bad approach for LT to take, but then its world still needs to be small.


If I wanted to be charitable, I'd say Inno needs to realize she bit off more than she can chew.

Far from being a core element when the main story, literally the core of the game, is supposed to take us through all nine areas plus each of the settlements in each area? Yeah, no, it is most definitely a core element.

You say that as if it were a bad thing.

Because, as I have said repeatedly, It actually IS a bad thing. Not many people want to take two steps just to trigger an encounter EVERY time. There has to be a break in between in some instances, which is where traveling the street tiles of settlements and only having a chance, not a guarantee, to trigger content in the wild areas WITHOUT triggering content come in. The game just gets tedious if literally every step leads to more content.

You seem to have forgotten that fast travel is a band-aid, not a solution.

No, a band aid is adding a patch to fix a bug while putting the patch code into the game itself for the next release, fast travel is how ALL games handle super long distances when the player just wants to get to their destination without issue. You use traveling on foot when you actually want to trigger content in the wild.

You seem to have completely missed the point of my Daggerfall comparison. Daggerfall is exactly what you describe, and as I said, there's a good reason they don't make games like that anymore. Unique, hand-crafted content will always be superior to generated content.

No, I got your point, but it doesn't apply here. What I describe is how to properly manage an open world game. Putting content literally everywhere is not the way to do that.

which is using the same generated content too many times

It doesn't have to be the same, it can have a bunch of different scenarios it can pull from at any time. Random does not mean the same.

The more iterations you allow the player to see, the more obvious the limitations of your generator will become

And? Nothing is limitless, the player is eventually going to see those limits no matter what you do.

Procedural generation tends to create places and NPCs that are technically unique but for all practical purposes interchangeable, which gets boring very quickly

It only gets boring if they do the same thing every time, they wouldn't in this case. Not only would the races be procedurally generated as we already see in the game, but the situations that come up would be as well. Is the balde eage harpy that just popped up here to rape you? Mug you? Eat you? Did they lose a child somewhere that needs to be found and came to the nearest person, you, for help in their search? Maybe they came to get help against a group of bandits. There are so many different scenarios I can think of off the top of my head for the fields alone. I have at least 200 different ones already playing out in my head. That would most definitely be more than enough to satisfy the issue of boredom. It would take a LONG time to see them all just on the randomization alone.

LT already suffers from this in Dominion, where about the third or fourth randomly encountered NPC ceases to be interesting as anything other than a loot piñata.

No, what Dominion suffers from is having three times the content, at least, that it should.

If you think slathering the overworld map in that kind of 'content' is going to make the game good, you need to think again

That kind of content is already supposed to happen all over the game world. The only places you are supposed to be safe is on the streets of a settlement or just outside of one. I never said it would make the game good, what I said is it would put content in empty areas and stop the overflow happening inside Dominion.

At this point, nothing will make the game good, at best it is destined to be okay, but good is a stretch.

One is to make your world generator so complex that it doesn't just randomize the hair color and dick size of NPCs but starts actually creating interesting stories

Which is the way I was thinking of it when I gave that idea in the first place.

The other is to use simple generated content sparingly

Like what Dominion is currently NOT doing.

That would not be a bad approach for LT to take, but then its world still needs to be small

Too late, far too late, the game was stated to have 9 areas with their own settlements by the end of development, not just one. Going back on that now would be like shooting yourself in the foot with a nuclear missile.

If I wanted to be charitable, I'd say Inno needs to realize she bit off more than she can chew

As an experienced programmer, I can definitely agree here. This is a project for a large team with no inexperienced developers on it, not for a single person who chose it for their first project. Even AAA devs would take a project like this cautiously.

 

[bobomb]

Alex, To be clear about my reply to Tehlemon the game still has performance issues and it's not a bad idea to keep your head count low if you aren't running a SSD like me.

 

[alex2011]

Alex, To be clear about my reply to Tehlemon the game still has performance issues and it's not a bad idea to keep your head count low if you aren't running a SSD like me.

I am, actually. I just haven't moved it off to my secondary drive, the SSD doesn't really do that much for games like this.

 

[bobomb]

No shit? One of the discord mods is modding this discussion?
That does seem kinda like a conflict of interests with this being Yarh Har crowd. You guys know who? TBH I never had a problem with the real mods on the discord they seemed pretty even handed. it was the baby mods they set up (Leo in particular) that seemed unreasonable. Still probably not a bad idea to have your own corner. But please come visit this thread. I'd ask to come along but I'm pretty sure I seem suspect as I have no hate for Inno, just her discord.

 

[bobomb]

I am, actually. I just haven't moved it off to my secondary drive, the SSD doesn't really do that much for games like this.

Probably if your active drive is a HDD it wouldn't, but with my active drive being the SSD it did seem to improve performance quite a bit probably because the page file is on SSD. You should try moving your page file to the SSD it will improve the performance of your computer over all. If you haven't already.

 

[alex2011]

No shit? One of the discord mods is modding this discussion?
That does seem kinda like a conflict of interests with this being Yarh Har crowd. You guys know who? TBH I never had a problem with the real mods on the discord they seemed pretty even handed. it was the baby mods they set up (Leo in particular) that seemed unreasonable. Still probably not a bad idea to have your own corner. But please come visit this thread. I'd ask to come along but I'm pretty sure I seem suspect as I have no hate for Inno, just her discord.

I've been watching which mods come in and out around the times the thread gets purged, I have a suspect, but nothing conclusive...yet. I figured it was some new blood on the Discord, not just all of them. I'd say you're welcome in our spaces as well as long as you don't try to disrupt us just because we speak negatively toward the developer or the game's development as it is now. I'll be sticking around here, of course, I have other threads I am active in anyway.

Probably if your active drive is a HDD it wouldn't, but with my active drive being the SSD it did seem to improve performance quite a bit probably because the page file is on SSD. You should try moving your page file to the SSD it will improve the performance of your computer over all. If you haven't already.

My main drive is my SSD with the HDD second as a place where I put large files. If this game ever gets to the point of being over 2GB, not likely in Inno's hands, it will get moved for space reasons.

 

[bobomb]

I've been watching which mods come in and out around the times the thread gets purged, I have a suspect, but nothing conclusive...yet. I figured it was some new blood on the Discord, not just all of them. I'd say you're welcome in our spaces as well as long as you don't try to disrupt us just because we speak negatively toward the developer or the game's development as it is now. I'll be sticking around here, of course, I have other threads I am active in anyway.


My main drive is my SSD with the HDD second as a place where I put large files. If this game ever gets to the point of being over 2GB, not likely in Inno's hands, it will get moved for space reasons.

Yeah hit me up. I am always down for respectful discussion of things I like (By respectful I mean respectful of the principals in the discussion, people are welcome to their opinions of any product IDC). And I have found that discussion with people I don't agree with (In terms of the developer anyway, I am not ready to outright call Innoxia disingenuous I have not seen evidence of that) is good for my perspective and soul. I am a free speech guy. This cancel culture shit has to go. The remedy for bad speech is more speech. I will say though (I just thought on it a little more) If that Slaanesh's Champion guy is gonna be there just save the invite. I don't need to be slandered just because someone wants to flame

 

[tehlemon]

lmao, I love all the passive aggressive bitchy comments.

Also, this computer discussion is in need some of How Computers Work 100 lessons. Maybe once the new update comes out, otherwise I'm pretty much bored of just complaining about moderation.