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Toramizu

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Game Developer
Oct 14, 2017
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The game is about player freedom, not imposed restrictions. It's more like Fenoxo's games (CoC and TiTS) than Trap Quest or Degree of Lewdity.
And it's not really a "linear visual novel", it has gameplay, sidequests and freeform gameplay, like slave hunting.
But I agree about needing some changes. The game is indeed too lax in most cases. I'd like to be able to find a rare item or slave, but you can buy 90% of the items in the main shops and slave looks and fetishes can be too easily changed to bother looking for interesting ones.
 
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Indexless

Member
Aug 25, 2017
147
293
251
I think the main thing I want from this game is more sandbox elements when you invite people to live in your apartment. My ideal is something like Artificial Academy 2 where characters can just do whatever they want and interact with each other in unique ways. Say you might notice someone getting close to someone you're in a relationship with trying to fuck them so you can try push them away or let it happen and watch the consequences or say you have 2 characters you want in your harem but they hate each other and won't join so long as the other is there so you have to try make them get along. I want more layers of randomness to spice things up because things are more interesting that way.
 

Divus

Newbie
May 6, 2018
37
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206
The thing is, Even CoC or TiTs has 'badstuff' as a result of loss, things worth avoiding, and things that provide the illusion of a loss of control for the player. And even in the power fantasy aspect of LT, its kind of underwhelming unless you get off exclusively to 'big number go brr.' In CoC, for example, there's Marble, with her addictive milk, and in that game getting rid of addiction is a multi-day withdrawal where you are made weaker both by not keeping the boon associated with it up, but actually temporarily lose stat points. In LT, the closest thing is Roxy's 'lick for an item' addiction, which you solve by simply enchanting an item to remove addictions.
Speaking of addiction, its a mechanic that works for interesting interactions for both sides, neither of which are really implemented. There are no events where you're accosted in the streets by an NPC you fucked full of addictive cum, begging you to have your way with them so they can get a fix. There's no bonus to slave affection or obedience for making them physically dependent on you, or penalties to money earned when they go through withdrawal.
Its a lack of consequence, really, no matter what side your on in the dom/sub path.
 

Daddums

Member
Oct 26, 2019
410
1,382
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Speaking of addiction, its a mechanic that works for interesting interactions for both sides, neither of which are really implemented. There are no events where you're accosted in the streets by an NPC you fucked full of addictive cum, begging you to have your way with them so they can get a fix. There's no bonus to slave affection or obedience for making them physically dependent on you, or penalties to money earned when they go through withdrawal.
Its a lack of consequence, really, no matter what side your on in the dom/sub path.
There actually was supposed to be such a system, but I think Inno gave up on it.

That's more or less why I think it's stupid to ask Inno to change the game to fit this punishment simulator or make such drastic changes because it's not gonna end up how you want it to and you're just gonna end up pissing off the people that like the game's direction as it is -- even if it's at a snail's pace and particularly shallow it's in the direction they want. Inno needs to get people who know how to code that can apply the system Inno wants into the game, Inno can design the framework but someone much more skilled can get it working. Once that comes around, yeah, you can start adding bad end people into the game, but until then? Inno isn't capable enough to pull it off. For cripesake... how long has that "Talk about background" system been "not presently implemented" with a generic, "I'm not ready to talk about it"?

If Inno does get such a team... maybe one such punishment scenario would be you got arrested by Enforcers and you have to play the game in prison with its own system and culture until someone posts bail for you or pays off the debt. Maybe a bounty system that sends stronger people after you as time goes on or crimes increase. The way I understand it even being related to a Lilin has some limits to what you can pull off, it might just be a three day stint and the more you get arrested the longer you end up in there until you can get someone to pay it off for you. You can be a prison bitch or you can take one in this scenario, but without the magic items and the present nerfing it would probably be one hell of a challenge.

Again, though, until Inno has people that know what they're doing to fix up such a system... don't ask for it. Not just for our sake, but your own. I like the game, but I'll be as blunt as possible about it.
 
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Sep 7, 2020
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Don't get me wrong, part of the point I'm making is to avoid it all being "bad end" stuff.

The point is for all of this to be radiant. To be part of the world. Not scripted encounters but encounters that occur from random enemies out of interlocking systems. This already exists to create a character like Brax for example, you can cross a dangerous part of the city and encounter a wolf that is literally Brax who wants to transform you into his wolfgirl and give you the submission fetish.

The point is to expand on this principle. The systems exist to create a Brax, the systems should exist to create all the scripted types of characters you can imagine in this world. We have scripted characters that exist who will use cursed items intended to be debilitating, the point is that all scripted characters should also functionally be possible outcomes of the sandbox too.

which you solve by simply enchanting an item to remove addictions.
I completely agree with the point that being able to remove these debilitating effects instantly basically means consequences do not exist.

This could be resolved by making enchantment use require being at an enchanting table. Which means the player actually has to travel to the table at the very least, but ideally it would take more than 1 day, the lazy way to do this is to prevent enchantment removal for a randomised amount of time. This brings us back to why rent is needed though -- if something takes more than 1 day there needs to be something that prevents a player from skipping 5 days just by sleeping the entire time. Rent exists as a mechanic in games to prevent people just skipping ahead. It makes the days meaningful and makes the player think "I can't just waste my time".

Restrictions are necessary to making players have real meaningful choices.

As for dominant/submissive sides of this, you CAN cater to both player bases. This comes down to construction of the player character. You want to feel dominant (IE you beat everything in the world?) fine, we can do that in character creation via the choices of how a player constructs their character. Give strengths and weaknesses to player character creation and the players can prebuild the type of experience they may have, either one where all these kinds of features become negligible because you're ridiculously powerful, or one where all these kinds of features become an overwhelming force that corrupts and degrades the player into a sexualised bimbo mess because the player is a weak little thing that can't make it in this world of dominating demons.

You can have absolutely all these features and still allow players to be both powerful or weak within the world via character creation. DoL does this with player size, femininity and attractiveness changing the level of danger and ability to the player's overall capacity to fight back. Obviously that does not need to be copied. It can be done with all kinds of traits or possibilities.

It doesn't have to be a one or the other thing. I don't know why everyone thinks that. If you want to be powerful and capable of dominating without being subject to all this stuff then you just build a powerful character. If you want to experience a challenging battle against all this that you either win or lose then you build an average character. If you want to experience a world that absolutely dominates and crushes you with all of these things then you build a very weak character. The different types of players that want different experiences can still be catered to just fine.
 

Sarkath

Active Member
Sep 8, 2019
547
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245
Inno needs to get people who know how to code that can apply the system Inno wants into the game, Inno can design the framework but someone much more skilled can get it working.
You know, bounties might be a decent way of encouraging this sort of behavior. Github has a projects feature where milestones and such can be posted and set. If Inno made use of this and attached some amount of quiddage to it, I'm sure people would bite. It would be way cheaper than hiring someone full-time, but it would still ensure that people who contribute significant fixes/features get compensated from it (thus encouraging them to take on the work).

Naturally, some level of quality control would have to be maintained to ensure that people don't end up pocketing, say, £100 for contributing utter garbage.
 

anon707

Member
Jun 13, 2018
296
553
235
There actually was supposed to be such a system, but I think Inno gave up on it.

That's more or less why I think it's stupid to ask Inno to change the game to fit this punishment simulator or make such drastic changes because it's not gonna end up how you want it to and you're just gonna end up pissing off the people that like the game's direction as it is -- even if it's at a snail's pace and particularly shallow it's in the direction they want. Inno needs to get people who know how to code that can apply the system Inno wants into the game, Inno can design the framework but someone much more skilled can get it working. Once that comes around, yeah, you can start adding bad end people into the game, but until then? Inno isn't capable enough to pull it off. For cripesake... how long has that "Talk about background" system been "not presently implemented" with a generic, "I'm not ready to talk about it"?

If Inno does get such a team... maybe one such punishment scenario would be you got arrested by Enforcers and you have to play the game in prison with its own system and culture until someone posts bail for you or pays off the debt. Maybe a bounty system that sends stronger people after you as time goes on or crimes increase. The way I understand it even being related to a Lilin has some limits to what you can pull off, it might just be a three day stint and the more you get arrested the longer you end up in there until you can get someone to pay it off for you. You can be a prison bitch or you can take one in this scenario, but without the magic items and the present nerfing it would probably be one hell of a challenge.

Again, though, until Inno has people that know what they're doing to fix up such a system... don't ask for it. Not just for our sake, but your own. I like the game, but I'll be as blunt as possible about it.
and this is why the game needs a fresh do over.
 

Carl0sDanger

Active Member
May 22, 2020
556
850
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I agree to an extent, and tell Inno I don't mean her harm.
By "appreciate", I meant "understand". As in, " Inno is definitely not understanding what her claimed vision of this game is going to require ..."

I was not speaking on behalf of Inno, nor have I communicated with her for some time.

I agree with you about choices needing consequences. I'd probably go further and say a choice can't really be meaningful without consequences. This is what's behind the "wide as an ocean, deep as a puddle" criticism that many have leveled at mechanics like the transformation system. You can turn into just about anything, but there's only a couple of situations where anyone even notices. You can get your slaver license from Finch as a 40-something man, return to his shop as a teenage catgirl and he doesn't say shit.

Ahem.

I think something you may be overlooking though is that the game is currently only just out of the intro stage. It's only after the MC talks with Lilaya that the projected plot of the game proper is revealed. Until very recently, this was also where the main questline had stalled for a couple years while Inno added sidequests (to the intro stage!) and fiddled with the mechanics of systems that are going to eventually have to be replaced. It's hardly surprising that there are very few - if any - events with repercussions for the MC; the game's not yet at the stage where such things would be appropriate.

We're really going to have to see how the current stage pans out. What I'd like is for Inno to provide actual choices as to how the MC is going to approach the confrontation with Lunette. At minimum, I think there needs to be a clear choice between liberation and conquest. Beyond that, there should be other opportunities to affect the kind of story that emerges from the game. Choice of allies? Tactics?

Probably my most significant disagreement with you would be with your contention that any significant improvement could be made to the current game by increasing the significance of random encounters. I think this would actually work against one the game's core concept: empowerment. I simply don't want a random event to determine the way my MC's story goes.

Full disclosure: I found DoL to be quite uninteresting. Clearly we have different tastes.
 

crash.7ds

Active Member
Nov 18, 2018
959
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There really isn't one that I've heard of, now that you mention it. There were some mini-image packs on the discord channel last I saw.
 

Ghost2894

Member
Nov 17, 2020
116
200
186
Maybe it's because im basically playing the game in cheat mode, but with the non-consensual stuff turned on I still have yet to encounter it. I also havent really left the starting city either
 

ViviX12

Engaged Member
Jan 5, 2019
3,276
5,150
698
Maybe it's because im basically playing the game in cheat mode, but with the non-consensual stuff turned on I still have yet to encounter it. I also havent really left the starting city either
if enemy you've beaten isn't interested in you (f.e. you're feminine and they're androphilic) the encounter will be non-con
 
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BaloneyAmone

Active Member
Mar 3, 2021
665
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Maybe it's because im basically playing the game in cheat mode, but with the non-consensual stuff turned on I still have yet to encounter it. I also havent really left the starting city either
Additionally, if you lose a fight, you can start a scene in the "resist" pace, and the regular option of just taking your lumps and leaving is disabled.
 

Ghost2894

Member
Nov 17, 2020
116
200
186
I thought maybe it would be something that came up with certain npc's like that one store owner in the market who doesnt like you. Oh well, figured I was just hitting bugs
 

tehlemon

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2021
1,229
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You know, bounties might be a decent way of encouraging this sort of behavior. Github has a projects feature where milestones and such can be posted and set. If Inno made use of this and attached some amount of quiddage to it, I'm sure people would bite. It would be way cheaper than hiring someone full-time, but it would still ensure that people who contribute significant fixes/features get compensated from it (thus encouraging them to take on the work).

Naturally, some level of quality control would have to be maintained to ensure that people don't end up pocketing, say, £100 for contributing utter garbage.
That's a great idea that I don't think will ever happen.

After some of the cash grabs we've seen out of Inno, I don't expect she'll ever want to share. Specially when she's got two or three people doing the hard work for free.

Maybe it's because im basically playing the game in cheat mode, but with the non-consensual stuff turned on I still have yet to encounter it. I also havent really left the starting city either
Yeah, you pretty much have to let it happen or it won't. Which is ironic, because it's non-con...

You basically have to let yourself lose, and then have an NPC who's both interesting in raping and interested in you.

I thought maybe it would be something that came up with certain npc's like that one store owner in the market who doesnt like you. Oh well, figured I was just hitting bugs
There is one NPC that'll jump you after a quest. But only if you let her. Which really isn't the same thing, obviously.
 

Daddums

Member
Oct 26, 2019
410
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and this is why the game needs a fresh do over.
From a coding standpoint, yes. Not so much a design standpoint. The only reason the design is having problems is because of Inno's inability to code the systems properly. Plus they drew up a world where you can effectively solve any problem with magic so logically - bear with me on that word - it doesn't make sense you shouldn't have access to that same ability.

You could make the item contraband from a demonic perspective as cures prevent degeneracy, I guess.
Yeah, you pretty much have to let it happen or it won't. Which is ironic, because it's non-con...

You basically have to let yourself lose, and then have an NPC who's both interesting in raping and interested in you.



There is one NPC that'll jump you after a quest. But only if you let her. Which really isn't the same thing, obviously.
Does SubscribeStar have a problem with true non-con? I'm not sure if they have any limitations, but I'm also not sure if you're asking for an auto-loss. If you are I'm not entirely sure how Inno would be able to code that - from their own abilities - but still allow people to fend off the attacker if they don't opt for non-con. Even then I may like being the dominant party in the non-con scenario so it would suck to lose out on it if I have to suffer an auto-loss occasionally despite being a powerhouse that can defeat a Lilin's child.

It'd basically be a repeat of the Dr. Badger fiasco or even the Mary Sue fiasco Inno had to deal with and that killed off writer submissions. If you deny the player agency that would otherwise make sense then it's bad game design.
 

tehlemon

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2021
1,229
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From a coding standpoint, yes. Not so much a design standpoint. The only reason the design is having problems is because of Inno's inability to code the systems properly. Plus they drew up a world where you can effectively solve any problem with magic so logically - bear with me on that word - it doesn't make sense you shouldn't have access to that same ability.

You could make the item contraband from a demonic perspective as cures prevent degeneracy, I guess.

Does SubscribeStar have a problem with true non-con? I'm not sure if they have any limitations, but I'm also not sure if you're asking for an auto-loss. If you are I'm not entirely sure how Inno would be able to code that - from their own abilities - but still allow people to fend off the attacker if they don't opt for non-con. Even then I may like being the dominant party in the non-con scenario so it would suck to lose out on it if I have to suffer an auto-loss occasionally despite being a powerhouse that can defeat a Lilin's child.

It'd basically be a repeat of the Dr. Badger fiasco or even the Mary Sue fiasco Inno had to deal with and that killed off writer submissions. If you deny the player agency that would otherwise make sense then it's bad game design.
I don't want an auto-loss, but I would challenge for a proper difficulty curve and progression. Right now the game is basically a few minutes of RNG deciding whether you win, and then you win literally everything in the game.

Also, it's more that if you opt IN to non-com, it doesn't actually exist. You have to opt in for this stuff to exist, and then it doesn't actually.
 

Scapdra1

Newbie
Feb 3, 2021
71
57
141
Maybe it's because im basically playing the game in cheat mode, but with the non-consensual stuff turned on I still have yet to encounter it. I also havent really left the starting city either
Buy and/or capture slaves, go to permissions, set them to use you, and allow them to roam freely in the house and city. This will cause them to engage you in a non-consensual encounter once per day per slave. the only downside to this is that it makes this game's memory issues 10x worse.
 
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