Java Lilith's Throne [v0.4.11.3 Hotfix] [Innoxia]

[H3ntaiMaster69]

I have been glazing over the discussions on this thread for a while now and I'm starting to think it was a terrible idea to turn off the comment section on the blog. I don't disagree with most of the criticism but up until recently, the worst of the brunt was mostly contained to that website. Now the most vocal have decided to move here.

It has only been a few weeks since it happened and a moderator already had to intervene a few times... which I don't remember happening since this thread was opened. I worry that, one day, one of said moderators is going to say "enough" and just close the entire thing for good, on the basis of our behavior and the fact we keep repeating the same mistakes, regardless of the warnings.

I wouldn't be surprised if someone on Discord is looking at the commotion we are making and laughing, rubbing their hands Sith-Lord like, knowing we are ultimately going to screw ourselves for it. Heck, maybe that's what some of them are hoping for. This is arguably the last stronghold we have to discuss this game more freely and its fate depends entirely on us.

Where else are we supposed to go? 8kun?

 

[H3ntaiMaster69]

Well, that's certainly not the worst possible place to go, but if anyone has any other ideas, they'd be welcome. Hell, if we agree on a place, we might just want to move there immediately and save our f95 accounts.

At this point i think it would be at least something, better watch the moderators tho, we wouldn't want it to become the discord.

 

[alex2011]

Where else are we supposed to go? 8kun?

This is not the only forum with a thread for this game and there are places where we can create our own. Reddit is one such place that has been suggested, in fact, I tried, but I don't meet either the time or the karma requirement to create a subreddit.

At this point i think it would be at least something, better watch the moderators tho, we wouldn't want it to become the discord.

As long as the moderation is done by someone who is capable of full impartiality, it would be fine. In the case of our own subreddit, the moderators would be decided by the creator of the subreddit, not sure if there is a requirement to be chosen as well like there is to create a subreddit in the first place or if it only relies on admin selection.

 

[throbzombie]

Where else are we supposed to go? 8kun?

I don't think that's a bad idea, honestly.

I've seen the screenshots, I already have a place in mind, but I will not openly state it so they can learn of it and implant supporters there as well.

Could you DM it to us?

 

[H3ntaiMaster69]

This is not the only forum with a thread for this game and there are places where we can create our own. Reddit is one such place that has been suggested, in fact, I tried, but I don't meet either the time or the karma requirement to create a subreddit.


As long as the moderation is done by someone who is capable of full impartiality, it would be fine. In the case of our own subreddit, the moderators would be decided by the creator of the subreddit, not sure if there is a requirement to be chosen as well like there is to create a subreddit in the first place or if it only relies on admin selection.

" karma requirement"

 

[H3ntaiMaster69]

I don't think that's a bad idea, honestly.



Could you DM it to us?

Nah I've been there for a long time, they hate F95 and newf*gs

 

[H3ntaiMaster69]

8kun is a shithole, a very funny shithole, but still a shithole. I've been banned for a day once because i asked if there was a futanari mod for a game on /hgg/.

 

[SordidDreams]

No you are not, you don't support the open world concept that is a core element of this game, your previous comments suggest that much. The majority does or it would already be gone.

You have got to be joking. The open world concept is very far from being a core element of this game on account of the fact that it doesn't exist. Yet. And hopefully never will, because if Inno hasn't managed to finish the starting town in five years, it's going to take literal centuries to populate that overworld map with content.

There HAVE to be empty tiles or you literally won't be able to walk two steps without interacting with some sort of content.

You say that as if it were a bad thing.

As they are supposed to be, kind of like how the teleporting works in Skyrim.

You seem to have forgotten that fast travel is a band-aid, not a solution.

Procedural generation is not necessary, but it would mean less work as then one block of code could apply to the entire area instead of having dedicated code for every single tile to trigger dedicated content. It would mean things could happen anywhere in that area at any time without all the hassle of writing out every single thing for every single tile.

You seem to have completely missed the point of my Daggerfall comparison. Daggerfall is exactly what you describe, and as I said, there's a good reason they don't make games like that anymore. Unique, hand-crafted content will always be superior to generated content.

That's not to say generated content can't be used, but you're gleefully jumping straight into the biggest pitfall game devs fall into, which is using the same generated content too many times. The more iterations you allow the player to see, the more obvious the limitations of your generator will become. Procedural generation tends to create places and NPCs that are technically unique but for all practical purposes interchangeable, which gets boring very quickly. LT already suffers from this in Dominion, where about the third or fourth randomly encountered NPC ceases to be interesting as anything other than a loot piñata. If you think slathering the overworld map in that kind of 'content' is going to make the game good, you need to think again.

There are only two ways to do generated content well. One is to make your world generator so complex that it doesn't just randomize the hair color and dick size of NPCs but starts actually creating interesting stories. But as we've established, Inno is no Tarn Adams. The other is to use simple generated content sparingly. Terraria does this very well. Even its largest world is actually quite small and contains only a handful of each type of structure. It could easily generate a dozen different dungeons for you to explore, but there's only ever just one, because having any more than that would result in the player being disappointed by them being basically the same. That would not be a bad approach for LT to take, but then its world still needs to be small.

A LOT of what you think I want is actually what has been officially stated by Inno themself

If I wanted to be charitable, I'd say Inno needs to realize she bit off more than she can chew.

 

[bobomb]

Definitely not fixed.

Latest release absolutely still has at least one memory leak. The memory leak while not interacting with the game seems to depend on what you were doing when inactivity started. If you just load a save and walk away, it doesn't happen. There also appears to be an issue where the game stops garbage collection or something along those lines. Just advancing time in the right circumstances will exponentially increase memory usage even when no other interaction is happening. I'm too lazy to actually watch memory dumps to watch it, but my rough guess is that the slave logging is clogging everything up by not properly culling the data past the one week it displays.

The game *definitely* has memory usage issues with normal use. The memory issues we're talking about are not all memory leaks. Many of the issues are design issues. These issues affect both builds of the game. The more slaves you allow to interact, some of the data storage is increased exponentially. And there's a bunch of cases like that.

You really don't seem to understand that "it works for me" does not mean there's not an issue. Claiming there's no issue because "it works for me" just makes it really obvious that we shouldn't be listening to you for a technical breakdown. And you really don't seem to know which performance issues people are actually talking about.

What are the right circumstances?
I have all my slaves set to interact with each other to the point that every third tile I advance across in the house prompts me for a join or ignore. I have to join or ignore every fourth or fifth time I explore in dominion. I just advanced the game through 20 days and 4 arcane storms and memory never got over 2 gigs and released whenever it came close. So tell me who doesn't understand the memory leak situation? Did you even test? Maybe you should go through those memory dumps before you tell me I can't QA. Now I am not saying that 2 gigs of memory usage is great or anything but I have populated the shit out of my save as much as I can and I can't make it break like it used to. Maybe people shouldn't be listening to you if you don't have more than that to offer. If you can tell me a circumstance in which there is a memory leak and I can reproduce it I will bow to your arrogance and not break bad when you get all shitty with me.
Correction I got it to 2.5 through normal play before it started releasing down again.

 

[garand_m12]

Where do I need to tweak on the save file to add extra genital to the character

 

[alex2011]

I don't think that's a bad idea, honestly.



Could you DM it to us?

Sent, feel free to spread them among the people NOT trying to censor us.

" karma requirement"






View attachment 1052633

Reddit in a nutshell.

Nah I've been there for a long time, they hate F95 and newf*gs

Yes, yes they do, little do they know I lurk in the shadows there as well, commenting in ways that emulate them. Funny thing, they caught me once when I was helping out in the Free Cities thread, but they've never caught on to which among them was me.

8kun is a shithole, a very funny shithole, but still a shithole. I've been banned for a day once because i asked if there was a futanari mod for a game on /hgg/.

They don't like that kind of content, or furry, so this gets a bad rep over there as well. They also don't seem to know that there is a difference between humanoid animals, furries, and humans with animal ears and tails, monster girls as we call them here.

You have got to be joking. The open world concept is very far from being a core element of this game on account of the fact that it doesn't exist. Yet. And hopefully never will, because if Inno hasn't managed to finish the starting town in five years, it's going to take literal centuries to populate that overworld map with content.


You say that as if it were a bad thing.


You seem to have forgotten that fast travel is a band-aid, not a solution.


You seem to have completely missed the point of my Daggerfall comparison. Daggerfall is exactly what you describe, and as I said, there's a good reason they don't make games like that anymore. Unique, hand-crafted content will always be superior to generated content.

That's not to say generated content can't be used, but you're gleefully jumping straight into the biggest pitfall game devs fall into, which is using the same generated content too many times. The more iterations you allow the player to see, the more obvious the limitations of your generator will become. Procedural generation tends to create places and NPCs that are technically unique but for all practical purposes interchangeable, which gets boring very quickly. LT already suffers from this in Dominion, where about the third or fourth randomly encountered NPC ceases to be interesting as anything other than a loot piñata. If you think slathering the overworld map in that kind of 'content' is going to make the game good, you need to think again.

There are only two ways to do generated content well. One is to make your world generator so complex that it doesn't just randomize the hair color and dick size of NPCs but starts actually creating interesting stories. But as we've established, Inno is no Tarn Adams. The other is to use simple generated content sparingly. Terraria does this very well. Even its largest world is actually quite small and contains only a handful of each type of structure. It could easily generate a dozen different dungeons for you to explore, but there's only ever just one, because having any more than that would result in the player being disappointed by them being basically the same. That would not be a bad approach for LT to take, but then its world still needs to be small.


If I wanted to be charitable, I'd say Inno needs to realize she bit off more than she can chew.

Far from being a core element when the main story, literally the core of the game, is supposed to take us through all nine areas plus each of the settlements in each area? Yeah, no, it is most definitely a core element.

You say that as if it were a bad thing.

Because, as I have said repeatedly, It actually IS a bad thing. Not many people want to take two steps just to trigger an encounter EVERY time. There has to be a break in between in some instances, which is where traveling the street tiles of settlements and only having a chance, not a guarantee, to trigger content in the wild areas WITHOUT triggering content come in. The game just gets tedious if literally every step leads to more content.

You seem to have forgotten that fast travel is a band-aid, not a solution.

No, a band aid is adding a patch to fix a bug while putting the patch code into the game itself for the next release, fast travel is how ALL games handle super long distances when the player just wants to get to their destination without issue. You use traveling on foot when you actually want to trigger content in the wild.

You seem to have completely missed the point of my Daggerfall comparison. Daggerfall is exactly what you describe, and as I said, there's a good reason they don't make games like that anymore. Unique, hand-crafted content will always be superior to generated content.

No, I got your point, but it doesn't apply here. What I describe is how to properly manage an open world game. Putting content literally everywhere is not the way to do that.

which is using the same generated content too many times

It doesn't have to be the same, it can have a bunch of different scenarios it can pull from at any time. Random does not mean the same.

The more iterations you allow the player to see, the more obvious the limitations of your generator will become

And? Nothing is limitless, the player is eventually going to see those limits no matter what you do.

Procedural generation tends to create places and NPCs that are technically unique but for all practical purposes interchangeable, which gets boring very quickly

It only gets boring if they do the same thing every time, they wouldn't in this case. Not only would the races be procedurally generated as we already see in the game, but the situations that come up would be as well. Is the balde eage harpy that just popped up here to rape you? Mug you? Eat you? Did they lose a child somewhere that needs to be found and came to the nearest person, you, for help in their search? Maybe they came to get help against a group of bandits. There are so many different scenarios I can think of off the top of my head for the fields alone. I have at least 200 different ones already playing out in my head. That would most definitely be more than enough to satisfy the issue of boredom. It would take a LONG time to see them all just on the randomization alone.

LT already suffers from this in Dominion, where about the third or fourth randomly encountered NPC ceases to be interesting as anything other than a loot piñata.

No, what Dominion suffers from is having three times the content, at least, that it should.

If you think slathering the overworld map in that kind of 'content' is going to make the game good, you need to think again

That kind of content is already supposed to happen all over the game world. The only places you are supposed to be safe is on the streets of a settlement or just outside of one. I never said it would make the game good, what I said is it would put content in empty areas and stop the overflow happening inside Dominion.

At this point, nothing will make the game good, at best it is destined to be okay, but good is a stretch.

One is to make your world generator so complex that it doesn't just randomize the hair color and dick size of NPCs but starts actually creating interesting stories

Which is the way I was thinking of it when I gave that idea in the first place.

The other is to use simple generated content sparingly

Like what Dominion is currently NOT doing.

That would not be a bad approach for LT to take, but then its world still needs to be small

Too late, far too late, the game was stated to have 9 areas with their own settlements by the end of development, not just one. Going back on that now would be like shooting yourself in the foot with a nuclear missile.

If I wanted to be charitable, I'd say Inno needs to realize she bit off more than she can chew

As an experienced programmer, I can definitely agree here. This is a project for a large team with no inexperienced developers on it, not for a single person who chose it for their first project. Even AAA devs would take a project like this cautiously.

 

[bobomb]

Alex, To be clear about my reply to Tehlemon the game still has performance issues and it's not a bad idea to keep your head count low if you aren't running a SSD like me.

 

[alex2011]

Alex, To be clear about my reply to Tehlemon the game still has performance issues and it's not a bad idea to keep your head count low if you aren't running a SSD like me.

I am, actually. I just haven't moved it off to my secondary drive, the SSD doesn't really do that much for games like this.

 

[bobomb]

No shit? One of the discord mods is modding this discussion?
That does seem kinda like a conflict of interests with this being Yarh Har crowd. You guys know who? TBH I never had a problem with the real mods on the discord they seemed pretty even handed. it was the baby mods they set up (Leo in particular) that seemed unreasonable. Still probably not a bad idea to have your own corner. But please come visit this thread. I'd ask to come along but I'm pretty sure I seem suspect as I have no hate for Inno, just her discord.

 

[bobomb]

I am, actually. I just haven't moved it off to my secondary drive, the SSD doesn't really do that much for games like this.

Probably if your active drive is a HDD it wouldn't, but with my active drive being the SSD it did seem to improve performance quite a bit probably because the page file is on SSD. You should try moving your page file to the SSD it will improve the performance of your computer over all. If you haven't already.

 

[alex2011]

No shit? One of the discord mods is modding this discussion?
That does seem kinda like a conflict of interests with this being Yarh Har crowd. You guys know who? TBH I never had a problem with the real mods on the discord they seemed pretty even handed. it was the baby mods they set up (Leo in particular) that seemed unreasonable. Still probably not a bad idea to have your own corner. But please come visit this thread. I'd ask to come along but I'm pretty sure I seem suspect as I have no hate for Inno, just her discord.

I've been watching which mods come in and out around the times the thread gets purged, I have a suspect, but nothing conclusive...yet. I figured it was some new blood on the Discord, not just all of them. I'd say you're welcome in our spaces as well as long as you don't try to disrupt us just because we speak negatively toward the developer or the game's development as it is now. I'll be sticking around here, of course, I have other threads I am active in anyway.

Probably if your active drive is a HDD it wouldn't, but with my active drive being the SSD it did seem to improve performance quite a bit probably because the page file is on SSD. You should try moving your page file to the SSD it will improve the performance of your computer over all. If you haven't already.

My main drive is my SSD with the HDD second as a place where I put large files. If this game ever gets to the point of being over 2GB, not likely in Inno's hands, it will get moved for space reasons.

 

[bobomb]

I've been watching which mods come in and out around the times the thread gets purged, I have a suspect, but nothing conclusive...yet. I figured it was some new blood on the Discord, not just all of them. I'd say you're welcome in our spaces as well as long as you don't try to disrupt us just because we speak negatively toward the developer or the game's development as it is now. I'll be sticking around here, of course, I have other threads I am active in anyway.


My main drive is my SSD with the HDD second as a place where I put large files. If this game ever gets to the point of being over 2GB, not likely in Inno's hands, it will get moved for space reasons.

Yeah hit me up. I am always down for respectful discussion of things I like (By respectful I mean respectful of the principals in the discussion, people are welcome to their opinions of any product IDC). And I have found that discussion with people I don't agree with (In terms of the developer anyway, I am not ready to outright call Innoxia disingenuous I have not seen evidence of that) is good for my perspective and soul. I am a free speech guy. This cancel culture shit has to go. The remedy for bad speech is more speech. I will say though (I just thought on it a little more) If that Slaanesh's Champion guy is gonna be there just save the invite. I don't need to be slandered just because someone wants to flame

 

[tehlemon]

lmao, I love all the passive aggressive bitchy comments.

Also, this computer discussion is in need some of How Computers Work 100 lessons. Maybe once the new update comes out, otherwise I'm pretty much bored of just complaining about moderation.

 

[bobomb]

lmao, I love all the passive aggressive bitchy comments.

Also, this computer discussion is in need some of How Computers Work 100 lessons. Maybe once the new update comes out, otherwise I'm pretty much bored of just complaining about moderation.

Well that would certainly explain why you are leaving the passive aggressive bitchy comments. Grats on at least being honest about it. BTW, I am still waiting on your technical breakdown of how to initiate that memory leak. Screeny or it didn't happen.

 

[SordidDreams]

Far from being a core element when the main story, literally the core of the game, is supposed to take us through all nine areas plus each of the settlements in each area? Yeah, no, it is most definitely a core element.

It's supposed to sometime in the future, but in the current version it does not exist. Therefore, it's not the reason people like this game, it's not the reason they play this game. It can't be, because it doesn't exist. Simple as that.

Not many people want to take two steps just to trigger an encounter EVERY time.

Oh, I see the problem. You misunderstand "content" to only mean "random encounter". It does not.

fast travel is how ALL games handle super long distances when the player just wants to get to their destination without issue

Thereby putting a band-aid on the issue of having super long distances in the game in the first place.

Nothing is limitless, the player is eventually going to see those limits no matter what you do.

Yes, but it's a poor idea to actively draw attention to them, which is what you want to do.

what I said is it would put content in empty areas and stop the overflow happening inside Dominion

Yes, and I pointed out that copypasting the same content into different places doesn't add anything to the game and that there is no overflow happening in Dominion. Get with the program.

Too late, far too late, the game was stated to have 9 areas with their own settlements by the end of development, not just one. Going back on that now would be like shooting yourself in the foot with a nuclear missile.

Wrong way around again. Attempting to carry out that overambitious plan would be shooting yourself in the foot.

As an experienced programmer, I can definitely agree here. This is a project for a large team with no inexperienced developers on it, not for a single person who chose it for their first project. Even AAA devs would take a project like this cautiously.

And yet you insist that Inno needs to keep pushing ahead without scaling the game down? The only logical conclusion here is that you want her to fail and abandon the project. Which doesn't really gel with your claims that you want the game to be good.