Java Lilith's Throne [v0.4.9.9] [Innoxia]

[Deleted member 570248]

One issue is that while Innoxia is definitely not a professional making a professional product, I like to take a broader structural approach to these sorts of things and one takeaway I frequently hear from amateur programmers/designers/etc. is that Java is an absolute goddamn cesspit of a system and will murder every project of depth you will ever be able to dream of and initially implement. It just seems really bad.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Java, just people who don't use it properly and then blame the language. The issue with this game is not the java language. It's how Innoxia went about architecting it. Why she felt the need to create an engine from scratch is beyond me, especially as a novice/beginner developer, and it shows. Using JavaFX for a video game is already rocky at best and she didn't even make use of the JavaFX UI Library.

Effectively Lilith's Throne is a web application embedded in a JavaFX application which is already going to cause considerable headache.

Her code was not made with extensibility in mind, as a lot of things are hard-coded and Enums are abused (until recently) pretty much every game object was an Enum. Her code is very disorganized, stuff is all over the place and the way it is organized means that with every new addition the time to develop increases exponentially. Not a very maintainable application.

Now all of this is forgivable, if you're a novice developer, you're a novice developer. You're supposed to make these sort of mistakes so that you can learn from them and grow, namely in a team-based environment with more senior developers to gather advice from.

Innoxia's failings is more due to the fact that she is a solo dev, and quite frankly the furry adult community is filled with these sort of devs because they realize they can make money while working on passion projects. Because of this she'll make all of these mistakes and not really know they're mistakes. There's nobody reviewing her code but herself, nobody holding her to good practices. And because of this those mistakes are allowed to fester until there's no going back. I think Innoxia realized that her bad development practices have caught up to her and nothing short of a full re-write is going to really solve these problems. And that saps your motivation hard.

Honestly if it were me, I'd of just used the libGDX library as the game engine, and then utilized the Artemis ODB ECS (Entity-Component Sytem) to build this game. Then made it purely data-driven with moddability in mind from day one.

EDIT: I should add that Java does have it's issues, but so does every other language made, there is no perfect language. It's just a tool and a tool is only as good as the person using it, and if they are using that tool for the proper job. The way Innoxia built this game, using any other language wasn't going to help matters.

 

[tehlemon]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Java, just people who don't use it properly and then blame the language. The issue with this game is not the java language. It's how Innoxia went about architecting it. Why she felt the need to create an engine from scratch is beyond me, especially as a novice/beginner developer, and it shows. Using JavaFX for a video game is already rocky at best and she didn't even make use of the JavaFX UI Library.

Effectively Lilith's Throne is a web application embedded in a JavaFX application which is already going to cause considerable headache.

Her code was not made with extensibility in mind, as a lot of things are hard-coded and Enums are abused (until recently) pretty much every game object was an Enum. Her code is very disorganized, stuff is all over the place and the way it is organized means that with every new addition the time to develop increases exponentially. Not a very maintainable application.

Now all of this is forgivable, if you're a novice developer, you're a novice developer. You're supposed to make these sort of mistakes so that you can learn from them and grow, namely in a team-based environment with more senior developers to gather advice from.

Innoxia's failings is more due to the fact that she is a solo dev, and quite frankly the furry adult community is filled with these sort of devs because they realize they can make money while working on passion projects. Because of this she'll make all of these mistakes and not really know they're mistakes. There's nobody reviewing her code but herself, nobody holding her to good practices. And because of this those mistakes are allowed to fester until there's no going back. I think Innoxia realized that her bad development practices have caught up to her and nothing short of a full re-write is going to really solve these problems. And that saps your motivation hard.

Honestly if it were me, I'd of just used the libGDX library as the game engine, and then utilized the Artemis ODB ECS (Entity-Component Sytem) to build this game. Then made it purely data-driven with moddability in mind from day one.

EDIT: I should add that Java does have it's issues, but so does every other language made, there is no perfect language. It's just a tool and a tool is only as good as the person using it, and if they are using that tool for the proper job. The way Innoxia built this game, using any other language wasn't going to help matters.

I just don't like coding in Java...

So I started with the other potentially terrible choice and started my prototyping in C#

 

[anon707]

Things that would actually add to the stale gameplay loop.
More Cursed Panties, less shirts and races.

All the new races and clothes you see are not done by Inno, they are done by modders who do it on their own time and Inno just throws that stuff into the game officially. The most she did for races and clothes was make it accessible for modding. So it cant be strike against Inno for that. I can at least give her credit for doing that, modding, while not an essential part of a game, is a huge way to expand a game's life and possibilities. Hell, if Inno didn't waste her time fumbling with the Nyan shit or half assing other shit, or kept making excuse for not progressing into fields and just worked on making the game more modding friendly, you would see a WHOLE LOT LESS complaining and mocking because at least then when Inno is too busy not being busy, the people can take things into their own hands. Modding helped filled the gap when it came to a lot of races that people would want in a mostly furry game (except for the cappybara... who the fuck asked for that) and even beyond furries.

 

[Carl0sDanger]

Free Cities has mods similar to what he describes, that will generate a visual representation from physical characteristics. Not only is it a conceivable idea, it has already been done rofl.

Thanks.

Paring down the character description would be essential though. At the moment, there are three separate stats that govern what a character's body looks like (Femininity, Body Size and Muscle Definition). That's 125 possibilities, and that's without considering breast (and maybe penis) size.

As the game currently stands, a full-body character illustrator is way beyond anything that is reasonable to expect.

What about a portrait (ie. head) illustrator though? Would that be somewhat saner to implement?

 

[anon707]

Free Cities has mods similar to what he describes, that will generate a visual representation from physical characteristics. Not only is it a conceivable idea, it has already been done rofl.

pics or you're huffing hot air

 

[mecha_froggy]

Honestly, what really bums me out ATM is the fact people still write shining reviews about this game.

Because it's like what Trials in Tainted Space should have been before they went off the deep end of trap sex?

 

[anon707]

What about a portrait (ie. head) illustrator though? Would that be somewhat saner to implement?

There's definitely a lot less to do with just head, but only just heads kinda seems... idk, weird? For one you'd still have to work with all the different kinds of animal heads there are. And there's a lot of them... some are just sub species so thats good. It would still take a lot of work, but less of self torture method than doing full bodies.

 

[Deleted member 3086194]

pics or you're huffing hot air

Uh sure? You haven't played Free Cities yet? You're missing out

Spoiler: Vector art mod

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So like.. it's obviously not perfect but its much better than text only

They are also working on a WebGL (3D) rendering, but that is still some ways away. I would link to the modded game but I think it's against the rules due to the content? Atleast everyone here is very hush hush about it

 

[anon707]

Uh sure? You haven't played Free Cities yet? You're missing out

Spoiler: Vector art mod

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So like.. it's obviously not perfect but its much better than text only

They are also working on a WebGL (3D) rendering, but that is still some ways away. I would link to the modded game but I think it's against the rules due to the content? Atleast everyone here is very hush hush about it

Ah. So thats the missing context. If I recall correctly, free cities only features humans, in which case this concept is much more feasible. Unlike a game like this where you have to account for all the different leg types like taurs, spider legs, tentacles, mermaid tails, and ferals. yes, this game also has ferals. to account for all the different shapes of all the different body parts all the different sizes. anyone masochistic enough to do this would be spending the rest of their lives drawing all that as it would require selling a piece of their soul to devil to get done and look decent. I've talked about it before in this thread how on feasible this concept is for this game. The only other furry centric game that did this was CoC 1 as a mod and while the artist who did it truly gave it their all and tried to accommodate for so much, even they had to throw in the towel.

 

[aspar4gus]

if u want example that's not restrained to humans only like FC, iirc there's also this other game called 'Slave Matrix' that has full depicition and variants of many species and in a paperdoll kind of system too

 

[organord]

if u want example that's not restrained to humans only like FC, iirc there's also this other game called 'Slave Matrix' that has full depicition and variants of many species and in a paperdoll kind of system too

Do you get to control their transformations? I don't see a transformation tag in the genres foldout, and a quick thread search yielded no results for "transformation", "transform" or "tf".

The game seems to be about Monster Girls, and I do see the taur and harpy in the preview images which showcase the more exotic body types it can handle.
But when you have a finite cast of immutable characters, you know exactly how many assets you have to create, and how to put them together.

The problem faced by LT (and CoC/CoC2/TiTS) is the unrestricted transformation system where you can create thousands of appearance permutations for your player character.
This makes representing them accurately very difficult, and the more freedom you have with your transformations, the more disappointing it is when the visual avatar doesn't match your headcanon.

 

[NoStepOnSnek]

Do you get to control their transformations? I don't see a transformation tag in the genres foldout, and a quick thread search yielded no results for "transformation", "transform" or "tf".

The game seems to be about Monster Girls, and I do see the taur and harpy in the preview images which showcase the more exotic body types it can handle.
But when you have a finite cast of immutable characters, you know exactly how many assets you have to create, and how to put them together.

The problem faced by LT (and CoC/CoC2/TiTS) is the unrestricted transformation system where you can create thousands of appearance permutations for your player character.
This makes representing them accurately very difficult, and the more freedom you have with your transformations, the more disappointing it is when the visual avatar doesn't match your headcanon.

It's a breeding game that lets you create arbitrary (and at times very bizarre) combinations. It's definitely one of the games that comes closer to the scope people are talking about here, but it's also limited to girls of uniform size and build and the paperdoll system is about 80% of the entire game, the rest being a training/sex minigame and whatever genetics are going on in the background.
Another honorable mention is probably Portals of Phereon, specifically Evolution's chimera form. But again, one girl of predefined build and a ton of assets were already available since all the races have full images.

 

[Golden_Buddy]

Uh sure? You haven't played Free Cities yet? You're missing out

Spoiler: Vector art mod

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

So like.. it's obviously not perfect but its much better than text only

They are also working on a WebGL (3D) rendering, but that is still some ways away. I would link to the modded game but I think it's against the rules due to the content? Atleast everyone here is very hush hush about it

here is a link to the free cities page

 

[NODOGAN]

I'm sorry if i'm derrailing the conversation cuz i don't know that much in coding and make mostly game-related question but any of the new races good for a mainly lust/teasing build? considering going either Swan Harpy or Sheep from what i glimpsed at.
Also did i got it wrong or the new Aristocrat Background is broken AF? like, sure you get corruption twice as easily but also like...each corruption point you get gives ya a +1 to all resistances? so at like corruption 100 then you get +100 resistance to fire/poison/ice and such?¡

 

[organord]

Also did i got it wrong or the new Aristocrat Background is broken AF? like, sure you get corruption twice as easily but also like...each corruption point you get gives ya a +1 to all resistances? so at like corruption 100 then you get +100 resistance to fire/poison/ice and such?¡

I'm seeing +0.25 per 1 Corruption in the tooltip. So 25 at max Corruption, not 100.
Aristocrat is still a very good all-rounder background due to the 25% melee and ranged damage along with those balanced resistances.

I think Soldier is still better for all out unga bunga damage since you can (for now) still end fights in a single turn with the "doubled damage on the first turn of battle" effect.
It remains to be seen how viable this will be later on when enemy HP should increase; it depends on whether player damage will always effortlessly keep pace to maintain the current (lack of) balance. But we'll only find that out some time in 2031 when v0.4.0 comes out (I know, I know, optimistic of me to lowball it like that).

Aside from that, musician lets you pull off some spell combos that flat out don't work otherwise (because it doubles spell durations, including those that last just one turn at base).

 

[tehlemon]

I'm sorry if i'm derrailing the conversation cuz i don't know that much in coding and make mostly game-related question but any of the new races good for a mainly lust/teasing build? considering going either Swan Harpy or Sheep from what i glimpsed at.
Also did i got it wrong or the new Aristocrat Background is broken AF? like, sure you get corruption twice as easily but also like...each corruption point you get gives ya a +1 to all resistances? so at like corruption 100 then you get +100 resistance to fire/poison/ice and such?¡

The race bonuses are pretty... well.. pointless. And with the way lust damage scales, it'll never be as good late game as physical damage. There's a pretty hard cap on lust damage that you can reach very quickly, and none of the racial bonuses will allow you surpass that cap.

Aristocrat is alright, but not as broken as soldier and musician, which are basically overkill for anything currently in the game.

Aside from that, musician lets you pull off some spell combos that flat out don't work otherwise (because it doubles spell durations, including those that last just one turn at base).

I don't honestly know what combos you'd even need. I always just use it for flash duration, and then you can ignore everything else lol

 

[organord]

I don't honestly know what combos you'd even need. I always just use it for flash duration, and then you can ignore everything else lol

You need to apply self-imposed restrictions to roleplay a pure mage (eg. spells only, high aura low physique, no martial weapons) for most spells to be worth using even if their durations are doubled.
If you permit yourself to use weapons then it's much better to just bash things over the head (and then you'd just take Soldier to make first-turn kills easier, locking out any Musician spell combos anyways).

Been a while since I played my pure mage, but I recall the large health shielding effect from Teleport being useful. Having it last 2 turns means you can maintain that while having more time to do other things and regain Aura in between.

And it makes a bunch of other spells very fire-and-forget since their durations become long enough to last an entire battle/until an individual target is defeated. Stuff like the telekinetic rocks and the autocastable lust whisper spell.

I mean, yeah you can just spam flash/ice shard and stunlock things, but then it's just as dull as soldier OTKs. Trying to make the other spells work is where it's at when you're trying to play pure mage.

 

[SordidDreams]

Eh, lust mage can still use Arcane Arousal to defeat anything non-demon in one turn and demons in two. The only spell combo that comes to mind is vacuuming equipment off of enforcers in Claire's quest to get some otherwise unobtainable items.

 

[PussyPassAnon]

Idk why you all even use attacks. I just click "End Turn" and let my Elemental nuke everything.

 

[NajaNaga]

The race bonuses are pretty... well.. pointless.

I was thinking about stuff related to this a bit the other day. The companions system has been abandoned even if you can technically still use it, and the intention seems to be that the player (eventually) gets upgraded into a demon that can shapechange parts from other races while keeping the demon stats.

So the fact that the non-demon races are so weirdly balanced (some get next to nothing, some are busted) is basically meaningless. The built-in stat changes might as well not be there, honestly.