Mental illness doesn't always make sense and like I said, he is as screwed up mentally as Lacey is. It doesn't justify it, that wasn't my point, it was that there is "some" reasoning to it that could be "argued" points as opposed to most NTR games where it is just silly beyond any means.
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Estius
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I get what you're saying about other NTR games, but honestly a lot of them are far more realistic than this and the "mental illness" just feels like an excuse for the behavior when they are perfectly capable in their professional lives. This one is definitely "silly beyond any means" considering her supposed best friend during college was pumping her full of drugs and not only watched her get sexually assaulted, but took pictures as well? She's literally a horrible human being and we're supposed to come to some kind of friendly terms with this character? Ridiculous.
I really enjoy Professor Amethyst's other games though because they are set in fantasy worlds and it's easy to suspend disbelief even when the ridiculous happens. He's really a talented writer in that regard. If this game were set in some weird alternate universe, I probably wouldn't be rolling my eyes all the way through it, haha.
They are functional, but screwed up in a very specific way as it concerns key things. Lacey is harder to believe because of how bad she is, and the excuses they give to the drug use, etc...
The MC is just emotionally crippled in his dependence to her and there are highly functional people out there with some SERIOUS mental health issues, so just because they can work fine with people, focus on tasks, specialize in skills, etc... doesn't mean that when it comes to a specific "person", they are beyond reason. I knew a guy who once who was straight laced, completely on task, etc... but he had a girlfriend who made him bonkers, completely F'd up to where he couldn't think straight and like Lacey, she manipulated him knowing this.
So it is very believable to me on that front that the MC could be completely damaged because of his focus on her all through his youth to which developed extremely unhealthy concepts.
Not everything is reasonable though, Mia's acceptance makes no sense and no effort is put to even attempting to find purchase in sanity on that one. Even the idea of him being broken due to Lacey doesn't seem to remedy that one.
A more reasonable approach to her would be him not liking her (actually hating her massively), but... being fearful of losing Lacey due to how attached Lacey is to her and so he plays along due to that fear. That "at least" could be an acceptable reasoning, but then it would require some major story/dialogue rewrites concerning her.
Over all though, as I said, my point with this game is that the MC while silly, isn't portrayed as the complete fucking idiot that most NTR games have with the MCs. I mean, I can't stand most NTR games because they treat the MC as a doofus too stupid to understand even the most basic concepts of reasoning and so the whole "investigative plot" is just an exercise in futility:
"My GF just walked into a room with 10 men and I hear slapping sounds, gurgling and crude sexual calls... only to see her exit with her makeup messed up and her clothing/hair soaking wet... When I asked her about it, she said she the toilet plumbing broke and the men were helping her with the mess... Yeah... sounds legit..." derpity derp!
This while not perfect, does at least have an MC who while broken and makes some seriously stupid decisions on his wife, his friends and allies, etc... you can "somewhat" at least say "ok, he is letting his obsession/fear with his wife cloud his decision making" and he does "at times" unleash the reactions we all would do, but he just can't seem to... reason it through, he chickens out and goes back to the shell he hides in.
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Well....you know....
Ok Yara...stop yelling girl....jeesh....gonna need rehydrating again at this rate.....
Estius
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Yeah, it's basically an exercise in mental gymnastics. I fully expect our brilliant MC to move into Isaac's house in the next chapter. Seems like something he would do. And of course Isaac will probably have hidden cameras set up all over the house.
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I know right? What could go wrong? If they try to work in the "hidden camera" thing, it is going to look retarded. MC already has shown he knows all about camera systems and deals with them at work. If somehow he allows them to exist or function outside of his control when he moves in, well... that is about as stupid as having an MC who is a mechanic and then having him unable to change a flat tire.
Though... this could also be a means for the MC to catch behavior in the house, so there is always a plot direction in that respect, using the cameras as a means to spur the story along through his discovery of certain things going on while he isn't there. Could even be another means for Lacey to get caught in something.
So, I have been browsing the various Netorare games and I have noticed that the L&J, while certainly different than most Netorare games out there (it isn't one, but it kind of is as well), honestly captures a more honest view of the concept. It is packaged differently obviously, dealing more with the aftermath of an Netorare story, but it at least attempts to pay honest service to that story concept.
Most of the Netorare stories I see are just gimmicks to promote kinks (not a surprise, it is a porn site), but... there is much more to the concept of Netorare outside of sexual kink and if done well can create a very compelling and emotional story of loss, and more importantly if it pays respectful service, a means for the MC to find some resolution, something the viewer can relate to (ie what would I do if I were caught up into this? How would I react if these were the situations presented me).
I think there is an interesting progression of emotional journey such stories can provide and it is why I think this game resonates with so many people, even if it is from a shock and horror perspective.
I see both sides of the fence in this, people who hate NTR and people who love NTR have strong feelings about the game. For those who hate NTR, they can at least see some "reasonable" means within the story to connect to (within reason) where people can see both sides of the cheater and the cheated and find some... connection or at least understanding in it.
For those who love NTR (more specifically the Netori lovers), there is the draw they may like, but then the shock of reality that the cheating produces, something that most NTR games completely avoid as it would "kill the mood of the kink" so to speak.
That is, it is hard to view the cheater with positivity when you get to fully listen to the rationale of the one being cheated on expressing their full view of the actions of the cheater which no longer gives a sexy appeal to their actions.
I would love to see the Professor explore NTR more in other games, really delving into the full progression of the cycle in a more traditional format, but with an MC that actually has a mind, isn't a complete idiot, notices the cheating, seeks resolution, revenge, or a means to find a way to disconnect from the offense without it being simply a "you are cucked! LOL" that most NTR games operate on.
Anyway, just my thoughts.
Most of the Netorare stories I see are just gimmicks to promote kinks (not a surprise, it is a porn site), but... there is much more to the concept of Netorare outside of sexual kink and if done well can create a very compelling and emotional story of loss, and more importantly if it pays respectful service, a means for the MC to find some resolution, something the viewer can relate to (ie what would I do if I were caught up into this? How would I react if these were the situations presented me).
I think there is an interesting progression of emotional journey such stories can provide and it is why I think this game resonates with so many people, even if it is from a shock and horror perspective.
I see both sides of the fence in this, people who hate NTR and people who love NTR have strong feelings about the game. For those who hate NTR, they can at least see some "reasonable" means within the story to connect to (within reason) where people can see both sides of the cheater and the cheated and find some... connection or at least understanding in it.
For those who love NTR (more specifically the Netori lovers), there is the draw they may like, but then the shock of reality that the cheating produces, something that most NTR games completely avoid as it would "kill the mood of the kink" so to speak.
That is, it is hard to view the cheater with positivity when you get to fully listen to the rationale of the one being cheated on expressing their full view of the actions of the cheater which no longer gives a sexy appeal to their actions.
I would love to see the Professor explore NTR more in other games, really delving into the full progression of the cycle in a more traditional format, but with an MC that actually has a mind, isn't a complete idiot, notices the cheating, seeks resolution, revenge, or a means to find a way to disconnect from the offense without it being simply a "you are cucked! LOL" that most NTR games operate on.
Anyway, just my thoughts.
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There really isn't. Those games specifically cater to pathetic men who want to see their LI cheat or owned by someone else. Nothing more to it...so of course there is no logical story or even common sense to them. Pineapple Express anyone? Seriously, do you know a single person alive who would actually go along with that stupid shit? Me neither.
There are no NTR lovers here...because they are an insufferably loud and fucking annoying bunch. Have you noticed them? No, me neither. If they are here, they are keeping surprisingly quiet about their presence. People enjoy this because it's a godamn train wreck you can't turn your eyes away from. That's the fun. We're all rubber-necking here just to see how bad it will get, beyond what it already is lol.
Definitely not, thanks.
No offence, but you keep going on...and on...and on...about the side effects. There is only one side effect, and we are not allowed (currently at least, I doubt we ever will though) to actually go that way. That is not the story being presented. As we have discussed before, allowing us to do what nearly every single person in the entire world (because sorry, pathetic cucks are an incredibly small minority even on this site, never mind the world)...
....would...be...a different...game/story. She'd cheat...you'd find out....throw her ass out of the house....and as I've asked you before...then what? I'll tell you, a different story completely. So may as well just start that different story as a single MC who has recently just left his partner because she's a cheating hoe. In that story, why even bother showing the cheating...because 'that story'...would not be a NTR story would it?
It would be a 'getting over it' story and sure, I agree with you, that could be a great VN in and of it's own right.
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See, that is more of a game, and rather a stupid story IMO. I prefer a story with some minor path changes similar to how L&J works. Nobody in their right mind would agree to that story premise, it is yet another "kink" story to be honest which is more about letting the player have his wife get railed than it is about the whole "cheating" process.
It is why I don't like playing the MC and the FMC. Those games serve no point in Netorare as all they are is player planned cucking, or just a boring story about the wife avoiding cheating. Again, misses the point of Netorare. The wife MUST cheat, the MC must not be able to stop it. Netorare is about her being taken, the MC losing, and dealing with the discovery of the cheat, betrayal and eventual loss. That is Netorare, but there should be a "resolution" for the MC and most spend all their time just serving the kink, not the actual concept of the emotional loss and dealing with the aftermath.
For that same reason is why I like well done Netorare. Ones where there is a strong story of love, betrayal, and the aftermath. The range of emotions from the start to the end, but more importantly, and why I enjoy L&J, because the MC actually gets a voice (to an extent) in this one. We know why the MC stays with lacey here, he is mentally bat shit loony because of the abuse she has committed on him as well as the self damage he has done to himself in trying to save her.
In that, I can see some reason why he stays, but when he unloads on her, tells her what she really is, completely draws out how fucking pathetic she is... that is a reasonable feeling and reaction a normal person would have in such a situation and something that is non-existent in most NTR games because they are mostly just cucking kink games, not really traditional Netorare. I could enjoy an Netorare story well done if there were no pictures at all, because it is the emotional roller coaster of the story that is the point, but... for me, there has to be resolution... something... him having revenge or leaving in a way that we also get to see the FMCs suffering due to her actions.
If the MC ever leaves and she ends up killing herself, that would be a nice resolution... because there would be a choice and consequence to everyone involved. NTR stories never usually deal with the aftermath, while the Aftermath is a major part of L&J.
Yet the bulk of these NTR stories are nothing more than cuck stories. That is all they are. As for people not being cucks? Who plays an NTR game from the MCs perspective, then claims they really just enjoy the MC being cucked by the FMC/antagonist, then claims they aren't into being cucked? Umm... Why not play Netori then? Why play the MC being cucked? I guess I don't get it because I see those NTR games with the cucked MC who is written in a way to force himself to be cucked like he wants it being all about cucking/humiliation fetish. It is why I dislike the ones that offer no resolution and end in "get cucked loser" because the entire game is for cucks.
Then what? Her suffering, her consequence to her actions. What about revenge arcs, they are a part of the concept of Netorare and its aftermath. After all, we are talking about a story, it doesn't have end in complete demoralization for the MC, that would be what a cuck seeking humiliation would desire.
Not a getting over it though, a "resolving" the NTR story. There are several Japanese Netorare that have various "resolution" endings. Some go into depth of setup, others are just quick. Nothing says they have to be quick, especially when you spent the bulk of the story going through a long slow burn emotional progression to the loss, why not continue with the slow burn resolution of the story in its entirety?
Maybe the MC flips out and goes ape shit crazy with an axe (quick ending), maybe he finds out before she knows he does, bides his time and sets up a glorious revenge on the FMC/Antagonist, I mean long con, devious and extremely diabolical where you get to see the suffering of the FMC/Antagonist in the same manner the MC did, but they don't know who is causing all of this, why bad things are happening, all the while the MC is taking pleasure in his revenge as they suffer into complete devastation and misery.
The story directions are endless and it would all be a complete cycle of from the MC/FMC "great love", to the corruption and slow suffering of the MC in his suspicion, to the revelation of his fears (ie actually verifying she is cheating), to the slow burn of justice to those who betrayed him.
Sure, you could just "start" a game as you mention, but... it would lose its "feel" as it needs the first half of the Netorare (being stole) to truly setup the rewarding conclusion of the revenge.
Again, just thoughts... I think it would be interesting if done right, slow burn, intelligently presented, reasoned and executed in a manner where you could say, yeah... I could see reacting that way if I wanted to take revenge...
Kind of side comment concerning the above discussion, but what are the rules concerning "fan" mods of existing VNs? Would authors flip out if for instance, someone took an existing NTR VN story that is mostly a "cuck" story and modified it to make the MC more competent and then add story arcs that lead to alternate endings and resolutions?
I have seen fan remakes from time to time around here, I assume it isn't a big deal?
I have seen fan remakes from time to time around here, I assume it isn't a big deal?
Squints
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As long as you float it by the author and/or give a nod to the original source in your story, I'd think most creators would be ok. Personally, I'd like to wait until the original work is completed, (particularly if they receive income from it) just so there isn't any confusion.
Would you be planning to do a February Sucks -type alteration to this one?
Not to this one specifically, I don't have any "major" objections to this game specifically, it is unique in its own way.
It is more for many NTR games I see which are framed as Netorare, but really are just Reverse Netori games centered around the kink to cuck/humiliate the MC and so he is written so completely moronic to drive the humiliation rather than an honest attempt at the Netorare struggle.
Of those games, I think some minor re-writes to various encounters and scenes to make the MC more intelligent and drive his reactions in a way that seem more logical combined with providing alternate paths for various things like revenge, or other resolutions that would complete a full Netorare cycle and resolution might make many who hate some specific NTR games find some enjoyment in them. You can stomach the fall if there is some justice or reasonable resolution for those MCs.
I don't care about the sex in most of these games (it was a novelty when I was first introduced to them), but I became interested in the NTR ones for the emotional progression of the MC and I think some of them might be pretty good with additional paths to the story arc resolutions.
Some NTR games do this, but they are few and far between and sure... you could write your own, but it is far easier to just work with all the material and assets already there to adjust a story to fit more with what I am getting at.
I was just unsure if people would throw tantrums on this, some developers can get really possessive on a mod/adaption, especially if it may directly conflict with their original vision to the work.
The professor mentions in L&J how he dislikes NTR, and I would say I agree with what he means (if it is what I think) because L&J deals with NTR, but not in the more common manner to which many NTR games do (ie to push a kink) and so it would be interesting to see more of a focus on the emotional side and struggle in NTR develop outside of a kink driver. Many of the games out there have a good base to work from (likeable characters, good art, etc...) and so I think it would be interesting to see more of a focus on that similar to how L&J attends to that concept.
Is it done yet? Dang, the anticipation is killing me, the professor better deliver some high grade train wreck shit show... I am like a soap addict now and can't wait for the next episode. 
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Well I wouldn't hold your breath then...AHfWG only came out a couple of weeks ago.Is it done yet? Dang, the anticipation is killing me, the professor better deliver some high grade train wreck shit show... I am like a soap addict now and can't wait for the next episode.
Yeah, I know... he said "possibly by the holidays", so my guess is sometime in November. I hope it is a solid long one though with some nice ups and downs. I know people don't want to see shock after shock, Lacey has reached her limit (for now), so he needs to get some cool down with her, but... what about a massive shit show shock from one of the others?
I don't think Mia would be a good one by herself, she doesn't fit well with an emotional tie to the MC due to her background. Anna and a couple of the others being drawn into something that puts them in the Lacey Betrayal area might work. Granted it would have to be something where they are tricked or given a drug, but results in some serious shock value to the MC which then would rattle his trust support with them, pushing him in a corner where he can't trust Lacey (obviously) or them and starts to feel... alone, where everyone is against him.
This could lead into him leaning more back on Lacey (if she isn't the one that screwed up this time) which could create a more "healing" between them, but that also leads in with a future screw up on her part again... in some fashion.
I know the story has to eventually run to a closure, but I would like some more roller coaster rides with train wrecks before we get there.
There is already a conspiracy going on with someone wanting to convert Lacy and her close friends to sluts using the "almost former" landlord and this new guy from Lacy's work. I would expect this plot line to continue and evolve to something nerve-wreaking.
Yeah, this should be an interesting progression, though as some said, Lacey has screwed up so much, I think it is going to be difficult to justify the MC holding on if she does another major betrayal right after the last cucking incident. I think this time around, she needs to not be placed into the direct path of harm so the MC can find some reprieve to reason him staying around.
At least if Lacey doesn't betray this time, he could find some grounding, and you could ride out the storm that comes from the previous "supports" breaking his trust. This would also allow for a means to have Lacey screw up in the future to cycle it again. It also presents a simple plan of "divide and conquer" from the antagonist view, breaking down his supports and then eventually attacking the source.
Even if it is all three that end up completely betraying him, I will ride along, but the story is going to need some major care as there is only so much I think a reader can take before it turns into Hangover Cat reasoning.
I trust it not to come to that though, the professor was pretty clear about their distaste for traditional NTR (or I assume the Western version of it), so... I would assume some tangible thread of sanity will be woven to try and rationalize him holding on.
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Very little. This is not a femdom game.
I feel you, I have been a MC critic for quite a while.
I also feel you are missing the point of the cameras, and they are not there for Isaac to do any wrongdoing.
It is true that the author has often tried to "subvert the expectations", but I don't see it happening with Isaac, not after all the character development (or should I say scrambling) he went through in act 2.
This is something I noticed in the writing, good guys (and girls, especially girls) are the good guys, no matter what they do, bad guys are bad, period.
I have a full version of Act 1 myself, which tries to make MC look like less of a toothless teen, he works for some "conquests", even if his mental damage is kept he does call out bad behaviour from the people around him.
It even has a short Mia redemption arc.
Sadly most of it has to be canned considering how act 2 evolved.
Tbh I would never give it out or publish it, since while it tries to respect the author story, it is still using their work in which they poured their sweat and (hopefully) soul in it.
Anna has a big target painted on her back, she is now isolated (weird and somewhat cruel choice by MC and Lacey since the explanation doesn't make a lick of sense), and everyone will be far away.
The healing cannot come from Lacey, it has to come from MC.
Funnily enough, the whole Act 1 is Lacey trying to heal MC, Act 2 has Mia trying to do it, both of them suck ass at it.
These attempts are driven by the fact that MC is incompetent and keeps on wallowing, granted, this doesn't excuse or alleviates what Lacey does at all, but it gives us a why.
While for Mia....welll she is Mia, the worst character in the whole game.
The fact that she is forgiven in a heartbeat every single time is....kinda horrible, Lacey and Christine in particular.
Lacey is betrayed by her when she exposes her past to MC, in a terrible way, for which Lacey is not even phased by.
Ok forgive her because she betrayed you, but is it possible that the only person that gets mildly annoyed by the messages is Anna? And not even that much.
I would have expected Lacey to go nuclear, or at least mention that lying to inflict damage upon the man she loves was not ok, yet it doesn't happen at all, not even a conversation.
The only mention we have of this is in act 2, a couple of lines of dialogue.
Then we get the second betrayal, a kind of shitty one, and still nothing, she gets invited to LA for their "honeymoon", the same person that tried to break them up a couple of weeks prior.
Without even getting in the whole college thing, it is hard to skip the fact that Mia, while being fearful of penises, was cheering Lacey getting SA'd.
But wait, lets get a bit in the college thing, since it is presented as a super duper sad period for both Lacey and Mia.
When Lacey wants to clean up, Mia decides that she wanted more fun (it is mentioned that they worked hard into cleaning Lacey up) and goes for the last "hurrah".
Do you do last hurrahs for stuff that is painful and harmful? In fact this time Lacey barely survives.
There is so much more to add to this, so Mia needs a serious redemption arc or retcon to actually come through as a good character, for example:
- Her hate for MC in college needs to stem not from jealousy or annoyance, but from her seeing MC anchoring Lacey to her hurtful past.
- Make her respect Lacey love for MC but see it as ultimately hurtful. (she never understood neither Lacey or MC, so this could fit)
- Change how the lessons go, she needs a real motivation, like already discovering that she likes MC somehow and see Lacey silence like a betrayal (you said you love him so much and yet you are still doing this to him).
- The lessons tone has a VERY weak explanation, make her send already prepared texts that are not written in the spur of the moment, the "evil persona" doesn't hold up, especially because she already planned to act like this, it doesn't look good for her.
- Make the drugs plan more obvious to Lacey, this is the second backstab, make them have a fall out so emotions run high, now it feels cold, calculated and utterly evil.
- Make her more apologetic in several occasions, such as the "trick" discussion MC has with her, she sound like a lecturer that dismisses MC pain as garbage, it is very difficult to see that she cares for him or as an emotionally intelligent person.
- The whole SA thing needs to be changed somehow, to mild curiosity to keep the built narrative alive, and at least asking before hand if lacey is ok or hurt (this could tie with her not being able to understand Lacey but still being somewhat concerned like when she asked if she liked sex in college etc.)
- Insert more inner dialogue where she accuses and judges herself harshly, a couple "I punish myself for that" do not give the correct gravitas to her feelings and make her sound fake as hell.
- Create a situation where she has to sacrifice something for the sake of the couple: Her friendship with Lacey, her social status, her friendship with MC or even her job.
This can instill the redemption to the readers, not forgiveness, but redemption, two different concepts.
And considering what is unearthed in act 2, that she used Lacey to help herself heal, this will probably be damning anyway.