Ren'Py Lustful Desires [v0.83.0] [Hyao]

[IvoryOwl]

I'm more and more convinced one of the major reason of Indie Dev Burnout / Abandonware,
Is this super unhealthy development environment, People Pressure + Nagging the dev for updates consistently, and complain at every step.

Game development is a Craft and Long time commitment, there'll always be highs and lows, even for Full time developers in Big studios.
There's no way a human can pump out 'good quality content' every month for many years straight.
This post really feels like Hyao's trying to educate "kids" of such gravity.
Funny he even needs to make a 'apology' this long in the first place lol.

Also, People really need to understand,
You are not part of the development (of a healthy game), at any capacity. No matter how much money you "invested" in.
Kinda like another form of Parasocial

There's no such thing as free cake in this industry; where there's money, there's expectations. Accepting cash from others almost always comes with strings attached, whether from your own community, your boss or your conscience telling you to give something in return to justify the money you're getting.

Contractual devs answer to their bosses, and these in turn answer to their investors and shareholders. No investor is going to keep money rolling without results, and no money equals no company. For Patreons and Kickstarters, the role of investor is replaced by that of the subscriber; even though they are far more lenient, at the end of the day they still want to see progress.

The idea that people aren't part the development process is not entirely true. Again, anything you accept from others usually comes with a catch, and it has long been an industry standard to reward those who financially support early-access games (whether on patreon or steam) with some influence over the game's development, even if it's just feedback.

The stress factor and unhealthy environment is the same whether you're self-employed or under contract, the only difference is that one allows you to get away with doing jack shit for 6 months and still get paid. It's better to disappoint a subscriber than an investor; subs won't end your job and most likely won't pursuit legal action against you either. Investors will absolutely ruin you.

You won't find any other job in the industry with the same "benefits", leniency and low entry requirement as a self-employed dev on a subscriber-based platforms. It's not parasocial to hold others accountable for their work and promises, not unless you're going to start calling investors "parasocial" to the companies they invested into, too... Without accountability, nothing would get done...

 

[vitrelladonella]

There's no such thing as free cake in this industry; where there's money, there's expectations. The moment you start accepting money from others you know there's going to be strings attached, whether from your own community or your conscience telling you you have to give something in return to justify the money you're getting.

Devs who work for a company answer to their managers and admins, and these in turn answer to the investors and shareholders. Without results, the investors could very well withdraw their support, forcing the company to go under. Especially if they have no other form of revenue. For Patreons and Kickstarters, the role of investor is replaced by that of the subscriber; even though they are far more lenient, at the end of the day they still want to see progress.

When you say people are not part of the development, that is not entirely true. One of the most common rewards for patreon, kickstarter and even early-access games is that you usually get to influence the game's development to a degree in exchange for your financial support. When people complain about "subscribers being spoiled and demanding" that's because it has been an industry standard to exchange money for influence over the project, even if it's just feedback.

If you're going to disappoint someone, better a subscriber than an investor. The latter will absolutely make you lose your job, whereas subs will rarely ever pursuit legal consequences even if you scam them... The stress factor and unhealthy environment is the same whether you're self-employed or under contract, the only difference is that one allows you to get away with doing jack shit for 6 months and still get paid. At that point, complaints are just a small price to pay for laziness or inefficiency.

You won't find any other job in the industry with the same "benefits", leniency and low entry requirement as Patreon.

I agree with some of your assessment of this industry, but I think your understanding of the relationship between content creator and subscriber is flawed.

You're not paying someone for a job when you subscribe to them, or to use branded language, Become a Patron. You are giving them money to continue to create their art. Unless the benefit is spelled out as part of the patronage, you are not signing a contract with the content creator to produce anything specific.

I think content creators set themselves up for failure through poor communication. If a content creator promises monthly updates, then fails to meet this deadline consistently, it's understandable for a subscriber to feel like they're not getting what they were promised. This content creator should consider another schedule for releasing content that works for what they can produce. Even better, consider not having a release schedule at all.

That said, the content creator only has a social obligation to release content on a schedule. They said subscribers should expect consistent content, but no contracts have been signed. By sending money towards a content creator, you're just supporting their art, however they choose to release it. Some of my favorite content creators release stuff inconsistently. Other content creators I subscribe to stick to a schedule they can consistently achieve. Either way they choose to deliver it, I'm just glad they can keep producing. Most artists don't have the option to make their art a full time job.

 

[IvoryOwl]

I agree with some of your assessment of this industry, but I think your understanding of the relationship between content creator and subscriber is flawed.

You're not paying someone for a job when you subscribe to them, or to use branded language, Become a Patron. You are giving them money to continue to create their art. Unless the benefit is spelled out as part of the patronage, you are not signing a contract with the content creator to produce anything specific.

I think content creators set themselves up for failure through poor communication. If a content creator promises monthly updates, then fails to meet this deadline consistently, it's understandable for a subscriber to feel like they're not getting what they were promised. This content creator should consider another schedule for releasing content that works for what they can produce. Even better, consider not having a release schedule at all.

That said, the content creator only has a social obligation to release content on a schedule. They said subscribers should expect consistent content, but no contracts have been signed. By sending money towards a content creator, you're just supporting their art, however they choose to release it. Some of my favorite content creators release stuff inconsistently. Other content creators I subscribe to stick to a schedule they can consistently achieve. Either way they choose to deliver it, I'm just glad they can keep producing. Most artists don't have the option to make their art a full time job.

And that is why I rarely support early-access games. With the exception of charity, when I give money I usually expect something in return; in this case the realization of a project that has a beginning and an end. I'm talking about videogames here, not art commissions. The lack of a contract means I can't hold that person accountable beyond their word, and in these times, their word doesn't mean jack to me. I've seen too many failures and scams over the years to simply trust randos with my money.

This is why I'd rather pay for the finished, complete product, which in the subscriber-platform is akin to seeing a unicorn. The system rewards holding projects indefinitely as WIPs because that also means indefinite pay (for the devs and platform). The people who support these are usually too lenient, forgetful or downright irresponsible with their money, and that is why subscriber-platforms as they are now will never be anything more than a mixed bag of hopeful dreams and a scammer's wet dream.

The subscriber system, simply put, is not conductive to success or seeing finished products. 5-10 years in development is a very long time to expect someone with no accountability to deliver what they initially intended to. Most excuses why you can't deliver something would never fly in an ordinary job, partially because in other jobs projects like these are usually a group effort coordinated by a manager with a deadline, and partially because you're being held accountable, with real consequences for failure.

When you're alone, it's that much easier to just call it quits because the only real person you're letting down is yourself and your subs, and the latter can be reduced to just a bunch of randos on the internet you have no real connection to beyond their money; there's no contract so they can't do anything beyond complaining. Whether you're a dev or consumer, sub-platforms are not your medium if you want finished products.

 

[nackedsnake]

There's no such thing as free cake in this industry; where there's money, there's expectations. Accepting cash from others almost always comes with strings attached, whether from your own community, your boss or your conscience telling you to give something in return to justify the money you're getting.

Contractual devs answer to their bosses, and these in turn answer to their investors and shareholders. No investor is going to keep money rolling without results, and no money equals no company. For Patreons and Kickstarters, the role of investor is replaced by that of the subscriber; even though they are far more lenient, at the end of the day they still want to see progress.

The idea that people aren't part the development process is not entirely true. Again, anything you accept from others usually comes with a catch, and it has long been an industry standard to reward those who financially support early-access games (whether on patreon or steam) with some influence over the game's development, even if it's just feedback.

The stress factor and unhealthy environment is the same whether you're self-employed or under contract, the only difference is that one allows you to get away with doing jack shit for 6 months and still get paid. It's better to disappoint a subscriber than an investor; subs won't end your job and most likely won't pursuit legal action against you either. Investors will absolutely ruin you.

You won't find any other job in the industry with the same "benefits", leniency and low entry requirement as a self-employed dev on a subscriber-based platforms. It's not parasocial to hold others accountable for their work and promises, not unless you're going to start calling investors "parasocial" to the companies they invested into, too... Without accountability, nothing would get done...

And that is why I rarely support early-access games. With the exception of charity, when I give money I usually expect something in return; in this case the realization of a project that has a beginning and an end. I'..........................

Pretty much what vitrelladonella said.
From what you said, I'm not sure you know how Patreon subscription actually works.
Or you've been poisoned by those who exploits such model to extract money (one of the worst thing they did is pay-walling contents behind subscription).

• No matter how you think you are "investing in these projects", You are not.
  • There're no contract signed to guarantee an agreed outcome. You might as well not getting anything you expected in return.
• No matter how you think you are part of the development cuz you gave the dev bunch of money, You are not.
  • You can give feedback, you might even influence the project.
  • BUT it's ultimately up to the Developers to make the call and do the work. If it's aligned with your interests, great. If it's not, bad luck for you.

It's "parasocial" cuz it's "delusional power fantasy". I don't even understand how you can compare these to Investment Industry.

Tho I agree with your "Without accountability, nothing would get done...". Everyone only acts with their own best interests.
The sad truth is we are not able to held anyone accountable in gaming industry due to lackin' regulations. (Sick of Big companies sell overpriced and unfinished games yet?)
And that's one of many reasons why there are so many Abandonware, besides "dev burnout due to unhealthy environment", "developing game is difficult, requires way more skills than dev can handle", etc.

And what's all this to do with Lustful Desires you ask?
It's just a porn game, if you don't like the state of the development, just move on with your life. You can't hold Hyao "accountable" for anything cuz there's never an agreement signed in the first place. Nor can he you.

 

[IvoryOwl]

Pretty much what vitrelladonella said.
From what you said, I'm not sure you know how Patreon subscription actually works. Or you've been poisoned by those who exploits such model to extract money.

• No matter how you think you are "investing in these projects", You are not.
  • There're no contract signed to guarantee an agreed outcome. You might as well not getting anything you expected in return.
• No matter how you think you are part of the development cuz you gave the dev bunch of money, You are not.
  • You can give feedback, you might even influence the project.
  • BUT it's ultimately up to the Developers to make the call and do the work. If it's aligned with your interests, great. If it's not, bad luck for you.

It's "parasocial" cuz it's "delusional power fantasy". I don't even understand how you can compare these to investing industry.

Tho I agree with your "Without accountability, nothing would get done...". Everyone only acts with their own best interests.
The sad truth is we are not able to held anyone accountable in gaming industry due to lackin' regulations. (Sick of Big companies sell overpriced and unfinished games yet?)
And that's one of many reasons why there are so many Abandonware, besides "dev burnout due to unhealthy environment", "developing game is difficult, requires way more skills than dev can handle", etc.

And what's all this to do with Lustful Desires you ask?
It's just a porn game, if you don't like the state of the development, just move on with your life. You can't hold Hyao "accountable" for anything cuz there's never an agreement signed in the first place.

I don't care about yours or anyone elses' definition of what it means to give money in Patreon. For the record I'm not mad at you or anything (because I know my tone and wording might get mistaken as such). It's just that, in my mind, if -I- give them money then in my purview -I'm- investing in that project. You and others might not agree with it, but that's how I see it. I don't usually give money away out of the goodness of my heart; if I give my financial support, then I expect something in return.

I know that's not how most people see it, and I know I cannot hold the dev accountable because there's no contract. And that is precisely why I don't support these devs on Patreon. I want to see progress that culminates in a finished product, and I simply don't believe these platforms to be a good medium for that. With no way to hold these people accountable, I might as well be throwing money away on a gamble that might or might not pan out as intended. It's simply not for me.

It's way more advantageous for me to buy the finished product when it comes out. If ever. AAA games are very expensive nowadays, yet that would be nothing compared to 5-15$ a month for 5-10 years to support these devs. That's an insane amount of money to throw at a gamble project. 5$ a month adds up to 60$ a year. I could buy a whole ass game with that money, heck, I could pay PS or Xbox 20$ a month and I'd instantly gain access to a whole library of games! Investing in Patreon just sounds like a bad idea comparatively.

In other words, from a consumer's perspective, Patreon just isn't for me. I have no idea what is going on with this dev or his project, I just stumbled upon this thread, saw what people were saying and decided to pitch in my 2 cents... about stuff in general.

 

[alt catboy]

so many notifications from this thread yet no update
y'all this is a porn games site not twitter

 

[vitrelladonella]

I personally don't care about yours or anyone elses' definition of what it means to give money in Patreon. For the record I'm not mad at you or anything (because I know my tone and wording might get mistaken as such). It's just that, in my mind, if -I- give them money then in my purview -I'm- investing in that project. You and others might not agree with it, but that's how I see it. I don't usually give money away out of the goodness of my heart; if I give my financial support, then I expect something in return.

I know that's not how most people see it, I also know I cannot hold the dev accountable because I have no contract with them. And that is precisely why I don't support these devs on Patreon. I want to see progress that culminates in a finished product, and I simply don't believe these platforms to be a good medium for that. With no way to hold these people accountable, I might as well be throwing money away on a gamble that might pan out in a finished product. It's simply not for me.

It's way more advantageous for me to just buy the finished the product when it comes out. If ever. AAA games are very expensive nowadays, yet that would be nothing compared to 5-15$ a month for 5-10 years to support these devs. That's an insane amount of money to throw at a gamble project. 5$ a month adds up to 60$ a year. I could buy a whole ass game with that money, heck, I could pay PS or Xbox 20$ a month and I'd instantly gain access to a whole library of games! Investing in Patreon, just sounds like a bad idea comparatively.

In other words, from a consumer's perspective, Patreon just isn't for me. I have no idea what is going on with this dev or his project, I just stumbled upon this thread, saw what people were saying and decided to pitch in my 2 cents... about stuff in general.

I hear you on all this! There's another project I supported on and off for about two years. I really wanted to help the developers make the game cuz it was high quality and so My Shit. After a couple delayed updates and some undelivered promises, I stopped subscribing to them entirely. The project is still progressing, just very slowly, and their communication hasn't gotten any better. It does feel like they're milking the Patreon for as long as they can.

I haven't given up on the subscription platform entirely, but I am pretty picky about who I send my money to. It's mostly podcasts and artist I like a lot. I think subscription services do a lot of good for artists in general, but there's bad actors out there for sure.

Thanks for hopping in and having a conversation about this! You've explained your opinions well without being nasty. It's hard to find that on these forums!

 

[Polarthief]

Big sadge, Hyao didn't get the update in the weekend. Hopefully tomorrow
Edit: SURELY. TOMORROW. RIGHT?

 

[kanon09]

Probably next week or next month at this rate, he's had 2 months+ of time to do this, probably something is going on in his life.

 

[Polarthief]

Probably next week or next month at this rate, he's had 2 months+ of time to do this, probably something is going on in his life.

I doubt next month, but I'm actually curious what's gonna happen for it. Maybe he'll do all his content for this month and all guest content for next month?

 

[Sant3224]

I doubt next month, but I'm actually curious what's gonna happen for it. Maybe he'll do all his content for this month and all guest content for next month?

Either that, or he'll release 2 patreon updates in a month

 

[Bluestorm99]

Either that, or he'll release 2 patreon updates in a month

Seeing that they haven't been able to finish their update on time, I doubt that.

 

[hatass]

Pretty much what vitrelladonella said.
From what you said, I'm not sure you know how Patreon subscription actually works.
Or you've been poisoned by those who exploits such model to extract money (one of the worst thing they did is pay-walling contents behind subscription).

• No matter how you think you are "investing in these projects", You are not.
  • There're no contract signed to guarantee an agreed outcome. You might as well not getting anything you expected in return.
• No matter how you think you are part of the development cuz you gave the dev bunch of money, You are not.
  • You can give feedback, you might even influence the project.
  • BUT it's ultimately up to the Developers to make the call and do the work. If it's aligned with your interests, great. If it's not, bad luck for you.

It's "parasocial" cuz it's "delusional power fantasy". I don't even understand how you can compare these to Investment Industry.

Tho I agree with your "Without accountability, nothing would get done...". Everyone only acts with their own best interests.
The sad truth is we are not able to held anyone accountable in gaming industry due to lackin' regulations. (Sick of Big companies sell overpriced and unfinished games yet?)
And that's one of many reasons why there are so many Abandonware, besides "dev burnout due to unhealthy environment", "developing game is difficult, requires way more skills than dev can handle", etc.

And what's all this to do with Lustful Desires you ask?
It's just a porn game, if you don't like the state of the development, just move on with your life. You can't hold Hyao "accountable" for anything cuz there's never an agreement signed in the first place. Nor can he you.

Nobody here is trying to sue Hyao for breach of contract. But there's a social contract between the developers and the patreons to fulfill promises to a certain reasonable degree. Funnily enough the degree is more or less set by the developers. Hyao set the deadline himself and then failed to meet it repeatedly. In accordance with social contract some people point it out and complain about it. This is great because it tells others whether to support the project or any projects by that developer, hopefully impacting their bottom line enough for them to correct their behavior or at least prevent people from wasting money on the project.

I think you should just move on with your life and keep playing the game without complaint if you're okay with the situation. Just accept that not everyone is and rightfully so.

 

[Polarthief]

--there's a social contract between the developers and the patreons to fulfill promises to a certain reasonable degree. Funnily enough the degree is more or less set by the developers. Hyao set the deadline himself and then failed to meet it repeatedly.

In Hyao's defense, this is the first time he's legitimately missed a deadline he set. Further in his defense, here's his exact wording:

I think I should be able to release the update this week, most likely sometime during the weekend.

There's no *hard* confirmation (unlike Lilith's Throne dev) that it would be on the weekend, so, yeah. He has given us a heads up when a month wouldn't have an update (so you could pause Patreon payments for a month if you wanted), unlike some other devs (LT as already mentioned for basically every fucking month, or the OnlyIHaveSkillls dev who did it twice). Plus like, $1.

I'm not trying to white knight Hyao here, but honestly, I'm willing to give him the BOTD provided he actually follows through on this update being as good as he's made it out to be.

 

[hatass]

In Hyao's defense, this is the first time he's legitimately missed a deadline he set. Further in his defense, here's his exact wording:



There's no *hard* confirmation (unlike Lilith's Throne dev) that it would be on the weekend, so, yeah. He has given us a heads up when a month wouldn't have an update (so you could pause Patreon payments for a month if you wanted), unlike some other devs (LT as already mentioned for basically every fucking month, or the OnlyIHaveSkillls dev who did it twice). Plus like, $1.

I'm not trying to white knight Hyao here, but honestly, I'm willing to give him the BOTD provided he actually follows through on this update being as good as he's made it out to be.

Right. My main complaint was actually the content in the last X releases and not this particular deadline. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Polarthief]

My main complaint was actually the content in the last X releases and not this particular deadline.

Previous releases were late as well? I don't remember that. Lacking in content? Absolutely, but I don't remember anything about him missing deadlines...

 

[Thanh12]

Version 0.65 is out now.

 

[ppadjake]

Update 0.65

I apologize for being so late with this one.

It was finished earlier, but I did a mess with one event, so most of today we were trying to fix everything so it won't cause problems. I hope we didn't overlook anything.

The update is roughly 40k+ words. It's a big one. One part of it is the Bareshade assembly event, the other is expanding the Skullbreaker camp. Plus some small things here or there. Plenty of new other things as well - new cg, new sprites, new music.

Without further ado...



PART 1: CONTENT

Bareshade Fair

Stroll around

• Tao (maybe) in trouble (Req: Tao invited to fair, bandits in town)

Official meeting

• Main event. Finish the necessary conversations with the guests for the option to be available during the fair.

Bareshade

Bernard:

• Assembly (Req: Werewolf event finished, Orc event finished, Lizard invited to the fair, Tao invited to the fair, NC guards invited to the fair)

Assembly

You need to talk with those people to progress the event further during conversation with Bernard.

• Ruins: Roushk
• Northcrest Outpost: Everett
• Junkyard: Tao
• River's Bank: Feliar (Req: Rather obvious)
• Iron Blood Camp: Korg (Req: Stood against Mirage, Groth visited the fair)
• Iron Blood Camp: Orgram (Req: Talk with Korg finished)

Northcrest

Dulrig:

• Conversation: Crawler hide

Skullbreaker Horde Camp

Entrance:

• Orc Slut (Req: Respect -70, 'Reward' talk done if picked that option during encounter with Mirage)
• Warm welcome (Req: Respect -25)

Camp:

• Naked MC (Req: No clothes. Scene with Respect -15)
• Explore Camp (Random events)

Outdoor prisoners (MC Male top content):

• Blowjob from the green orc
• Blowjob from the red orc?
• Double blowjob from the ogre

Khalgor's Tent

Entrance (MC Bottom content):

• Khalgor's Walk (Req: Respect -70, Orc Slut event done, once per day)
• 3 scenes + 1 Fem MC scene + 1 wolbauk scene

Conversation:

• Mirage's promised reward (Req: 'Khalgor' picked as a reward, 'Mirage' conversation done)
• Place to stay (Req: Respect -10 or 10+)
• Prisoners (Req: Korg not in Orgram's tribe, Respect -20 or 20+, Outdoor prisoners done 5+ times)

'Tent'

• Entrance
• Rest
• No rest for the wicked (If sleep was interrupted. Results depends on the players Respect)

Jungle

Sabal Encounter:

• Escape variant – Escape has now four steps. You can pass each one of them which would take you to safety. A failed escape leads to a choice to continue a fight or trying escape again.

Battlefield

Check the surroundings:

• Two new events (Encounter, Item Find)
• New Enemy: Gryphon

New Items

• Gryphon's Feather
• Gryphon's Arrow
• Crawler Armored Chausses
• Horde's Necklace

PART 2: VISUAL/AUDIO ASPECTS

Narram’s addition:

• CG: Gunnar / MC
• Enemy: Gryphon

StanG's addition:

• Enemy: Pair Bandit

Burb's addition:

• New Icons: Warding Amulet, Traveler's Set, Poisonous Arrows, Sparking Arrows, Gryphon's Arrows, Gryphon's Feather, Crawler Armored Chausses, Horde's Necklace
• Updated Icons: Antique Coin, Arrows

Civ's addition:

• Music: Endurance (Battle Theme music for boss fights)

 

[Polarthief]

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[Idkbro25]

Merry Christmas in April ya bastards <3

Thanks <3