Male sluttiness vs. Female sluttiness

[Pharan]

I have some issues with the claims put forth by Dario Nardio, there are some inconsistencies when compared to the peer-reviewed paper you posted. In these points, more specifically:

First, it's important to note that the part about animals (mammals) does not translate to humans. He didn't actually outright claim that, but by adding that to the mix, specially with a subsequent "For men, it also..." it might lead others to believe that could be the case; and according to that scientific paper you cited there's nothing that supports the translation from animal to human of those specific features: "aggression, territorial competition and dominance with other males. It bonds males to mates and children".

I read the entirety of the sections 8(AVP in Male Humans), 10(Translation from animals to humans) and 11(Conclusions). Aside from "partner recognition" and "enhancing memory" I didn't see anything that supports "sexual arousal, courtship behavior, monogamy, pair bonding and mate guarding".

I also didn't see anything specifically about feeling "separate, with dampened emotional responses and more “sensible” or “reasonable” behavior.". There was evidence for enhancement of encoding male facial expression and sexual cues, as well as negative response to neutral facial expressions. The only part that came close to asserting that was: "AVP increases cooperative behavior in men in response to a cooperative gesture in a social experiment "

As for "Depressed people also have higher vasopressin.". It does say in the (11)Conclusion that:

"Both the animal and human studies suggest that AVP is involved in the development of depression and anxiety disorders"

And in (10)Stress:

"There is already evidence that male PTSD patients have high plasma AVP, aggression, depression and anxiety levels "

So that apparently stands true.


Anyway, maybe I missed something or there are other sources from which he drew those conclusions?


Also, If I'm correct so far, then based on your source this would be a more accurate assertion:

"It makes NON-HUMAN males possessive, controlling, and highly emotionally receptive to actions that can take his mate away, such as his partner associating with other males without him. It binds males to be emotionally bonded with their partner so that they will stick with them through difficult situations such as pregnancy for the benefit of the offspring."

Note that i'm not asserting that humans don't or can't feel like that, but just that while hormones have some influence, it is nowhere as deterministic as it is in non-human animal behavior.


What would be the difference in practical terms? I'm still not "receptive" to many of those traits you claimed males always are.

"First, it's important to note that the part about animals (mammals) does not translate to humans."

That isn't even a true statement though. Humans are mammals. We have like a 98% overlap in DNA to chimpanzees and they exhibit these same behaviors. It's very possible it can and does translate to humans and there simply needs more research to be done.

The last couple decades of research on this topic has confirmed it for mammals, but not fully on humans since we don't just act on instincts. But indication dictates it's very likely the case that we feel these same emotional responses for the very same reasons if we continue delving into it. You can find lots of articles behind pay-walls on this topic if you really wanted too. I just found you something free that I was able to quickly find.

But, considering that it has been confirmed for mammals, and that humans are mammals, and that male humans from all cultures whether they are from the west, Japan, or wherever else exhibit these same kinds of behavioral symptoms it's far easier to posit that Vasopressin does have an affect on these behaviors we're describing on this thread and that these behaviors are indeed coming from a BIOLOGICAL source and not from conceptualizations such as "culture" or "society".

It might not be 100% confirmed yet but I'm definitely going to believe the decades of research on this topic that is like 80+% of the way there over vague cultural or societal statements that have no real scientific backing. Wouldn't you?

"What would be the difference in practical terms?"

Well I mean you have the word NTR in your name right? I think that just might be one practical difference, so I'm personally not sure why you think you are not "receptive" to it? Isn't that in itself receptive?

No where in this thread did I say vasopressin or humans were deterministic and were going to act on those instincts, nor did I say that they should. But at the same time if someone felt jealously or some other possessive emotion when they get "cucked" I don't think it's unreasonable to expect people to be able to understand and empathize with this kind of human reaction because it likely comes from a natural biological process and not just from them "being a bigot". Right?

I simply gave an explanation using a neuroscience backing as to why there is flack against NTR and differences to "male vs female sluttiness" which was the entire purpose of the thread.

And I consider my argument to be considerably more reasonable than the ubiquitous statements that seem to relate to these opinions as just being some kind of "phase" that society is currently going through and people will eventually "just stop being bigots".

Personally, I'm a pragmatist. You need to be realistic about the problems you are trying to solve. You cannot have a legitimate conversation about this topic without trying to truly understand why the topic happens in the first place. In my opinion, this is not just a "phase" society is going through and these thoughts and behaviors simply will never stop existing and so it would be far better and healthier for people within society to simply be cognizant of why these opinions exist irregardless of whether you like their outcomes because that level of empathy can go a long ways to making society better. Otherwise, how would you steer society away from these animalistic instincts if you can't empathize and understand them in the first place?

Anyways, appreciate the reply. I found the conversation fun. Thanks.

Edit: Oh and apparently that Dario guys source was this journal "Bulletin of Psychological Type, Volume 26, No 4, 2003 ". I haven't personally checked it.

 

[obibobi]

Pharans right, a woman is considered a slut for sleeping around the same way a man is considered a loser for not getting any.

We have massively different breeding functions, it's not surprising that we are judged differently based on those roles. A woman wants to settle with a strong, protective man who has lots of resources because she can only roughly one child a year. A man wants to fuck as many women, favoring those that are young and fertile because all it takes for him is the ability to ejaculate. These roles may not be needed anymore in an era where child birth is nowhere near as risky but our minds are still set for a period when we lived in caves, fought off wolves and having as many healthy children before you died in your late 30's if you where lucky was necessary for the species to survive.

 

[megaplayboy10k]

Pharans right, a woman is considered a slut for sleeping around the same way a man is considered a loser for not getting any.

We have massively different breeding functions, it's not surprising that we are judged differently based on those roles. A woman wants to settle with a strong, protective man who has lots of resources because she can only roughly one child a year. A man wants to fuck as many women, favoring those that are young and fertile because all it takes for him is the ability to ejaculate. These roles may not be needed anymore in an era where child birth is nowhere near as risky but our minds are still set for a period when we lived in caves, fought off wolves and having as many healthy children before you died in your late 30's if you where lucky was necessary for the species to survive.

But this varies considerably by culture, and to me seems more a product of cultural conditioning. Both male and female promiscuity trigger a "natural" jealousy response by a partner who becomes aware of said promiscuity. And there's wide variance by culture and individually in what might be considered "slutty"--one might find one partner's discovery simply that his girlfriend isn't a virgin to be outrageous, while another might shrug at the revelation that she has slept with over 100 men. I would be shocked to date a woman over 25 who remained a virgin! If you dated a woman who was 40, who was divorced after 10 years of marriage and had 5 long term relationships prior to that lasting an average of 2 years each, and briefly between 16 and 21 dated/slept with about 10 guys over a 5 year period, would you think she was a "slut"?

 

[Ataios]

Personally I think, the term "slutty" requires more the promiscuity. Especially female sluttyness is strongly connected to submissive behavior and often dependence on another. A powerful woman with an army of callboys is never a slut, the trophy wife of a powerful man is almost always a slut.

Male sluttyness is a bit more subtle, but mostly I'd apply the term to men pretending to understand women in order to get them into bed, often, but not always male feminists. Basically any man, who's lust is stronger than his pride.

 

[Zippity]

I think a big part of it also depends on whether the player tends to imagine themself as the main character or whether they think of themselves more as a spectator or puppeteer. I know in my case if the MC is male I just always unconsciously imagine myself as the MC so I'm emotionally invested in whatever is happening to the MC. That's probably also why I strongly prefer playing games where the MC is male. Would be curious to know whether the reverse is true for female players.

The same is not true for me if the MC is female. I think of myself as a spectator or puppeteer in that case. So I have no problem at all playing as a female where she's being cheated on, raped, degraded, whatever because it's not happening to "me". If I'm playing a male character though I have the same type of reaction that I would if that was actually happening to me.

So I have a negative reaction to NTR playing as a male unless I was intentionally trying to see those scenes, but I have no negative reaction to the exact same type of scene if I'm playing as a female. In my case this is only an issue for games. I can watch porn where the main character is a guy and he's being cheated on and it doens't bother me at all because if I'm watching TV or a movie I never imagine myself as the MC, always just a spectator.

There is always an element of perspective depending on the reader/player, and that perspective can sometimes be effected by how the story is told and/or presented... The levels of immersion can be different from person to person and from story to story...

For me, in any Visual Novel, I always prefer a level of immersion, regardless of the sex of the protagonist... It's not about the ability to relate to the protagonist, but about becoming immersed in their struggles, their goals, their plight, and overall their life as they live through the story... The whole point of having story at all is to add an element of immersion... Without good story telling, you might as well just make a pure game of it, where story matters little (or not at all) and it's just about opening up new content...

You don't enjoy watching a movie or reading novels or watching a TV program based purely on your ability to relate to the main character (MC)… Sure relatability can help add to the immersion, but it's not always the key element... The same can apply to Erotic/Adult themed Visual Novels/Games that have any form of story telling added in... For me and many others, immersion is a key element in story telling... And really is the mainstay in Choice based Story Telling, where the whole point of presenting choices is to allow more immersive control over the direction and outcome of a story... Some developers do well at it, while many others do a poor job of it...

It really just boils down to the VN/Game in question... And what type of personalities the developers are... Add in the developers skill and experience with story telling, ability to be creative, and reasons for developing in the first place... In the end, it shouldn't matter what sex the protagonist is, if the developer excels in their ability to craft an immersive story based VN/Game... Yet we see the market flooded with developers with little to no experience who may excel in one or more aspects (i.e. story telling, graphics design, game play mechanics, coding, etc.) while not being so good with others... Pure motivation isn't enough to excel, without the skills and talent...

NTR, is a whole other subject I REALY would like NOT to get into again, in yet another thread... That is a whole other subject that has a tendency to derail, and get off the main subject, in threads, where it is even brought up...

Zip

 

[obibobi]

But this varies considerably by culture, and to me seems more a product of cultural conditioning. Both male and female promiscuity trigger a "natural" jealousy response by a partner who becomes aware of said promiscuity. And there's wide variance by culture and individually in what might be considered "slutty"--one might find one partner's discovery simply that his girlfriend isn't a virgin to be outrageous, while another might shrug at the revelation that she has slept with over 100 men. I would be shocked to date a woman over 25 who remained a virgin! If you dated a woman who was 40, who was divorced after 10 years of marriage and had 5 long term relationships prior to that lasting an average of 2 years each, and briefly between 16 and 21 dated/slept with about 10 guys over a 5 year period, would you think she was a "slut"?

It doesn't vary biologically. It varies culturally. It wasn't biology that changed in the west, it was culture. Men prefer virgins but that has never been a deal breaker in nature. It's politically incorrect to say you prefer women who don't sleep around, you and I both know that if a male celebrity or politician said he preferred women with as little sexual partners as possible that would be the end of career. But women know it's not a good thing, if you've ever been around girls in a fight they will call each other sluts like the word has closing down sale whether it makes sense or not.

As for finding men who would shrug at a woman sleeping with a 100 men, there are billions of people in the world, you can find men that get turned on by having their balls stepped on. For the typical men that's a massive turn off but you forget men are men, we PREFER women to be a certain way but we will stick our dick in almost anything.

10 guys from 16 to 21, yeah that womans a slut, wouldn't call her a slut if she told me that but I'd think it. Wouldn't think the same of a dude, a guy tries to get it, a woman gives it away.

 

[megaplayboy10k]

It doesn't vary biologically. It varies culturally. It wasn't biology that changed in the west, it was culture. Men prefer virgins but that has never been a deal breaker in nature. It's politically incorrect to say you prefer women who don't sleep around, you and I both know that if a male celebrity or politician said he preferred women with as little sexual partners as possible that would be the end of career. But women know it's not a good thing, if you've ever been around girls in a fight they will call each other sluts like the word has closing down sale whether it makes sense or not.

As for finding men who would shrug at a woman sleeping with a 100 men, there are billions of people in the world, you can find men that get turned on by having their balls stepped on. For the typical men that's a massive turn off but you forget men are men, we PREFER women to be a certain way but we will stick our dick in almost anything.

10 guys from 16 to 21, yeah that womans a slut, wouldn't call her a slut if she told me that but I'd think it. Wouldn't think the same of a dude, a guy tries to get it, a woman gives it away.

Your last part--seriously? That's 2 partners per year. How is that remotely "slutty"? Guys that age are sticking it in any willing hole. That's a woman who had a series of boyfriends for 5 years. Not one who went into the club bathroom with a different guy every weekend.

 

[215303j]

You can't always equate real life relevancy to what happens in a majority of these erotic/porn themed VN/Games... 9 times out of 10 these things are more about the fantasy of a situation rather then the reality of it..

I get what you are saying, but I think in the majority of cases it is either poor storytelling or just laziness.
For me, realism adds a lot to a story. For unbelievable or uninteresting stories I can just start any random porn movie.

It might not be 100% confirmed yet but I'm definitely going to believe the decades of research on this topic that is like 80+% of the way there over vague cultural or societal statements that have no real scientific backing. Wouldn't you?

I simply gave an explanation using a neuroscience backing as to why there is flack against NTR and differences to "male vs female sluttiness" which was the entire purpose of the thread.

And I consider my argument to be considerably more reasonable than the ubiquitous statements that seem to relate to these opinions as just being some kind of "phase" that society is currently going through and people will eventually "just stop being bigots".

First of all, I really like and appreciate your viewpoint and input in this thread, thanks for that!

One problem that I have, however, is that despite that all humans on this planet have very similar DNA, there are and were very diverse practices regarding sexuality and marriage. There are cultures which practice polygamy, there are cultures which practice free sex / open relationships, there are cultures which are very strictly monogamous, there are cultures which encourage swapping etc. In some cultures rape was more or less acceptable, in others not. In some cultures prostitution was sacred, in others cursed. Etc. etc.

So apparently culture does have a huge impact.

The problem with Western culture of the last 50 years is that it changed a lot and in some ways more than people like to admit.
One of these changes is the economic and sexual liberation of women, as they are not dependent on a man to survive anymore.

It's politically incorrect to say you prefer women who don't sleep around, you and I both know that if a male celebrity or politician said he preferred women with as little sexual partners as possible that would be the end of career.

Is it, really?
Here in Europe I'd say it's not an issue, but in the USA I can imagine a conservative Christian candidate would gain a lot of votes by such a statement.

 

[W65]

Is it, really?
Here in Europe I'd say it's not an issue, but in the USA I can imagine a conservative Christian candidate would gain a lot of votes by such a statement.

In the USA the reaction would be more "why is a politician talking about his or her sex life at all?"

It might be asked on an alternative show that a relatively hip politician decided to speak on, and it probably wouldn't make the mainstream news unless they said something really controversial.

It might get danced around on a morning show if there had been a lot of talk about it recently in other media.

If it did come up, I sorta doubt anyone would care, as long as it was a "my personal preference is for X" thing and not a "it's immoral for the other gender to do X" or "leave the other gender alone about X" thing. The left would loudly and fulminantly hate the former, and the right would quietly and seethingly hate the latter.

(Naturally if the pol said "my personal preference is for X and by the way I'm a homosexual" it'd be a different story.)

 

[Zippity]

Is it, really?
Here in Europe I'd say it's not an issue, but in the USA I can imagine a conservative Christian candidate would gain a lot of votes by such a statement.

You have to remember that every country is different, depending on it's population, it's age, it's surroundings, it's belief systems, etc... I don't want to get into any form of political conversation, because those tend to become nothing but emotional fighting rinks... But in the U.S.A. right now, we're kind of in a polarized state of being, politically... The press tends to jump all over sensationalist type subjects, mostly in order to boost ratings and make money... So often times, when a politician speaks about anything regarding their sexual preferences and promiscuity, the press jumps all over it, blows it out of proportion and in some cases takes sides... The USA came into being as a rather conservative and prudish entity... Even though over time that has formed into something more open minded, culturally diverse, and modern in it's outlook... You still have that element that refuses to get with the times, is more close minded, and in a constant state of trying to push their own belief system and form of principles on everyone else, even if they don't want it... So you get some subjects most politicians tend to avoid talking about, more out of fear of loosing votes then anything else...

Europe is older, and is more experienced at many of the extremes, and so forth, so of course it's a bit more open to discussing stuff, that in some other countries and cultures might be consider too open or extreme... We live in a diverse world... And I firmly believe it would take an alien invasion force, that could easily wipe us away, that forced it's will on us all to get along, before people as a whole, would be more willing to live and let live... But that's a whole other subject...

Zip

 

[megaplayboy10k]

I'd make a few observations. First, promiscuity(being sexually active with a series of short term and long term partners) and infidelity (being disloyal to a partner or partners) are two different things. Second, the "sluttiness" of a woman is determined less by her number or variety of experiences than by the relative sexual insecurity of the man calling her a slut. Men tend to worry that they do not measure up well against other men as lovers; that someone who has enjoyed the company of others is somehow diminished in value(which makes no sense; if someone is attractive and a good lover, those qualities aren't affected by the number of lovers); or that someone will be less loyal if they believe that they have a lot of options. The only possibly legitimate and fair concern might be if one is looking for an LTR and a woman has had mostly brief relationships.
Paradoxically, men want a women who is broadly attractive and desirable, who is a superb lover, and who is self confident and adventurous. But not a "slut"! To me, slut-shaming seems like a pretty pervasive, largely but not entirely patriarchal scheme to control female sexuality for male benefit.

 

[215303j]

And I firmly believe it would take an alien invasion force, that could easily wipe us away, that forced it's will on us all to get along, before people as a whole, would be more willing to live and let live... But that's a whole other subject...

Either aliens or communists...

Interestingly, at least in the USSR, I think sexual norms were rather conservative.

I wonder if Marx or Lenin had any "official" thoughts on the matter of sexuality...


One could argue that, before socialism, beautiful women were in the hands of the capitalists, so after the revolution they should belong to the state and be made freely available to the workers!

I'd make a few observations. First, promiscuity(being sexually active with a series of short term and long term partners) and infidelity (being disloyal to a partner or partners) are two different things. Second, the "sluttiness" of a woman is determined less by her number or variety of experiences than by the relative sexual insecurity of the man calling her a slut. Men tend to worry that they do not measure up well against other men as lovers; that someone who has enjoyed the company of others is somehow diminished in value(which makes no sense; if someone is attractive and a good lover, those qualities aren't affected by the number of lovers); or that someone will be less loyal if they believe that they have a lot of options. The only possibly legitimate and fair concern might be if one is looking for an LTR and a woman has had mostly brief relationships.

Paradoxically, men want a women who is broadly attractive and desirable, who is a superb lover, and who is self confident and adventurous. But not a "slut"! To me, slut-shaming seems like a pretty pervasive, largely but not entirely patriarchal scheme to control female sexuality for male benefit.

I don't agree with several things here. I think that promiscuity is rather the result of a certain worldview or (lack of) certain morals. Thus it depends on the potential partner whether he/she can live with that worldview or morals. If a person likes the idea of remaining a virgin until marriage, then failure of this goal is, well, a failure. Although it may be excusable in certain situations. But if a person does not like this idea, then it doesn't matter that much. I think that both partners should have at least similar ideas about this, otherwise there will likely be some difficulties in the future relationship.

I also do instinctively think that if a person chose to remain a virgin until marriage, the likelyhood of cheating is also reduced because that person already demonstrated self-control. Lack of self-control and lack of morals are I think the biggest reasons for cheating. Note that I'm talking about cheating and not about swinging, which is something else.

I also think that it is very much possible for a woman (or man) to be attractive, desirable, self confident and adventurous, but still a virgin at 30. The potential problem is with the "superb lover" as he/she will obviously lack experience and possibly also sexual compatibility as there is no good way to test it.

As for measuring up against other males, I guess that's a fair point, although every woman has different preferences, so even if objectively you are not the perfect lover, you may be the perfect match for a specific woman. But of course being good sex partners is again something different from being good life companions or good parents.

As you may guess from above, I prefer virgins over sluts. And to me, that applies to males and females. But that's just my preference, I definately don't believe in slut-shaming.

Part of the "problem" is in the grey area. I think we can agree that a virgin (not purely in the technical sense) can't be a slut, and that somebody who has sex with a different random person every day is a slut. However above mentioned example of a 40 year old woman who got divorced after 10 years of marriage and had some various sex partners before marriage already sparks a debate. I guess that remains up to the beholder, as well as it is depending on the circumstances. Statistics say that people who get divorced once have a higher likelyhood of a second divorce and the likelyhood of further divorces goes further up as well. However that alone does not make a slut. Maybe all these divorces were fully caused by the other party. Unlikely but I guess possible...

 

[megaplayboy10k]

I'm just going to say that the whole thrust of the anti-slut-shaming movement is that women shouldn't be called "sluts" at all. They are exercising their agency as human beings who own their own sexuality in the same way that men are, and no double standard is justifiable from the standpoint of egalitarian sensibilities. If they want to be called sluts during sexual roleplay, fine, knock yourselves out.
But this is a deeply entrenched bias/sensibility which will probably take generations if not centuries to fully bring down.

 

[IhaveNoPornAndIMustFap]

1. Junk Sciene.
Any science explaining that human males are somehow more possessive or jealous than women should immediately be dismissed as junk science that would only be perpetuated in ideologically retarded gender studies courses. It's simply not true. Cultures do have different levels for what's socially acceptable or expected "jealousy behavior" for the individual genders, but please point me to the culture where the women don't give a fuck about her husband fucking other girls. Even in actually polygamous cultures (certain islamic countries) women threaten emasculation at the mere suggestion of getting another wife, and if they find themselves in such a harem, are highly competitive over their masters affection. On the other hand, virtually every single culture on earth has prostitution where many men do not mind sharing a single prostitute - a stable polyandric constellation.

2. Slut Shaming.
The thing about sluts is not that men use it as an insult. It's women who use it as an insult to other women. Men *LIKE* sluts. Want proof? Look at any porn ever. Are these virgins? Or are they displayed in a way to accentuate their sluttiness instead? Men don't exactly "respect" sluts (but then men overall do not respect women the same way women respect men) and a lot of men wouldn't marry sluts, worrying about the insult to their "honor" when everyone else already had a turn on the town bicycle. But men do like sluts, they generally feel sexually attracted to them, and the trashier and sluttier, the hotter. It's women who do most of the "slut shaming", and research has shown that it is mostly related to social status - lower status women get more slut shamed than higher status women, and actual sexual promiscuity is not a factor at all. Somehow blaming men for "slut shaming" is disingenuous and retarded, but then it's feminists, so what else is new.

3. Trigger warning: Incel talking point.
Research shows that the likelihood of a woman to initiate divorce in marriage is inversely proportional to the number of pre-marital sex partners she's had. No such correlation exists in men. It is essentially unwise for a man to plan for a long term relationship with a woman who habitually discards her men in search of a better one, instead of resolving relationship problems. So yeah there are good, rational reasons for not wanting to wife up a slut, even if you don't give a shit about your "honor".

4. Social proof, sexy son hypothesis and mate pre-selection.
Women, much more so than men, are herd animals. If 100 other women have chosen to get plowed by a dude, there's nothing wrong with giving him a tumble, either. On the other hand if a guy who actually tries hard never gets laid, there must be something wrong with him. This is why incels aren't getting laid - They value getting laid, yet don't manage it, and that combination makes them spiral to complete unfuckableness. On the other hand, men give very few fucks about what other men think is attractive. Virgin or bimbo, they may recognize if someone is more conventionally attractive even better than women do, but if they are personally attracted to a person, their friends will not be able to talk them out of it by telling him that she's really unattractive. This is a huge difference in how the genders behave, and backed up by tons of research.

5. NTR vs Male MCs
I quickly played through the game "Best of Intentions" in the OP and the """18""" year old main girl drinks pee from tap in the opening prologue. I don't really see any way to defend this kind of ultra trashy writing. But the OPs question is "Why is it ok for the MC to rail an entire stable of hoes (mostly comprised of his family members) but not ok for any of his hoes to get any on the side, ever, even before they ever met the MC" To this I will simply answer: Pimpin' ain't easy. Not everyone is cut out for it, and the people who aren't, complain about such things.

As for the type of NTR I actually do detest, I believe Bully is the best (most over the top) example. It's not only racist as fuck, fem-dommy which I find cringe, it is - even worse imo - focussing on the feelings of a guy. In porn. You have porn that focusses on the feelings of a guy. DUDE. That is so gay, you can blow the entire football team and be less gay than this. Traps have nothing on it, whatever level of gay they are at, they're not as gay as this shit. Gays trying to breed each others butts with the AIDS isn't as gay as focussing on the feelings of the guy in porn. I don't give a shit about guys in porn, they're only there to supply a dick to a scene where a girl gets impaled on it. I don't want to hear about the inner turmoil of some cuck any more than I want to hear about the inner turmoil of the Father in DMD when he's lusting after his busty Daughter. Pack that disgusting shit in.

So I believe that a lot of hatred for NTR is hatred for the "Bully" thing, that gets mixed in with the "unsuitable for pimping" folks because they both share the NTR tag. What we'd need is clearly differentiated terminology between "appreciation/depreciation of slutty girls" and whatever you want to call the "Bully" thing. As long as we don't have the vocabulary in widespread use, these issues are always going to overlap.

 

[obibobi]

Your last part--seriously? That's 2 partners per year. How is that remotely "slutty"? Guys that age are sticking it in any willing hole. That's a woman who had a series of boyfriends for 5 years. Not one who went into the club bathroom with a different guy every weekend.

10 sexual partners over 5 years is slutty IMO and guys are trying to stick it in any willing hole.

 

[215303j]

Good post mate!

1. Junk Sciene.

I don't feel qualified to judge that (not my field at all) but anyway this forum is hardly a place to discuss qualifications.

But men do like sluts, they generally feel sexually attracted to them, and the trashier and sluttier, the hotter.

I agree with this, it is also a reason why I like some NTR / swinging / cheating games, like Adventurous Couple or Swinger Family. However for me it does require that I distance myself emotionally quite a bit from the MC, moreso than in a romance / seduction game.

So yeah there are good, rational reasons for not wanting to wife up a slut, even if you don't give a shit about your "honor".

So this mirrors my gaming experience.

If 100 other women have chosen to get plowed by a dude, there's nothing wrong with giving him a tumble, either.

This I don't really agree with. Women are still (sometimes) capable of rational though, and it depends on the woman's morals as well. In this situation, a woman who is determined to remain a virgin will most likely not go for this 100-women guy. Also because she realises that that guy is not husband material either.

On the other hand if a guy who actually tries hard never gets laid, there must be something wrong with him.

Maybe also in my experience this is usually thought to relate to quite shallow characteristics: can't dance well, uses wrong perfume, wears wrong clothes etc. In reality I think it has more to do with self-confidence, both in the initial meeting and conversation as well as the follow-through which might actually lead to sex. This is another thing that incels seem to regularly lack.

their friends will not be able to talk them out of it by telling him that she's really unattractive. This is a huge difference in how the genders behave, and backed up by tons of research.

I personally do know a couple of women who also don't listen if I tell them that this or that guy is a douchebag and not worth her time...

As for the type of NTR I actually do detest, I believe Bully is the best (most over the top) example. It's not only racist as fuck, fem-dommy which I find cringe, it is - even worse imo - focussing on the feelings of a guy. In porn. You have porn that focusses on the feelings of a guy. DUDE. That is so gay

Although Bully is indeed gay as fuck, I don't mind guys with feelings to be honest.

In fact, my favourite game, Our Fate, deals a lot with the male MC's feelings. Similarly Dual Family is very heavy on the feelings. Those two games are definely not gay.

So I believe that a lot of hatred for NTR is hatred for the "Bully" thing, that gets mixed in with the "unsuitable for pimping" folks because they both share the NTR tag. What we'd need is clearly differentiated terminology between "appreciation/depreciation of slutty girls" and whatever you want to call the "Bully" thing. As long as we don't have the vocabulary in widespread use, these issues are always going to overlap.

I think Bully is a quite extreme version of the cuckold genre. "Unsuitable for pimping" seems to be more related to swinging / cheating. Or actual NTR, maybe.

 

[IhaveNoPornAndIMustFap]

I personally do know a couple of women who also don't listen if I tell them that this or that guy is a douchebag and not worth her time...

I believe that's a slightly different... social mechanic at work. You're not thinking or arguing like a girl when you say "he's a douchebag" because that doesn't matter to the girl. You'd have to say "He's a shoe salesman? Do you know how little they earn? There's like zero career options!" or "He's a pilot? So he spends 50% of his work time cooped up in a cramped room with a bunch of stewardesses that get groped all day, and the other 50% is spent at some international airport, in a cramped room, with a bunch of stewardesses that wish they got groped right now?" Those are the sorts of things women react to. To be fair, also "How can you sleep with him, he's so ugly I'd have to vomit each time" - that specific trick doesn't work with guys though.

Although Bully is indeed gay as fuck, I don't mind guys with feelings to be honest.

I kinda get what you are mean. You can make a difference between a romance VN with hardcore sex in it - and straight up porn. But in general I prefer not see any "internal dialogue", most of it is just extremely bad, I can project/imagine/infer myself what the characters are thinking, and then there's "show, don't tell". But then we have a lewd scene and the internal dialogue tells me the male protagonist is excited that he's about to stick it into some girl? No shit, mate? At least some (better) games use the internal dialogue to let the player decide how the character should feel about something.

In fact, my favourite game, Our Fate, deals a lot with the male MC's feelings. Similarly Dual Family is very heavy on the feelings. Those two games are definely not gay.

I played both ages ago and do not have strong memories on Our Fate. Dual Family left more of an impact because of the "duality gimmick", but I remember it being messy and horribly overwritten. Just let me pick what the character does, I'll do the emotional fretting in my head, I don't need to read 15 lines about what the otherwise completely uninteresting character is meant to feel. It's either what I feel myself - in which case I don't need to read it - or it's something entirely different. Example: Father in DMD is not in it for the same reason I am. I want to see the big boobied bimbo get lewded. Meanwhile the Father is in emotional turmoil over being aroused by the big boobied bimbo. Pack that shit in. It's very well possible that another player may be in exactly this emotional turmoil and may identify with that more - but then again, he doesn't need to read it, he simply needs the ability to say "No" when the bimbo is giving up her holes. "No, this isn't how we do things here, incest is wrong, etc".

I think Bully is a quite extreme version of the cuckold genre. "Unsuitable for pimping" seems to be more related to swinging / cheating. Or actual NTR, maybe.

Here we are at the crux of the problem. "Cuckold genre" and "NTR" are used interchangeably. Because NTR is basically just japanese for "cuckold genre" (and its various forms) and then it also means a lot of other things. Like, when you're competing with another guy in a gamified system over the affections of a girl - which I am perfectly fine with as a game mechanic, that, however, only really works in actual games, i.e. the ones with gameplay. It doesn't really work in a non-game like Big Brother, where, lacking an actually defined game mechanic, you just end up with some guy molesting your girls.

My hypothesis is that we should bring back the "Pimp" genre as something distinct from and not overlapping with NTR. The old Akabur games are pretty strong on the pimping, and the entire "corruption" "genre" is rife with it. You can call a pimp a cuck all you want, in the end, he's slaying way more pussy than you do and the sluts are paying *him* for the privilege.

 

[215303j]

Those are the sorts of things women react to.

Not in this case... Believe me I tried...

I kinda get what you are mean. You can make a difference between a romance VN with hardcore sex in it - and straight up porn. But in general I prefer not see any "internal dialogue", most of it is just extremely bad, I can project/imagine/infer myself what the characters are thinking, and then there's "show, don't tell".

I think this is just the difference between good and bad writing. It's not about internal dialogue persé, but in good novels, you also know how the characters feel about things. Nobody will say that Frodo's biggest life wish was to go to Mordor and throw the Ring into Mount Doom. No, that was a struggle, both physically and mentally. It was hard and he hated it, although he did become in some ways a better person in the end. And everybody who has read Lord of the Ring (or seen the movies but that's not the same in this context) knows exactly how Frodo felt during the journey.

The same goes for erotic stories, especially those built on a certain taboo, e.g. incest. In itself, incest between two computer generated images does not make sense as computer generated images cannot be blood related. (Or, perhaps, all computer images are actually siblings because they were born in the same computer? Anyway...) So, the author / writer / developer needs to spin out the story, including why it wrong for F to fuck D in DMD. Maybe DMD is not the best example of how it should be done, but anyway... I think it's not so easy to convincingly sell the story to the reader / player and unfortunately the majority of these games are poorly written.

Here we are at the crux of the problem. "Cuckold genre" and "NTR" are used interchangeably. Because NTR is basically just japanese for "cuckold genre" (and its various forms) and then it also means a lot of other things. Like, when you're competing with another guy in a gamified system over the affections of a girl - which I am perfectly fine with as a game mechanic, that, however, only really works in actual games, i.e. the ones with gameplay. It doesn't really work in a non-game like Big Brother, where, lacking an actually defined game mechanic, you just end up with some guy molesting your girls.

My hypothesis is that we should bring back the "Pimp" genre as something distinct from and not overlapping with NTR. The old Akabur games are pretty strong on the pimping, and the entire "corruption" "genre" is rife with it. You can call a pimp a cuck all you want, in the end, he's slaying way more pussy than you do and the sluts are paying *him* for the privilege.

Yeah, I think that a big part of the problem is that most people, both players and devs are not Japanese and don't have a clue what NTR really means. Myself very much included. There seems to be broad definition and a narrow one, but people tend to apply whatever definition they please...

Cuckold is maybe a bit better defined, although people still have different ideas: https://f95zone.to/threads/what-is-cuckolding.20634/

Ultimately I think it comes down to feelings of jealousy and potentially masochism. Which can be both broad as well as misplaced, like when your daughter or sister is dating / fucking some guy you don't approve of. With misplaced I mean that is not really any of your business what an adult family member is doing with her body, even though you may care deeply about her and want to protect her from making a wrong choice, you are not her owner...

This is what the Pimp genre is lacking. A pimp does not feel jealous, he's only in it for the money and doesn't give a fuck about the women. But I think this genre is not so popular in terms of number of games being released with this topic.

 

[forbidden101v]

I personally don't understand the facts behind this stuff really so I'm just going to say my thoughts on the matter. I find it weird as hell to call someone a man slut tbh. Fuckboi also sounds like engrish 101. Manwhore is definitely the word I like even though it only works for prostitute males.

I don't really view men as sluts but thats probably because I have zero interest in having sex with them. I mean some dude could have slept with thousands of women like Gene Simmons and if anything I would probably see that as pretty cool since its more challenging for men I think when it comes to this stuff so theres also that. It doesn't have the same impact when something easy you know?

Slut shaming is something I have a mixed opinion on tbh. Personally I don't mind people slutting shaming those who spread disease and create unwanted pregnancies creating misery for society as a whole to clean up after their mess. For people who are responsible though and own up to their mistakes I say have at it.

As for me personally viewing women as sluts is usually not something that comes to mind but I've tried to rationalize it when I have thought about it. What would I consider a slut? Someone who sleeps around carelessly and/or has a higher count than the average number of sexual partners measured in statistics by the country. That method seems pretty fair for determining who and who isn't a slut I find tbh.

Once again this is all just my personal thoughts.