My Daz questions: As I learn it

Hamfist

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Nov 16, 2019
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so weirdness in daz I have a character fitted her outfit, select her with all her outfit and everything but the dress wont move to match the pose only the torso of the "dress" moves to match her pose the lower half hangs like she is still standing upright? bad asset? or am I doing something wrong?
 

Hamfist

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Nov 16, 2019
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To change the face the easiest way is to go through this

https://f95zone.to/tags/asset-morph/

and/or here



There are two ways to make them original, the easy way and the Saki_Sliz way. (which is also my way sort of)

If you get a pic of some random model of the net, front and side you can morph it sort of to that shape. Don't worry about trying to exactly make it like the pic, it's just for reference, you will get something unique that way.

The other way like Saki_Sliz is to an external program, my workflow is different, I make morphs in 3ds max to reference pics,
but I have been using max for 10 years, and I am pretty rough when I do it so I can't even teach anyone cos you shouldn't do it how I do it :D

But it's overkill for the most part, if you can't use blender or whatever, use daz, learning a 3d mesh program will do your head in.
Thanks mikeydoo, I'm getting better, I've figued out how to change a ton of stuff without assests for it (like eye color assets)
 

Saki_Sliz

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May 3, 2018
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dress wont move to match the pose only the torso
No I believe that is normal. The bottom half of the dress doesn't have any controlling bones for the legs because a dress doesn't care about the bones of the leg, but it does care and react to the surface of the legs. So instead there are 2 ways to control a dress.

1 the dress (usually skirts do this trick) have bones that are unique, kind in a flower petal design around the waist and down to the floor (if you can view all the bones it would look like a tentacle monster). Bones, rigs, armatures, skeletons, these are terms to describe a type of bone system used to bend and modify the mesh. The math behind this is relatively simple, and as a result it only works in a very basic manner. The bones for the dress can be as simple as 12 bones, 1 one each side, one infront of each leg and behind, and then those bones can be duplicated so there is half for the thigh part of the leg and half for the bottom half. These allow for very basic shaping of teh dress, to get it to match the pose, but it can be pretty rough and usually it doesn't look good or work for dresses, skirts on the other hand this works perfectly because you only need basic movement.

2 you can sculpt the mesh, or make a basic mesh that you man manipulate and shape, and use that mesh to reshape the dress so it perfectly matches the pose. Doing this would shape the dress, but would not remove details like the folds of the dress or how it looks like the bottom should lay flat on the floor. I would recommend this as it is the easiest and gives you the cleanest results, especially for the dress you are using. It looks like the bottom for your dress is meant to be on the floor at all times, because it is an aesthetic design choice. Now I don't know if daz can even do this, if there is a plug in to create the simple mesh or some tool you can buy that will let you do this. I use Blender for this. I could import the dress as a .obj, import the daz scene, get the .obj to fit the pose, and then I can import the obj as a new morph for the dress to match your pose in daz, as an example of such a workflow.

3 lastly you could simulate the fabric. I believe in daz it is called dforce, I don't know if it is a plug in or if only some assets have it enabled. There are 3 ways to simulate that I know of. you could start in the default pose, and then slowly fade into the final pose, and this way the dress will start outside the legs, and as they move then they'll collide with the dress and physics happens. Then you can do something similar, but interact with the dress in real time to shape its outcome. Marvelous designer does this best but I think it is expensive, it is just really efficient and computing cloth simulations. Blender can't really do this, (I think there is a plug in in daz that lets you grab and morph meshes at a very basic level, this might work with the simulation to pull and move the fabric as you need to), but you can fake it, you can use special bones like I talked about before, and instead of providing the general shape of teh mesh, you add bones that control only small key parts that you can then pull on the bone in real time to move that part of the mesh as the simulation is happening and the physics will react. Lastly you could try to parameterize the simulation, that is, moving and shaping the dress during the simulation, but instead of trying to edit it in real time, you animate all your actions so that you can tweek the animation to get different results. You can do this with high friction balls that are animated to move around an push/pull the fabric into place, you could do it with bones, shapekeys, morphs, etc, to try and hone in the perfect shape, such as if you wanted to preserve the design of the floor touching part of teh dress. The issue with the simulation is that the dress may not perfectly stay on the floor anymore, and if there are any bugs or glitches, you'd have to sculpt them out by hand. again, not sure how to do this in daz, since I use blender.
 
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Hamfist

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after some major messing around I figured out the dress has two thigh areas that you can move to fit your pose but it's extremely limited and you cannot adjust the portion that lays on the floor. adjusting the dress thigh areas any distance severely distorts the design/pattern on the dress (no big deal this style of dress isnt designed for gymnastics). sometimes the dress will notice it's colliding with the characters legs and show distortions and other times it wont, it's very random. overall this very pretty dress is very hard to do much with. I was hoping to do a kneeling pose and a laying on her side pose just for practice but I think that's a lost cause with this outfit on because that back flap isnt going to lay flat when she does. (of course I'm sure a fair portion can be put down to simple lack of experience on my part)

You in the back stop laughing...
 

HFSTime

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Jul 13, 2019
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Ah yes, welcome to the world of figuring out what clothing assets are going to play nicely with the ideas you have in mind. :)

The things Saki_Sliz mentioned are correct, though I would like to bring up one more thing. In Daz some clothing assets will also have shaping/movement morphs. Though the level of control you get from asset to asset is rarely the same.

If I had to take a wild guess the dress you're using might be more suited to using dForce simulation. Can you link to it (if it was purchased)?
 
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Saki_Sliz

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Ah yes, welcome to the world of figuring out what clothing assets are going to play nicely with the ideas you have in mind. :)

The things Saki_Sliz mentioned are correct, though I would like to bring up one more thing. In Daz some clothing assets will also have shaping/movement morphs. Though the level of control you get from asset to asset is rarely the same.

If I had to take a wild guess the dress you're using might be more suited to using dForce simulation. Can you link to it (if it was purchased)?
I've noticed clothes with morphs (such as to pull clothing to the side to be lewd), but some don't match any poses,
I've noticed poses for similar acts, but no clothes with morphs that match,
and I've noticed small packages that have clothing and poses with matching morphs, but you are limited to just that small collection. I know there are tools that allow for basic pulling of the mesh but other than that I just prefer to make custom clothes.
 
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HFSTime

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Yeah, it's hit or miss. Plus if your characters don't fit any of the well known body types that doesn't help either. And tools like Fit Control and SY Breast Helper can only do so much before the clothing gets to looking weird. DazStudio's AutoFit also assumes everything is meant to be skin tight as well.

*sigh* God forbid that people might want to make characters that don't conform to any of that. :)
 

Hamfist

Member
Nov 16, 2019
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Ah yes, welcome to the world of figuring out what clothing assets are going to play nicely with the ideas you have in mind. :)

The things Saki_Sliz mentioned are correct, though I would like to bring up one more thing. In Daz some clothing assets will also have shaping/movement morphs. Though the level of control you get from asset to asset is rarely the same.

If I had to take a wild guess the dress you're using might be more suited to using dForce simulation. Can you link to it (if it was purchased)?
 

Hamfist

Member
Nov 16, 2019
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87
I've noticed clothes with morphs (such as to pull clothing to the side to be lewd), but some don't match any poses,
I've noticed poses for similar acts, but no clothes with morphs that match,
and I've noticed small packages that have clothing and poses with matching morphs, but you are limited to just that small collection. I know there are tools that allow for basic pulling of the mesh but other than that I just prefer to make custom clothes.
I'm not at that level of generating my own anything yet... at some point i'll have to learn I think. but right now I just want to learn the basics and limitations so i'm not reinventing the wheel over and over
 

Hamfist

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I'm kind of at the point where I realize my ideas of wire frame level manipulation in 3d on every object was left drowning in a mud puddle back by the first left turn onto daz lane... (pardon my bad jokes)
 

Hamfist

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Nov 16, 2019
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so what programs are people using to create assets for daz I cant see them doing it in daz unless theres a hidden controll panel for wire mapping (or whatever you call it)
 

Hamfist

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Nov 16, 2019
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87
Yeah, it's hit or miss. Plus if your characters don't fit any of the well known body types that doesn't help either. And tools like Fit Control and SY Breast Helper can only do so much before the clothing gets to looking weird. DazStudio's AutoFit also assumes everything is meant to be skin tight as well.

*sigh* God forbid that people might want to make characters that don't conform to any of that. :)
hell I havent even figure out how to change the breast size without adjusting the whole torso...
 

Saki_Sliz

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I'm kind of at the point where I realize my ideas of wire frame level manipulation in 3d on every object was left drowning in a mud puddle back by the first left turn onto daz lane... (pardon my bad jokes)
So I started out with Rhino cad and using design software to make machines. This includes setting lengths, using tools and tricks to make the parts you want. Then I started using blender, which you can use sculpting, tricks, tools and what not to make a mesh, but if you are making game assets or just want to make fully custom assets, eventually you do have to do wireframe level work, vertex by vertex. After I got use to it, I haven't been able to go back. It is like, the tools get in the way, but once you know how to work with a mesh, you push the tools away and do it yourself, it can be so much faster even. like pushing your kid away and doing their homework for them >:3
so what programs are people using to create assets for daz I cant see them doing it in daz unless theres a hidden controll panel for wire mapping (or whatever you call it)
OK so here is the thing to understand about how daz works on a fundamental level. Daz starts you off with a 3D model, which has a particular shape. This model is also rigged, meaning that it has a skeleton, and a weight map has been made for each bone (weight maps is how you tell a mesh what bone controls what part of the mesh). In order for characters and assets to be compatable with daz, to allow you to blend them together and mix and match them, clothes must use the same skelecton and weights, and characters must use the exact same mesh, All you do is use a program like z brush (the most popular and the two program also share a dedicated file format to share just between the two), resculpt the body, import it back in, and then run one of the tools that autofits the skeleton back onto the mesh, and that is a character. as for cloth assets, it must be done using both a tool that I don't know (to get a weight map for the mesh) and the clothing must be made in some other program. I think z brush is the most popular, because it has cool tools fo adding effects like, stitching, but do so using a brush stroke rather than manually adding it in. Then you use tools like quad remesher to remesh the sculpt to be more friendly to use in animation, and port it into daz. I am pretty confident most people use z brush, because sure you could use Houdini, blender or maya to make assets, but you make them from scratch, mesh (or auto mesh), textures, fit scans to textures, etc, but in z brush they have a whole suit of tools that make it easy and convincing, and you don't need to worry about using textures or scans, it has tools that can greatly help with making materials, and you can edit them further in substance painter but z brush is good enough. After that maybe throw it into blender or Houdini to apply some effects to further refine the materials, then throw it into daz, use some magic tool that perfectly weight paints the clothes to follow the skeleton and call it good.
hell I havent even figure out how to change the breast size without adjusting the whole torso...
Breasts are the biggest pain in the back, especially big ones :p
actually I find I have more issues with the smaller boobs.
I do more cartoonish characters, so I need my boobs to be in all sorts of sizes, big and small. Breast factory is my absolute favorite but I have many other morph packets that are for the boobs and body as well. Now the first issue you will see with boob are morphs that make them big, and as a result this messes up the clothes. What I'll actually do if I want to have a character with exaggerated boobs is i'll actually make the character at first, keep the breast the default size or only slightly bigger, I'll export to blender, and then I'll make the boobs big and export that as well. with the small shirt, I'll use physics simulation to get it to fit on the body, with the idea being that the shirt is obviously not going to fit, but the attempt to make it fit over the boobs will help show off just how big the boobs are. Now this isn't the true issue I have, because if I want to I can be lazy and just sculpt the glitches out of teh shirt, it take 5 seconds. The real issue is having characters. If you use daz characters, the almost always reshape the chest and breasts. The moment this happens, it messes up all of your breast morphs. So Breast factor that has this nice morph for flat or small boobs, is now really distorted and it is impossible to do small boobs. In blender it is possible to take 2 characters, combine them together as a shape key, and fade between the shapes of both. What you can do with this is make a slider of the default shape, that morphs the body to match the shape of your unique and custom character. What I would like to do is weight map this, I want to erase the morph effect on the boobs so that the characters have the default boobs and you can use any morph you want, but so far I haven't seen a tool or program that is able to do this, it is so simple, foundational tech is there, but no one has implemented it yet and I'm still new to programming in blender so I can't code it.

lastly, looking at the dress you linked, I think you are suppose to use the dress for standing up poses. Now I don't mean poses that have the character standing but rather... sometimes if you get a nice pose pack, poses will be broken down into upper and lower body, as well as whole body. I think you are suppose to use this with pose packs that let you just pose the upper body. the legs just stay normal as we don't need to see it, we just need to see you standing in a pretty dress.
 

Hamfist

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Nov 16, 2019
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thank you for that wealth of information. I've been going (work, practicing, renders, and coding) since 4 am this morning, I'll re read that when my I.Q. returns to positive numbers (right now a chunk of granite would beat me in a battle of the wits) it's 8pm it's now officially past my bed time.
 

Saki_Sliz

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XD it doesn't help that I have started to give up on being perfect with my replies. I use to slave over my replies to try to make sure it was well written and easy to understand, now I just ramble... sorry about that.
 
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Hamfist

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Nov 16, 2019
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so constructive feedback on the model I'm attempting to build, just a note, have not changed skin tone eye color etc yet, this is about face structure (I was also working on custom poses in this) but this is an IRay spot render. the face is a blend of 2 prefabs with a little tweaking. i'm trying to create something re-producible but original (as original as it can be using prefabs I guess) I was also dicking around with hair color to see what kind of weird hair colors I can make without buying custom hair color kits ignore that)
 

Hamfist

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Nov 16, 2019
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also how the hell do I save her as just her instead of as a scene, say for importing her into a scene with all adjustments made and wearing current outfit (I always work with some clothes on the model I have a kid who wanders through my office regularly)

Never mind found it on another thread
 
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Saki_Sliz

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I assume that means you found this answer https://f95zone.to/threads/daz-sutd...-everything-applied-to-it.43447/#post-2865349

To be honest, it is hard to give feedback on a single head alone, all I can say is, yep it looks like a daz character.

I would say when it comes to heads and faces, 3 things to note of.

I find if you make the head shape in daz, and you just use the solid fill shading to preview your work, it doesn't work out. With the basic shading, its simplicity makes details like the cheeks pop-out, but if you actually render (such as in a room where light bounces around and is soft) then those details don't stand out nearly as much as we thought they were when working in the editor with the basic shader. With Blender i can work with the render working in real-time (that may be thanks to my GTX 1080TI but still daz iray is slow even with that) and I can further optimize it, I can even use the EEVEE real time render and to presimulate light bounce behavior so I can get a feeling of what characters look like when illuminated in a room, sculpting in real time. If I just stick to daz or at least to it's default solid surface shading, I find that because details often stand out too much (due to the simple shading) that I end up being a bit too conservitive, and as a result all my heads and faces tend to look pretty similar. they don't really stand out if you zoom the camera out to view them as a group. I find it is pretty important that after working, to start doing renders to see what teh final product looks like, and then I'll go through a phase of editing and re rendering because only the final renders really count, which is a horrible way to work and why I prefer to use blender and its realtime shading. (I can not emphasize enough just how orgasmic it is to pre simulate light bounce in a scene, using light probes, be able to view what a room looks like in real time with realistic lighting, and be able to drag objects through my scene and see how the lighting changes the way the object looks as I keep shaking it around with my mouse)

I mentioned how my heads may look similar if I use just daz basic previewing, I also said I couldn't really give feedback on a single head alone. I believe many would agree with the statement, that head/face design is an important part of character design, but I also believe in the art of exaggeration. I try to make head shapes that matches a character's personality. ie more prime and proper or mature people having leaner cheeks, younger characters have rounder cheeks and different head to eye proportion ratios, etc. I tend to think that the default daz head is too rectangular with its jaw, which is great if I want to recreate Captian Janeway (from star trek) but then any character I make using the default head as the base all tend to look like different kinds of janeways rather than unique characters. But after you view enough of these, you start to understand what the artist's normal head would look like, and once you know what the average or normal head ship is for a particular artist or art style, you then can start to pick up on details like 'this character has the strongest jaw, which helps show her russian personality' and 'this character has the strongest cheeks, reflecting how she is the perfect girl who thinks shes god's gift.' but with just a single head, I can't say anything because I can see a strong jaw, but that may only look strong for what art style I would use, but maybe for you it is just normal, so I would need to look at a collection of head to figure out your style, and you would probably need to try to make 30 or so heads as you try to figure out your own style as well, as you explore what you like.

lastly, as I mentioned the importance of doing final renders and basic you work on that (as you sculpt or something) I find things like makeing sure the shaders and the textures are set up and everything, because that can drastically change the look of a model. such a pale skin tone, like a goth, actually tends to complement a stronger jaw and head shape, I find the daz shading is too shiny for me, and it isn't a slider that improves it but a type of reflection curve that daz iray doesn't implement, but something I can do in blender. I also find that I have 1 favorite texture, eyelashes, iris color and eyebrows that I use for all my characters because it enables the type of skin look I want (disney style ish). once materials are figured out, I find the last bit of detail that can really help make a character head interesting to look at, understand, and still be readable even if the subject is further away from the camera, is a little bit of eyeliner aronud the eyes to make their shape stand out just a bit more. I find even the simplest amount of eyeliner transforms the feeling I get from a character's face.

so nothing really constructive i guess ...
 
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Hamfist

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that's a ton of constructive advice, exactly what I was looking for, remember as of 5 days ago I had never done a single piece of 3d modeling anything.

I have a plan for at least 6 distinct female characters and 4 male characters for now so as I build them i'll offer up a collection of renders for people to pick apart maybe I'll make beach scene with a couple of them standing around so there's good sunlight (have to figure that part out too lighting) I haven't really messed with that much yet.

I dont really have a decent collection of assets for like an apartment scene (which is why i'm looking at building my own because I'll be fucked if I'm paying 50$ for a microwave and stove set that I cant cook on). lol