Ren'Py Mythic Manor [v0.22] [Jikei]

[Skeltom]

Until we see the size of the update, we can't say for sure the wait is worth it or not. There has to be at least some context other than time elapsed between updates. For example, variables of how many quality renders a 2 person team can do a month, and if we assume they are a full time 2 person dev team. IMO If we end up getting a small or even a medium size update after waiting 6 or so months, that would be unreasonable. The amount of work done is not reasonable with the elapsed dev time. But if the update size reflects the amount of dev time elapsed, then it is reasonable even if we waited 6 or so months, because we actually got 6 or so months of full time work.

I have no issue with the turn over between updates as long as the update size reflects the expected work that should be done during that time.

I can agree with that. I was just saying it has been too long a wait for my personal preference. We just have to wait and see and hope it's worth it. I don't want to seem cynical but if it's just 2h of new content for this amount of time I think I'll be un-watching this one.

 

[Reaverer]

I can agree with that. I was just saying it has been too long a wait for my personal preference. We just have to wait and see and hope it's worth it. I don't want to seem cynical but if it's just 2h of new content for this amount of time I think I'll be un-watching this one.

I think they are simply overdoing it. Apparently the devs have this weird mindset that makes them insist on having something for almost every main girl with every update. Now they decided to go for a big event with Nefari, so the entire thing gets colosaly delayed. I get that they don't want cliffhangers, so they won't release the event in parts, but why not make a couple of scenes with other characters, and keep releasing smaller updates, while working on the big thing? So long as they keep reminding people that the reason why updates are smaller is because there is this big event they are working on, their audience wouldn't mind. At the same time, updates (even small) that keep happening will keep the doomsayers away.

 

[QQP_Purple]

It's also keeping new people away. I mean, I've been looking at trying this thing for months before I eventually got my self to download it last week simply because I was held back by a nagging feeling that it's dead and that I best not get my hopes up. And I definitively won't be sending them money for it given the uncertainty.

 

[Skeltom]

At the same time, updates (even small) that keep happening will keep the doomsayers away.

I personally think that's better for everyone involved, the devs and players alike. It's much less work for them and the players have steady content releases to keep them around. Not every update needs to be game changing. On a side note I think the last 5 month may have been better spent on redoing the poor animations from the beginning or at least have one of them working on them. But again maybe it will be well spent who knows.

 

[utterdrong]

Smaller updates work better in terms of proportion too. If every extra month of development only adds another hour of content, then to most people it just won't feel like much is gained for the increased interval. You wait another whole 30 days for what ultimately still gets played through in one afternoon.

 

[TheDevian]

Just to play devil's advocate...

IMO, small updates are boring, and not worth the time to play, as soon as you get into them, they are over. In at least one example, they also work on the characters I want nothing to do with most of the time, ignoring any of the ones I want to see for months and months at a time, and when they do finally add something for someone I like, it's one tiny event that barely moves anything along, it's just annoying.

I would much rather wait a few more months, and get an update that has something for almost everyone, not like I don't have other things to do. It's more fun and you can enjoy it for a couple of days, rather than an hour or two... It's a fine line to walk, and no matter what you do, there will be people who are bitching and whining about it.

The size of the cast is also a factor, the larger the cast, the longer it takes to make.

The problem here isn't so much how long they take, but that there is not a lot of communication, or at least what there is, doesn't reach here (there might be more on their patreon or discord, but I don't have time follow them closely).

And as always, if you are a supporter, there are better places to make yourself heard, since they don't frequent here, and if not, well ...what we think probably doesn't really matter to them all that much. The ones who do, seem to like what they do, and they have a fair few, so it seems to be working pretty well for them.

​

 

[Evil13]

Agreed on all counts.

When you're talking about a cast of nearly 2 dozen character, most of whom the player can engage in sexual activity with, you're going to run into one of two problems when updating.
- If you take the "Give everyone something" kind of update, well, that's somewhere on the order of 24 scenes, minimum for that update. And that's just one scene per character. The number will go up even higher if there's a character in focus.

Of course, the downside here is that, it takes time to make sure every character gets something. We're hitting six months from the last update and the only real news we've gotten is "This next update is going to be massive!". Well, people can only wait for so long before they get tired of waiting.

Then you have the other side
- Smaller, more regular updates. Focusing on one or two characters every update means that we get updates more often and maybe even tighter stories.

The problems with this approach comes from the fact that everything is working on a deadline, which is stressful enough. Now add the pressure of trying to keep up with fan demands/criticism. "Why aren't you working on X?" "Y's already got too much content!" "Give us more Z!"

Lets be honest, the developers are damned if they do, damned if they don't, no matter what they do.

The only thing I would ask of them is to talk to the fans more. Social media is one of the most powerful tools available for them, both in terms of talking to fans and for building up interest of their game. And they barely use it. I've done social media management for several companies over the years and just seeing what Jikei don't do, it's frustrating because that really is one of their best tools available to them and its just sitting there.

 

[utterdrong]

And they barely use it.

I think an especially glaring mistake is when they release the monthly art post and don't even mention progress updates or anything. Even an empty "yeah it's still happening please wait" lets people feel like they're being kept in the loop.

 

[KnuckleDragger79]

I think an especially glaring mistake is when they release the monthly art post and don't even mention progress updates or anything. Even an empty "yeah it's still happening please wait" lets people feel like they're being kept in the loop.

Have YOU made a game like this from scratch?

 

[Reaverer]

Agreed on all counts.

When you're talking about a cast of nearly 2 dozen character, most of whom the player can engage in sexual activity with, you're going to run into one of two problems when updating.
- If you take the "Give everyone something" kind of update, well, that's somewhere on the order of 24 scenes, minimum for that update. And that's just one scene per character. The number will go up even higher if there's a character in focus.

Of course, the downside here is that, it takes time to make sure every character gets something. We're hitting six months from the last update and the only real news we've gotten is "This next update is going to be massive!". Well, people can only wait for so long before they get tired of waiting.

Then you have the other side
- Smaller, more regular updates. Focusing on one or two characters every update means that we get updates more often and maybe even tighter stories.

The problems with this approach comes from the fact that everything is working on a deadline, which is stressful enough. Now add the pressure of trying to keep up with fan demands/criticism. "Why aren't you working on X?" "Y's already got too much content!" "Give us more Z!"

Lets be honest, the developers are damned if they do, damned if they don't, no matter what they do.

The only thing I would ask of them is to talk to the fans more. Social media is one of the most powerful tools available for them, both in terms of talking to fans and for building up interest of their game. And they barely use it. I've done social media management for several companies over the years and just seeing what Jikei don't do, it's frustrating because that really is one of their best tools available to them and its just sitting there.

Honestly I see more damage in long wait than in small updates. You can easily organize your workflow to not let any girl get neglected for too long - a simple excel sheet can do that for you. Also, it's easier for someone to skip an update or two to get more content in one go, than it is for another to play a little bit of an update that wasn't released yet. Long time waits can lead people to stop caring about the project (I actually FORGOT this was a thing until I found the game while clearing some old junk from my drive). In the same vein, those who actually support the devs may feel ripped off (most probably will give them the benefit of the doubt, but any loses in this regard are likely to be permanent). Then you have the problem that not everyone cares about all the characters. Supposedly, this update takes so long because of a Nefari event. People who don't care about Nefari are already disappointed, before the update even comes out. Then you have the scary (to the devs anyway) possibility that the event will simply not resonate with the audience, and get a "meh" reaction or worse. Imagine waiting 6 months for an update that is mostly content you end up not really liking. With smaller updates you can at least course-correct much quicker.

 

[Skeltom]

IMO, small updates are boring, and not worth the time to play, as soon as you get into them, they are over.

True but small is relative. You can release a sizable update every month that would most likely have something for everyone to some regard. But again there is a line I think, for an update to one game using studio neo to take almost 6 moths (and that's so far) it would have to be massive to justify the extra wait, again in my opinion.

Look at games like A House In The Rift and Corrupted Kingdoms that release pretty substantial updates much more frequently, I know CK uses Chara studio but it is used exactly the same way as Studio neo. Also to give more props to AHITR the animations are custom not vanilla pre made animations. From what I have read about the update a lot of work went into side girls for the Nef trip which doesn't even add to the main plot progression. I think they should stick to the girls they already have before they start playing somewhere else.

 

[TheDevian]

Honestly I see more damage in long wait than in small updates. You can easily organize your workflow to not let any girl get neglected for too long - a simple excel sheet can do that for you. Also, it's easier for someone to skip an update or two to get more content in one go, than it is for another to play a little bit of an update that wasn't released yet. Long time waits can lead people to stop caring about the project (I actually FORGOT this was a thing until I found the game while clearing some old junk from my drive). In the same vein, those who actually support the devs may feel ripped off (most probably will give them the benefit of the doubt, but any loses in this regard are likely to be permanent). Then you have the problem that not everyone cares about all the characters. Supposedly, this update takes so long because of a Nefari event. People who don't care about Nefari are already disappointed, before the update even comes out. Then you have the scary (to the devs anyway) possibility that the event will simply not resonate with the audience, and get a "meh" reaction or worse. Imagine waiting 6 months for an update that is mostly content you end up not really liking. With smaller updates you can at least course-correct much quicker.

This doesn't happen in reality though...

This problem only gets larger with the smaller updates, as the entire update will be focused that character you don't like, followed by another, and another, and another... while the ones you do continue to get ignored.

 

[Evil13]

Exactly. Looks at games like A House In the Rift or Love & Sex: Second Base. Both games that the approach of smaller, regular updates, usually with the main focus of each update on one or two girls. And they still get flak for the fact that some girls aren't getting an update there and then.

Honestly, developers can't win.

 

[TheDevian]

Exactly. Looks at games like A House In the Rift or Love & Sex: Second Base. Both games that the approach of smaller, regular updates, usually with the main focus of each update on one or two girls. And they still get flak for the fact that some girls aren't getting an update there and then.

Honestly, developers can't win.

Yeah, usually in that route, they let the supporters vote, and then 25-50% of them are deciding what everyone else gets to see. At least in this way, even if the episode is focused on one character you don't like, there will still be something for you to enjoy.

 

[Cryptist]

I was a supporter, until they quit posting updates. If all this delay was for a major Nefari event, I won't be a supporter again soon. She was my least favorite character, by a considerable margin. I liked the other characters a lot.

 

[ingridmailer]

I won't stand for any Nefari slander. "Flat chest big ass" is too rare in these kind of games, we must preserve what we have.

 

[Reaverer]

I was a supporter, until they quit posting updates. If all this delay was for a major Nefari event, I won't be a supporter again soon. She was my least favorite character, by a considerable margin. I liked the other characters a lot.

Thank you! That was exactly my point! The entire update schedule was derailed for a big event for one character - if you don't like that character than you're screwed! You're waiting 6 months (and counting) for the exact same amount of content that you would've enjoyed in a regular update schedule. One character put the entire project on pause, because of some arbitrary rule that every update needs to have something for every character, thus the update will not be released until the big thing for (again) ONE CHARACTER is ready! That's the insanity I'm trying to point to.

This doesn't happen in reality though...

Could you please tell me what exactly are you referring to? I made several points in that post and I don't know which one you claim doesn't happen.

This problem only gets larger with the smaller updates, as the entire update will be focused that character you don't like, followed by another, and another, and another... while the ones you do continue to get ignored.

Dude... I addressed that in the second sentence of that post you quoted...
Excel sheet... put in dates... write a function to track how much time elapsed for each girl since her last update... leave a column to keep tabs on how much content there is for every girl...
you know... so that no girl is left with average 1 update a year while another gets 8 or something...
Also - I never said that small update means 1 girl per update - just not 6 + how many side girls they decide to throw themselves at this time.

Also, also:

as the entire update will be focused that character you don't like,

You mean as with what's happening right now because of Nefari's event? It may be one update, but one character will have a fuckton of scenes (presumeably) while others will just get a token 1 or something.

Exactly. Looks at games like A House In the Rift or Love & Sex: Second Base. Both games that the approach of smaller, regular updates, usually with the main focus of each update on one or two girls. And they still get flak for the fact that some girls aren't getting an update there and then.

Honestly, developers can't win.

Welp, I know nothing about these projects, so I'm taking your word on it. Though it may just be a vocal minority complaining thing. But if what TheDevian said about these and the supporters voting thing, than these projects have a different problem. Letting your supporters vote should be not on who gets an update, but who goes first (and get back to voting only once content planned for all characters gets released). at least IMO.

 

[TheDevian]

Dude... I addressed that in the second sentence of that post you quoted...
Excel sheet... put in dates... write a function to track how much time elapsed for each girl since her last update... leave a column to keep tabs on how much content there is for every girl...
you know... so that no girl is left with average 1 update a year while another gets 8 or something...

This is what I was talking about, it never works that way. They usually leave it up to a vote, so 25-50% of the base get to decide, while everyone else is left hanging.

Also - I never said that small update means 1 girl per update - just not 6 + how many side girls they decide to throw themselves at this time.

No, but that is usually how it goes. Time is limited, so you either do all or one, anything in between has a much higher chance of upsetting the fans. The fans of those getting left out will always feel let down. and the less of them that get left out, the more it hurts when they are.

Also, also:
You mean as with what's happening right now because of Nefari's event? It may be one update, but one character will have a fuckton of scenes (presumeably) while others will just get a token 1 or something.

Again, no, because at least in this case, those who don't like Nefari, will have scenes with girls they do like. With a shorter update, that would not be possible, it would just be her, and it if is as big as you are implying, it could even be several updates long if they are short enough.

Welp, I know nothing about these projects, so I'm taking your word on it. Though it may just be a vocal minority complaining thing. But if what TheDevian said about these and the supporters voting thing, than these projects have a different problem. Letting your supporters vote should be not on who gets an update, but who goes first (and get back to voting only once content planned for all characters gets released). at least IMO.

No matter what you do, there will be a minority complaining. Tastes vary, and everyone cares about different things, this discussion illustrates that rather well, and by including as much as you can, you lessen that. The only exception being those who complain about the time the updates take, and even in games that are out every month or two, you can see people start wondering where the next update is within a week or two, so there is little point in worrying about that. People will complain no matter what you do, so all you can do is what you think is best, what works best for you and your team.

I agree that letting people vote on main content is another problem, but it is related. They have to decide somehow, and that is usually how they decide. The you get a small 'majority', yet very dedicated and vocal group, such as the incest fans who all vote for the mom or sister, the loli fans who all vote for the loli, or whatever it is in that moment, and the rest of the girls get divided more evenly, meaning that they almost never get picked in most examples.

 

[QQP_Purple]

I've been following this discussion for a while and the more I read this the more I conclude that the DEVs have simply bitten off more than they can chew. Seriously, if your game has so many characters that developing something for each takes so long people think the game is dead than you have too many characters.

I've seen this sort of thing before. People have a million things they want their product to do and they want them all at once. It's called feature creep. And it ain't pretty. In my experience that's one of the leading causes of project failure. And I don't just mean games made by two people either but proper corporate projects with entire organizations working on them as well. So be warned.


As for those saying people here don't matter you are dead wrong. We are the potential customer base for this game. And the exposure a game gets on places such as this simply by virtue of the amount of people looking at this forum is far greater than the number of people that'll randomly stumble upon it on patreon. So this (and places like this) are a store font. This thread (and others like it on other forums) and the releases and discussions on it are what I and many others look to when deciding if we want to throw our money at a game or not. After all, it's not like the dev has a media machine pumping out hype like AAA games do. So community management is everything.

 

[splamo]

I won't stand for any Nefari slander. "Flat chest big ass" is too rare in these kind of games, we must preserve what we have.

Preach, brother