Recommending NTR, netorare, cuckold - resources, discussion, development

[ZBYToshiro]

If you can avoid it, well then is it really an NTR game?

Yes, it's still can called an NTR game, at least in my opinion.

Fallen Priestess requires no effort at all to avoid the NTR elements, just based on what I've played of what's available you could easily clear all the content easily without ever seeing any NTR elements because they're so easily avoidable.

This... actually came from player feedback from Nebel, most of which was that it was too difficult, and that the RNG element should be removed from the game entirely. And it's true that I myself needed quite a bit of cheating to understand the mechanics and really experience the game, so it's no wonder BBQ decided to tone down the difficulty in Fallen Priestess.

 

[ZBYToshiro]

I think I'd rather have forced NTR, because at least then it would still be NTR, rather than essentially being netorase in the stupidest way possible where you have to pick "do you want to fail Y/N" to trigger it. Shame, because I liked the setup with the murder mystery and the relatively long prologue.

Nah, I wouldn't call avoidable NTR "netorase" or even "netorase in the stupidest way possible". I also wouldn't complain about you saying that, if you're the type of person who wants to 100% role-play as the cuckolded character, instead of just being the one controlling the character and partially feeling their emotions. For me, it's the same case as when we control the FMC in FMC avoidable corruption games. I mean, nobody really wants to fully role-play as those FMC... right?

 

[Kulman]

I agree with your perspective on what makes a good story, but that still doesn't change the opinion that "a good NTR game doesn't necessarily need a highly-rated story". Oh, in case you don't disagree with that opinion and I'm just misunderstanding again, please consider the following as a few ramblings to further explain this opinion.

Take

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as an example: this is a simple scene-finding game about the MC, his mother, and his scumbag friend getting trapped on a spaceship. It has no build-up or opening at all; right from the start of the game, we are already in a situation isolated from the other two.

The pacing is also very crude. It never directly shows us any resistance from the mother, but merely the process of her becoming progressively more amused by the friend's "pranks". If you had trouble seeing Nebel's heroine as a "person", then you definitely wouldn't be able to see the mother in this game as a human being at all.

And yet, for me and some others, it's still considered a good game, and I quite enjoyed playing it. Of course, I would never rate it an 8 or higher, but that's because the story isn't the only thing the game needs to improve to achieve a higher score.

Furthermore, look at other games like

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. They certainly don't have good stories either, just enough for us to roleplay. And yet, those games still receive a lot of praise. Maybe not from you, but from the different audience they target. So, it still prove my point.

Yeah it doesnt NEED it, but any game that has it is better for it imo. There are games carried solely by their mechanics/art etc. that end up making up for the story. But if it also had that story, it would be a masterpiece.

At the same time, all of the games that I found good despite lacking story... I just dont really remember. They were throwaway games that I played in an afternoon and mostly forgotten about. Almost no emotional impact, because without good writing, you dont connect with the story, the characters... almost any of it. Still fun fast food and perhaps a good fap, but not much else.

Spaceship escape for example was a very short game. Its one the nose but its just knows what it is, so its fun. It doesnt overstay its welcome with grindy mechanics, long exposition or stuff like that. So even if its lacking in many areas, you dont mind it so much. At the same time, the story is so lacking that I already forgot what the game was about. Still have a positive outlook on it. Of course it arriving when everyone is bored out of their mind because of the NTR drought definitely helped its reception here.

 

[2022meinfzone]

This... actually came from player feedback from Nebel, most of which was that it was too difficult, and that the RNG element should be removed from the game entirely. And it's true that I myself needed quite a bit of cheating to understand the mechanics and really experience the game, so it's no wonder BBQ decided to tone down the difficulty in Fallen Priestess.

As time goes by, I've come to the realisation that NTR community is quite divisive, as everything else, really. As you can see, every time the Nebel topic comes up, there are people who hate it and then there are people like me who like it. Personally, I don't think it's difficult skill-wise but it was very underexplained. Those who like it can chalk it up as a way for player to experience the frustration of the protagonist, having to figure out hidden game mechanics in multiple attempts to get the true end (or at least I think so, with my very biased view). The other side just calls it poor game design, not worth their time.

But then, once players know what to do, avoiding NTR became super easy, and you have to deliberately play bad for it to happen. Thankfully, the dungeons get harder if you clear it quickly, so at least Kana can still be molested accidentally. However, the dungeon scenes, or CCTV scenes are random, you might not get what you aimed for so it might not be fun for some people. The night scenes are also random (I don't know why the dev decided to remove the orb to select what event would happen in ver 1.2) and remain easy to avoid.

For the priestess game, with how the night scenes are still random and the difficulty is way lower than Nebel in the demo, I don't think it's as much of an upgrade as BBQ thinks it is.

 

[critic specialized in NTR]

As time goes by, I've come to the realisation that NTR community is quite divisive, as everything else, really. As you can see, every time the Nebel topic comes up, there are people who hate it and then there are people like me who like it. Personally, I don't think it's difficult skill-wise but it was very underexplained. Those who like it can chalk it up as a way for player to experience the frustration of the protagonist, having to figure out hidden game mechanics in multiple attempts to get the true end (or at least I think so, with my very biased view). The other side just calls it poor game design, not worth their time.

But then, once players know what to do, avoiding NTR became super easy, and you have to deliberately play bad for it to happen. Thankfully, the dungeons get harder if you clear it quickly, so at least Kana can still be molested accidentally. However, the dungeon scenes, or CCTV scenes are random, you might not get what you aimed for so it might not be fun for some people. The night scenes are also random (I don't know why the dev decided to remove the orb to select what event would happen in ver 1.2) and remain easy to avoid.

For the priestess game, with how the night scenes are still random and the difficulty is way lower than Nebel in the demo, I don't think it's as much of an upgrade as BBQ thinks it is.

Apparently, Nebel is a game you either love or hate. Many of you have played it, and in my experience, I felt like I wasted hours of my life playing Nebel. I played and got nowhere, and when there were cutscenes, they were very random. It's a game that tried to be too big, but ended up all messy and difficult to play, a frustrating NTR experience. Even if you risk the game's difficulty, it doesn't reward you with a good NTR story or good cutscenes. In my honest opinion, Nebel fails in almost everything.

 

[ZBYToshiro]

Yeah it doesnt NEED it, but any game that has it is better for it imo. There are games carried solely by their mechanics/art etc. that end up making up for the story. But if it also had that story, it would be a masterpiece.

It's obvious that to create a 10/10, or even a 9/10 game, a “highly-rated story” is a must-have. However, first, I can also argue against this point, that “gameplay” holds equivalent value. Second, I'm not currently talking about creating a “masterpiece”, but just a “good”, or at most, a “great” NTR game, and I'm trying to speak objectively here, because subjectively, Nebel is already a masterpiece in my heart.

At the same time, all of the games that I found good despite lacking story... I just dont really remember. They were throwaway games that I played in an afternoon and mostly forgotten about. Almost no emotional impact, because without good writing, you dont connect with the story, the characters... almost any of it. Still fun fast food and perhaps a good fap, but not much else.

Regarding this, I will neither agree nor disagree with your opinion. Simply because it's leaning more towards a subjective perspective. Just like how you don't like Nebel as much as NTRPG2, while it's the opposite for me.

Nebel certainly doesn't have a “highly-rated story”, but hey, I never said it didn't have a good story. Similar to RinaTest, in terms of overall story, it's only at a 6/10, but it did its job well: perfectly complementing the “gameplay”, rationalizing decisions, creating conditions to showcase the game mechanics, and giving those mechanics the necessary weight, thereby elevating itself significantly. Because as you said: “Even just a small interaction between characters and how that develops is a story”, and I'm pretty sure that the process of observing the heroine in Nebel also counts.

That's exactly what I meant when I said, “A good NTR game doesn”t necessarily need a highly-rated story”. It doesn't need a highly-rated story; just a good story is enough.

In the debate on this topic, I once said, “In my opinion, a good NTR game is one that expresses the NTR element in the best possible way”. Therefore, even though I've been arguing (?) with you this whole time, my stance could just as easily be modified to: “A good NTR game doesn't necessarily need a highly-rated gameplay”. Every game has a different approach, and all those approaches are equally good if they are “expressed” in the best possible way. Nothing is perfect, so no single approach is the “best”.

So, in summary, the only thing I want you to take away from this is to observe things more objectively. I'm not saying all the games you find bad are actually good and just coincidentally not for you. But at least I hope that you will consider that possibility a bit more carefully.

 

[skyblueaster]

*snip*
If you can avoid [NTR], well then is it really an NTR game?
Honestly I've just lost interest in Fallen Priestess just due to lack of gravitas.

I think it all comes down to writing. Plenty of good NTR games have choices, as can be seen in the old school JP NTR VNs.
The key point is to write choices that are in-character and mostly believable from a storytelling perspective.
Avoid choices that are utterly ridiculous or blatantly coded as good/bad.

You can still have choices that hint at H-scenes, but the justifications for the H should be present. That will lead to the game being perceived less as netorase and more netorare.

Here is one such choice in my game. To make things interesting, I’ll use the example of a vanilla scene.

Spoiler: Not really a spoiler, only click if you want to know how I approach it.

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[_Grotest_]

As time goes by, I've come to the realisation that NTR community is quite divisive, as everything else, really. As you can see, every time the Nebel topic comes up, there are people who hate it and then there are people like me who like it. Personally, I don't think it's difficult skill-wise but it was very underexplained. Those who like it can chalk it up as a way for player to experience the frustration of the protagonist, having to figure out hidden game mechanics in multiple attempts to get the true end (or at least I think so, with my very biased view). The other side just calls it poor game design, not worth their time.

But then, once players know what to do, avoiding NTR became super easy, and you have to deliberately play bad for it to happen. Thankfully, the dungeons get harder if you clear it quickly, so at least Kana can still be molested accidentally. However, the dungeon scenes, or CCTV scenes are random, you might not get what you aimed for so it might not be fun for some people. The night scenes are also random (I don't know why the dev decided to remove the orb to select what event would happen in ver 1.2) and remain easy to avoid.

Your post accurately pinpointed my opinion of Nebel. I love this game but it definitely lacked a lot of explanatiion or direction. Trying to figure out how to progress plot and get to true ending is really frustrating. Gameplay wise I loved it except grind and seal combat(I ended up just using MCs AOE attack that uses up all mana through all game). It's fairly difficult and pretty good for NTR feeling imo but once you fully know how every mechanic works it gets much easier. This game really scratched my itch for difficult avoidable NTR gameplay.

 

[Kulman]

It's obvious that to create a 10/10, or even a 9/10 game, a “highly-rated story” is a must-have. However, first, I can also argue against this point, that “gameplay” holds equivalent value. Second, I'm not currently talking about creating a “masterpiece”, but just a “good”, or at most, a “great” NTR game, and I'm trying to speak objectively here, because subjectively, Nebel is already a masterpiece in my heart.


Regarding this, I will neither agree nor disagree with your opinion. Simply because it's leaning more towards a subjective perspective. Just like how you don't like Nebel as much as NTRPG2, while it's the opposite for me.

Nebel certainly doesn't have a “highly-rated story”, but hey, I never said it didn't have a good story. Similar to RinaTest, in terms of overall story, it's only at a 6/10, but it did its job well: perfectly complementing the “gameplay”, rationalizing decisions, creating conditions to showcase the game mechanics, and giving those mechanics the necessary weight, thereby elevating itself significantly. Because as you said: “Even just a small interaction between characters and how that develops is a story”, and I'm pretty sure that the process of observing the heroine in Nebel also counts.

That's exactly what I meant when I said, “A good NTR game doesn”t necessarily need a highly-rated story”. It doesn't need a highly-rated story; just a good story is enough. Other than binary stuff like "does the game even run".

In the debate on this topic, I once said, “In my opinion, a good NTR game is one that expresses the NTR element in the best possible way”. Therefore, even though I've been arguing (?) with you this whole time, my stance could just as easily be modified to: “A good NTR game doesn't necessarily need a highly-rated gameplay”. Every game has a different approach, and all those approaches are equally good if they are “expressed” in the best possible way. Nothing is perfect, so no single approach is the “best”.

So, in summary, the only thing I want you to take away from this is to observe things more objectively. I'm not saying all the games you find bad are actually good and just coincidentally not for you. But at least I hope that you will consider that possibility a bit more carefully.

Its art, nobody can be really objective. Debating/demanding objectivity seems kinda pointless.

 

[hoochimama]

If you can avoid it, well then is it really an NTR game?

Does one false note mean music stops being music?

Of course it can still be NTR.

In practice, NTR players are always going to have to engage in some form of cognitive dissonance like that in order to enjoy fetishes like NTR or rape of the MC where something gets done to them/the protagonist against their will. Even when the NTR is unavoidable you're still engaging in that cognitive dissonance simply by knowingly choosing to play the unavoidable NTR game.

These ways to classify things aren't absolutes, they exist on a spectrum. Not all NTR is the same and a game can give you a lesser or greater NTR kick depending on several factors.

A game where the NTR is unavoidable is going to provide a greater NTR kick than one where it is easily avoided. A game that only needs you to enable NTR once, at the start of the game, for it to happen several hours later is going to provide a stronger NTR kick than one where you need to knowingly pick the NTR option right before the NTR scene happens. A game that NTRs an MC who did everything in his power to not get NTRed is going to provide a greater NTR kick than one where NTR only happens to an MC who acts like an ass and antagonizes or endangers his love interest. A game where you only control the character who gets NTRed is going to provide a greater NTR kick than one where you additionally control the LI and explicitly have to make her cheat on MC.

So how many bad notes does it take? When does music stop being music? When the music lovers leave and the only people left are those who enjoy noise (NTS fans).

 

[Lupiscanis]

Didn't want to detract from the general discussion but just wanted to comment on something :

As time goes by, I've come to the realisation that NTR community is quite divisive, as everything else, really.

I think the issue lies with Netorare being such a broad term. Not including the travesty that is the tagging system on this site sometimes (wru tag rework) Netorare is very unlike a simple tag such as 'vaginal sex' where you know what you're getting.

Netorare can range from a weak bullied MC getting their love interests taken from them while they acquiesce submissively and everyone humiliates them to a strong MC that is fighting the good fight against the hordes of evil, not noticing that their loving one(s) is/are being corrupted by a pair of succubi - and everything inbetween.

Yes the implicit betrayal and often humiliation are very much the core of the experience but it's an incredibly wide tag.

This doesn't even touch on the misuse of the tag or my personal favourite, BSS.