Ntr OR Harem

[Chalker]

He has seduced in there, it's not just rape.
He just points out the similarities.

Spoiler: Question Harem lovers ask themselves after reading

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Yeah, and other than that one point, most of it is utterly wrong, it's like saying:

>guys mcdonalds and a Chinese restaurants are similar
>mcdonalds has burgers, fries, and water
>A Chinese restaurant has burgers, fries and water

Sure, some Chinese restaurants might serve burgers and fries... but most don't, you can't just turn around and say the statement was true because he included water.

I dont get why the ntr side is so instant about the "similarities", they're quite literally made to appeal to a complete different set of emotions by doing completely different things. Metal and country aren't two sides of the same coin just because they both use stringed instruments.

 

[Jaike]

Feel some are playing a bit fast and loose with the definitions here. Netorare goes further than someone cheating on and leaving the MC. Harems are more extreme than just a truple, though my favourite game ironically has just that ending and "calls" it a harem.

Something, something evil forum user who likes different stuff than he does was mean to the poor people who are oh so innocent, i think. Didn't really read either...

Please don't do that. Read their post actually before you try to characterise it. You know it, staring into the abyss stuff...

Because you might not know but many threads go through shitstorms and pages of comments are deleted.

So you might think it was only 1 post but usually they go on for pages until being deleted... So yeah, on this note you probably were uninformed.

Also many of those people "defending" ntr aren't even into ntr themselves, they are just tired of seeing people crying about it in every thread. But you calling that person a "cuck" clearly signals that you already made up your mind about him...

Don't know the thread and you're right it often, but assuming you know more than someone who's read a thread is always a little risky. But you're correct about his use of "cuck".

Reading through this thread made me realize something interesting.

As someone very nicely put it earlier NTR and Harem fans are 2 sides of the same coin. In fact we are so alike that we don't want to admit it because it hurts our egos or something.

> Harem: You take females for yourself in order to trigger positive feelings (a sense of acomplishment, conquer, etc.)
> NTR: The females are taken from you in order to trigger negative feelings (anger, jealousy, etc.)

> Harem: Females are creeped on, seduced, blackmailed or raped by the protagonist.
> NTR: Females are creeped on, seduced, blackmailed or raped by the antagonist.

Let's be honest both genres have unrealistic settings most of the time, and their fair share of shitty games.

Imo depends on if you include netorase in NTR or not, but your comparisons suggests you mean netorare and I think the "2 sides of the same coin" line is overstated. "You take" LIs "for yourself" is not parallel to LI "are taken from you". Sadly you're right many harem games have creep show MCs and silly tattered plots.

The claim that netorare is analogical to harem is overdone. If anything a harem game usually ends up like netorase from the LIs' view. And if it's a same-sex harem (yes, super rare) where everyone shares everyone that's not even the case. And there's no "stealing" most of the time in harem games unless it's also a netori game, even then devs often go for the bad partner trope to justify it. Another difference is compatibility with romance, the harem genre is moderately compatible with romance if it's not overdone with "one true love" talk all the time, netorare is a subgenre of hard corruption so it combines in practice poorly with romance.

I'm the first to admit many harem and netorare games alike are crappy and that the crappy ones share many of the same flaws, like big magic penis seduction, black hole personalities who spent all points on luck, incoherent characters and overreliance on poorly written coercion. Dark and edgy harem games resemble that in particular. An example of a poor edgy harem game with all these flaws is Isis. Though my experience is that netorare games tend to rely a lot more on idiotic rape tropes that looks like shit from incel ideology. Hell, netorare fans subcategorised the genre based on rape.

 

[E_O_N]

Yeah, and other than that one point, most of it is utterly wrong, it's like saying:

>guys mcdonalds and a Chinese restaurants are similar
>mcdonalds has burgers, fries, and water
>A Chinese restaurant has burgers, fries and water

Sure, some Chinese restaurants might serve burgers and fries... but most don't, you can't just turn around and say the statement was true because he included water.

I dont get why the ntr side is so instant about the "similarities", they're quite literally made to appeal to a complete different set of emotions by doing completely different things. Metal and country aren't two sides of the same coin just because they both use stringed instruments.

I support both things and have dedicated patreon pages for "light" and "dark".
But harem games are kind of fucked up, if you spend more than a second thinking about it. While ntr games feel fucked up without thinking about it and are less evil if you take the second to think.

Ntr can be a triangle, with one person suffering. Harem in reality has many, many people suffering.
And that at some point dark evil shit would be necessary to get number 4 into your harem, is obvious.
I am not talking about the games that exist, but the tag that demands it.

Obviously you can make games where everyone is "magically ok" with what happens. Again, just don't turn on your thinking capabilities if you have any.

But from another side. Who said it's not ok to have fun with a corrupted storyline? As long as you can separate it from your real life, you'll be fine.

Harem and Ntr are vanilla things. Be happy you are not into scat, Beastiality and others I hope I will never learn about and if you are, hope to god you can separate it from your actual life.
Because that would be the place where all the issues start. (*trying not to look towards the lolis*)

 

[Chalker]

I support both things and have dedicated patreon pages for "light" and "dark".
But harem games are kind of fucked up, if you spend more than a second thinking about it. While ntr games feel fucked up without thinking about it and are less evil if you take the second to think.

Ntr can be a triangle, with one person suffering. Harem in reality has many, many people suffering.
And that at some point dark evil shit would be necessary to get number 4 into your harem, is obvious.
I am not talking about the games that exist, but the tag that demands it.

Obviously you can make games where everyone is "magically ok" with what happens. Again, just don't turn on your thinking capabilities if you have any.

But from another side. Who said it's not ok to have fun with a corrupted storyline? As long as you can separate it from your real life, you'll be fine.

Harem and Ntr are vanilla things. Be happy you are not into scat, Beastiality and others I hope I will never learn about and if you are, hope to god you can separate it from your actual life.
Because that would be the place where all the issues start. (*trying not to look towards the lolis*)

You're argument keeps bouncing from "harems in reality are cruel" to "seperare it from real life lol."

No one is denying that harem in real life is a cruel thing usually enforced by a religious doctrine. But that's not the case in games.

In most harem games there is no cruelty, trying to shoehorn realism into your headcanon doesn't make harem a cruel genre. Trying to argue that it is is utterly silly.

Ntr is always a cruel thing because the fetish is about sparking jealousy, ntr will never be not cruel because if it's not it no longer is ntr.

Saying that ntr is less cruel than harem in games is a complete fabrication and only works if you apply realistic standards to unrealistic scenarios.

 

[Catapo]

But that's quite literally not the case for the high majority of Harem games. Most of them are fully consensual from start to finish. Sure some have corruption elements but those are in the minority.

Majority of ntr falls into the type B and C categories (according to VNDB), which is all about the glorification and fetishising of rape.

Comparing the minority of harem games to the majority of NTR games and saying they're the same is simply inaccurate.

Ok,I admit the whole "sides of the same coin" was a bit exaggerated and mostly written as a joke.

You claim that most harem games are consensual and most NTR are darker but you can't deny that there are games who are the exact opposite in both sides.

The actual point I was trying to make in the end was the whole "agree to disagree".
That prefering harem games doesn't make you superior in regards to other genres as it seems to be the feeling I am getting in regards to the original poll.

 

[E_O_N]

You're argument keeps bouncing from "harems in reality are cruel" to "seperare it from real life lol."

No one is denying that harem in real life is a cruel thing usually enforced by a religious doctrine. But that's not the case in games.

Hmm I expected better of you, you start with a personal attack and by miss-quoting.
We are discussing the tag. We are not discussing certain implementations at this point. But I have played a lot of Harem games. My point still stands. Either don't think or have to assume that several characters would be severely hurt by what's going on.

In most harem games there is no cruelty, trying to shoehorn realism into your headcanon doesn't make harem a cruel genre. Trying to argue that it is is utterly silly.

You yourself state, that it would be cruel in real life. That is all there is to.

Rape is also cruel in real life and you can implement it in a way where both enjoy it. Does it mean it's not cruel anymore? That is left to you.

But don't try to ride your moral high horse. Your moral high horse is a toy donkey.

 

[Chalker]

Hmm I expected better of you, you start with a personal attack and by miss-quoting.
We are discussing the tag. We are not discussing certain implementations at this point. But I have played a lot of Harem games. My point still stands. Either don't think or have to assume that several characters would be severely hurt by what's going on.




You yourself state, that it would be cruel in real life. That is all there is to.

Rape is also cruel in real life and you can implement it in a way where both enjoy it. Does it mean it's not cruel anymore? That is left to you.

But don't try to ride your moral high horse. Your moral high horse is a toy donkey.

I didn't mean for any comment to come of as a jab at you as a person, and if it did I apologize.

I'm not riding any moral high horse, but no matter how you spin it, most ntr games focus on rape in one way or another. You said yourself "While ntr games feel fucked up without thinking about it and are less evil if you take the second to think." That is utterly insane, I would say raping someone in any setting of realism is multiple fold worse than manipulating multiple people into an overall normal-ish dating dynamic.

Sure a harem can be cruel, because the dynamic you have in one is open ended, and can gauge the cruelty to whatever the writer desires.

Ntr cannot be not cruel, because it FORCES the dynamic to be a cruel one and has atleast the guy getting his partner stolen suffering, and most of the time the person being stolen also suffering rape.

But I dont think we can chance eachothers minds, so let's leave it at that.

 

[Meaning Less]

most of the time the person being stolen also suffering rape.

Well if you call the antagonist manipulation "rape" then you basically would also have to call the protagonist manipulation from most harem games rape. Because they usually employ the exact same strategy, showing their dicks is enough for girls to stop resisting...

As some interesting stats:
It seems like from a total of 830 ntr games, 225 have the rape tag. (27%)
Now from a total of 1046 harem games, 211 have rape. (20%)
There are 10342 non-ntr non-harem games, 2096 have rape. (20%)

Percentage of rape seem close to 20% in general...

I'm not sure why you are assuming that rape is the only way to ntr someone but in most cases manipulation is what is employed, and the girls from ntr games much like the girls from harem games need very little to be convinced.

 

[Jaike]

Well if you call the antagonist manipulation "rape" then you basically would also have to call the protagonist manipulation from most harem games rape. Because they usually employ the exact same strategy, showing their dicks is enough for girls to stop resisting...

As some interesting stats:
It seems like from a total of 830 ntr games, 225 have the rape tag. (27%)
Now from a total of 1046 harem games, 211 have rape. (20%)
There are 10342 non-ntr non-harem games, 2096 have rape. (20%)

Percentage of rape seem close to 20% in general...

I'm not sure why you are assuming that rape is the only way to ntr someone but in most cases manipulation is what is employed, and the girls from ntr games much like the girls from harem games need very little to be convinced.

The rape tag doesn't really correspond to what normal western human beings call rape. It's just used as a fetish tag.

He also pointed at results from VNDB.

 

[Chalker]

Well if you call the antagonist manipulation "rape" then you basically would also have to call the protagonist manipulation from most harem games rape. Because they usually employ the exact same strategy, showing their dicks is enough for girls to stop resisting...

As some interesting stats:
It seems like from a total of 830 ntr games, 225 have the rape tag. (27%)
Now from a total of 1046 harem games, 211 have rape. (20%)
There are 10342 non-ntr non-harem games, 2096 have rape. (20%)

Percentage of rape seem close to 20% in general...

I'm not sure why you are assuming that rape is the only way to ntr someone but in most cases manipulation is what is employed, and the girls from ntr games much like the girls from harem games need very little to be convinced.

Because for the most part, rape is not tagged for a large part. Dubious consent and consent under duress is not tagged with rape. Manipulation is still rape.

For some stats:

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VNDB lists 309 ntr games in the two rape categories, B and C. And only 181 in the normal cheating one. So 63% of NTR visual novels are centered around rape or manipulation.

Personally I find most of the tags on f95 utterly meaningless and the ones on VNDB way more accurate, but that's up for debate.

 

[Meaning Less]

He also pointed at results from VNDB.

If you read VNDB, type

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is not just rape, but even manipulation leading to consensual sex, which is the most used tactic.

Type

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is the only one where RAPE is always used, but those games are a lot rarer to come by.

Because for the most part, rape is not tagged for a large part. Dubious consent and consent under duress is not tagged with rape. Manipulation is still rape.

And this same argument would apply to harem games. Most of them would be tagged as rape because they employ the same manipulation tactics if you want to consider them rape...

 

[Chalker]

And this same argument would apply to harem games. Most of them would be tagged as rape because they employ the same manipulation tactics if you want to consider them rape...

Not really, most harem games use (a very shitty but somehow effective) natural charm or something to do with seduction, uncommonly gaslighting.

Ntr is usually around blackmail, threats, coercion or the use of mind altering substances.

Seducing someone isn't rape, the latter mentioned are.

 

[Otaku Gamer]

Reading through this thread made me realize something interesting.

As someone very nicely put it earlier NTR and Harem fans are 2 sides of the same coin. In fact we are so alike that we don't want to admit it because it hurts our egos or something.

> Harem: You take females for yourself in order to trigger positive feelings (a sense of acomplishment, conquer, etc.)
> NTR: The females are taken from you in order to trigger negative feelings (anger, jealousy, etc.)

> Harem: Females are creeped on, seduced, blackmailed or raped by the protagonist.
> NTR: Females are creeped on, seduced, blackmailed or raped by the antagonist.

Let's be honest both genres have unrealistic settings most of the time, and their fair share of shitty games. Obviously someone who likes harem games is not going to go out of their way to find good NTR games and vice versa. Players from both sides made their minds about the other genre already.

Taking a review from a random NTR game and claiming that 99% of NTR games are trash is an extremely dumb take because the same can be done to harem games.

Both player sides start unnecessary toxic shit in game threads so no arguments here.

I am on the NTR side so I expect to be called a 'cuck' that is why i suggest we call harem fans 'manwhores' to complete the parallels between us

This entire thread should just be let's agree to disagree.

Cuck(●'◡'●)

 

[Meaning Less]

Not really, most harem games use (a very shitty but somehow effective) natural charm or something to do with seduction, uncommonly gaslighting.

You mean, exactly like every ntr game antagonist?

Ntr is usually around blackmail, threats, coercion or the use of mind altering substances.

Again... you are giving a biased opinion of someone that doesn't play those games. Anyone that plays both genres will most likely notice the behavioral similarities of both archetypes.

There is a reason why people that claim to hate netorare don't mind or even enjoy netori as well...

 

[Uthuriel]

There is a reason why people that claim to hate netorare don't mind or even enjoy netori as well...

That's a very basic statement...
I don't like any of the neto-somethings... so not everyone is the same.

 

[Hitler's Left Testie]

Well I am ntrphobic don't like ntr coz it destroy the trust between characters well on other side harem guarantee trust and loyalty may sound scum but thats my opinion

 

[おい！]

Cuck(●'◡'●)

 

[Chalker]

You mean, exactly like every ntr game antagonist?

Again... you are giving a biased opinion of someone that doesn't play those games. Anyone that plays both genres will most likely notice the behavioral similarities of both archetypes.

There is a reason why people that claim to hate netorare don't mind or even enjoy netori as well...

My experience with the genre comes mostly from massive bazillion fetish Japanese VNs or doujins and that's pretty much all I saw when it came to ntr.

And I've always disliked netori, people who cheat are gross and stinky.

 

[Meaning Less]

And I've always disliked netori, people who cheat are gross and stinky.

They are not cheating, they are being seduced into switching partners .

 

[Chalker]

They are not cheating, they are being seduced into switching partners .