VN Ren'Py Our Red String [Ch. 12.3 Alpha] [Eva Kiss]

[ekroniuk]

But not with Mike and not towards the people that are directly hurt (his girlfriend, Ian doesn't even need to be in a relationship with Lena).

Does Ian feels empathy towards Miranda's husband?

 

[NebulousShooter]

Lena did not meet Mike's girlfriend so there is of course the lack of empathy towards someone you never met. Both Lena and Ian show different level of guilt depending on people affected by their actions and how you play them. If your characters do not show remorse then that is the fault of how you decided to play them.

Lena got cheated on and its still mad at Cherry, but then proceeds to not care she is the Cherry in other relationships

 

[Gicoo]

Does Ian feels empathy towards Miranda's husband?

No, but he should, if we consider how heart-broken he is about Gillians infidelity.

 

[JohnnyKiss]

Lena got cheated on and its still mad at Cherry, but then proceeds to not care she is the Cherry in other relationships

Ian got cheated on and is still mad at Gillian, but then proceeds to not care he does the same to other guys.

And, again, this only happens IF you choose to do so. You can make Lena simply NOT do this and the whole "hypocrisy" thing is avoided. Maybe some players just don't care about it?

 

[JohnnyKiss]

No, Lena shows never empathy or reflection on how she acts similar as Cherry if she is with Mike. And she is still always mad at Axel and Cherry whenever they show up, even though she can potentially act this crude.

Lena does show empathy, I am just not sure if it's specifically when it comes to Mike, but she definitely does.

 

[Gicoo]

Lena does show empathy, I am just not sure if it's specifically when it comes to Mike, but she definitely does.

Where? Whenever she discusses Mikes girlfriend with him, she insults her indirectly. And whenever she talks with Ivy about this, she gloats.

 

[ffive]

Lena got cheated on and its still mad at Cherry, but then proceeds to not care she is the Cherry in other relationships

I'll concede this one; i've found the lack of self-reflection about this situation similarly disappointing. There's some tiny bits of it but they're basically in the middle of the act and immediately swept under the rug of Lena being too horny to care and finding the arrangement an actual extra turn on. But she never gives it a thought otherwise, the way she's conflicted post her sex with Axel. It'd be nice if she did, double so because it'd give her some reasons to explore her feelings about Cherry.

 

[Samuel Hidayat]

I don't know if the author wants to add some social commentary, or its just their idea of a male power fantasy but my God does it paints women in a bad light, especially the latter 2 points I made. If this is the author arguing that females should be allowed and not looked down by society by acting that way, I am sorry but that ain't it, no matter how many cringy terminology you splatter all over your VN, thats just feminist and liberal cope, there is nothing empowering about selling your butthole pics for the price of a cheeseburger, I think its applaudable that you make easy money from the safety of your house, but stop trying to pretend that the act itself is something worth admiring.

The game is actually pretty neutral in depicting its female characters. Let's take Ivy as an example. You have characters who are fully against her lifestyle like Louise, Good Jessica, and even Lena if you want to. A feminist game wouldn't even try to create characters than go against Ivy, and even if they do exist, they'll get punished in some way for not agreeing with her.

Justifying using StalkFap to make money as an empowerment is more on character per character basis. Ivy of course considers it as such, but Louise and (optional) Lena can shamed her for it. The game never tries to convince you that making money that way is all great and empowering, only certain characters that fit their personalities do.

 

[NebulousShooter]

The game is actually pretty neutral in depicting its female characters. Let's take Ivy as an example. You have characters who are fully against her lifestyle like Louise, Good Jessica, and even Lena if you want to. A feminist game wouldn't even try to create characters than go against Ivy, and even if they do exist, they'll get punished in some way for not agreeing with her.

Justifying using StalkFap to make money as an empowerment is more on character per character basis. Ivy of course considers it as such, but Louise and (optional) Lena can shamed her for it. The game never tries to convince you that making money that way is all great and empowering, only certain characters that fit their personalities.

Ivy is one of the most consistent characters, her and Cindy are my favorite, in more ways than one. Maybe my perception is skewed since I played Lesbian Lena first and Ivy was obviously a big focus, but to me It seemed to have the message that society is wrong and that type of behavior should be lauded a bit too in your face to ignore.

I am not familiar with the author's other work, so I said maybe, but it could be the case of just trope writing of the usual female MC, corruption, blackmail, sexual harassment, like almost every other female MC game in here.

 

[SerHawkes]

They are game characters. Get over it.

Congrats on not having a valid rebuttal. Good job, good effort there bucko.

 

[JohnnyKiss]

bucko.

My man really said "bucko". That explains your action a lot considering it reveals the people you listen to.

 

[JohnnyKiss]

Where? Whenever she discusses Mikes girlfriend with him, she insults her indirectly. And whenever she talks with Ivy about this, she gloats.

Lena feels remorse when cheating in Chapter 11 prologue, it's just not regarding to Mike specifically. In fact, the game teases that her actions would soon have consequences. There is also her refusal to get into a relationship with Ian if she fucks Jeremy. I don't have to list every single instance to prove my point, this should be enough (but it clearly isn't as you have completely ignored it).

Lay off hating on fictional women. It's not healthy for you.

 

[SerHawkes]

Man really said "bucko". That explains your action a lot considering it reveals the people you listen to.

To quote the Legend: Have a take, don't suck.

 

[Samuel Hidayat]

Ivy is one of the most consistent characters, her and Cindy are my favorite, in more ways than one. Maybe my perception is skewed since I played Lesbian Lena first and Ivy was obviously a big focus, but to me It seemed to have the message that society is wrong and that type of behavior should be lauded a bit too in your face to ignore.

If you're spending most of your time with Ivy, of course you're going to be bombarded with her lifestyle and personality. Pretty sure Lesbian Lena has Louise to play with, so her existence should've provided a balanced POV.

I am not familiar with the author's other work, so I said maybe, but it could be the case of just trope writing of the usual female MC, corruption, blackmail, sexual harassment, like almost every other female MC game in here.

The more corrupted a person is, the more they try to justify themselves. Nothing wrong with that, and it's not exclusive to Fem MC games. You should try out The Monastery to experience an extreme example of this, but from Male MC.

 

[JohnnyKiss]

To quote the Legend: Have a take, don't suck.

To quote the "Legend": 'I dreamed I saw my maternal grandmother sitting by the bank of a swimming pool, that was also a river... Her genital region was exposed, dimly; it had the appearance of a thick mat of hair. She was stroking herself, absent-mindedly. She walked over to me, with a handful of pubic hair, compacted into something resembling a large artist’s paint-brush. She pushed this at my face. I raised my arm, several times, to deflect her hand; finally, unwilling to hurt her, or interfere with her any farther, I let her have her way. She stroked my face with the brush, gently, and said, like a child, “isn’t it soft?” I looked at her ruined face and said, “yes, Grandma, it’s soft.”'

This your guy?

 

[Gicoo]

Lena feels remorse when cheating in Chapter 11 prologue, it's just not regarding to Mike specifically. In fact, the game teases that her actions would soon have consequences. There is also her refusal to get into a relationship with Ian if she fucks Jeremy. I don't have to list every single instance to prove my point, this should be enough (but it clearly isn't as you have completely ignored it).

Lay off hating on fictional women. It's not healthy for you.

Never once did I critize Lena on her behavior on the Axel/Jeremy/Ian path, this is a strawman/moving goal post technique on your behalf. She acknowledges her cheating there and her character is consistent in that regard.

My problem isn't so much "Ian and Lena were cheated on, hence they aren't allowed to cheat themselves, it would make them hypocrites", but if they do it, they need to adress these issues and admit that they have sunk to a similar level Axel/Cherry/Gillian etc. Ian admits this on the Cindy path and that path is overall decent at showing the slow decent and his hesitation/conflicted feelings, unlike Lena jumping at Mike during their first meeting. As pointed out, he doesn't do this on the Minerva path and I agree that this is a flaw and he should acknowledge it, if he's still meant to be portrayed sympathetic about his break-up with Gillian.

Lena adresses her potentially cheating on Ian on multiple paths like with Jeremy and Mike, she has the decency to get in an open relationship. Even when succumbing to Axel, she thinks about Ian with guilt.

But on the Mike path, there is no instance of her reflecting how she act like Cherry. And regardless how you play Lena, she's always furious at Axel and Cherry, even when she is on the path to be some remorseless seductress herself.

 

[JohnnyKiss]

this is a strawman/moving goal post technique on your behalf.

It's not that serious, bro.

I already told you, Lena does not react to every action the same because she lacks the empathy towards Mike's Gf as she does not know her, just how Ian shows no emathy towards his boss' husband as he does not know him.

You are expecting for every character to react the same exact way to different situations, which is laughable.

 

[JohnnyKiss]

More like you pushing your fantasy sex life into public. Good talk though.

Yeah, Ian's dad is one disturbing individual. Those benzos are doing him no favors

 

[Doppelgang]

I’m surprised at how often this discussion comes up about Lena’s hypocrisy. Both she and Ian have been cheated on and struggle to cope with it, but Lena’s hurt feelings first and foremost manifest as anger, while Ian’s similar feelings make him bummed out. So they cope with it differently (though not that differently; they can both choose to fuck more or less every person they find attractive) and justify their actions in different ways.

Yes, Lena does exactly what Axel and Cherry did to her, and it’s a shitty thing to do. But it’s also a very understandable coping mechanism (if not the healthiest). And what does a kid do if they’re bullied in school? They’ll quite likely find another kid to bully themselves, to cope with all of it and maintain a standing within some kind of real or imagined hierarchy that you don’t want to be at the bottom of. And then they find some way to justify it to themselves, because it’s a shitty thing to do. People justify things to themselves or blame others all the time when they do something that doesn’t fit with their image of themselves. And when you’re 23, like Lena, your image of yourself (and also who you actually are) is still very much being shaped.

Almost everyone close to Lena, except Ivy, expects her to act nice and dutifully and be a good girl. Lena mainly sees herself that way too, but there’s a giant gap between that and her anger at Axel and Cherry and her almost nymphomaniac side. So when she crosses the line of how she and her family, friends and colleagues expects her to act, it easily spirals out of control. I think all of this generally is very good portrayed, and easily believable, though I admit the story would be better of if Lena sometimes reflected more on her own hypocrisy.

This whole idea that Lena can do so much more than Ian without any consequences, is also very exaggerated. One thing I’ll concede, is that Lena probably will have a path where she can make Ian forgive her for much more than she’ll herself forgive him for; based on the new cuck variable, how Lena could get an extra thrill from cheating, and how Ian could act more resigned (while Lena gets angry) about being treated badly. So yes, we’ll quite likely get a path where Lena can do more or less what she wants and get away with it, while Ian has nowhere near the same freedom. And then this discussion will come back, with increased intensity.

But Lena also has a submissive side, and Ian has a chad variable that is starting to affect the story more, so not even that imbalance seems a given. Another aspect is how the two of them end up if they’re betrayed by the other. Ian still has a big group of friends, a lot of obvious love interests and a father who supports him financially. Lena has her two roommates, who both are slightly crazy; Ivy, who cares about her but definitely also has some fishy stuff going on; a family she has to support instead of get support from; and a crowd of sleazy guys who circle around her without being interested in much more than her body.

Ian is worse off than Lena in some ways, other times it’s different. In the Patreon Q&A’s Eva has written about how she sees the two paths, and why they’re not supposed to be parallel/identical. I don’t see the reason why they should be (except that it might feel unfair if you’re playing mainly for one of the protagonists), and either way it would be an unconstructive limitation to the story if Eva constantly had to make sure to balance the two stories out.

 

[JohnnyKiss]

I’m surprised at how often this discussion comes up about Lena’s hypocrisy. Both she and Ian have been cheated on and struggle to cope with it, but Lena’s hurt feelings first and foremost manifest as anger, while Ian’s similar feelings make him bummed out. So they cope with it differently (though not that differently; they can both choose to fuck more or less every person they find attractive) and justify their actions in different ways.

Yes, Lena does exactly what Axel and Cherry did to her, and it’s a shitty thing to do. But it’s also a very understandable coping mechanism (if not the healthiest). And what does a kid do if they’re bullied in school? They’ll quite likely find another kid to bully themselves, to cope with all of it and maintain a standing within some kind of real or imagined hierarchy that you don’t want to be at the bottom of. And then they find some way to justify it to themselves, because it’s a shitty thing to do. People justify things to themselves or blame others all the time when they do something that doesn’t fit with their image of themselves. And when you’re 23, like Lena, your image of yourself (and also who you actually are) is still very much being shaped.

Almost everyone close to Lena, except Ivy, expects her to act nice and dutifully and be a good girl. Lena mainly sees herself that way too, but there’s a giant gap between that and her anger at Axel and Cherry and her almost nymphomaniac side. So when she crosses the line of how she and her family, friends and colleagues expects her to act, it easily spirals out of control. I think all of this generally is very good portrayed, and easily believable, though I admit the story would be better of if Lena sometimes reflected more on her own hypocrisy.

This whole idea that Lena can do so much more than Ian without any consequences, is also very exaggerated. One thing I’ll concede, is that Lena probably will have a path where she can make Ian forgive her for much more than she’ll herself forgive him for; based on the new cuck variable, how Lena could get an extra thrill from cheating, and how Ian could act more resigned (while Lena gets angry) about being treated badly. So yes, we’ll quite likely get a path where Lena can do more or less what she wants and get away with it, while Ian has nowhere near the same freedom. And then this discussion will come back, with increased intensity.

But Lena also has a submissive side, and Ian has a chad variable that is starting to affect the story more, so not even that imbalance seems a given. Another aspect is how the two of them end up if they’re betrayed by the other. Ian still has a big group of friends, a lot of obvious love interests and a father who supports him financially. Lena has her two roommates, who both are slightly crazy; Ivy, who cares about her but definitely also has some fishy stuff going on; a family she has to support instead of get support from; and a crowd of sleazy guys who circle around her without being interested in much more than her body.

Ian is worse off than Lena in some ways, other times it’s different. In the Patreon Q&A’s Eva has written about how she sees the two paths, and why they’re not supposed to be parallel/identical. I don’t see the reason why they should be (except that it might feel unfair if you’re playing mainly for one of the protagonists), and either way it would be an unconstructive limitation to the story if Eva constantly had to make sure to balance the two stories out.

The hate for Lena is immediately understood if you understand what kind of individuals constantly complain about it. Even if the game gives you tons of option what you want your characters to do and say, they still complain about it being an option. This shows an incredibly insecurity, in some cases probably (but lets be real, probably not) caused by their previous bad experiences with partners.

That coupled with the terms and words used, like "bucko" and "females', and you can immediately tell where this obsession comes from.