VN Ren'Py Our Red String [Ch. 12.3 Alpha] [Eva Kiss]

[fatpussy123]

Regardless of how the player feels IRL about the themes used in Lena's corruption, it is still important to emphasize that Lena's character already starts with an established value that artistic modelling should not devolve into sex work, and both StalkFap and Seymour's route tempt Lena into selling out and to betray that value as they both start under the prerrogative of just being alternative ways of promoting and developing her modelling career.

Had both of those routes been presented as sex work from the start, perhaps the player could have explored them as a way of tailoring how Lena's character feels about sex work without it necessarily being "corruption", but the fact they are both about perverting her initial artistic values makes the corruption tropes pretty evident, regardless of if the player is having their Lena enjoy herself and dive headfirst, or if they are having her begrudgingly dragged into it.

How the player sees that shift is still important for whether or not it is corruption. Lena changing or going against her values alone does not constitute corruption. The end-state has to be seen by the player as bad.

As an example imagine if someone had a friend who would watch movies because they are the work of the devil. Now if that someone eventually convinced the friend to watch movies with them and the friend changed their opinion on whether or not movies are the devil's work, would that be corruption? No, because from our outside perspective we have an opinion on the end-state as not being bad. Same with Lena, if someone doesn't see a problem with Lena mixing sexuality with her artistic integrity, then they wouldn't see what she is doing as getting corrupted, rather just Lena changing her perspective.

Corruption is to some extent defined by the player's morality. Most people have broad shared values on this stuff though, which is why most corruption content is agreed upon as being corruption, such as enjoying blackmail, rape, and cheating on ones partner. The player sees those things as being bad and therefore as the character being corrupted.

Even Ian has corruption content that meets this threshold with Wade and Cindy. Everyone would agree that banging your friends girl behind his back is a bad person thing to do and Ian initially has reservations, but eventually succumbs to the Cindy gorilla grip.

 

[manscout]

As an example imagine if someone had a friend who would watch movies because they are the work of the devil. Now if that someone eventually convinced the friend to watch movies with them and the friend changed their opinion on whether or not movies are the devil's work, would that be corruption? No, because from our outside perspective we have an opinion on the end-state as not being bad. Same with Lena, if someone doesn't see a problem with Lena mixing sexuality with her artistic integrity, then they wouldn't see what she is doing as getting corrupted, rather just Lena changing her perspective.

I'd still see it as "corruption" if the method of "convincement" involved bribery, threats, blackmail, and other forms of manipulative coercement. For example I don't have a problem with drinking alcohol, still does not sit right with me to see someone peer pressured and borderline bullied into drinking when they didn't want to.

The issue with your example is that "your friend believing movies are the work of the devil" sounds like something he would only get from religious indoctrination which would already be a form of "corruption". If you convinced them to change their mind on the merits of your arguments alone with no shady stuff, you'd basically be doing the reverse of corrupting them since you'd be helping them break free and assisting then into making up their own mind.

On the other hand if your friend just didn't want to watch movies for whatever quirky reason he came up with himself and you started to be really pushy, demeaning his lifestyle, threatening to cut him off, etc etc until he gave up and went along with what you wanted, then I'd say you were a "corrupting" influence regardless of good intentions and seemingly harmless results.

It is the difference between Ian and Lena convincing Holly that it is okay for her to be more confident in enjoying herself and Ivy basically calling her a no-life nerd if she doesn't start doing the things Ivy tells her to do.

 

[BloodyMares]

On the other hand if your friend just didn't want to watch movies for whatever quirky reason he came up with himself and you started to be really pushy, demeaning his lifestyle, threatening to cut him off, etc etc until he gave up and went along with what you wanted, then I'd say you were a "corrupting" influence regardless of good intentions and seemingly harmless results.

It is the difference between Ian and Lena convincing Holly that it is okay for her to be more confident in enjoying herself and Ivy basically calling her a no-life nerd if she doesn't start doing the things Ivy tells her to do.

My 2 cents: This distinction is not what separates corruption from non-corruptive influence. Is Ivy being a bitch to Holly by doing those things? Definitely. Is it what makes it corruption? Not really. Rather, it's the difference between Holly in point A and Holly in point B (shift in her morality). Lena can corrupt Holly, too, but in a much gentler and seductive way, cheering her on to be brave (and promiscuous / exhibitionist) which leads to the same result (Holly blowing Mark in a car). I'd say it counts as corruption because Mark is openly a player who simply follows Ivy's instructions and doesn't care about Holly's interests.

We all remember Lena's reaction when Ian acted this way with Holly, she was super-protective of her. But now, gently pushing Holly to have a one-night stand with a guy who thinks with his cock (who Holly is not even into), directly contradicts Lena's established morality. So not only Holly got corrupted by Lena, the player also corrupted Lena to not be as protective of Holly, pushing her towards casual sex with a guy but without demeaning Holly's self-worth, only tempting her with positive consequences if she does that (promise of improved confidence in her sexuality) which is totally manipulative but in a way that makes Holly happy, not insecure.

To sum-up, my understanding of corruption is that it has nothing to do with the player's morality or the attitude in which you go about it, but it's about the significant shift of the character's starting morality that makes them do things outside of their comfort zone and goes against their initial desires / goals. So by that formula: Holly wants to be beautiful, brave, and confident just like Lena and Ivy (she is envious of Lena even if you don't increase holly_change score, so that desire is intrinsic to her and is outside of player's control) but being promiscuous isn't in her plans and is clearly outside of her comfort zone. So, posing naked for Lena as an excercise for her self-confidence isn't corruption, because Lena only encourages Holly to do what she already wants or is curious about, but hooking up with Mark or Ivy falls under corruption because it adds promiscuity into the mix (and requires holly_change variable if we're being meta). Likewise, her desire is Ian but not a meaningless one-night stand - she's glad that it happened but still feels used by Ian. So sleeping with her by itself isn't corruption (it's what she wanted) but somehow convincing her to accept being Ian's side-piece (if that ever happens) would classify as corruption because it's something that Holly wouldn't go for initially.

The tricky thing with Lena though, is that we can't fully judge Lena's starting morality regarding sex because we're starting the game with her after she's already been with Axel. We don't know the full extent of her sexual adventures. It came as a huge surprise when Eva revealed that Lena used to be Axel's sub and thus having capacity to be perverted. Those polaroids were pornographic, and while they did that in private, it still lets us know that Lena is okay posing for private porn (that goes beyond her artistic modeling). And we don't really know if she had other boyfriends before Axel or just sexual experience we don't know about (besides Ivy and threesome with Cherry). So if we think of something as corruption at this point, some details may be revealed exposing that Lena can be much more perverted that we imagined, thus none of what has happened so far could be considered as corruption if she has done similar things before. The only obvious corruption with Lena so far is not really based on sexual activities but regarding her interactions with people or changing opinion about modeling / stalkfap. Seducing Louise's boyfriend and fucking him behind her back is an obvious corruption, so as hooking up with Mike knowing he has a girlfriend. Or treating Louise like a sex toy is also corruption of Lena's morality. Then, from posting only artistic modeling pictures to being okay posting lewd porn for money and thrill, without any artistic pretense is also corruption regardless of the player's views on it because Lena at the start of the game wouldn't be okay doing that, she needed Ivy to lead by example.

 

[manscout]

My 2 cents: This distinction is not what separates corruption from non-corruptive influence. Is Ivy being a bitch to Holly by doing those things? Definitely. Is it what makes it corruption? Not really. Rather, it's the difference between Holly in point A and Holly in point B (shift in her morality). Lena can corrupt Holly, too, but in a much gentler and seductive way, cheering her on to be brave (and promiscuous / exhibitionist) which leads to the same result (Holly blowing Mark in a car). I'd say it counts as corruption because Mark is openly a player who simply follows Ivy's instructions and doesn't care about Holly's interests.

We all remember Lena's reaction when Ian acted this way with Holly, she was super-protective of her. But now, gently pushing Holly to have a one-night stand with a guy who thinks with his cock (who Holly is not even into), directly contradicts Lena's established morality. So not only Holly got corrupted by Lena, the player also corrupted Lena to not be as protective of Holly, pushing her towards casual sex with a guy but without demeaning Holly's self-worth, only tempting her with positive consequences if she does that (promise of improved confidence in her sexuality) which is totally manipulative but in a way that makes Holly happy, not insecure.

To sum-up, my understanding of corruption is that it has nothing to do with the player's morality or the attitude in which you go about it, but it's about the significant shift of the character's starting morality that makes them do things outside of their comfort zone and goes against their initial desires / goals. So by that formula: Holly wants to be beautiful, brave, and confident just like Lena and Ivy (she is envious of Lena even if you don't increase holly_change score, so that desire is intrinsic to her and is outside of player's control) but being promiscuous isn't in her plans and is clearly outside of her comfort zone. So, posing naked for Lena as an excercise for her self-confidence isn't corruption, because Lena only encourages Holly to do what she already wants or is curious about, but hooking up with Mark or Ivy falls under corruption because it adds promiscuity into the mix (and requires holly_change variable if we're being meta). Likewise, her desire is Ian but not a meaningless one-night stand - she's glad that it happened but still feels used by Ian. So sleeping with her by itself isn't corruption (it's what she wanted) but somehow convincing her to accept being Ian's side-piece (if that ever happens) would classify as corruption because it's something that Holly wouldn't go for initially.

The tricky thing with Lena though, is that we can't fully judge Lena's starting morality regarding sex because we're starting the game with her after she's already been with Axel. We don't know the full extent of her sexual adventures. It came as a huge surprise when Eva revealed that Lena used to be Axel's sub and thus having capacity to be perverted. Those polaroids were pornographic, and while they did that in private, it still lets us know that Lena is okay posing for private porn (that goes beyond her artistic modeling). And we don't really know if she had other boyfriends before Axel or just sexual experience we don't know about (besides Ivy and threesome with Cherry). So if we think of something as corruption at this point, some details may be revealed exposing that Lena can be much more perverted that we imagined, thus none of what has happened so far could be considered as corruption if she has done similar things before. The only obvious corruption with Lena so far is not really based on sexual activities but regarding her interactions with people or changing opinion about modeling / stalkfap. Seducing Louise's boyfriend and fucking him behind her back is an obvious corruption, so as hooking up with Mike knowing he has a girlfriend. Or treating Louise like a sex toy is also corruption of Lena's morality. Then, from posting only artistic modeling pictures to being okay posting lewd porn for money and thrill, without any artistic pretense is also corruption regardless of the player's views on it because Lena at the start of the game wouldn't be okay doing that, she needed Ivy to lead by example.

Agree with most of what you said, will just add real fast that I don't think it is possible to get the Mark scene if you haven't told Holly to keep going to the gym, which removes nearly all of Ivy's interactions with her. Until the "no-gym" route gets an equivalent scene, I wouldn't say Lena is "corrupting" Holly, at most she accidentally makes her more influenceable and then lets Ivy do her thing, either because Lena agrees with Ivy's goals (if not her methods) or is too passive about the whole affair.

Lena being protective of Holly in regards to Ian was less about the corruption and more about the heartbreak. I think that if you play your Lena to not be interested in romance anymore, her behavior in regards to pushing Holly into a one-night stand with Mark isn't really contradictory nor a sign of Lena's own corruption. Lena starts the game at a crossroads and uncertain about how she feels about the entire idea of finding love due to the heartbreak she had with Axel, she can simultaneously think the one-night stand with Ian was a bad idea because it would bring Holly pain while also think that the one-night stand with Mark is not a terrible idea because being able to have casual relationships without romantic feelings would be a good thing for Holly (although I think that no matter the scenario, Lena is always a bit shocked about Holly giving Mark a bj in their first date, rathen than impressed or proud)

Also I think it is important for there to be a distinction between "corrupting" someone and just sharing your own opinion and being a part of another person's growth. Saying that any kind of influence is a form of corruption just because it resulted in change is a dangerous line of reasoning in my opinion, hence why I associate "corruption" more with coercion and manipulation than just the result of change.

 

[Turret]

Also I think it is important for there to be a distinction between "corrupting" someone and just sharing your own opinion and being a part of another person's growth. Saying that any kind of influence is a form of corruption just because it resulted in change is a dangerous line of reasoning in my opinion, hence why I associate "corruption" more with coercion and manipulation than just the result of change.

Very much this! In addition, as we can see often in the thread, there is quite a number of discutants which consider everything is fine and dandy if it concerns their chosen characters, all others or the differing opinion of other members is directly "corrupt". Which is far from helpful.

 

[Moryaka26]

What do you think will happen with Wade if he break up with Cindy?

 

[BloodyMares]

Agree with most of what you said, will just add real fast that I don't think it is possible to get the Mark scene if you haven't told Holly to keep going to the gym, which removes nearly all of Ivy's interactions with her. Until the "no-gym" route gets an equivalent scene, I wouldn't say Lena is "corrupting" Holly, at most she accidentally makes her more influenceable and then lets Ivy do her thing, either because Lena agrees with Ivy's goals (if not her methods) or is too passive about the whole affair.

You are right about Holly not being able to hook up with Mark without going to the gym. But it doesn't necessarily have to do with Ivy's mean and blunt ideas influencing Holly but Holly and Ivy being friends. Mark is Ivy's friend, so of course Holly needs to go to the gym to be introduced to him, otherwise Ivy doesn't really give a damn about Holly. Even if they hung out that time on the path where Holly didn't go to the gym and Holly started wallowing in self-pity, Ivy would just dismiss her and try to change the topic instead of giving her any ideas.

On top of that, encourage_holly variable is what determines Holly's starting change, representing Holly's growing confidence. If Lena doesn't encourage her to go to the gym, the value for that variable decreases instead of staying the same, thus telling us that Holly is being discouraged by Lena from putting an effort. And if she's not willing to put some effort, she wouldn't even consider Ivy's ideas if Ivy brought them up.

Now, regarding her interactions with Ivy and how they contribute to her corruption (hooking up with Mark) vs Lena's influence.

To hook up with Mark, Holly needs:

1) holly_guy = 2 which is triggered automatically if Lena encouraged Holly to hang out with him and she didn't have sex with Holly, in which case it's only = 1 or 0 (if Lena tried to discourage Holly from meeting him in Ch 7). Lena can try to interrupt them from talking but it only works if holly_change < 4. If it's > 3, Holly prefers Mark's company and wants to keep chatting with him.

2) holly_change = 5 to agree to it if Lena is passive and allows her to make her own decision ("Let Holly decide"). Otherwise she rejects the idea despite Ivy's arguments. However, Lena can push her towards this idea, thus convincing Holly to go for it regardless of holly_change value. So Holly values Lena's input before doing anything Ivy tells her to do.

3) If Lena decides to protect Holly, regardless of other conditions, it completely stops Holly's interest in Mark (holly_guy = 0), even if she hooked up with Ivy and generally listens to her ideas.

So, if we ignore Lena suddenly protecting Holly here or pushing her (which could be argued as joint effort with Ivy rather than Holly listening exclusively to Lena). That leaves us with holly_guy = 2 and holly_change > 3 or holly_change > 5. Let's compare how many holly_change points are contributed by Ivy vs Lena vs Ian. Any point rewarded by Lena agreeing with Ivy or being passive in a situation where Ivy suggests an idea will be attributed to Ivy for the sake of fairness. It somewhat diminishes Lena's agency but whatever.

Ch 1:
- "Yes, she is" +1 to Ian

Ch 6 (holly_gym):
- "Comfort Holly / Let Ivy talk to her" +1 to either Lena / Ivy
- "Agree with Ivy" +1 to Ivy

Ch 7 (holly_gym):
- "She's a writer" +1 (3 max) to Lena - when talking to Marcel
- "Encourage Holly" +1 (3 max) to Ivy - when Ivy shows Mark's photo to Holly

Ch 8 (holly_gym):
- "Give me something strong" +1 (2 max) to Lena - when drinking at Ivy's place
- "Stay at Ivy's place and have another drink" +1 (1 max) to Lena
- "Strip to underwear" +1 (3 max) to Ivy (her idea)

Ch 10:
- "Nudge Holly" +1 (5 max) to Lena
- "Leave them to it" +1 (5 max) - This is tricky because it's Lena's decision to let them talk but Holly in this instance ends up being corrupted from talking to Mark with Ivy doing her own thing elsewhere. Unless you count Mark as an extension of Ivy, but it would completely rob Lena and Holly from agency because Ivy can't influence Holly enjoying Mark's company. Since Ivy is not directly influencing Holly here let's just not count it and award it to Holly herself.

Results:
1) Pitiful 1 point from Ian at the very start of the game. He gets to contribute more in his own path but since it's at odds with Holly hooking up with Mark I ignored those. Also he gets to contribute once more in Ch 10 but only if Holly doesn't go to gym so it's irrelevant here either.
3) Ivy: 3 (1 bonus that can't go beyond 3)
2) Lena: 3 (1 bonus that can't go beyond 3 and another that applies only if the score was 0).

So, we can see that Lena's and Ivy's influence rather match and Holly can only be corrupted by joint effort but it's besides the point. We only need Holly to hook up with Mark without choosing anything that would increase holly_change by Ivy's influence.
1) +1 "Yes, she is" by Ian
2) +1 "Comfort Holly" by Lena
3) +1 "She's a writer" by Lena
4) +1 "Nudge Holly" by Lena
5) +1 "Leave them to it" - passed the required threshold

And thus, Ian and Lena can contribute to Holly hooking up with Mark without Ivy having anything to do with it aside from orchestrating their interaction on her birthday. While sure, none of these options can really be attributed to corruption as on their own they're quite innocent and Holly simply becomes more confident in herself. But it's Lena helping Holly with her confidence in order to loosen up. It's not fair to say that she simply lets Ivy to do her thing because she can still reject some of Ivy's ideas and only go along with those that she thinks benefit Holly. Ivy simply can't corrupt Holly if Lena is being passive. Holly needs Lena's encouragement in order to be brave enough to go the extra mile.

Lena being protective of Holly in regards to Ian was less about the corruption and more about the heartbreak. I think that if you play your Lena to not be interested in romance anymore, her behavior in regards to pushing Holly into a one-night stand with Mark isn't really contradictory nor a sign of Lena's own corruption. Lena starts the game at a crossroads and uncertain about how she feels about the entire idea of finding love due to the heartbreak she had with Axel, she can simultaneously think the one-night stand with Ian was a bad idea because it would bring Holly pain while also think that the one-night stand with Mark is not a terrible idea because being able to have casual relationships without romantic feelings would be a good thing for Holly (although I think that no matter the scenario, Lena is always a bit shocked about Holly giving Mark a bj in their first date, rathen than impressed or proud)

Only, how can Lena be sure that Holly doesn't suffer heartbreak from Mark if she learned that he was simply playing with her because Ivy told him to? There's no confirmation that Holly simply uses Mark to get sexual experience. Sure, that's what Ivy tells her to do, but Holly can actually grow to enjoy talking with Mark and for all Lena knows, she could develop an equally strong crush just like she did with Ian. We don't know with what mindset Holly pursues her relationship with Mark. Sure, she partially wants to perform Ivy's tasks and gain more sexual experience, but in the path where she dates Ian, she can be doing the exact same thing with him, opening up to be more flirtatious and kinky, sending nudes, using dirty talk, etc. On top of it, Holly can relatively quickly fall in love with Lena after being rejected by Ian if they end up having sex. So with Mark she can feel similar emotions, using him to forget about Ian but simultaneously developing an equally strong crush.

The only branch where Lena is somewhat aware that Holly's fling with Mark is casual is if she had Holly had sex with either Lena or Ivy. In this branch she knows that by hooking up with Mark Holly will simply get more experience and that after tasting him she won't suddenly stop sleeping with Ivy or Lena. But if Holly has been dealing with her heartbreak on her own, Lena can't really be sure that Holly won't catch feelings for Mark or doesn't already have them. But she knows that Holly is a sweet and romantic girl, so it's weird that she wasn't as protective of her dating Mark, and regardless of how Ivy might present it and if Mark can deny that they have anything serious, Holly can see it as a getting-to-know phase, expecting something more in the future. And while we know that she probably won't be heartbroken if Mark treats her as a fuck buddy because unlike Louise she doesn't assume anything of the relationship before talking about it, but if Lena was so protective of Holly towards Ian, she most likely thinks that Holly can't handle casual relationships. With Ian, her arguments were mostly "But Holly is different", and not "She had a crush on you!". So what exactly happened that made Lena believe that Holly is not that different anymore and can now be okay with casual sex?

Also I think it is important for there to be a distinction between "corrupting" someone and just sharing your own opinion and being a part of another person's growth. Saying that any kind of influence is a form of corruption just because it resulted in change is a dangerous line of reasoning in my opinion, hence why I associate "corruption" more with coercion and manipulation than just the result of change.

I agree that not all influence is corruption especially if it's well-intentioned and mostly wholesome, but as I said earlier, corruption can be unintentional and accidental because it's not really about actions but the outcome, and can happen even without any active influence of the protagonist (or even other NPCs). Would you disagree that in GGGB Eva had a corruption arc? Because it was only triggered by Ash not warning her about Jack (a passive choice), and Jack didn't really coerce or manipulate Eva in any way, he simply hit on her and let her do what she wanted without any judgment. And with that, she dove head-first into cheating, drugs, hanging out with thugs, etc, completely on her own (well, with the help of Jack and later thugs that benefited from her thrill-seeking).

 

[Gicoo]

What do you think will happen with Wade if he break up with Cindy?

If Ian doesn't fuck her, he is depressed, but Ian and Perry can pull him out of it and he does e-sport and fucks gamer girls.
If Ian steals her, he is depressed and Perry alone can't pull him out of it.

He doesn't get an elaborated view and ending, because he isn't a dateable side-character like Stan. Wade is more of an asset of Cindy's subplot rather than his own deal.

 

[dontcarewhateverno]

What do you think will happen with Wade if he break up with Cindy?

Due to chapter 10 reaction, he's a potential Ivy prospect if Ian has still done enough to help pull Wade out of his rut while failing to save their relationship. Depending on if Ian is going for Ivy or not.

Wouldn't be too surprised if he's a later-game Lena option if he's improved himself, too.

 

[manscout]

You are right about Holly not being able to hook up with Mark without going to the gym. But it doesn't necessarily have to do with Ivy's mean and blunt ideas influencing Holly but Holly and Ivy being friends. Mark is Ivy's friend, so of course Holly needs to go to the gym to be introduced to him, otherwise Ivy doesn't really give a damn about Holly. Even if they hung out that time on the path where Holly didn't go to the gym and Holly started wallowing in self-pity, Ivy would just dismiss her and try to change the topic instead of giving her any ideas.

On top of that, encourage_holly variable is what determines Holly's starting change, representing Holly's growing confidence. If Lena doesn't encourage her to go to the gym, the value for that variable decreases instead of staying the same, thus telling us that Holly is being discouraged by Lena from putting an effort. And if she's not willing to put some effort, she wouldn't even consider Ivy's ideas if Ivy brought them up.

Now, regarding her interactions with Ivy and how they contribute to her corruption (hooking up with Mark) vs Lena's influence.

To hook up with Mark, Holly needs:

1) holly_guy = 2 which is triggered automatically if Lena encouraged Holly to hang out with him and she didn't have sex with Holly, in which case it's only = 1 or 0 (if Lena tried to discourage Holly from meeting him in Ch 7). Lena can try to interrupt them from talking but it only works if holly_change < 4. If it's > 3, Holly prefers Mark's company and wants to keep chatting with him.

2) holly_change = 5 to agree to it if Lena is passive and allows her to make her own decision ("Let Holly decide"). Otherwise she rejects the idea despite Ivy's arguments. However, Lena can push her towards this idea, thus convincing Holly to go for it regardless of holly_change value. So Holly values Lena's input before doing anything Ivy tells her to do.

3) If Lena decides to protect Holly, regardless of other conditions, it completely stops Holly's interest in Mark (holly_guy = 0), even if she hooked up with Ivy and generally listens to her ideas.

So, if we ignore Lena suddenly protecting Holly here or pushing her (which could be argued as joint effort with Ivy rather than Holly listening exclusively to Lena). That leaves us with holly_guy = 2 and holly_change > 3 or holly_change > 5. Let's compare how many holly_change points are contributed by Ivy vs Lena vs Ian. Any point rewarded by Lena agreeing with Ivy or being passive in a situation where Ivy suggests an idea will be attributed to Ivy for the sake of fairness. It somewhat diminishes Lena's agency but whatever.

Ch 1:
- "Yes, she is" +1 to Ian

Ch 6 (holly_gym):
- "Comfort Holly / Let Ivy talk to her" +1 to either Lena / Ivy
- "Agree with Ivy" +1 to Ivy

Ch 7 (holly_gym):
- "She's a writer" +1 (3 max) to Lena - when talking to Marcel
- "Encourage Holly" +1 (3 max) to Ivy - when Ivy shows Mark's photo to Holly

Ch 8 (holly_gym):
- "Give me something strong" +1 (2 max) to Lena - when drinking at Ivy's place
- "Stay at Ivy's place and have another drink" +1 (1 max) to Lena
- "Strip to underwear" +1 (3 max) to Ivy (her idea)

Ch 10:
- "Nudge Holly" +1 (5 max) to Lena
- "Leave them to it" +1 (5 max) - This is tricky because it's Lena's decision to let them talk but Holly in this instance ends up being corrupted from talking to Mark with Ivy doing her own thing elsewhere. Unless you count Mark as an extension of Ivy, but it would completely rob Lena and Holly from agency because Ivy can't influence Holly enjoying Mark's company. Since Ivy is not directly influencing Holly here let's just not count it and award it to Holly herself.

Results:
1) Pitiful 1 point from Ian at the very start of the game. He gets to contribute more in his own path but since it's at odds with Holly hooking up with Mark I ignored those. Also he gets to contribute once more in Ch 10 but only if Holly doesn't go to gym so it's irrelevant here either.
3) Ivy: 3 (1 bonus that can't go beyond 3)
2) Lena: 3 (1 bonus that can't go beyond 3 and another that applies only if the score was 0).

So, we can see that Lena's and Ivy's influence rather match and Holly can only be corrupted by joint effort but it's besides the point. We only need Holly to hook up with Mark without choosing anything that would increase holly_change by Ivy's influence.
1) +1 "Yes, she is" by Ian
2) +1 "Comfort Holly" by Lena
3) +1 "She's a writer" by Lena
4) +1 "Nudge Holly" by Lena
5) +1 "Leave them to it" - passed the required threshold

And thus, Ian and Lena can contribute to Holly hooking up with Mark without Ivy having anything to do with it aside from orchestrating their interaction on her birthday. While sure, none of these options can really be attributed to corruption as on their own they're quite innocent and Holly simply becomes more confident in herself. But it's Lena helping Holly with her confidence in order to loosen up. It's not fair to say that she simply lets Ivy to do her thing because she can still reject some of Ivy's ideas and only go along with those that she thinks benefit Holly. Ivy simply can't corrupt Holly if Lena is being passive. Holly needs Lena's encouragement in order to be brave enough to go the extra mile.



Only, how can Lena be sure that Holly doesn't suffer heartbreak from Mark if she learned that he was simply playing with her because Ivy told him to? There's no confirmation that Holly simply uses Mark to get sexual experience. Sure, that's what Ivy tells her to do, but Holly can actually grow to enjoy talking with Mark and for all Lena knows, she could develop an equally strong crush just like she did with Ian. We don't know with what mindset Holly pursues her relationship with Mark. Sure, she partially wants to perform Ivy's tasks and gain more sexual experience, but in the path where she dates Ian, she can be doing the exact same thing with him, opening up to be more flirtatious and kinky, sending nudes, using dirty talk, etc. On top of it, Holly can relatively quickly fall in love with Lena after being rejected by Ian if they end up having sex. So with Mark she can feel similar emotions, using him to forget about Ian but simultaneously developing an equally strong crush.

The only branch where Lena is somewhat aware that Holly's fling with Mark is casual is if she had Holly had sex with either Lena or Ivy. In this branch she knows that by hooking up with Mark Holly will simply get more experience and that after tasting him she won't suddenly stop sleeping with Ivy or Lena. But if Holly has been dealing with her heartbreak on her own, Lena can't really be sure that Holly won't catch feelings for Mark or doesn't already have them. But she knows that Holly is a sweet and romantic girl, so it's weird that she wasn't as protective of her dating Mark, and regardless of how Ivy might present it and if Mark can deny that they have anything serious, Holly can see it as a getting-to-know phase, expecting something more in the future. And while we know that she probably won't be heartbroken if Mark treats her as a fuck buddy because unlike Louise she doesn't assume anything of the relationship before talking about it, but if Lena was so protective of Holly towards Ian, she most likely thinks that Holly can't handle casual relationships. With Ian, her arguments were mostly "But Holly is different", and not "She had a crush on you!". So what exactly happened that made Lena believe that Holly is not that different anymore and can now be okay with casual sex?



I agree that not all influence is corruption especially if it's well-intentioned and mostly wholesome, but as I said earlier, corruption can be unintentional and accidental because it's not really about actions but the outcome, and can happen even without any active influence of the protagonist (or even other NPCs). Would you disagree that in GGGB Eva had a corruption arc? Because it was only triggered by Ash not warning her about Jack (a passive choice), and Jack didn't really coerce or manipulate Eva in any way, he simply hit on her and let her do what she wanted without any judgment. And with that, she dove head-first into cheating, drugs, hanging out with thugs, etc, completely on her own (well, with the help of Jack and later thugs that benefited from her thrill-seeking).

I think my only main point of disagreement with your logic is that you are associating all influence with just what's decided through the mechanical choices in a videogame, rather than what can be inferred from the relationship between the characters even without player input or direct observation by the protagonist. Saying that we can't pin more influence to characters like Ivy or Jack because the game doesn't mechanically keep track of what they do beyond that which the player can control through their choices doesn't really make sense because they are NPCs, their behavior is set on stone and the dev doesn't need to have variables to keep track of that.

What I mean is, as long as Holly's corruption to a promiscuous level that directly contradicts her established values is only possible in the route where she befriends Ivy, then you can't say Ivy had no influence just because it may be technically possible to gain all the required mechanical points without relying on her.

Regarding GGGB, my point would be that we barely see the interactions between Eva and Jack, we don't know exactly how Jack got into her head when he was "simply hitting on her". Yes Jack will say to you that he didn't do anything and only let Eva do what she wanted all along, but that's exactly the type of rationale a playboy that is extremely protective of his ego would have as his prerogative to avoid all responsability. Jack is extremely manipulative, he just isn't obsessive so he is okay with letting go if random girls give him the definitive "no", which you can fault Eva for failing to do if you don't warn her, but Eva is meant to be a malleable character in GGGB so her being extremely influenceable and, quite frankly, "corruption-bait" is just part of her design. Also add Ethan to the list of corrupting characters that claim innocence but really shouldn't be trusted, as much as he talks about "just helping Ash's mom do all the things she always secretly wanted" and "being in love with her", unless Ash is there to spice up their relationship then he always dumps her in the end like she was a broken toy, I think that says plenty about how much he actually cared for her well-being and self-improvement.

 

[Oliver Wendell Homely]

Due to chapter 10 reaction, he's a potential Ivy prospect if Ian has still done enough to help pull Wade out of his rut while failing to save their relationship. Depending on if Ian is going for Ivy or not.

Wouldn't be too surprised if he's a later-game Lena option if he's improved himself, too.

I guess you're being serious, but as he is now, I can't see Wade being a viable option for anyone in this game, certainly not Ivy. Maybe if Wade wins one of his gaming competitions and becomes rich...? Short of that, he's akin to Stan with a more outgoing personality.

 

[Geralt From Rivia]

Due to chapter 10 reaction, he's a potential Ivy prospect if Ian has still done enough to help pull Wade out of his rut while failing to save their relationship. Depending on if Ian is going for Ivy or not.

Wouldn't be too surprised if he's a later-game Lena option if he's improved himself, too.

What we saw in Ep 10 is Ivy's usual behavior - flirting and teasing. But something serious Ivy/Wade? He's just out of her league and I have no idea what and how can help this guy. Unfortunately, he just goes with the flow in his comfort zone and is not going to change anything.

 

[dolfe67]

Wade would have to make a 180 to be with Ivy, he didn't like Cindy doing charm photos, so Ivy... But it's possible if his breakup with Cindy made him realize things.

 

[Doppelgang]

Also, the characters in ORS have more agency than in most other similar games, and at least more than the classical "corrupted" character. In its most basic sense, I'd say the trope consists of a development that goes something like this:

A (young) woman, prim and proper, is a virgin, considers sex to be disgusting (there's some slack to where the starting point is) -> accidentally sees a dick or someone having sex -> still finds it disgusting -> the same thing happens, is somewhat intrigued -> is coerced to touch said dick -> gives a handjob -> gives a blowjob -> vaginal sex -> anal sex -> is gangbanged by whoever is willing to fuck her, while screaming things like "fuck me, I need more cocks inside of me, I'm just a cheap whore". Yeah.

The bad girl route in GGGB relied on that structure as well, even if Ashley skipped some of the earlier steps of The Mindless Fuckdoll Ladder™. My impression is that character "corruption" in this sense implies that the character's primal, hidden desires together with the influence of other character(s) always ends up with a knockout win in the duel against against the character's rational self. (And the corrupted character is most likely unaware of that side of themselves at the start of story.) With Lena, and Holly for that matter, that external influence could never be as dominating because they're more fleshed out as characters already, and the classical corrupting influence is already an integrated part of them. Lena too can do things her rational self doesn't want her to do, but if she does, she's still following urges that she's also followed in the past.

I don't doubt that Lena too will have the chance to end up somewhere similar in ten chapters time, it just won't be as straightforward a path. More friction. More agency. Which is good in my opinion, but probably not if you're looking for a straightforward corruption story. It's similar to the everlasting NTR discussion: It's not like Lena unconditionally loves cheating on Ian, and Ian loves watching or fantasising about Lena sleeping with other guys—it's much more messy than that. If everybody agreed during these discussions, it would probably mean that all the porn tropes were played out without any friction or anything more added. Which, in my view, would've been boring.

 

[StultusAnglicus]

Due to chapter 10 reaction, he's a potential Ivy prospect

Dude, Wade has all the charisma and charm of a potato, and no money - Ivy wouldn't be interested.

As for Lena getting together with him? That'd be entirely up to player agency - but even then likely only if you've made Lena slutty and she has a one night stand or something with him.

 

[BloodyMares]

I think my only main point of disagreement with your logic is that you are associating all influence with just what's decided through the mechanical choices in a videogame, rather than what can be inferred from the relationship between the characters even without player input or direct observation by the protagonist. Saying that we can't pin more influence to characters like Ivy or Jack because the game doesn't mechanically keep track of what they do beyond that which the player can control through their choices doesn't really make sense because they are NPCs, their behavior is set on stone and the dev doesn't need to have variables to keep track of that.

What I mean is, as long as Holly's corruption to a promiscuous level that directly contradicts her established values is only possible in the route where she befriends Ivy, then you can't say Ivy had no influence just because it may be technically possible to gain all the required mechanical points without relying on her.

You got me on that, call it professional deformation. However, your main argument was that corruption was happening only through manipulation or coercion, so I was disproving that.

If Ivy was the only one contributing to Holly's corruption thanks to her manipulation, how would you explain that Ivy's same mean and coercive suggestions even with encouragement from Lena are rendered completely useless if Holly is dating Ian? Obviously it's not enough, Holly needs to be in the right mindset to be okay with those suggestions, and that mindset is affected by primarily Ian and Lena (even if they were NPCs).

It wasn't my intention to diminish Ivy's clearly significant role in Holly's corruption, only to showcase that Lena's role as a gentle guiding force is much more important (if Ian rejected her obviously) to Holly's corruption and she doesn't need to resort to manipulation or coercion, only encouragement but ultimately allowing Holly to make her own decisions. Ivy provides opportunities, sure, but whether Holly takes those opportunities and listens to Ivy's advice is mainly decided by Lena's direct or indirect influence because Holly always looks up to Lena as an example and she values her words over Ivy's. I hope that I managed to make myself clear at least on that.

To summarize my points:
1) Is Ivy the main instigator for Holly's corruption? Yes, no argument here.
2) Can Ivy corrupt Holly on her own however? No, if Lena doesn't encourage Holly or chooses to mind her business it doesn't work, Holly also requires Lena's reassurance
3) Is Ivy's opinion more important to Holly than Lena's? No, Holly does what Lena tells her to do for the most part, easily stopping any corruption that was in the process.

Regarding GGGB, my point would be that we barely see the interactions between Eva and Jack, we don't know exactly how Jack got into her head when he was "simply hitting on her". Yes Jack will say to you that he didn't do anything and only let Eva do what she wanted all along, but that's exactly the type of rationale a playboy that is extremely protective of his ego would have as his prerogative to avoid all responsability.

I'm just projecting his interaction with Ash to Eva because I doubt he'd treat them all that differently. With Ash he didn't really resort to any coercion or manipulation. He was obnoxiously flirtatious, asking for selfies, and sending unsolicited dick pics, sure, but it's a creepy asshole behavior, not really manipulation. He probably made Eva drink a lot just like he wanted to do with Ash, and then he kissed her. An asshole move, but after that interaction Eva was free to avoid him like a plague if she was really a "good naive girl that fell into his trap". No, the next morning she defends her behavior and basically says YOLO, having no regrets or second thoughts, and even gets mad at Ash if she doesn't enable that behavior. Jack probably said to Eva that it wasn't a big deal to cheat on her boyfriend, but it's straight-forward seduction move which wouldn't work on a girl who wasn't already thinking about cheating so I don't think he really corrupted Eva. If it was all him, at worst she could believe that she was having an affair with Jack, which would stroke her ego, but then she starts flirting with creepy thugs and even fucking them for no other reason than thrill. Who told her that it's okay to be promiscuous? Nobody did, she simply got hooked to the freedom that the cheating lifestyle offered her and she had no intention of stopping, becoming more eager and curious to try the shady stuff. If Jack started a spark, Eva herself kept blowing at the fire and going against her old moral principles.

 

[BloodyMares]

What we saw in Ep 10 is Ivy's usual behavior - flirting and teasing. But something serious Ivy/Wade? He's just out of her league and I have no idea what and how can help this guy. Unfortunately, he just goes with the flow in his comfort zone and is not going to change anything.

Wade is in Ivy's league simply for dating Cindy who is above Ivy's league (proven by Wildcats). And we all know Ivy is a sore loser, so she might use Wade to somehow fuck with Cindy's life.

 

[dontcarewhateverno]

I guess you're being serious, but as he is now, I can't see Wade being a viable option for anyone in this game, certainly not Ivy. Maybe if Wade wins one of his gaming competitions and becomes rich...? Short of that, he's akin to Stan with a more outgoing personality.

What we saw in Ep 10 is Ivy's usual behavior - flirting and teasing. But something serious Ivy/Wade? He's just out of her league and I have no idea what and how can help this guy. Unfortunately, he just goes with the flow in his comfort zone and is not going to change anything.

It's a game but it's a story. People change in stories. They get into and out of ruts, ect. Surprising things happen in stories. That's all part of what makes a story interesting. Challenges and possibilities. This isn't something unbelievable a la "guess you're being serious". These are possibilities, not definites. But you've got to read the foreshadowing a bit and have at least a little imagination. Ever heard of a "cave moment" in story structure?

1. Clearly there's an Arc path for Wade improving himself rather than wasting away at home, even if it is pro-Esports. Was also once in shape and could be so again on a positive path. Would make him the second most attractive male character behind Axel, with the facial features Eva chose for him. He was after all attractive and "winner" enough previously to rope in Cindy and I'd assume Eva gave him those features for a reason.

2. Ivy was clearly into him spotting him at the bar in Chapter 10, at least on the paths I played, and as BloodyMares suggested, sex is also not out of the realm of her cat-and-mouse games.

3. Lena prospect more of a stretch but not out of the realm of possibilities, especially on a path where Ian is putting a dicking into Cindy while going out with Lena. Definite potential for a "Just Deserts" ending for the two of them, with the cheated-on showing up the cheaters.

4. Have you played GGGB? The majority of the characters had the opportunity to change their direction drastically from the beginning to the end of the story and most of them got fucked in both literally good and proverbially bad ways depending on your choices. Kind of par for the course. Basically, I don't see how this is odd.

 

[Manaemesjeff]

It's obvious, but when?

In the future

 

[Blurpee69]

In the future