VN Ren'Py Our Red String [Ch. 13.1 BETA] [Eva Kiss]

[Cabot]

This argument got me thinking about examples of polyamory relationships, and throuples or love triangles in general, both historical and from fiction. And then I remembered “Jules et Jim”, the famous old Truffaut’s movie that ended tragically (with her throwing her car at the Seine with Jim inside).

What a cruel plot twist would be for Eva finally letting us have the trinity… Only to end in disaster, heh (well, maybe not that awful). Mind you, narratively speaking it could make sense, it’s a trope tried and true, and I wouldn’t put it past her...

 

[BlandChili]

Lena was the one who was on the moral high horse when discussing the Holly issue with Ian. If she's able to sleep with Holly while in a relationship with Ian, then she would be a massive hypocrite, which was the primary issue that started it all. She gave Ian shit for only kissing with Holly (that he didn't initiate) because she cares about Holly's emotional state (or she said she did), but then sleeping with Holly after that would compromise her own morality and logic, since it would not only make her problem with Ian a bit silly but also make Holly feel all sorts of confused and awkward around Ian who only rejected her because of his feelings for Lena. It would have to end up in a threesome to make sense, and that would be too easy. Eva's intent is to make you work for it, not make poor, selfish, and hypocritical choices and win in the end.

But isn't the issue that this logic applies to people who didn't kiss Holly as Ian too?

I got the impression from the discussion that the determining factor for Lena's options with Holly seem to be a variable, that sets Ian and Lena's dating status for each other, and this somehow assumes a specific mindset on Lena's part, that Lena is blocked from developing the Holly relationship only on this basis, even if Ian never kisses Holly, or never goes to the bookfair at all.
This combination of choices does not present the situation where Lena chastises Ian for his actions in regards to Holly in the first place, right? Thus only really making her a hypocrite when factoring in the player's metaknowledge of alternative game states.

This would probably not be a path to the throuple anyway, given that Ian would have to show interest in Holly for that to make sense too, but it seems odd that Lena would be blocked from a path where she is the one trying to get with both, because of an argument that never takes place.

 

[Tarmogo]

Lena was the one who was on the moral high horse when discussing the Holly issue with Ian. If she's able to sleep with Holly while in a relationship with Ian, then she would be a massive hypocrite, which was the primary issue that started it all. She gave Ian shit for only kissing with Holly (that he didn't initiate) because she cares about Holly's emotional state (or she said she did), but then sleeping with Holly after that would compromise her own morality and logic, since it would not only make her problem with Ian a bit silly but also make Holly feel all sorts of confused and awkward around Ian who only rejected her because of his feelings for Lena. It would have to end up in a threesome to make sense, and that would be too easy. Eva's intent is to make you work for it, not make poor, selfish, and hypocritical choices and win in the end.

First off I just want to commend you for your hard work on the walkthrough. Joined your Patreon the other day to throw you a few bucks for the effort.

Now in regards to this conversation, Lena is only a hypocrite if IanxHolly actually occurs. In a playthrough where Ian never goes with Holly, that confrontation scene between Ian and Lena never happens, so Lena initiating a scene with Holly would not be hypocritical in any way. Lena would then just be making the same "mistake" that Ian has the option to make, which could then lead to a potential confrontation in the reverse of the other one. Now continuing under the assumption that IanxHolly never occurred, the fact that LenaxHolly is blocked by 'ian_lena_dating=true' (regardless of the situation with IanxHolly) becomes troublesome since the game still presents the player with the option to pursue Holly as Lena through the lena_go_holly variable, as well as presenting options for Lena to think of Holly while masturbating which implies sexual feelings. Thus there is a disconnect with preventing the LenaxHolly scene, since under the circumstances I mentioned (Lena has sexual feelings toward Holly and she can't be a hypocrite towards Ian) there is no reason portrayed by the game why it shouldn't/can't occur. If the idea that Lena does not want to hurt Holly/complicate things with her is the reason (which I agree it is), then there should be some in game reference to that to indicate that is the reason.

 

[Tarmogo]

But isn't the issue that this logic applies to people who didn't kiss Holly as Ian too?

Preciously. The logic of Lena being a hypocrite does not apply if Holly and Ian never happened.

Thus only really making her a hypocrite when factoring in the player's metaknowledge of alternative game states.

Exactly. The disparate game states do not exist and influence each other simultaneously in one playthrough, so outside metaknowledge should not be applied between them imo.

 

[MyStupidPornAccount]

Like people have said it also makes no sense when you consider she can get with mike or jeremy who are both in relationships and she doesn't care at all seemingly

 

[pokiehl]

Although the final version hasnt been released yet, I have some thoughts so far. I always play lesbian paths, since they are my favourites, but I'd like to point out that:

1)LenaxHolly: The best one until now, the build up, the story, the sex scene was surprisingly cute and good. Great stuff. Feels very convincing.
2)LenaxLouise: Althought the sex scenes are great and the domination with the leash is really cool, it always seems that Louise is an annoying person to Lena. She didnt even allowed the poor girl to sleep on her bed lol.
3)LenaxHollyxIvy: The threesome was great, but at least for me, felt kinda rushed. I expected it to happen later on Chapter 10 or ahead.

Still expecting LenaxIvy, but I would really love LenaxCindy. Cindy is portrayed as a straight character, but I can imagine her breaking up with Wade, meets Lena in a party where she's drunk etc and one thing leads to another.

Emma seems like going to be the next pair to Lena, with all the hints

IanxLena: Vanilla, but I like them. Specially when I see them as representations of Eva's personality, they complement themselves.


Alisson: Selfish and egocentric, but I doing one path for her.
Jeremy: Hate him, backstabber of friends!!
Seymour: Dont like him either
Perry: Bit of annoying, but he's a cool friend.

I need to find a path where my Lena gets some money, 'cause in all of them she's always broke lol, couldt even purchase the lingerie

 

[BlandChili]

I need to find a path where my Lena gets some money, 'cause in all of them she's always broke lol, couldt even purchase the lingerie

If you work for Seymour you can get the lingerie for free. You can do stalkfap too without committing to too explicit posts.

 

[Deleted member 3064965]

This argument got me thinking about examples of polyamory relationships, and throuples or love triangles in general, both historical and from fiction. And then I remembered “Jules et Jim”, the famous old Truffaut’s movie that ended tragically (with her throwing her car at the Sena with Jim inside).

What a cruel plot twist would be for Eva finally letting us have the trinity… Only to end in disaster, heh (well, maybe not that awful). Mind you, narratively speaking it could make sense, it’s a trope tried and true, and I wouldn’t put it past her...

It wasn't exactly a lack of dark endings in GGGB, so it certainly could be possible. Although I don't think there's anything that suggests the throuple is in bigger danger of having a bad ending than other characters or constellations. My feeling is that Wade and Louise are the two most likely characters to have bad endings.

But isn't the issue that this logic applies to people who didn't kiss Holly as Ian too?

Now in regards to this conversation, Lena is only a hypocrite if IanxHolly actually occurs.

True. I assume the logic to it still is that Holly is special to Lena, as Eva has mentioned a few times. And at this point Lena knows that Holly's got a crush on Ian, and that Ian has kept away from Holly. So I think it makes sense that Lena thinks it's a bad and somewhat messy idea to kiss Holly, even though it doesn't make her a hypocrite. But that logic isn't implemented in the scene, so I agree that it ideally needs some adjustments.

Like people have said it also makes no sense when you consider she can get with mike or jeremy who are both in relationships and she doesn't care at all seemingly

I think Mike is different. He's just a random guy from the club, and Lena's got no idea who his girlfriend is. Jeremy is a bit more complicated. I agree that it doesn't make completely sense that she can have sex with Jeremy and not with Holly. But even though it's just as shitty towards Louise and Ian to sleep with Jeremy as it is towards Ian to sleep with Holly, one thing that sets the two situations apart is that with Jeremy it's just about sex, while she genuinely cares about Holly.

 

[BlandChili]

True. I assume the logic to it still is that Holly is special to Lena, as Eva has mentioned a few times. And at this point Lena knows that Holly's got a crush on Ian, and that Ian has kept away from Holly. So I think it makes sense that Lena thinks it's a bad and somewhat messy idea to kiss Holly, even though it doesn't make her a hypocrite. But that logic isn't implemented in the scene, so I agree that it ideally needs some adjustments.

The point of their sex scene in this instance is that they give in to their base desires. I feel it'd a bit odd that Lena wouldn't be given the option to act on that desire in this version too, given that it's a "fuck it all" spontaneous emotional reaction, I think only the lena_go_holly should play into this scenario.

 

[Deleted member 3064965]

The point of their sex scene in this instance is that they give in to their base desires. I feel it'd a bit odd that Lena wouldn't be given the option to act on that desire in this version too, given that it's a "fuck it all" spontaneous emotional reaction, I think only the lena_go_holly should play into this scenario.

Just to be clear, I too would've preferred if they were given the option. But if they do and Ian has kissed Holly, it makes Lena a hypocrite. That's not necessarily a problem, but it could get in the way of the writing of the coming updates. The same goes if Ian hasn't kissed Holly, and Lena and Holly then have sex; or if Ian hasn't kissed Holly, and Holly hypothetically says no to Lena. As a pragmatic solution I can see why Eva's decided to remove the option if Ian and Lena are dating. It's not an ideal alternative, but it could work okay if some well thought out inner monologue is added.

I also agree that the main point is that they give in to their base desires. But it's not two random persons giving in to their base desires, it's two persons that already have a tight bond. I think that makes it partially belieavable that they hesitate one last time and think "Is this going to cause problems?". That would ideally be a player choice, but in that case you'll have those assumed challenges with the writing again.

Anyway, as Lena/Holly is one of my favourite couples, and I'm only halfway convinced by my own arguments, this is definitely not the hill I'm planning to die on. But as a conclusion: I don't think the solution is ideal. But if the alternative is delay-causing problems with the writing of the coming episodes (that's also speculation, I admit), I'll gladly (edit: somewhat reluctantly) accept it as a suboptimal solution that's necessary to progress the story.

 

[Tarmogo]

Just to be clear, I too would've preferred if they were given the option. But if they do and Ian has kissed Holly, it makes Lena a hypocrite. That's not necessarily a problem, but it could get in the way of the writing of the coming updates. The same goes if Ian hasn't kissed Holly, and Lena and Holly then have sex; or if Ian hasn't kissed Holly, and Holly hypothetically says no to Lena. As a pragmatic solution I can see why Eva's decided to remove the option if Ian and Lena are dating. It's not an ideal alternative, but it could work okay if some well thought out inner monologue is added.

I also agree that the main point is that they give in to their base desires. But it's not two random persons giving in to their base desires, it's two persons that already have a tight bond. I think that makes it partially belieavable that they hesitate one last time and think "Is this going to cause problems?". That would ideally be a player choice, but in that case you'll have those assumed challenges with the writing again.

Anyway, as Lena/Holly is one of my favourite couples, and I'm only halfway convinced by my own arguments, this is definitely not the hill I'm planning to die on. But as a conclusion: I don't think the solution is ideal. But if the alternative is delay-causing problems with the writing of the coming episodes (that's also speculation, I admit), I'll gladly (edit: somewhat reluctantly) accept it as a suboptimal solution that's necessary to progress the story.

Excellent thoughts all around.

 

[BloodyMares]

I also think this is an issue of greyed-out dialogues being present and lots of meta-gaming knowledge. Before that, all the missable options were hidden, so you didn't know what you were missing out on. There were many instances where the options are inaccessible to you because you didn't do X, Y or Z, even if it didn't always make the most of sense, but Eva is the director of the story and she chooses what to allow in her games, and what to prevent. If the option to kiss Holly didn't show up as a greyed-out choice, teasing the players so much, would there be such outrage over a missing opportunity? Because otherwise, it's just a hangout between good friends, and there was 0 guarantee that anything would happen with Holly this update (especially with Ivy).

 

[BlandChili]

I also think this is an issue of greyed-out dialogues being present and lots of meta-gaming knowledge. Before that, all the missable options were hidden, so you didn't know what you were missing out on. There were many instances where the options are inaccessible to you because you didn't do X, Y or Z, even if it didn't always make the most of sense, but Eva is the director of the story and she chooses what to allow in her games, and what to prevent. If the option to kiss Holly didn't show up as a greyed-out choice, teasing the players so much, would there be such outrage over a missing opportunity? Because otherwise, it's just a hangout between good friends, and there was 0 guarantee that anything would happen with Holly this update (especially with Ivy).

Then, would a "almost kiss" scene serve like the one Lena can have with Ian in the record store?

For the most part I think that instances like you describe, where there is an option you can't take, are usually self-explanatory within the context of the actions you have taken up to that point.
But for the Lena/Holly scene in the context we have talked about, Lena has either kissed Holly once previously and masturbated to her once, or masturbated to her twice, and she's in a relationship with Ian. If Lena feels that this is a dishonest position to occupy before getting involved with Holly then this is something the story needs to establish.
Not allowing the kiss option, or just any alternative option, at the point of the story where other lena_go_holly players can get to kiss her seems to run counter to the established games design, that suddenly despite clearly desiring Holly you are not allowed the choice without proper explanation.

In the Lena/Ian almost-kiss scene there can be a moment of hesitation before the player commits to the kiss (where Ian can also go for it).
The Holly scene could have had a similar encounter, a tense and romantic moment where it feels like Lena and Holly are about to kiss but Lena hesitates because she has the ian_lena_dating variable.
Hell, if the story was still open to it, it could just cost a willpower points like other boundary-crossing choices do.

 

[slightchance]

I also think this is an issue of greyed-out dialogues being present and lots of meta-gaming knowledge.

Greyed-out dialogues should be turned invisible by default. Showing you which content you will miss out on decreases the number of unexpected scenes and routes you will find on a second or third playthrough.

 

[Tarmogo]

For the most part I think that instances like you describe, where there is an option you can't take, are usually self-explanatory within the context of the actions you have taken up to that point.
But for the Lena/Holly scene in the context we have talked about, Lena has either kissed Holly once previously and masturbated to her once, or masturbated to her twice, and she's in a relationship with Ian. If Lena feels that this is a dishonest position to occupy before getting involved with Holly then this is something the story needs to establish.
Not allowing the kiss option, or just any alternative option, at the point of the story where other lena_go_holly players can get to kiss her seems to run counter to the established games design, that suddenly despite clearly desiring Holly you are not allowed the choice without proper explanation.

In addition to that, when you watch the scene in the alpha the dialog between Holly and Lena makes reference to the fact that Lena and Ian are dating, so that implies to me that Eva was potentially intending to set things up for the reverse confrontation scene where Ian questions Lena. The change implemented with the beta to address IanxHolly though now just blocks LenaxHolly while not providing any context as to why.

 

[21ohiokid]

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[Deleted member 563623]

Greyed-out dialogues should be turned invisible by default. Showing you which content you will miss out on decreases the number of unexpected scenes and routes you will find on a second or third playthrough.

Absolutely not. It's extremely helpful to have in game indications when content is locked.

 

[Reasoon]

I kind of hope that there will be other entry Points for certain Routes you can't really open now because you have to choose some time later in the Game.
Chapter 8 kind of did that with

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But for Ian there is still the choice between Cindy/Holly and I also think Alison/Emma right? Espescially the Cindy/Holly decision is really hard for me so I hope something happens there

 

[Sherka]

I can't help but notice how Eva is giving Louis and Stan the same treatment as Monica and Bernard (Ash's parents from GGGB).

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[BlandChili]

I can't help but notice how Eva is giving Louis and Stan the same treatment as Monica and Bernard (Ash's parents from GGGB).

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Man, that image of Stan is fucking nightmare fuel, his face looks like a clown-ghost from an Italian opera.